Spell-like Wishes

[Alleran]

This occurred to me when reading the Pathfinder thread about casters still breaking the game, and the note on Wish economy.

There are, of course, ways to get effectively unlimited wishes (chain-gating Efreeti being the biggest one, as well as shapechanging into Zodars for a supernatural Wish, or Planar Shepherds turning into Efreeti and granting wishes to the party, or Ur-Priests snitching wish SLAs). Still, those wishes are limited by the ability of the DM to abuse loopholes and other built-in holes in the spell.

If a monster/NPC were to possess an at-will Wish spell-like ability (or supernatural ability), how many points would you bump up its CR? Bearing in mind that CR is somewhat flawed as-is, especially at higher levels.

Additionally, if a PC gained access to it, how much would their own power increase? If the SLA retained the XP cost, how much of a difference would that make? At-will wish would become a lot less enticing if you had to pony up 5,000 XP every time you used it, after all.

[Urpriest]

Wish at-will is one of the more meaningful parts of being a deity, and deities don't have CRs. Instead, the amount of XP given by deities scales up with PC level so that it is always a fixed fraction of a level. This makes sense, since they present a challenge that is less directly number-based and more puzzle-based. I'd advise the same policy for an at-will Wish monster.

[Riverdance]

How would any character or party defeat a creature with at-will Wish? As Ur-priest said, it would effectively be a god.

[sreservoir]

How would any character or party defeat a creature with at-will Wish? As Ur-priest said, it would effectively be a god.

faster wishing.

basis of the wish economy, more or less.

[tyckspoon]

The biggest problem with spell-like/supernatural Wishes is being able to generate any arbitrary magic item, regardless of the cost (+1000 Sword? Yeah, why not.) If you make that impossible, then Wish at will is..merely insanely powerful (it gives you at-will spontaneous casting of like 85% of the spells in the game) but it's at least ... well, I don't quite want to say 'manageable', but possible to think about?

[Urpriest]

The biggest problem with spell-like/supernatural Wishes is being able to generate any arbitrary magic item, regardless of the cost (+1000 Sword? Yeah, why not.) If you make that impossible, then Wish at will is..merely insanely powerful (it gives you at-will spontaneous casting of like 85% of the spells in the game) but it's at least ... well, I don't quite want to say 'manageable', but possible to think about?

It's not impossible to defeat, but I do think that it screws with the CR system enough that it really is better conceived of as a puzzle than as an enemy. In particular, be aware that this guy can have a massive buff list up pretty consistently, granting immunity to essentially everything.

[Ancient Mage]

In Star Trek: The Next Generation, there was a seemingly omnipotent entity known only as "Q." Q was a power-house who demonstrated the ability to alter reality whenever he wanted to, could change form, teleport, and essentially do whatever he felt like doing. However, Q could not accurately predict the future, was once punched in the face because he didn't expect it, and had a hard time battling creatures of high power.
This is pretty much what a creature capable of at-will wishing would be like. A tough fight, but for 20th-Epic level PC's, they might be able to do something against it.

-Ancient Mage

[sreservoir]

In Star Trek: The Next Generation, there was a seemingly omnipotent entity known only as "Q." Q was a power-house who demonstrated the ability to alter reality whenever he wanted to, could change form, teleport, and essentially do whatever he felt like doing. However, Q could not accurately predict the future, was once punched in the face because he didn't expect it, and had a hard time battling creatures of high power.
This is pretty much what a creature capable of at-will wishing would be like. A tough fight, but for 20th-Epic level PC's, they might be able to do something against it.

-Ancient Mage

although do note divinations exist and being a god gets ((slightly) limited) future knowledge.

[Vaz]

One 8th level spell a turn able to shut down a party of 4-5 Level 20 charaxters fully optimized?

The action economy will hurt it as much as 4-5 L20's. It has still got to get all those Wishes off.

Not to mention you could use Gate+Simulacrum+Fusion to get exactly the same ability.

[Urpriest]

One 8th level spell a turn able to shut down a party of 4-5 Level 20 charaxters fully optimized?

The action economy will hurt it as much as 4-5 L20's. It has still got to get all those Wishes off.

Not to mention you could use Gate+Simulacrum+Fusion to get exactly the same ability.

It's not one 8th level spell a turn, though. Body Outside Body is only 7th level. This guy will have enough buffs up to abuse the action economy like nobody's business.

[Vaz]

Hmmm. Do the clones benefit from spells already in place on the caster? As in casting say Shapechange and follow up with BOB, are the clknes affected by Shapechange?

But there is nothing to stop you doing the same; Gate+Simulacrum+Fusion with a Solar. DR15/Epic Evil, Wish, 20th Level Cleric Spellcasting; they can then take Innate Spell Miracle, and off they go with 4/day wish/miracle effects, bringing in BOB, Giant Size, Greater Visage, and Divine Power.

Edit; Even on Body Outside Body, unless they have access to True Seeing, even simple Greater Invisibility defeats them. Sure they can at will Wish it into effect, but with 1/4 HP, even a Solar's 200 or so is 50 Damage. If you can't deal 65+ Damage by 20th level with at least 2 characters, I'm sure something is going wrong.