OOTS #826 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 06:07 PM

The Elf Commander wasn't a "Hero" He was a military commander. A soldier. In a tenuous position in a overrun city conducting operations primarily by stealth / guerilla tactics. He is in a 'war' and can't afford any of the things people are suggesting (actually he could, but I'm just trying to point out his very reasonable conduct for his role and situation).

Overlooking the point that I LOVED the hobgoblin execution scene "I suggest a spatula... ...elves are awesome" it was an entirely reasonable response for that character.

I fail to see:

1) How raiding an enemy prison to free it's captives and killing one of the captives because you don't like his species, is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation" of a stealth/guerrilla operation.

2) How executing a captive after the fight is over, you are in control of the field, and can totally afford to carry him to your base (not to mention that said captive was not a member of the enemy fighting force to begin with), is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation".

3) Even in the event that you must execute someone, I fail to see how reviling in the action, giving the poor guy false hope, making fun of it, and justifying it with pure racist arguments, is the dire-but-neccessary thing to do as opposite of a quick and neat throat-cutting.

Finally:

4) Note that the Elf Commander never justified his action with a "we need to kill him because we can't carry him with us as he MAY be a spy". He justified his action with a "he's a goblin and thus only good for being killed".

and

5) Please realize that you may have loved that murdering scene as much as you like, but it's narrative purpose was to serve as the setup for today's Elf Implosion scene.

...

Anyway, this thread is getting too close to the "is X morally justified?" thing. So excuse me if I step out of this particular debate, and avoid to touch it again, not even with a 10-foot-pole.

toughluck

2012-01-10, 06:14 PM

Before making the comment, I'm just thinking if elf-haters here aren't confusing two entirely different things. Rich described a campaign he ran for some players -- the one against the Red Wizard -- in which the elves are described as untrustworthy and generally viewed with much contempt.
OotS world is NOT the same world as that one. The Elf Commander was a weary, callous soldier and his actions, while not barely justified (and certainly not good), were not examples of specieism -- if anything, he was making snide and cynical remarks on goblins.
Frankly, to think otherwise leads to a sliding scale -- tell an off-color or racist joke and you should be fined for hate speech and thrown in jail for potential genocide.
That's not how things work.

Depends on how many humans that were not part of the Resistance as such are left within the city walls, really. If most of the 200,000+ humans that couldn't evacuate were enslaved, then their passive resistance (work slowdown, sabotage, etc.) on a massive scale might have some impact on Gobbotopia's economy. If most of the humans were killed and only a small portion of the original population remains alive and enslaved, then whatever they do is just as pointless as the actions of the Resistance itself.

Except goblins would have no qualms killing off the lazy ones as an example to others. I'm itching to draw real-life comparisons, but suffice to say fear is an excellent motivator.

Exactly what I was thinking. Not to mention Right-Eye's family who was slaughtered. Something tells me it won't happen, though--if it did, it would likely be the end of Redcloak's story. Either because he's won and wants to make everything better, or because he's given up on The Plan and wants to live a normal life.
Hmmm... I wonder how many 25k gp worth of diamonds Redcloak has... The requirement still holds, and the diamonds are not as common as sand here or there.

The best part of this comic was how subtly foreshadowed it was. Looking back to comic 707, there's a bald human who doesn't seem very happy about being freed. Looks like he grew some hair since then.

*Kicks self for not noticing earlier*
He's confused about the hobgoblin speaking up and looks surprised that there's somebody speaking up.

Gobbotopia is the first step towards goblin equality, and it would be a shame to see it fall. Goblins have a level playing field now, they have an opportunity to prosper. The hard part would be convincing the Azurites it would be better to rebuild rather than reconquer.
Again, I'd love to draw real-life analogies, but apparently Azure City lands were never goblin to justify their invasion of AC as some reconquest. No, AC has all the rights to that place and not reconquering would justify the goblin conquest all the more, and would prove that might makes right.
Besides, if that were the reality there, then if Azurites were mightier, they could just reconquer the city -- after all, might makes right.

About the elf killing the hobgoblin prisoner: It seems like a mostly neutral act. He was a criminal (he was sent to jail for a reason, remember?), and he would probably betray them. The best course of action would have been to send him back to his cell, but that would have wasted time and jeopardised the mission. Why aren't people more concerned about the completely innocent hobgoblin couple that was shot down off panel just for getting in the way? (strip 708 panel 3) I'm not glad the elf died, but better him than Thanh or Niu.
Let witnesses live, you'll die all the sooner.

I've read through some of the pages of comments, but not all of them. That said, I haven't seen anyone put forward this possibility yet:

The Resistance was NOT caught by surprise by the polymorphed goblin spy. They were keeping an eye on him - better to keep the spy you know about than to kill him and have another one sent in where you don't know. All these paladins have Detect Evil - I'm sure someone noticed that this guy has some evil mojo going on. Besides, his gloating nearly ensures that he'll get nailed.

So, behind him comes another of the resistance paladins, beheads the polymorphed spy and retakes the phylactery. He knows he can't take on the Pit Fiend/Horned Devil/whatever, and so he destroys the phylactery even as the Devil eats him!

Smite Evil on the phylactery, damaging but not destroying!
Get sliced to 1 hp by the Devil.
Desperate last chance: Critical Hit Smite Evil on Phylactery!
Dies to the Devil while Xykon screams "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

Good guys have a moment of awesome. Bad guys are set back but not stopped.
Emphasis mine. Why do people think there are more paladins in the Resistance than just Thanh? The three fractions united solely because they found one single paladin. In fact, they were exceedingly rare even when AC existed, and most of them died in the battle for AC.

One thing which does light a glimmer of hope is that the only two characters named are Niu and Thanh, and they don't get along. In fact, all other characters apparently consciously avoid using names when addressing themselves, instead saying 'commander', 'lieutenant', or 'wizard'.

I'm looking forward to the hilarity that'll ensue when Thanh and Niu escape (with the phylactery, one hopes?) and have to settle their differences along the way :)

Azukar

2012-01-10, 06:20 PM

For the benefit of anyone who is still wondering about Niu, the dead soldier in panel 8 is very likely the same woman as in the bottom of strip #825. Whatever Niu is up to, that's not her.

toughluck

2012-01-10, 06:22 PM

I fail to see:

1) How raiding an enemy prison to free it's captives and killing one of the captives because you don't like his species, is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation" of a stealth/guerrilla operation.
You assume he was planted as a spy -- an entirely reasonable expectation, given how easily they were infiltrated anyway.

2) How executing a captive after the fight is over, you are in control of the field, and can totally afford to carry him to your base (not to mention that said captive was not a member of the enemy fighting force to begin with), is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation".
This cracks me up -- seriously, in a world where magic reigns supreme you would expect a planted mole to not be scryed on constantly? You're deluding yourself. And they didn't know how long it would be until the next shift comes to resume the work, or how much time until a patrol randomly wanders in.

3) Even in the event that you must execute someone, I fail to see how reviling in the action, giving the poor guy false hope, making fun of it, and justifying it with pure racist arguments, is the dire-but-neccessary thing to do as opposite of a quick and neat throat-cutting.

Finally:

4) Note that the Elf Commander never justified his action with a "we need to kill him because we can't carry him with us as he MAY be a spy". He justified his action with a "he's a goblin and thus only good for being killed".

and

5) Please realize that you may have loved that murdering scene as much as you like, but it's narrative purpose was to serve as the setup for today's Elf Implosion scene.

He was cynical, ironic, sarcastic, pick any of the three. Sheesh, do you take every single word uttered by the characters as gospel? Have you heard of gallows humor? It's a perfect example -- okay, so it might not be dignified, but why accuse him of racism/specieism?

What would that make rangers, with their favored enemy trait, anyway? A prime example of racists, wouldn't it?

I still think much of the elf hate comes from the confusion over the articles that Rich published here -- by the way, I find 'The New World' and the descriptions really great gaming material, and I'm sure to use them when I run a game...

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 06:40 PM

You assume he was planted as a spy -- an entirely reasonable expectation, given how easily they were infiltrated anyway.

I assume nothing.

This cracks me up -- seriously, in a world where magic reigns supreme you would expect a planted mole to not be scryed on constantly? You're deluding yourself. And they didn't know how long it would be until the next shift comes to resume the work, or how much time until a patrol randomly wanders in.

The hobbo couldn't not be scryed on - Clositer effect, remember? And, beyond morals, the practical benefits of taking him prisoner (interrogation, mindwipe, possible release to act as an enemy spy who would be much more efficient and secure than a polymorphed elf) overshadows the inconveniences.

About the "how much time until a patrol randomly wanders in"... apparently enough to escort out more than a hundred released prisoners. In fact, halting the operation to execute the Hobbo is an unnecessary delay in regards to that argument.

He was cynical, ironic, sarcastic, pick any of the three. Sheesh, do you take every single word uttered by the characters as gospel? Have you heard of gallows humor? It's a perfect example -- okay, so it might not be dignified, but why accuse him of racism/specieism?

"The only good [insert race here] is a dead [insert race here]" is perhaps the most crystalline example of a racist/specism joke.

What does that make rangers, with their favored enemy trait, anyway? A prime example of racists, doesn't it?

Favored Enemy means the Ranger has studied that type of creature and trained in techniques to specifically fight it. At no point in the description of the Ranger class does it say that the Ranger must hate said type of creature, or needs to have racial prejudices against it.

I still think much of the elf hate comes from the confusion over the articles that Rich published here

Which I have not read.

FatJose

2012-01-10, 06:41 PM

I'm looking forward to the hilarity that'll ensue when Thanh and Niu escape (with the phylactery, one hopes?) and have to settle their differences along the way :)

Or they'll die. Possibly settle their differences with acknowledged respect as their enemies close in....

I really really hope that isn't the case, though.

Thanh's stache is too awesome. It was bad enough with the Police Chief. I don't think my heart could take another loss like that.

Favored Enemy means the Ranger has studied that type of creature and trained in techniques to specifically fight it. At no point in the description of the Ranger class does it say that the Ranger must hate said type of creature, or needs to have racial prejudices against it.
I was going to make a joke about having an irrational hatred of all woodland creatures but, isn't it considered Evil to take Humans as a favored enemy? Maybe that's a specific setting rule. Not sure where I read it.

Kish

2012-01-10, 06:41 PM

He was cynical, ironic, sarcastic, pick any of the three. Sheesh, do you take every single word uttered by the characters as gospel? Have you heard of gallows humor? It's a perfect example -- okay, so it might not be dignified, but why accuse him of racism/specieism?

Because his tag line was "good goblins are dead goblins."

His lieutenant knew it was his tag line before he said it in that strip, so yes, it really is his tag line.

The question is not, "Why accuse him of racism/speciesism?" The question is, "Why argue with the clearly observable fact that he was a racist/speciesist?"

What would that make rangers, with their favored enemy trait, anyway? A prime example of racists, wouldn't it?

If rangers were expected to hate their favored enemies--instead of choosing species to gain various bonuses against, including Sense Motive, which can easily include the ranger's own species--then yes. What's your point? People wave that around as though "rangers have favored enemies" would mean "racism isn't wrong" with any fewer claims than just the ones encapsulated in "racism isn't wrong."

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 06:43 PM

I still think much of the elf hate comes from the confusion over the articles that Rich published here -- by the way, I find 'The New World' and the descriptions really great gaming material, and I'm sure to use them when I run a game...
Elf hate predates this website by decades...

TheBST

2012-01-10, 07:14 PM

An OotS character who thought that goblins, humans and elves were equally intelligent, strong and likely to be good or evil would not be fair-minded. Rather, they would be objectively incorrect.

Uh, why aren't they equally likely to be good or evil? Don't they have free will?

Subzero008

2012-01-10, 07:16 PM

In regards to the elf commander's behavior; the only behavior he gave was fantastic racism. We can argue all we want about why and if he deserved it or not, but we will (now)never know what ran through his head when he killed that hobbo. Did he gamble the odds of it being a plant, or did he simply take the Evil option?

In my own opinion, I mourn the elven commander's death, not for his character, but as the loss of another ally.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 07:19 PM

I was going to make a joke about having an irrational hatred of all woodland creatures but, isn't it considered Evil to take Humans as a favored enemy? Maybe that's a specific setting rule. Not sure where I read it.

The evil alignment was a restriction in 3.0. But it was not applied to taking humans as favored enemies. It was applied to taking your character's own species as Favored Enemy.

ie: An human ranger could only take humans as favored enemy if he was Evil. An elf ranger could only take elves as favored enemy if he was Evil. But an elven ranger could take humans as favored enemies with no alignment restriction.

In 3.5 that requeriment was eliminated and a ranger could take his own species as favored enemy without alignment restrictions. (To reinforce the point, the Table of Ranger Favored Enemies features "humanoid (humans)" with no special comment on it).

Kish

2012-01-10, 07:20 PM

Uh, why aren't they equally likely to be good or evil? Don't they have free will?
That's generally up to the DM. I prefer "culture"; there are plenty of examples of real-world cultures which encourage people who grow up under them to be something other than True Neutral (though going into details would likely violate the no-politics rule here). Various other people on this board prefer "irresistible instinct which also turns Often and Usually into Always."

TheBST

2012-01-10, 07:26 PM

That's generally up to the DM. I prefer "culture"; there are plenty of examples of real-world cultures which encourage people who grow up under them to be something other than True Neutral

Various other people on this board prefer "irresistible instinct which also turns Often and Usually into Always."

Fair enough, but in the first case what are the chances of a mono-cultural species? Always irked me when fantasy writers do that.

And in the second case, then that sounds like a species-wide mental disability- again a bit weird. With a species like that, with members that can't control their actions, wouldn't you feel pity for them rather then hatred?

t209

2012-01-10, 07:28 PM

I wonder how this arc would end.
1. Deus Ex Machinma (a new army came in rescue the resistance (and probably resurrect the dead guy at the last panel)
2. Downer Ending
Everyone was about to be executed while singing "Bright Side of Life"
3. New Beginning
The beginning of Skyrim where they were shipped off with a group of Nomadic Rebels

LordofNaught

2012-01-10, 07:36 PM

Despite that, my biggest takeaway from this comic was "hmm, well I guess he's 17th level now." That's really really scary. Implosion is powerful, but in terms of affecting the story, that's potentially small potatoes compared to Redcloak casting Miracle or Gate as ways for the Dark One to intercede directly in the world's affairs.

That is a very disturbing thought. It's very likely that Redcloak is the only Cleric in the world at the moment who can cast either one of those spells, with the possible exception of Malack. If the Dark One can intervene now through those spells, especially Miracle, plus the fact it takes one action to cast the spell, this makes it pretty much impossible for the Order to win. That is unless, Giant willing, Malack is capable of casting the same spells, or Durkon learns them. Either way, the Order and possibly the world is screwed.

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 07:38 PM

Fair enough, but in the first case what are the chances of a mono-cultural species? Always irked me when fantasy writers do that.

Depends on how spread out the species is. Something that only lives on Australia is more likely to have a single culture than an Africa+Eurasia spanning species.

And in the second case, then that sounds like a species-wide mental disability- again a bit weird. With a species like that, with members that can't control their actions, wouldn't you feel pity for them rather then hatred?

Well less so, because IIRC the "Always Evil" species were usual things infused with actual Elemental Evil that litterally could not choose to not be evil, like Devils and Demons.

Blaznak

2012-01-10, 08:02 PM

Well, that was a bit of smackdown!

t209

2012-01-10, 08:08 PM

Well, that was a bit of smackdown!

I agree
Either a downer ending or Deux Ex Machinma.
Downer ending could be when
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

Xorbon

2012-01-10, 08:10 PM

So that leaves 4 humans and an elf. With them being so seriously outnumbered and Redcloak imploding people at will, they're pretty much toast. :smallfrown:

Their only hope is a deus ex machina!

KyrtFurey

2012-01-10, 08:10 PM

Well, that . . . wasn't very much fun to read.

Am I the only one who's starting to get depressed by the Team Evil/Azure City part of the comic? It's feeling as though everything the non-OotS good guys do is just pointless.

Which is why the OotS are the heroes.

Seriously....I'm kinda rooting for the Goblins here. Yes, they are evil and and and do nasty things.

When you get down to it...they're doing to the Azurites what the Azurites did to them.

As it is, RC needed to put down the resistance before he left and now he has done so. The phylactety needed to be found and in Team Evils hands...now it is. The surviving Azurites have a new home on a new continent...they are unlikely to be in a position to reclaim the city and land for years...all of which removes most of the need to actually pay a visit here. Azure City, as a background for a story, has ceased to be relevant.

The good guys lost. But in so doing, they provdied something few tales have....competent, powerful bad guys who are believeable within the context of the story.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 08:14 PM

Which is why the OotS are the heroes.
But everything the OOTS do, or at least everything they've done so far, is/has been pointless too. Xykon wouldn't have been able to bypass Dorukan's sigils without Elan. Azure City could have defended itself better without the OOTS screwing up the political situation. Nale, and thus Tarquin, would never have learned about the Gates if not for the OOTS. The IFCC couldn't advance their plans, whatever they are, without the OOTS.

The OOTS may be the protagonists, but they're astonishingly poor heroes.

t209

2012-01-10, 08:23 PM

But everything the OOTS do, or at least everything they've done so far, is/has been pointless too. Xykon wouldn't have been able to bypass Dorukan's sigils without Elan. Azure City could have defended itself better without the OOTS screwing up the political situation. Nale, and thus Tarquin, would never have learned about the Gates if not for the OOTS. The IFCC couldn't advance their plans, whatever they are, without the OOTS.

The OOTS may be the protagonists, but they're astonishingly poor heroes.

About OOTS and Azure City politics, blame it on Miko (who destroy the gate and kill shojo) and Shojo (if he send Hinjo to OOTS, Azure City could be saved).
P.S- How about putting the idea of how having moral ambiguity to fight evil (like backstabbing an new ally to take back Azure City and appease the nobles)

LtNOWIS

2012-01-10, 08:24 PM

Uh, why aren't they equally likely to be good or evil? Don't they have free will?
Elves (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elf) are usually chaotic good, Goblins (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Goblin) are usually neutral evil, hobgoblins are usually lawful evil.

This was shown in 0511 (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html).

2) How executing a captive after the fight is over, you are in control of the field, and can totally afford to carry him to your base (not to mention that said captive was not a member of the enemy fighting force to begin with), is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation".

If a soldier roughs up some people and has to spend some time in jail, his overall allegiance isn't invalidated. And it was a raid, so they didn't really control the field.

Every hobgoblin in Azure City is a member of the invading force.

I would agree that the elven commander is quite possibly a jerk and a bad person, but using that as a basis to hate all elves doesn't make any sense.

Azure City could have defended itself better without the OOTS screwing up the political situation. Nale, and thus Tarquin, would never have learned about the Gates if not for the OOTS.

Well, I suppose we can blame Shojo and Eugene for the fact that the Order got drug against their will to Azure City.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 08:29 PM

I would agree that the elven commander is quite possibly a jerk and a bad person, but using that as a basis to hate all elves doesn't make any sense.
Elf-hate predates this website by several decades.

Well, I suppose we can blame Shojo and Eugene for the fact that the Order got drug against their will to Azure City.
Sure, you can pass the blame as far back as you want. Blame Sangwaan for detecting, and then reporting to Shojo, that Dorukan's Gate was destroyed. Blame the Order of the Scribble for setting up the notification system, or for splitting up on such bad terms that the system was necessary in the first place. Blame the gods for making a shoddy reality. The fact remains that if the OOTS wasn't working with Shojo - and Roy did make the decision to work with Shojo and hide that he was doing so, and what he was doing, from the Sapphire Guard - Azure City's political situation wouldn't have fallen apart when and how it did and it could have rallied to defend itself better than it did.

Matuse

2012-01-10, 08:30 PM

As I understand it, the Paladin rules of engagement allow them to kill any evil creature on sight

Then you do not understand it. Any Paladin who attacks people who ping evil, but haven't actually DONE anything, would be visited by lightning bolts from above.

An evil person who is a complete coward and will never act on his evil beliefs is just as much an innocent as a neutral or good character. Murdering that person for no reason other than your mental radar is an evil act. In any campaign I've been in, the punishment would go beyond merely the loss of being a paladin, but the dispatch of a divine messenger to collect the offender's head.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 08:32 PM

An evil person who is a complete coward and will never act on his evil beliefs is just as much an innocent as a neutral or good character.
Would a person who holds evil beliefs (what is an evil belief?) but does no evil even ping on the evilometer? Feeling evil impulses and then not following through on them thanks to your own inhibitions does not an evil person make.

Subzero008

2012-01-10, 08:40 PM

When you get down to it...they're doing to the Azurites what the Azurites did to them.

What did the Azurites, most of which have never seen a goblin in their lives, do to deserve being slaughtered and enslaved?

In fact, the hobbos are even more evil when you realize that they've never seen an Azurite either. They don't question killing the innocent, they just do what RC tells them to, which includes genocide, according to Elan.

Aaron

2012-01-10, 08:44 PM

And so the Azure City resistance falls. :smallfrown: Nuuuuuuuu!

dragongirl13

2012-01-10, 08:49 PM

Ah, the Implosion spell! That is awesome. Nasty, but awesome. Interesting to see how people folding in on themselves is represented in the comic, too.

Not good for the Resistance, though.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 08:50 PM

In fact, the hobbos are even more evil when you realize that they've never seen an Azurite either. They don't question killing the innocent, they just do what RC tells them to, which includes genocide, according to Elan.
Are you talking about this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html)? Because nowhere does Elan predict a genocide. I do think a genocide took place after the battle of Azure City, but Elan doesn't give any evidence one way or the other.

KyrtFurey

2012-01-10, 08:53 PM

In my opinion Redcloak has gone the Forsworn route, when the potential for a less violent form of settlement is possible, meanwhile the Elf commander was flawed but still basically an ally.

I'd have to disagree with that last part...Goblins are walking stacks of XP as far as this world is concerned. They are literally there to be killed.

KyrtFurey

2012-01-10, 08:56 PM

What did the Azurites, most of which have never seen a goblin in their lives, do to deserve being slaughtered and enslaved?

Support a military who engaged in pre emptive genocidal campaign against goblinoids everywhere, most of which had no knowledge of the gates, and few who would have ever seen an Azurite

sims796

2012-01-10, 09:14 PM

Even I'm baffled at the level of hate the commander is getting. This is war. With Hobgoblins. In what is now their home turf. What the flying frick were people expecting him to do with them? A Hobbo prisoner was found among the prisoners they were out to rescue.

Since we are at war with this race -again, on their home turf - he was entirely justified to execute him. It was ruthless, it was cold, and sure, he's prejudice against gobbos. No argument there. But why must he take the moral high ground? The hobbo could have been a planted double-agent, he could have turned on them at any moment, or he could have done the popular method, decide to change his mind, while using resistance info to curry favor. Most importantly, chances are, if the scene was reversed, the gobbo would have definitely killed him in the same way.

Doug Lampert

2012-01-10, 09:20 PM

Would a person who holds evil beliefs (what is an evil belief?) but does no evil even ping on the evilometer? Feeling evil impulses and then not following through on them thanks to your own inhibitions does not an evil person make.

Evil does not require any actions at all. Proven in the rules by the fact that chromatic dragons ping evil at birth.

All alignments are about attitudes. (Also in the rules.)

Having evil impulses and resisting because they are evil or doing whatever would be wrong makes you non-evil. Having evil impulses and resisting solely because you might be caught and punished makes you an evil coward. It's unlikely that such a character could go through life without EVER doing ANYTHING wrong, he won't constantly be worried and not all evil acts are harshly punished, but he could easily avoid committing any capital crimes precisely BECAUSE the seriously punished offenses are the ones he's too cowardly to commit.

And since no one is perfect you don't get to kill for minor offenses. Which means that the evil coward gets off.

Additionally: Paladin and other detect evil is far from foolproof. Read the spell. It NEVER TELLS YOU ANYONE'S ALIGNMENT! It tells you what alignment auras are present where and in what strength. And there are harmless spells like protection from good which may be cast on a character and will ping as evil at his location. Note in comic that Roy pinged as evil on first encounter with Miko.

Incom

2012-01-10, 09:33 PM

Look at Thanh's position in the last panel he's in. Looks like he might be following the spy?

ExuroCastellum

2012-01-10, 09:34 PM

Just some thoughts i had scanning and reading:
1. RC and his levels: i dont understand the discussion and disagreements here. Giant's the DM, Giant decides who gets what xp for what actions
2. I am a lil put off by the OOTS being the main characters but having low impact on plot-resolution, and are increasingly (seemingly) unlikely to be saving-the day in a believable way, but i hadn't noticed anyone mentioning the fact there are still LOTS of other forces that can stop the bad-guys in time: Draketooth, the halfling chick, RC deciding he is REAL tired of Xykon's indiscriminate (insofar as if it doesnt directly benefit him) killing/willful inaction towards goblinoid welfare. MitD defecting via O-chul's pure awesomeness, and since hes probably (IMO) The Tarrasque (what else is nigh-invincible and CONSTANTLY hungry and TrueNeut-being existing to devour?) it might push the tide in favor of the good-guys. Then there is the IFCC who may have any number of their own goals, that i think reality remaining extant is a base requirement of any of their potential goals to come to fruition, and may even include seizing power/stopping Xycon. AFter all, whats the point of being Ultimate Evil if a smart-alek, uppity skeleton is able to seize limitless power for himself? Come what may, seeing as Giant was absolutely ARTFUL, MASTERFUL, and GREAT at finding a completely logical and believable way to begin reforming the Belkster, i do believe he's got this.

another point of bother for me? villains leveling up all over the place, and OOTS members are getting these strings of like 2 or 3 negative levels in a row 0.0

On the Implosion controversy: maybe it is outside target audience threshold, but im sorry, i didnt know Implosion is SUPPOSED to mean "Btw it isnt a grisly bloody mess, in fact whenever anybody gets hurt in a major way rainbows spew out. also those arent swords piercing you, those are bunnies on sticks. Turns out war ain't nice XD chilling though:eek: glad to see the war for the fate of reality itself is surrious (not serious, surrious.) business.

and alas, my cynical closing point: whoever said the good-guys HAVE/are going to win anyways? I enjoy the occasional "hey, real (unreal) life ain't fair, sometimes bad-things happen" story. shakespearian tragedy is also a dramatic form, so Elan's Law is valid.

Edit: yes i am aware my name is horribly, horribly, mangled faux-latin. and my keyboardmanship is terrible XD

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 09:34 PM

Evil does not require any actions at all. Proven in the rules by the fact that chromatic dragons ping evil at birth.
And zombies ping evil despite being mindless and having no intentions at all. Apparently evil by RAW requires neither action nor intention. Which makes RAW a rather poor judge of character, no?

All alignments are about attitudes. (Also in the rules.)
What is in the rules is that alignments imply attitudes. They are dependant upon actions undertaken. Good imples altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make (a verb) personal sacrifices to help others.

Having evil impulses and resisting because they are evil or doing whatever would be wrong makes you non-evil. Having evil impulses and resisting solely because you might be caught and punished makes you an evil coward. It's unlikely that such a character could go through life without EVER doing ANYTHING wrong, he won't constantly be worried and not all evil acts are harshly punished, but he could easily avoid committing any capital crimes precisely BECAUSE the seriously punished offenses are the ones he's too cowardly to commit.

And since no one is perfect you don't get to kill for minor offenses. Which means that the evil coward gets off.
Again, if you don't do anything wrong, just how evil are you, really? Do you sin by thinking, or by doing? If you sin by thinking, why cannot a Paladin justly punish thoughts? Is it because thoughts really do matter less than actions? If so, we're back to actions determining alignment.

Additionally: Paladin and other detect evil is far from foolproof. Read the spell. It NEVER TELLS YOU ANYONE'S ALIGNMENT! It tells you what alignment auras are present where and in what strength. And there are harmless spells like protection from good which may be cast on a character and will ping as evil at his location. Note in comic that Roy pinged as evil on first encounter with Miko.
Not arguing for detect-and-smite here. I'm arguing that you're setting an awfully low standard for determining who is evil enough to detect as such. Thinking evil thoughts, feeling evil impulses (these remain undefined) does not an evil person make.

another point of bother for me? villains leveling up all over the place, and OOTS members are getting these strings of like 2 or 3 negative levels in a row 0.0
Durkon healed the negative levels before the OOTS went swanning off to Windy Canyon.

and alas, my cynical closing point: whoever said the good-guys HAVE/are going to win anyways? I enjoy the occasional "hey, real (unreal) life ain't fair, sometimes bad-things happen" story. shakespearian tragedy is also a dramatic form, so Elan's Law is valid.
The Oracle said Elan would get a happy ending. And apparently there's commentary in one of the books that says this isn't a bait-and-switch.

Julian84

2012-01-10, 09:36 PM

Wow... That was... Wow.

Good job, Giant, this is officially the darkest strip I've seen yet. While I hope Thanh and Niu survive, I doubt they have the sufficient plot armor necessary. :smallfrown:

Also, implosion scared the crap out of me :smalleek:

Edit: Also, it would've been cool to see Redcloak casually walk into the middle of the resistance, watch their terrified reactions, and then start summoning all sorts of baddies to kill them.

KyrtFurey

2012-01-10, 09:38 PM

With the "Who was Redcloak talking to?" question solved

Can't recall this debate...anyone want to remind me?

Lord Hakura

2012-01-10, 09:44 PM

One elf being a extreme speciesist and a jerk along with another commiting an evil act and regretting it afterwards does not make the whole race evil. I highly doubt the rest of the elven party was evil and were more likely just obeying orders from a higher level character. All this elf hate baffles me. Likely the commander deservedwhat he got, but one bad elf does not = elves are evil. You may as well say all humans are evil because nale and tarquin are evil.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 09:45 PM

Cerebrilith

2012-01-10, 09:51 PM

I've loved OOTs for years, but I'm about ready to quit. It feels like there no point if the hero's (flawed as they may be) cant seem to get any traction. I get that the villain need to be threatening for a good story, and that it's always darkest before the dawn, but I'd never play in a D&D campaign like this. A few too many 'sympathetic' mass murderers for my taste.

Aren't heroes/PCs supposed to be there to STOP that kind of thing?

Lord Hakura

2012-01-10, 09:53 PM

Would it be possible for someone to either show an explanation of why there is all this elf hate or to provide a link to an explanation?

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 09:54 PM

Aren't heroes/PCs supposed to be there to STOP that kind of thing?
Yes. And they were. But then they ran away.

One Skunk Todd

2012-01-10, 10:03 PM

Poor Elf Commander. His true failure was not carefully vetting new resistance recruits. Props to him though for going toe-to-toe with Redcloak in hopes of delaying him. I wonder what the hobbos did to him that he hated them so.

If Thanh is still alive perhaps he can get the phylactery into the rift.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 10:08 PM

I wonder what the hobbos did to him that he hated them so.
It matters very little. He mattered very little. It's why he got less than twenty lines of dialogue.

In all seriousness, the Commander's not going to get anything resembling a sympathetic treatment. Unlike Redcloak, whose sins are of greater magnitude, he isn't important enough to merit the Giant spending time and effort recounting his backstory. Plus everyone who could have told it to us is dead now.

If Thanh is still alive perhaps he can get the phylactery into the rift.
Thanh's nowhere near the phylactery, and there's three or four devils between him and it. He also said he'd stay behind and as a paladin he'd keep his word, so he probably doesn't even know what happened down in the tunnel. Ain't no way he's pulling that off. I'd bet real fake money. :smallbiggrin:

t209

2012-01-10, 10:17 PM

And so the Azure City resistance falls. :smallfrown: Nuuuuuuuu!

Until Thanh orders the remains of the resistance in the cave to smash across the demons to escape.
OR second wave of commandoes came along.
P.S- That elf commander is like leeroy jenkins, letting his rage to consume his common sense.

Sky_Schemer

2012-01-10, 10:20 PM

As in any great adventure story, the bad guys die, and the good guys die horribly.

(Until the end, then everyone dies horribly)

Whiffet

2012-01-10, 10:21 PM

hes probably (IMO) The Tarrasque (what else is nigh-invincible and CONSTANTLY hungry and TrueNeut-being existing to devour?)

There's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189676) dedicated to trying to figure out MitD. You may want to read it.

DarkEricDraven

2012-01-10, 10:29 PM

...Dude. That...was brutal. :smalleek:

Goosefeather

2012-01-10, 11:09 PM

Question. Although the reverse isn't possible, can one teleport from inside the cloistered area to a point outside it? And if so, is there any reason why the teleporty-wizard-elf wasn't part of the group that stole the phylactery in the first place, ready to whisk it away asap? :smallconfused:

It seems slightly lax on the part of the Resistance, given how much depends on this artifact. They couldn't know Redcloak would ambush them, obviously, but nor should they be taking any chances.

And for those complaining about the supposed 'good guys can't catch a break' nature of the current strips, I suggest you go read some 'Song of Ice and Fire'. Seriously, having just finished the 5th in the series, OotS feels like sunshine and puppies and lollipops in comparison! :smalltongue:

Drak'rrth

2012-01-10, 11:17 PM

Okay... seriously, yuck. I'm never going to look at ANY form of an implosion spell the same way again.

Having said that, I'm pretty "meh" towards the Elven commander, but I think that he's redeemed himself slightly by showing how much he cares about his fellow elves. Kinda like Redcloak himself, ironically.

I think that Thanh and Niu are likely to be captured and killed, though. Nothing says "Redcloak is dangerous and evil" like killing off your favorite good guys. I wonder if people will still like Redcloak after that happens...

Metal Archon

2012-01-10, 11:18 PM

Look, folks. I'm pretty sure Thanh or Eye-Patch-Paladin, at the least, will be able to escape some way or another. There were two different factions of the Resistance at one point. One lead by Patchy the Paladin and the other by the schmuck who got torn in twain. Chances are they had separate hideouts before they all teamed up. So there should be at least two hideouts hanging around somewhere else in Gobbotopia.

Probably.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 11:19 PM

And for those complaining about the supposed 'good guys can't catch a break' nature of the current strips, I suggest you go read some 'Song of Ice and Fire'. Seriously, having just finished the 5th in the series, OotS feels like sunshine and puppies and lollipops in comparison! :smalltongue:
You seem to have been operating under the misapprehension that "A Song of Ice and Fire" contains "good guys".

t209

2012-01-10, 11:24 PM

You seem to have been operating under the misapprehension that "A Song of Ice and Fire" contains "good guys".

I think he meant that the novel have grey morality that most characters are evil! (kinda remind me of those from Azure City who rather use ninjas on their own kinsmen instead of goblins).

Goosefeather

2012-01-10, 11:26 PM

I dunno, I'm sure there must be a couple of very minor characters mentioned who haven't done anything heinous yet :smalltongue:

Edit: To clarify, ASoIaF contains lots of morally grey characters, covering pretty much every shade imaginable. In fact, only a few reach the moral extremes of 'pure black' or 'pure white' (ignoring the potential unfortunate implications of that particular metaphor) - and yes, there are several examples of the latter. For example,

Samwell, Myrcella, Tommen, Hodor, Dolorous Edd - off the top of my head.

Zimmerwald1915's point was (I assume) poking fun at the way many if not most of the protagonists are morally greyer than in more 'traditional' fantasy works, and at how the overall effect of the books can seem rather bleak and cynical, since the few unambiguously good characters do tend to get overshadowed by the mire of greyness that surrounds them.

In light of this, the current 'speciesist elf vs slaver goblin' debate seems comparatively almost simple! :smalltongue:

Gnoman

2012-01-10, 11:59 PM

Would it be possible for someone to either show an explanation of why there is all this elf hate or to provide a link to an explanation?

Too put it bluntly, relatively poor writers have taken the Tolkienian elf from "Fundamentally different being that is older than Man" to "fundamentally superior Mary Sues that are automatically superior in all things simply by virtue of being an elf." (The Eragon books are the most recent standard-bearer for this. Rather than taking this as a reason to avoid less-skilled writers, many people have irrationally decided that elves are the problem. (much the same has happened with vampires post-Twilight.)

Basically, it's the same reason so many players hate the concept of a paladin.

t209

2012-01-11, 12:13 AM

Do you think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo) will happen to the resistance?

ti'esar

2012-01-11, 12:39 AM

Basically, it's the same reason so many players hate the concept of a paladin.

Speaking as someone who is less than fond of elves himself, do you mean this in a general sense - that is, because it's a concept that is often poorly executed? Because I can't say I've ever seen any paladins depicted as "fundamentally superior Mary Sues".

As far as the comic goes... wow. That was brutal. Redcloak has now solidly established some villain cred in his own right.

Incidentally, anyone have any idea what the huge devil that ripped Topknot Guy in half (alas) was? Doesn't look like the same kind as the big ones from last strip and panels 2-3.

t209

2012-01-11, 01:15 AM

Speaking as someone who is less than fond of elves himself, do you mean this in a general sense - that is, because it's a concept that is often poorly executed? Because I can't say I've ever seen any paladins depicted as "fundamentally superior Mary Sues".

As far as the comic goes... wow. That was brutal. Redcloak has now solidly established some villain cred in his own right.

Incidentally, anyone have any idea what the huge devil that ripped Topknot Guy in half (alas) was? Doesn't look like the same kind as the big ones from last strip and panels 2-3.

Nope and characters with no names are most likely to be Redshirts or dead! I hope Thanh will call out names of the remaining resistance and an elf (maybe) to save them.
Lets face it, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) show that the resistance will fall.
Note that Goblin Dan is old which means goblin will still control azure city and outlying area. But on the bright side, OOTS will save the world.

DaveMcW

2012-01-11, 01:22 AM

Lets face it, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) show that the resistance will fall.
Note that Goblin Dan is old which means goblin will still control azure city and outlying area. But on the bright side, OOTS will save the world.

All that strip shows is that evil races will still inhabit Sunken Valley.

xroads

2012-01-11, 01:41 AM

Redcloak, you inspire me! :smallbiggrin:

I was going to create some plain old conjuror for a Pathfinder game. But after seeing him put Summon Monster to devishly good use, I may have to make a cleric instead!

As for my two cents, I suspect Redcloak is beginning to put things into motion to defeat Xykon when the time comes. He has to have a fairly high wisdom afterall and knows he's going to need to be ready.

~XRoads

Halleflux

2012-01-11, 01:57 AM

...Xykon is going to die. Redcloak has no intention of giving back Xykon his phylactery, Xykon would hide it somewhere, and Redcloak would have no hold over him. And here is the big thing--NEITHER Xykon OR Redcloak are necessary anymore! With Tsukiko, it's only a matter of time before Xykon is killed outright, or Redcloak is... or both are. And I think Redcloak has no intention of waiting for Xykon to kill him, now that he can cast miracle. Pity to see any of them go, though.:smallfurious:

The MunchKING

2012-01-11, 01:57 AM

Not arguing for detect-and-smite here. I'm arguing that you're setting an awfully low standard for determining who is evil enough to detect as such. Thinking evil thoughts, feeling evil impulses (these remain undefined) does not an evil person make.

Didn't the Rules say you needed a fairly strong amount of Evil to even have enough of an aura to 'ping' as Evil?? detect-and-smite should work, if the only ones evil enough to qualify are Undead powered by dark Unholy Forces, foul Blasphemous Clerics, and other beings that have strongly devoted their lives to evil. The lower the bar you set for Detect Evil picking you up the less good it is for figuring out who to smite.

Murray

2012-01-11, 02:07 AM

So, is our closing splash page for the volume gonna be Redcloak telling it like it is? I'm really feeling that this is his moment, and he ain't done talkin yet.

tiercel

2012-01-11, 02:07 AM

Too put it bluntly, relatively poor writers have taken the Tolkienian elf from "Fundamentally different being that is older than Man" to "fundamentally superior Mary Sues that are automatically superior in all things simply by virtue of being an elf."

Well... honestly, the archetype is nearly universal. For one thing, there are probably more strong positive well-known archetypes of bards than there are actual ugly elves -- elves are pretty much universally represented as beautiful, hopelessly more beautiful than you. And there's the "elves are young and beautiful forever thing," and "elves don't die of old age, they just Go Somewhere Else" (not universal but certainly common ever since and including Tolkien).

Because elves are almost always given their long-lived status, that generally means the best X in the world is always an elf, given their hundreds of years of mastery. Also, elves are more in tune with nature than you, create more beautiful items than you, use more elegant weapons and armor than you, have more subraces than you.

Peter Jackson didn't help this any with Legolas: Extreme Elf, or "elves are more beautiful and terrible and wise than you" or "the death of an elf is more exquisitely sad than yours" (or even, in the extended version, "elves are better drinkers than you, yes, even dwarves").

In fact, it's rare to find many examples of actual weaknesses of elves other than:

Elves are generally a little more frail than you, when their thousands-years-old elven enchantments and superior elven equipment and plot armor actually fail them
Elves, as a group/nation/race, are sometimes a little slow to act/react because they know so much more than you and thus have so much more to consider than you possibly could
Elves know they are better than you, and will remind you of it

I'd be open to a list of not-so-relatively-poor writers/works that depict elves significantly different from the basic archetype of Elves Are Better Than You (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter), given how common adherence actually is.

ti'esar

2012-01-11, 02:22 AM

Incidentally, to the people wondering/complaining about what the point of the Resistance grabbing the phylactery was if it was almost immediately undone: even if there is no further twist coming up, and the next strip simply has Redcloak finish slaughtering the survivors, I'd still say that it wasn't "pointless". The Resistance hadn't been seen for over a hundred strips, and when we last did see them, the focus had largely been on Commander Bigot and his hobgoblin-tossing actions. A strip like 824 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html) was an effective way of both reintroducing them and making us feel bad at their subsequent TPK.

Of course, the people whose names we know are still alive (the corpse in panel 7 looks like a generic female Azure City soldier, not Niu), and I personally think that there might be one more twist in for us here. Although I'm inclined to think it's more likely to be something along the lines of people's suggestion that the big fiend is an IFCC agent then anything going for the good guys. But even if that doesn't happen, I wouldn't say that 824 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html) was "pointless".

Wonton

2012-01-11, 02:27 AM

Wow, Redcloak hit 17. :smalleek:

I gotta say, I never considered just how horrifying the actual effects of Implosion would be. It says something about Rich's talent as an artist that he was able to bring out that level of horror and revulsion in me using stick figures.

Herabec

2012-01-11, 02:29 AM

That was...

Surprisingly brutal.

toughluck

2012-01-11, 02:40 AM

I assume nothing.
Let me guess -- you're not a native speaker, are you? I was putting this in Elf Commander's perspective, sheesh!

The hobbo couldn't not be scryed on - Clositer effect, remember? And, beyond morals, the practical benefits of taking him prisoner (interrogation, mindwipe, possible release to act as an enemy spy who would be much more efficient and secure than a polymorphed elf) overshadows the inconveniences.
Cloister -- all we know is that you can't scry into it, but that you can from inside of it. Obviously, this would mean the Resistance was screwed anyway in that the tunnels could have been combed through and through by Redcloak without leaving the tower at all.
Obviously, this leaves open the question whether the Resistance was at all aware of Cloister and that they could have been constantly monitored, but it was a risk they were willing to take. Taking in a prisoner wasn't.
Oh, and we also know that epic level magic is able to penetrate the effects of the Cloister. If that wasn't proof enough, Sending works within Cloister as well -- I can easily believe that they'd think of a way.
Edit: Oh, and Teleport also works within the Cloister, so that's yet another example that it's selective.

About the "how much time until a patrol randomly wanders in"... apparently enough to escort out more than a hundred released prisoners. In fact, halting the operation to execute the Hobbo is an unnecessary delay in regards to that argument.
Oh, so you take the hobgoblin, plant him back in the city and suddenly nobody recognizes him as the prisoner? Nobody at all? Nobody's going to check who he is, they'll just blindly accept him in the ranks?

"The only good [insert race here] is a dead [insert race here]" is perhaps the most crystalline example of a racist/specism joke.
Which proves just that he loves gallows humor, but it still doesn't mean he's mindlessly killing the goblinoids. He was ironic in taunting the hobgoblin, but regardless of that, he didn't do anything that makes him any more racist than Redcloak (quite the contrary).

Favored Enemy means the Ranger has studied that type of creature and trained in techniques to specifically fight it. At no point in the description of the Ranger class does it say that the Ranger must hate said type of creature, or needs to have racial prejudices against it.
Which begs the question why introduce that favored enemy, and how it makes the class a prime example of racism in DnD.

toughluck

2012-01-11, 02:45 AM

Because his tag line was "good goblins are dead goblins."

His lieutenant knew it was his tag line before he said it in that strip, so yes, it really is his tag line.

The question is not, "Why accuse him of racism/speciesism?" The question is, "Why argue with the clearly observable fact that he was a racist/speciesist?"
Or, she was going with the joke, knowing his style and sense of humor. I saw it coming from miles away, and I'm not even a native speaker.

If rangers were expected to hate their favored enemies--instead of choosing species to gain various bonuses against, including Sense Motive, which can easily include the ranger's own species--then yes. What's your point? People wave that around as though "rangers have favored enemies" would mean "racism isn't wrong" with any fewer claims than just the ones encapsulated in "racism isn't wrong."
No, I'm not justifying racism, mind you, I'm only pointing out how all of DnD is rife with examples of something we consider unacceptable.

That's a game. But still, most people would agree that "Favored Enemy: Apache" is vehemently racist, even if it only carries the various bonuses, and I could never imagine "DnD: North America Edition" to hit the shelves and not cause a commotion.

factotum

2012-01-11, 02:51 AM

Question. Although the reverse isn't possible, can one teleport from inside the cloistered area to a point outside it? And if so, is there any reason why the teleporty-wizard-elf wasn't part of the group that stole the phylactery in the first place, ready to whisk it away asap? :smallconfused:

It's called "overconfidence". It's the same reason they never considered that Redcloak might have placed a polymorphed spy amongst their ranks...they just didn't think a mere goblin would have the smarts to do that, so they believed the caves to be an impenetrable secret fortress. Presumably Redcloak was deliberately holding off wiping out the Resistance before this, because he must have known their location for some time...

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-01-11, 03:01 AM

Or, she was going with the joke, knowing his style and sense of humor. I saw it coming from miles away, and I'm not even a native speaker.
I am a native speaker and I assure "the only good X is a dead X" is 100% racist in that context. If you want to defend the Elf Commander as probably less of a monster than Red Cloak, who has done some truly nasty things, go ahead, but please don't pretend he isn't what he is.

But still, most people would agree that "Favored Enemy: Apache" is vehemently racist, even if it only carries the various bonuses, and I could never imagine "DnD: North America Edition" to hit the shelves and not cause a commotion.

Why would most people agree this? I'm pretty sure there are variants of rangers that can take social groups like nations as Favored Enemies. It would entirely depend on how you used it. Certainly, such a skill would have been useful for a variety of groups, including other Native American nations that frequently clashed with the Apache or United States soldiers who were fighting them, but the fights could as easily be over territory as racism.

OoTLink

2012-01-11, 03:03 AM

Oh that is just disgusting.

And it looks like he imploded the lieutenant too :(

toughluck

2012-01-11, 03:05 AM

Support a military who engaged in pre emptive genocidal campaign against goblinoids everywhere, most of which had no knowledge of the gates, and few who would have ever seen an Azurite

What pre-emptive genocidal campaign against goblinoids, pray tell?! Have you read SoD? There was a very good reason for going all-out on targeted raids against specific goblins. If they were defended by a group of other goblins, all the worse for the rest.

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-01-11, 03:05 AM

Also, all the good things the resistance had done did mostly include rescuing slaves and those unjustly imprisoned. One could successfully argue that this was all the good the resistance ever did that we ever got notification of. Surely most of those people were smuggled out and are probably alive somewhere. Y'know, unless the goblins made a written message for passing spelljammers somewhere.

Thanks. I was going to point that out if no one else had.

"All the good things" someone accomplishes aren't automatically undone by their death anymore than Xykon passing on will fix everything that happened to all his victims.

Burner28

2012-01-11, 03:15 AM

Such a shame that the Commmander didn't live to become a more important character.

Chrono_Crow

2012-01-11, 03:27 AM

Haven't posted about this comic in a long, long time. But I had to say, this is the most disturbing strip in the entire comic so far. Holy hell. . .

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 03:33 AM

snikrept

2012-01-11, 04:59 AM

Love that Implosion turns you into a scribble in a Stick Figure universe. That's some great meta-art!

ericgrau

2012-01-11, 05:35 AM

ti'esar

2012-01-11, 05:48 AM

I gotta join the others defending the late, inside out elf commander.

Sure, he told a racist joke. Yes, he murdered a hobgoblin prisoner.

He also risked and ultimately lost his life fighting to help a conquered and enslaved people far from his home.

I'm not quite seeing the whole "hurray he totally got what was coming to him" thing.

Well, I'm not exactly dancing on his grave, but his death didn't really do much to earn him sympathy points. Implosion is gruesome, but probably also almost instantaneous, while on the other side of the equation, his decision to charge sealed the doom of the remaining Resistance members (I'm still not convinced Redcloak knew they were there last strip), and his concern only about the dead elves does little to distinguish him in the prejudice/morality department.

I'm not cheering here - the annihilation of Team Peregrine is definitely not a good thing. But I can't say I feel all that bad for the commander either.

pjackson

2012-01-11, 05:58 AM

Support a military who engaged in pre emptive genocidal campaign against goblinoids everywhere, most of which had no knowledge of the gates, and few who would have ever seen an Azurite

The Sapphire Guard were a secret order - not most of the military, and they did not engage in a genocidal campaign against goblins everywhere. Their campaign was aimed against threats to the Gate they were sworn to protect - which happened to include the bearer of the Crimson Cloak.

Thanatosia

2012-01-11, 06:07 AM

I'm kind of suprised at the level of shock at the dipiction of Implosion. Sure it's pretty brutal, but I guess most of you never read Start of Darkness? Because I found RC's dipiction of Smite - which litteraly broke people faces into bloody pieces - to be even more disturbing then implosion.

I guess this little arc isn't over, but in two strips, it's pretty much undone every good thing that Haley and the Resistance did over the course of an entire book or more. I realize also that the Azurites aren't the true heroes of the story, but having the Resistance around signified the fact that perhaps eventually some of the evil done by Xykon and Redcloak might be mitigated. Now that hope is utterly dashed. Azure City will probably never be retaken
As for Azure City never being Retaken.... good. As Redcloak himself pretty much said, the Azurites owe Goblinkind a city and a nation for oppressing and destroying theirs for hundreds of years. Goblintopia being built on the corpses of Azurite Paladins is nothing but karma, and it's not even all that bad, I"m sure the amount of Azurites actually killed in the founding of Goblintopia is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Goblins killed by the Azurites over their history - most azurites were able to escape by ship, a luxury not given to the Goblins in Redcloaks Village for example.

I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but this just strikes me as the scales being balanced now. Azurites have their new homeland, and should stick to it..... they should not reclaim Azure City, it's Goblintopia now.

leaving Hinjo and his charges permanently marooned and useless, which, again, leaves me to wonder why we were ever asked to invest ourselves in their struggles at all.
Why do they have to retake Azure City to care bout Hinjo and his people? Can't you still care about them as they peacefully set up a new home on the abandoned isles off the coast of the western continent that V lead them to?

The Azurites lost the 'moral right' to Azure city by opressing a weaker culture. That doesn't mean Azurites have to be exterminated, but they should have to pay a price for it, and they did. Hopefully they can learn a lesson from their history and be more tolerant of other sentient creatures on the fringe of their societies next time.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 06:28 AM

Cloister -- all we know is that you can't scry into it, but that you can from inside of it. Obviously, this would mean the Resistance was screwed anyway in that the tunnels could have been combed through and through by Redcloak without leaving the tower at all.

You pretty much answer yourself: Redcloak didn't need to plant a Spy to scry on the Resistance. He needs just to ask Tsukiko (who has fought the Resistance a lot of times and knows the face of a lot of it's members) to cast a Scry on them.

This also beats the "leave no witness" argument. The Resistance left many witnesses on his past raids, as Tsukiko and her Black Squad broke on several of them. The Resistance even got some of his members turned into Wrights. At a time in which they where divided in three factions quarreling between themselves. And yet they survived. So I don't buy the "they can't afford to leave a witness" line, specially when said witness isn't even sympatetic with the occuping army.

Oh, so you take the hobgoblin, plant him back in the city and suddenly nobody recognizes him as the prisoner? Nobody at all? Nobody's going to check who he is, they'll just blindly accept him in the ranks?

I dunno, maybe after a raid, leave him as one of the defending soldiers like he had survived. There are a lot of options and thinking about them is not the point of this debate. The chance to be able to have a hobbo collaborator is too good to pass it.

Which proves just that he loves gallows humor, but it still doesn't mean he's mindlessly killing the goblinoids. He was ironic in taunting the hobgoblin, but regardless of that, he didn't do anything that makes him any more racist than Redcloak (quite the contrary).

Redcloak admits himself to be a specist. About the Commander, as someone pointed it's not gallows humor, it's his tag line (and his lieutenant knows it well enough). That it was a racist remark can be seen from a thousand leagues afar, native speaker or not, and like many other forum members have remarked, it's pointless to argue against it.

Which begs the question why introduce that favored enemy, and how it makes the class a prime example of racism in DnD.

Having something as favored enemy doesn't means you can't respect that something. Perhaps the best example could be the Orcs (under the "honorable brutes" take on them), who are very likely to love they favored enemies. A Ranger following some kind of animistic philosophy (which is one of the kinds of philosophy that totally matches the Ranger class) is likely to respect his favored enemies ("cycle of nature" and all that). A Ranger with some zen-esque philosophy on matrial arts would also ("respect your enemy. Respect that what make you stronger", etc.)

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 06:33 AM

It seems like both sides had a remarkable lack of detect magic in this matter. I can see the evils maybe missing the polymorphed dude but the Resistance really can't spare a cantrip to screen the freed prisoners? Especially since mundane disguises don't work well across racial boundaries so there's little else to worry about.

OTOH they might research some custom high level magic concealment for their special mole.

The human resistance lacks clerics with a level high enough to actually produce food (which is a 3rd level spell). Much less a "true vision" spell (which is a 5th level spell).

The elven cleric and mage... ok, their fault.

Ancano

2012-01-11, 07:22 AM

Anyone else gonna miss the wood elf ranger? Can't believe we didn't even learn his name.

Jast Boris

2012-01-11, 07:34 AM

Damn, I'm terribly worried about the Blue Mustache!
In survived only he, girls and elf with pink hair,
a betrayer is not counted.

Anyone else gonna miss the wood elf ranger? Can't believe we didn't even learn his name.
I think this is one of the reasons why he died)

Beowulf DW

2012-01-11, 08:06 AM

I'm kind of suprised at the level of shock at the dipiction of Implosion. Sure it's pretty brutal, but I guess most of you never read Start of Darkness? Because I found RC's dipiction of Smite - which litteraly broke people faces into bloody pieces - to be even more disturbing then implosion.

As for Azure City never being Retaken.... good. As Redcloak himself pretty much said, the Azurites owe Goblinkind a city and a nation for oppressing and destroying theirs for hundreds of years. Goblintopia being built on the corpses of Azurite Paladins is nothing but karma, and it's not even all that bad, I"m sure the amount of Azurites actually killed in the founding of Goblintopia is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Goblins killed by the Azurites over their history - most azurites were able to escape by ship, a luxury not given to the Goblins in Redcloaks Village for example.

I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but this just strikes me as the scales being balanced now. Azurites have their new homeland, and should stick to it..... they should not reclaim Azure City, it's Goblintopia now.

Why do they have to retake Azure City to care bout Hinjo and his people? Can't you still care about them as they peacefully set up a new home on the abandoned isles off the coast of the western continent that V lead them to?

The Azurites lost the 'moral right' to Azure city by opressing a weaker culture. That doesn't mean Azurites have to be exterminated, but they should have to pay a price for it, and they did. Hopefully they can learn a lesson from their history and be more tolerant of other sentient creatures on the fringe of their societies next time.

You're making way too many assumptions about casualties on both sides. You're also making the mistake of assuming that because a small part of one generation sinned, the entire next generation must pay for it. If my father had killed a man before I was even concieved, would it be just to make me pay for it? No, it's not, which is why our justice system doesn't charge children for crimes their parents commit.

lucasliso

2012-01-11, 08:27 AM

Alright! Redcloack rules. Long live the Goblin's revolution.
Master tactician, great at counter espionage.

Is there anything this goblin can't do?

whitelaughter

2012-01-11, 08:28 AM

On another note, there is now conclusive proof that no one in the Resistance was genre-savvy at all. How did they not expect a betrayal from the guy with that widow's peak? :smalltongue:
And none of these paladins uses their abilities properly. Sure, it's easy to block Detect Evil, but the good old Back Slap of Smite Evil is a great way to locate intruders - should be a basic move every day for any Paladin who isn't expecting to go into combat!

The human resistance lacks clerics with a level high enough to actually produce food (which is a 3rd level spell). Much less a "true vision" spell (which is a 5th level spell).
Even at 1st level:
Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Detect Good. Unless someone is pinging Good, they shouldn't be trusted under those circumstances.

jidasfire

2012-01-11, 08:36 AM

I'm kind of suprised at the level of shock at the dipiction of Implosion. Sure it's pretty brutal, but I guess most of you never read Start of Darkness? Because I found RC's dipiction of Smite - which litteraly broke people faces into bloody pieces - to be even more disturbing then implosion.

As for Azure City never being Retaken.... good. As Redcloak himself pretty much said, the Azurites owe Goblinkind a city and a nation for oppressing and destroying theirs for hundreds of years. Goblintopia being built on the corpses of Azurite Paladins is nothing but karma, and it's not even all that bad, I"m sure the amount of Azurites actually killed in the founding of Goblintopia is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Goblins killed by the Azurites over their history - most azurites were able to escape by ship, a luxury not given to the Goblins in Redcloaks Village for example.

I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but this just strikes me as the scales being balanced now. Azurites have their new homeland, and should stick to it..... they should not reclaim Azure City, it's Goblintopia now.

Why do they have to retake Azure City to care bout Hinjo and his people? Can't you still care about them as they peacefully set up a new home on the abandoned isles off the coast of the western continent that V lead them to?

The Azurites lost the 'moral right' to Azure city by opressing a weaker culture. That doesn't mean Azurites have to be exterminated, but they should have to pay a price for it, and they did. Hopefully they can learn a lesson from their history and be more tolerant of other sentient creatures on the fringe of their societies next time.

You know, I realize that one of the major themes of this comic has become "goblins are people too," and that's all well and good, but it's fascinating to me the sheer level of atrocities people are willing to justify in order to show how enlightened they are toward a fictional species. I mean, even if that's a worthwhile endeavor, it's predicated largely on the actions taken by Xykon, the most evil character in the whole series, and Redcloak, a guy who has caused more goblin death than one snarky elf. And these are the people whose actions are being cheered against some folks who just happened to come from the same country as some jerks? I mean, assuming the story has a happy ending, does that ending include this noble, proud nation of Gobbotopia continuing to enslave, torture, and animate the corpses of a bunch of people unlucky enough to have the same skin tone as people who oppressed them? Do we think for a minute that a militaristic dictatorship with a cult of personality leader is going to decide to live in peace with their neighbors forever? Is that what I'm supposed to see as a good thing here? Sorry, but I just can't.

Kish

2012-01-11, 08:47 AM

Even at 1st level:
Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Detect Good. Unless someone is pinging Good, they shouldn't be trusted under those circumstances.
I would venture that most of the prisoners likely don't ping good. Humans aren't an Always X Good race, or a Usually X Good race, or even an Often X Good race.

And Undetectable Alignment is a second level cleric spell. There's a reason Cliffport doesn't rely on magical detection methods, you know? And it's not "because they're stupid."

Aside from the implausibility of Thanh personally Smiting every member of the Resistance, and aside from the likely effect on the commander of Team Peregrine if he did, "You can Smite without actually making a normal melee attack" is your house rule.

^The commander of Team Peregrine and any of his squad members who share his views being dead is a good thing. All the other things that have happened in the past few strips range from bad to horrendous in an objective sense, but it's easy not to care about individual people who don't have names, whether those people are elf, human, or hobgoblin.

Karoug

2012-01-11, 09:13 AM

Go Redcloak! Oh, Giant, I SO wish I was a GM your level. Great Implosion btw!

toughluck

2012-01-11, 09:15 AM

This also beats the "leave no witness" argument. The Resistance left many witnesses on his past raids, as Tsukiko and her Black Squad broke on several of them. The Resistance even got some of his members turned into Wrights. At a time in which they where divided in three factions quarreling between themselves. And yet they survived. So I don't buy the "they can't afford to leave a witness" line, specially when said witness isn't even sympatetic with the occuping army.
You don't know he's sympathetic with the Resistance! You only have his own words for that, and saying he's untrustworthy would be an understatement. Sure, he could be legit, but it's more likely he was a plant.
By the way, WHAT does he gain by aligning with the Resistance??? They strike out against goblins and hobgoblins alike, and given that currently there is an overwhelming majority of hobgoblins in the city, the far more likely targets are orangeskins rather than the greenskins. He'd gain nothing by aligning with the Resistance -- if he gave them information, any negative effects would affect more hobgoblins than goblins by the single virtue that there's more of them. It'd be more likely for a whole hobbo-only patrol to be wiped out than a single greenskin.
Oooh, and that gives me a nasty idea...

Redcloak admits himself to be a specist. About the Commander, as someone pointed it's not gallows humor, it's his tag line (and his lieutenant knows it well enough). That it was a racist remark can be seen from a thousand leagues afar, native speaker or not, and like many other forum members have remarked, it's pointless to argue against it.
You really think everything said was meant literally?! Like you believe that the hobgoblin was legitimately trying to help the Resistance, and that the Elven Commander's 'tagline' was "The only good goblin is a dead goblin"? Honestly?
Come on, these are jokes, and you can see this one for miles.
Oh sure, the joke is racist, and come to think of it, if that makes him a racist, so be it -- he's racist, too.

Mixt

2012-01-11, 09:24 AM

The only good elf is a dead elf.

*Dances on asshat elfs grave, then pisses on it*

Thanatosia

2012-01-11, 09:38 AM

You know, I realize that one of the major themes of this comic has become "goblins are people too," and that's all well and good, but it's fascinating to me the sheer level of atrocities people are willing to justify in order to show how enlightened they are toward a fictional species.
I don't support the atrocities comitted by the Goblins, what I will say is, they are done. Goblintopia exists. Azure City is gone. Azure City sowed the seeds for this to happen by their own actions. Any moral highground Azure City could have claimed to the land is forfeit by their own atrocities. So what I do NOT support is yet another wiping out of Goblins to return Azure City to the Azurites. I also don't support wiping out the remaining Azurites. I don't support the wiping out of anyone.

Goblintopia is now the Goblins, let them keep it, the Azurites have a new home, they can keep that.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 09:51 AM

And none of these paladins uses their abilities properly. Sure, it's easy to block Detect Evil, but the good old Back Slap of Smite Evil is a great way to locate intruders - should be a basic move every day for any Paladin who isn't expecting to go into combat!

It should be noted that Thanh is the only paladin in the Resistance, and it's leader. Can't spend his day and smite-evil uses back-slapping people. Specially since he doesn't seem to be the type of LG character that would back-slap someone "just in case".

Even at 1st level:
Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Detect Good. Unless someone is pinging Good, they shouldn't be trusted under those circumstances.

Humanity is not an "Usually Good" race. The most common alignment for an human is True Neutral. There are as many evil humans out there as there are good ones. And as many lawful humans as there are chaotic. Detecting the alignment of an human isn't very informative about his true nature or loyalties.

Also, if Redcloak has half a brain (which he has) he would have infiltrated a Hobbo of Neutral alignment (Hobbos are Usually LE, so finding a LN goblin is not very rare, specially in an Horde numbering some thousands). And, given that most humans are neutral, the Resistance (already short of hands) cannot afford to discard Neutral humans.

If Redcloak is specially smart, he will have infiltrated someone under a charm to register as Good, knowing that the Resistance lacks means to see through that, and knowing that high level casters like Xykon and himself should have no problem in trumping a "detect magic" spell from a newbie caster.

kyrin

2012-01-11, 09:56 AM

Yep, well, that's a wrap, people. Resistance is done.

So I guess the devil had teleport as a held action, "when someone starts casting a spell, I will teleport next to them." Then it was too late to change to casting defensively, so the devil got an AOO? Interesting strategy -- I should try it and see if my players crucify me for it...

Well done, Giant. The storyline's depressing, but in an "inspire other GMs" way.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-11, 09:59 AM

You know, I see some of the people cheering about the death of the Elven Commander, and it strikes me as being rather immature about the whole thing. Yes, Start of Darkness has helped us see the Goblinoid's situation in a sympathetic light, the Commander's speciesism is not an admirable trait and what he did to that prisoner was not commendable. However, on the whole we have a guy risking life and limb to protect a people who, through no direct fault of their own, have been conquered and enslaved by an agressive force, and striving to liberate their land. Miko showed that those on the side of Good can be jerks, and Tarquin shows that those on side of Evil can be nice. Maybe the Commander's attitude sowed the seeds of his frankly brutal and gruesome death, but I don't think we should be cheering it. It may be bold to say, but I don't think any of us have absolutely no bad traits.

TheArsenal

2012-01-11, 10:00 AM

I don't support the atrocities comitted by the Goblins, what I will say is, they are done. Goblintopia exists. Azure City is gone. Azure City sowed the seeds for this to happen by their own actions. Any moral highground Azure City could have claimed to the land is forfeit by their own atrocities. So what I do NOT support is yet another wiping out of Goblins to return Azure City to the Azurites. I also don't support wiping out the remaining Azurites. I don't support the wiping out of anyone.

Goblintopia is now the Goblins, let them keep it, the Azurites have a new home, they can keep that.

The tragedy is- Goblins are MADE villains in this world. I understand the Saphire guards rather harsh and cruel stuff they did (You know SAVING THE WORLD!) in the end sort of killed them but again- this is saving the world.

Gobbotopia is filled with slaves, atrocities and a giant raping rift that might doom us all.

Im sorry but I still have more sympathy for saphirites here.

KyrtFurey

2012-01-11, 10:00 AM

The Sapphire Guard were a secret order - not most of the military

The SG was the military I was thinking of...and they were supported by Azure city.

A sceret order of paladins who few knew about, sent out into the world to kill off any goblins or eliminate any possible threat...real or not...against the gate, which few knew about.

In so doing, they attacked Goblinoids all over the world. Yes, few in AC knew about them, but few of those killed knew or were a threat to the gates.

and they did not engage in a genocidal campaign against goblins everywhere. Their campaign was aimed against threats to the Gate they were sworn to protect - which happened to include the bearer of the Crimson Cloak.

And goblinoids all over the world.

Kish

2012-01-11, 10:10 AM

It may be bold to say, but I don't think any of us have absolutely no bad traits.
"Bold" is not the word I would use.

Racism to the point of using, "Good [X]s are dead [X]s" as a tag line is not a minor peccadillo.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 10:11 AM

You don't know he's sympathetic with the Resistance! You only have his own words for that, and saying he's untrustworthy would be an understatement. Sure, he could be legit, but it's more likely he was a plant.

Someone being untrustworthy is no reason to kill him. Almost all people are untrustworthy to strangers.

By the way, WHAT does he gain by aligning with the Resistance???

His freedom, since the Hobbos sent him to jail. Among other things like petty revenge against those that jailed him.

There are a lot of reasons to betray your species. Xykon was an human, after all, and choose to side with goblins against humans, long before his transformation into a Lich.

You really think everything said was meant literally?! Like you believe that the hobgoblin was legitimately trying to help the Resistance

I don't know if the hobbo was being honest, but it's not a reason to kill him. It would have been a reason to leave him in the cells, or, at most, to knock him unconscious and left behind.

and that the Elven Commander's 'tagline' was "The only good goblin is a dead goblin"? Honestly?

I believe it, among other things because that's basically what his lieutenant's said about the Commander and his views on goblinhood.

Come on, these are jokes, and you can see this one for miles.
Oh sure, the joke is racist, and come to think of it, if that makes him a racist, so be it -- he's racist, too.

No, they are not jokes. The HUMANS (the ones whose city got razed, his countrymen killed and enslaved, and who had been fighting underground for months) didn't kill him on sight, and saw no problem in delivering him to Thanh among the rest of the prisoners.

It's the Elf Commander (the guy that just come to the city, whose country has not been razed, and whose people have not been killed and enslaved) who takes the decision to execute the Hobbo without regards to the opinion of the humans, or the leader of the Resistance, who does not approve such behavior, as implied in the "I see no reason to inform Thanh about this" line.

The justification given by the Elf is just racism. He did not justify himself with a "we can't afford to take him home". He only justified his acts with "the only good goblin is a dead goblin".

It's not, thus, a Joke, but the justification of a cold-blood murder.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 10:26 AM

As for Azure City never being Retaken.... good. As Redcloak himself pretty much said, the Azurites owe Goblinkind a city and a nation for oppressing and destroying theirs for hundreds of years. Goblintopia being built on the corpses of Azurite Paladins is nothing but karma, and it's not even all that bad, I"m sure the amount of Azurites actually killed in the founding of Goblintopia is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Goblins killed by the Azurites over their history - most azurites were able to escape by ship, a luxury not given to the Goblins in Redcloaks Village for example.
Got to agree with Beowulf here wrt the casualties. Shojo said shortly before he was killed that there were 500,000 citizens of Azure City the polity. Of those, the Guide to Azure City in War and XPs says that 250,000 lived within the city walls. Lien estimated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) that the fleet, the only method of mass evacuation mentioned anywhere in the comic, could hold tens of thousands of people. There were 69 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) ships in that fleet when it launched, possibly more just off-panel to the left. Since the fleet is arrayed in a square formation for some reason, the number hidden off-panel should not exceed 16, and since the fleet seems to thin out the farther west you go, it could be much less. So say between 70 and 80 ships in the fleet.Hinjo's junk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html) could hold between 400 and 500 people. As for the other ships, it's a little more complicated. Someone with a bunch more time on his hands can estimate the carrying capacities of each of the ships by counting pixels. I'm just going to assume it averages out to about 400-500 people per ship, since we're presented with a size range that goes both above and below the size of Hinjo's junk. And here's the rub: the carrying capacity of the fleet, plus the number of stated casualties at the end of the battle, does not come anywhere close to the population of Azure City prior to the battle. At the very most (80 ships carrying 500 passengers each) that's a carrying capacity of 40,000 Azurites. The actual number is probably somewhere more like 30,000, since the nobles probably had access to the largest ships and from what we know of them were less than likely to sacrifice creature comforts by packing them to capacity.

The Azurites were said to have taken a further 10,000 casualties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html) in the battle. Assuming that number's accurate, that's at least 1,000 civilian casualties. General Chang estimates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) that Azure City could field 9,000 soldiers for the upcoming battle. And it gets worse: he made that estimate before the nobles withdrew their retainers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html), so the actual number of soldiers fielded could have been much less. We don't really know how much less, but whatever the number it pushes the "civilian casualty" meter over 1,000 without changing the overall casualty numbers. As an aside, there remained 20,000 hobgoblins when that statement was made. Assuming each Azurite civilian casualty was caused by a different hobgoblin means that at least .5% of the hobgoblins remaining murdered civilians. But the problem doesn't stop there. Taken altogether, Azure City's losses to casualties and evacuation can't amount to much more than 50,000. That leaves 200,000 Azurites unaccounted for.

Gobbotopia doesn't have the infrastructure to keep all 200,000 Azurites enslaved. Think about the contexts in which we've seen enslaved Azurites. They've been pretty sparse on the ground, and housed in isolated, fairly small complexes like the prison. Every time we see masses of people, those masses have been dominated by hobgoblins. Nor do the numbers match up: it is not possible for 20,000+ people to keep 200,000+ people enslaved (the greatest slave societies we know about never enslaved more than 50% of the population, let alone 90%), at least not without direct and constant intervention by high-level characters. Even bringing the Tarkin Doctrine into play doesn't actually change much with respect to my argument (the conclusion of which we are coming to), and we are shown that it backfired (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html) the one time we know it was attempted. Basically, it is impossible to reach the state of play we see at the proclamation of Gobbotopia without killing or ethnically cleansing the city of almost all the 200,000 Azurites left at the end of the battle. People throw the word genocide around when talking about the Sapphire Guard's crusade or the unsystematic but constant and consistent marginalization of goblinoids. The real genocide - a planned, systematic extermination of a people defined by race, ethnicity, or national/political affiliation, for no other reason than their belonging to that people - took place in Azure City after its conquest. No other conclusion is possible when you look at the numbers.

I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but this just strikes me as the scales being balanced now. Azurites have their new homeland, and should stick to it..... they should not reclaim Azure City, it's Goblintopia now.
Excuse me, but you're exactly saying that two wrongs make a right. That's what "the hobgoblin's retaliation against the Azurites balanced out the scales" means. Either cop to it or make another argument.

Why do they have to retake Azure City to care bout Hinjo and his people? Can't you still care about them as they peacefully set up a new home on the abandoned isles off the coast of the western continent that V lead them to?
Now, I'm not an elf-hater, but I can't see the Azurites being allowed to just set up shop. The outpost may have been abandoned, but there is no reason for the Elves to drop their claim on the island and the Azurites, decimated as they are, have not the power to contest it. Either the Elves will kick them out or they will demand tribute.

The Azurites lost the 'moral right' to Azure city by opressing a weaker culture. That doesn't mean Azurites have to be exterminated, but they should have to pay a price for it, and they did. Hopefully they can learn a lesson from their history and be more tolerant of other sentient creatures on the fringe of their societies next time.
The Azurites were exterminated, for all intents and purposes. The hobgoblins, for all their hardscrabble existence up in the hills, were not. Somebody may have lost a moral right here (it's certainly debatable), but it wasn't the Azurites.

t209

2012-01-11, 10:30 AM

The Azurites were exterminated, for all intents and purposes. The hobgoblins, for all their hardscrabble existence up in the hills, were not. Somebody may have lost a moral right here (it's certainly debatable), but it wasn't the Azurites.

Actually only the resistance, they need to cross the sea to wipe them out.

Scarlet Knight

2012-01-11, 10:31 AM

"Welcome to Goblin Dan's! Todays special: we have a fresh shipment of Pulled Paladin just in..."

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 10:36 AM

Actually only the resistance, they need to cross the sea to wipe them out.
The bulk of the extermination took place off-panel, when those 200,000 Azurites were disappeared. The Resistance never amounted to more than 1,000 people (less than half a percent of Azure City's original population), and the fleet never held more than 16% of Azure City's original population. Azure Island has a considerably smaller population than that original 16%, since the fleet dropped off refugees in some of the other Southern Lands. Unless it's only a genocide when the whole population is wiped out (in which case the wrongs suffered by the world's goblinoids never amounted to genocide either) we're still looking at a massive affront to life here.

WickedWizard17

2012-01-11, 10:52 AM

Was that a reference to a rule book I'm not familiar with, or did we get teased about the title of the next compilation book? Anyway, :smalleek:

Kish

2012-01-11, 11:01 AM

Was that a reference to a rule book I'm not familiar with, or did we get teased about the title of the next compilation book? Anyway, :smalleek:
How about neither? "Don't judge a book by its cover" is an old saying.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 11:15 AM

The bulk of the extermination took place off-panel, when those 200,000 Azurites were disappeared. The Resistance never amounted to more than 1,000 people (less than half a percent of Azure City's original population), and the fleet never held more than 16% of Azure City's original population. Azure Island has a considerably smaller population than that original 16%, since the fleet dropped off refugees in some of the other Southern Lands. Unless it's only a genocide when the whole population is wiped out (in which case the wrongs suffered by the world's goblinoids never amounted to genocide either) we're still looking at a massive affront to life here.

Interesting numbers. However, I don't recall the Giant having provided such figures.

I don't think that making assumptions about how many people was evacuated with the fleet, based on the fleet drawn by the Giant, is very correct. The Giant could have very well drawn a smaller fleet for artistic reasons (like, lazyness, or "there is no way I can fit such a large fleet in a single panel).

Another thing to take into account, is that I don't think that the prisons of Azure City can held 100,000 - 200,000 people. If we compare with our own world, you will find no State with prisons that can hold more than roughly 1% of it's population. And 1% is way, way beyond the normal number for most states (and way, way beyond the capacity of prisons before the Industrial Revolution). So it's safe to assume that the Azure City Dungeons wouldn't have a capacity for more than, say, 2,000 people. Maybe some thousands more, if they really stack them, but in no case beyond 10,000 at max. Also since the Castle blew up during the battle, their dungeons (including the high security dungeon were the OOTS was jailed, and the Linear Guild was held later) wouldn't be available.

For the Goblins to held a bigger number of azurites as slaves, they would need to have set up concentration camps. However, we haven't seen such, and to the date we have only seen azurite slaves in regular prisons.

Also, since Tsukiko needs to rely on hobgoblin corpses to restock her undead stash, we can assume that the number of azurite civilians dying under hobgoblin occupation is negligible.

How many civilians died during the ransack of the city, is another story. But we haven't been shown information about it. It can vary from a few thousand to several tens of thousands. (I'm not pretending to argue that the fall of Azure City has been a walk in the park for the civilians. Sieges and sacks are dire and bloody events for the population).

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 11:26 AM

Interesting numbers. However, I don't recall the Giant having provided such figures.
They're in the Guide to Azure City in War and XPs (which is apparently going to be reprinted very soon :smallbiggrin: ).

I don't think that making assumptions about how many people was evacuated with the fleet, based on the fleet drawn by the Giant, is very correct. The Giant could have very well drawn a smaller fleet for artistic reasons (like, lazyness, or "there is no way I can fit such a large fleet in a single panel).
Again, the number derived from counting ships lines up with Lien's estimate that the fleet could carry tens of thousands of people. 40,000 falls well within the bounds set by 20,000 and 90,000, and is even fairly close to the mean. And that number is how many people the fleet started with. It lost people along the way. It dropped people off in other Southern Lands. It lost people, whole ships' worth, to attacks. We were never shown or told about diseases or starvation, but that's another factor to consider, especially since the fleet was shown to be consistently short on food (having to resupply from the other Southern Lands and from the Orcs).

Another thing to take into account, is that I don't think that the prisons of Azure City can held 100,000 - 200,000 people. If we compare with our own world, you will find no State with prisons that can hold more than roughly 1% of it's population. And 1% is way, way beyond the normal number for most states (and way, way beyond the capacity of prisons before the Industrial Revolution). So it's safe to assume that the Azure City Dungeons wouldn't have a capacity for more than, say, 2,000 people. Maybe some thousands more, if they really stack them, but in no case beyond 10,000 at max. Also since the Castle blew up during the battle, their dungeons (including the high security dungeon were the OOTS was jailed, and the Linear Guild was held later) wouldn't be available.

For the Goblins to held a bigger number of azurites as slaves, they would need to have set up concentration camps. However, we haven't seen such, and to the date we have only seen azurite slaves in regular prisons.

Also, since Tsukiko needs to rely on hobgoblin corpses to restock her undead stash, we can assume that the number of azurite civilians dying under hobgoblin occupation is negligible.

How many civilians died during the ransack of the city, is another story. But we haven't been shown information about it.
But they had to go somewhere. As you point out, and thank you by the way for further figures, they cannot any longer be within the city walls. We haven't been shown concentration camps whenever we've been treated to panoramic views of the city. If they are not held somewhere, then either they were allowed to flee by land (ethnic cleansing), or they were all killed (genocide).

luc258

2012-01-11, 11:56 AM

On the whole paladin issue:

I'll just go on the opposite side of this discussion and claim that the events in SOD do not make the paladins evil. Their actions, while not good, are justified by the immensly evil plan the Red Cloak goblin is working on and therefore not evil either.

The red cloak artifact can be passed on to young goblins as demonstrated in the book who can and will continue to pursue the ritual, as demonstrated by the whole comic.

People arguing that the most horrendous evil people are not really evil has happened quite frequently already. The most sympathetic guy ends up being good and the unsympathetic guy ends up being evil.

If i may remind of the long list:

-Thog, the mass murderer who kills people for fun and out of boredom
-Tarquin, the slaver who burns people to get 30feet high flaming letters to impress his son
- and now: Red Cloak and the tribe who supports him, the goblins who want to undo all of creation

"Want to undo all of creation" should be enough to clearly show who is good and who is evil. Just as the 30 feet high flaming letters should have been. Or boredom driven rampages with a 100 casualties or so.

Omergideon

2012-01-11, 12:03 PM

Now this was indeed an action packed and exciting strip with a fair amount of plot development. I certainly think this was a better strip than last time. Certainly nothing that settles the arguements on who Redcloak was speaking to last time (though the evidence for him spotting the resistance guys is growing) but I don't really care too much about it. This strip was exciting. But on to my review.

The Good:
1) The action was extremely fast paced, brutal and well drawn. Every scene was packed full of details and a lot of expressive motions and characters. This extends to the art in general, being full and detailed but not too cluttered IMO. With one exception, but that will be commented on later. Of special note is the implosion effect.
2) Redcloak in this strip was a badass. Simply put the way he moved, spoke and acted was incredible to watch. We knew he was high level and quite strong but witnessing the sheer ease with which he walks through the resistance here is impressive. Particularly the choice of attack spell. It is brutal and painful in a way destruction (etc) is not continuing the appearance of a more hard edged Redcloak. A nice character effect shown in their actions.
3) The twist at the end was unexpected, but with the previous strips a nicely foreshadowed one. A polymorphed Goblin soldier is a cool idea and adds more emphasis to earlier conflicts with the resistance as well as providing a contrast I will comment on at the end.
4) Thanth is the one calling for retreat. A small moment, but one that adds to a 3D picture of his character and that of Paladins as a whole.
5) Finally the strip flows well, and with the twist has a strong ending. however there is enough within it to suggest a continuing story later on. For instance, wasn't Thanth headed in the same direction as the Goblin spy? A great example of the webcomic format.

The Bad
1) There is one panel that does detract from my enjoyment of the strip. The one where the elf confronts Reddy just feels pretty cluttered to me. The amount of speech at the top, and the action at the bottom stop the action from being as clean as it could be. But this is the only major negative in a well designed strip.

Overall I liked this strip a lot. It was well paced, had strong moments and even some good character disply in the "show, don't tell" manner for Redcloak and Thanth. All things I like. In addition it is interesting to see the Azurite resistance human declare the Goblin spy a Bastard, and yet was fully supportive of the polymorphed human spy previously. A very interesting look at perspectives on war and one that deserves looking at some other time. So for a strip with good action, moments, character and more I must recommend it. There is no real humour in this one, but then that is to be expected in an action strip. Overall I rate this as a *** 1/2 comic.

pendell

2012-01-11, 12:04 PM

Given that genocide has been established as evil -- objectively evil -- in the game world, wouldn't the paladins fall and be unable to use their paladin powers if they were pursing a policy of genocide?

Way I see it, you use the right tool for the right job. If you're leading a state and you've got a bit of nasty work done, you hire Tarquin. You don't commission an order of paladins who must be lawful good or turn into fighters-without-bonus-feats.

My point is, the fact that these actions are being undertaken by an order of paladins that remain in lawful good standing -- by and large, there are exceptions who fall -- tell us either that "lawful good" means something very different on OOTS than it does here, or there's a lot more to the Sapphire Guard's actions than was shown in SOD.

Which is not to say that what we saw in SOD wasn't a general massacre. It was. But the fact that the Sapphire Guard is made of and able to remain paladins suggest we're missing some pieces of the puzzle.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 12:06 PM

(...) If they are not held somewhere, then either they were allowed to flee by land (ethnic cleansing), or they were all killed (genocide).

Well, that the azurites suffered either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing (probably a mixture of both) is beyond question. Their former city is now populated and claimed by the Goblins, with the former population either enslaved, killed, or evicted.

Ravian

2012-01-11, 12:12 PM

Why would most people agree this? I'm pretty sure there are variants of rangers that can take social groups like nations as Favored Enemies. It would entirely depend on how you used it. Certainly, such a skill would have been useful for a variety of groups, including other Native American nations that frequently clashed with the Apache or United States soldiers who were fighting them, but the fights could as easily be over territory as racism.

Very true, in oriental adventures, Shadow Scout, a prestige class with rangerlike abilities, have favored enemies and can choose for these favored enemies to be other clans of humans rather than species of monsters. Obviously there's nothing to say that some Shadow Scouts or Rangers could personally be racist towards their favored enemies, however such training isn't necessairly a racist desire to kill such people. Rather for Shadow scouts, they would have studied the combat styles and cultural habits of these clans to better learn how to fight them for one reason or another.

A Ranger in my opinion is no more likely to be racist then any other class.

t209

2012-01-11, 12:24 PM

They're in the Guide to Azure City in War and XPs (which is apparently going to be reprinted very soon :smallbiggrin: ).

Again, the number derived from counting ships lines up with Lien's estimate that the fleet could carry tens of thousands of people. 40,000 falls well within the bounds set by 20,000 and 90,000, and is even fairly close to the mean. And that number is how many people the fleet started with. It lost people along the way. It dropped people off in other Southern Lands. It lost people, whole ships' worth, to attacks. We were never shown or told about diseases or starvation, but that's another factor to consider, especially since the fleet was shown to be consistently short on food (having to resupply from the other Southern Lands and from the Orcs).

But they had to go somewhere. As you point out, and thank you by the way for further figures, they cannot any longer be within the city walls. We haven't been shown concentration camps whenever we've been treated to panoramic views of the city. If they are not held somewhere, then either they were allowed to flee by land (ethnic cleansing), or they were all killed (genocide).

Also count having paladins, OOTS members (Cleric, Bard and Wizard) on the factor of the ships! Cure Diseases?

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 12:29 PM

Well, that the azurites suffered either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing (probably a mixture of both) is beyond question. Their former city is now populated and claimed by the Goblins, with the former population either enslaved, killed, or evicted.
You think it's beyond question. I agree with you, and believe the comic supports you. And yet, there are some people who do not (the poster to which Beowulf and I responded did not believe Azurite casualties exceeded five figures), which is why the argument bears repeating.

Also count having paladins, OOTS members (Cleric, Bard and Wizard) on the factor of the ships! Cure Diseases?
Wizards and bards can't cast Remove Disease. We have no evidence to suggest Hinjo or Lien are 9th level or higher (the level where they'd be able to Remove Disease more than once per week). Even if they were, they plus Durkon are three people, and while the population of Azure City dwarfs the population of the fleet, the fleet dwarfs those three. It's a fairly moot point since we were never shown a plague, but if one were to strike it is by no means within the capabilities of the fleet, or now I guess of Azure Island, to reverse. They could arrest it by quarantining infected ships, but that still loses the infected ships, which goes back to my point that the fleet took a number of losses at sea.

Kish

2012-01-11, 12:31 PM

Haven't posted about this comic in a long, long time. But I had to say, this is the most disturbing strip in the entire comic so far. Holy hell. . .
Really? I find http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html , http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html , http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html , http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html , and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html all to eclipse this one, personally.

And there are strips in Start of Darkness to which this one can't begin to compare.

Sunken Valley

2012-01-11, 12:33 PM

t209

2012-01-11, 12:35 PM

Shouldn't Thanh fall for retreating? Lien was captured by the Orcs for her refusal too. Also noticed, Thanh is wearing the white magic armour in the flashback (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html). But he's not now. Does this mean he's protecting himself if he does fall?

Well according to D&D Paladin rules, retreat is consider as minor infraction and can be used if it is in justifiable situation (Full Number of Enemy).
P.S- I think he will call out the surviving resistance names and charge through the line to escape.

Kish

2012-01-11, 12:39 PM

"Lien refused to do X"=/="X will cause a paladin to Fall."

A paladin's code of conduct is:

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Notice the distinct lack of, "Must not retreat in the face of enemies with a Challenge Rating three times what would be appropriate for your current group." It's not even a minor infraction; it's no infraction at all.

Ranzear

2012-01-11, 12:41 PM

Ochul was ready to bail once Xykon's phylactery had been tossed towards the rift (prior to the hold person Xykon was in the way of escape mind you), so I don't think retreat from a no-contest encounter would cause OOTS Paladins to fall.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 12:44 PM

Skull the Troll

2012-01-11, 12:47 PM

Michaeler

2012-01-11, 12:55 PM

Really? I find http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html , http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html , http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html , http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html , and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html all to eclipse this one, personally.

And there are strips in Start of Darkness to which this one can't begin to compare.

None of which are as disturbing as Belkar sexually harassing Roy, let's be fair.

Beowulf DW

2012-01-11, 12:55 PM

You think it's beyond question. I agree with you, and believe the comic supports you. And yet, there are some people who do not (the poster to which Beowulf and I responded did not believe Azurite casualties exceeded five figures), which is why the argument bears repeating.

Thanks for the figures, there. They are unfortunate and disturbing, yet unsurprising. I never really thought about the figures before, and I don't no if the Giant ever meant for those implications to come across, but for better or worse, those implications are there.

What happened to the Azurites resembles the Jewish Diaspora to a great extent. Most have likely been forced out of their homeland, many are enslaved, many were killed, establishing ghettoes in other lands, and most importantly vulnerable to the aggression of other nations.

dancrilis

2012-01-11, 01:00 PM

kyrin

2012-01-11, 01:06 PM

Thanh was looking to preserve the Mission (Lawful) in a way that would preserve the lives of his people (Good). Retreat, scmetreat. A god that demands paladins be Lawful Stupid will run out of paladins jiffy-quick. Sorry it didn't work out for Thanh, but I'm sure Tiger will give him a pat on the back.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-11, 01:36 PM

- and now: Red Cloak and the tribe who supports him, the goblins who want to undo all of creationHow does "Redcloak looks on the 'bright' side of the Snarl getting loose" suddenly turn into "all of Redcloak's followers want to undo creation"? From what we've seen, the only goblins who know about the Plan in the first place are the Dark One, the Dark One's high priests, and the high priests' right-hand men (such as Right-Eye and Jirix). So, no, there is no tribe of goblins seeking to undo creation, there are only a small handful of goblins (if not, only a single goblin; we don't know the Dark One or previous high priests' opinions on the matter, though presumably the Dark One thinks likewise) willing to risk creation for the sake of their insane Plan.

Not trying to sympathize with the Plan (I think it is atrocious), just pointing out the huge difference between what it entails and what some people think it entails.

Doug Lampert

2012-01-11, 01:43 PM

Didn't the Rules say you needed a fairly strong amount of Evil to even have enough of an aura to 'ping' as Evil?? detect-and-smite should work, if the only ones evil enough to qualify are Undead powered by dark Unholy Forces, foul Blasphemous Clerics, and other beings that have strongly devoted their lives to evil. The lower the bar you set for Detect Evil picking you up the less good it is for figuring out who to smite.

Humans show no tendancy toward any alignment, even neutral. Based on this roughly 1/3rd of EVERY HUMAN ALIVE pings as evil. (If it were substantially less than 1/3rd they'd have an alignment tendancy toward something non-evil.)

You seriously think 1/3rd of everyon alive has committed serious, death worthy, crimes?

There's simply no way consistent with the rules to require that pinging as evil means you are evil enough to justify death.

Kish

2012-01-11, 01:53 PM

Didn't the Rules say you needed a fairly strong amount of Evil to even have enough of an aura to 'ping' as Evil??
No.

I agree with you on the Paladins in SOD. The people they were killing were planning (though most didn't know it) to release the snarl on the good aligned gods and take over. As for wiping out the whole tribe, thats fairly justified too based on teh fact that the red cloak basicly just goes as far down the line as it needed too to keep the plan going. Redcloack had been a priest for about 40 seconds when he suddenly became high priest.
Remarkable. So the presence of the Crimson Mantle is justification for killing any goblin anywhere near it, even toddlers?

How many plans do you have that you don't know about? (It only looks like a Catch 22.)

Mixt

2012-01-11, 02:06 PM

There's also the fact that The Plan wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for the other races constantly butchering goblins for little or no reason, effectively driving goblins to desperation in looking for a way to stop it, only for every attempt to be met with more butchering, eventually leading to the point where they are now willing to risk absolutely everything to put an end to it.

In other words, it's the rest of the world's fault that The Plan exists at all.
It's their own damn fault in the first place, and then when it bites them in the ass they complain about it, before resorting to even more violence and butchering, including those who are not even involved in the first place.

In other words, the other races are all idiots.

resound

2012-01-11, 02:35 PM

Alright! Redcloack rules. Long live the Goblin's revolution.
Master tactician, great at counter espionage.

Is there anything this goblin can't do?

Reach things on top of the refridgerator without a stool... :smallbiggrin:

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 02:38 PM

Reach things on top of the refridgerator without a stool... :smallbiggrin:
Air walk begs to disagree :smallwink:

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 02:40 PM

Notice the distinct lack of, "Must not retreat in the face of enemies with a Challenge Rating three times what would be appropriate for your current group." It's not even a minor infraction; it's no infraction at all.

There are third party splatbooks that cover the paladin's code (and how it might vary from order to order)- but even in, for example, Quintessenial Paladin II, the normal code has it entirely up to the paladin's own discretion when to retreat.

On "how evil do you have to be to ping as evil", in older editions of D&D, it was the case that most evil aligned people only detected as Neutral (except when actually engaged in evil deeds)- and only the worst of them pinged as Evil.

But from 3.0 onward, this was dropped- Detect Evil became capable of picking up anyone of Evil alignment (in the absence of various means of interfering with it).

Mutant Sheep

2012-01-11, 02:41 PM

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 02:45 PM

You think it's beyond question. I agree with you, and believe the comic supports you. And yet, there are some people who do not (the poster to which Beowulf and I responded did not believe Azurite casualties exceeded five figures), which is why the argument bears repeating.

Azure City, before the goblinoid invasion, was supported by large amounts of farmland around it. Not all, or even most, of the "city-state's population" resided within the walls (source: War & XPs).

It's possible that the reason we don't see large amounts of slaves in the city- is that they reside in the farms- guarded by hobgoblins.

t209

2012-01-11, 02:45 PM

There's two gun for the resistance
1. V with his Kobold gun
2. Deus Ex Machinma
3. Life of Brian Ending

Mixt

2012-01-11, 02:59 PM

Yeah, its the other races fault for not hugging every carnivorous fanged guy that would not mind some *insert race here* meat. Goblins do things too, most of them evil, and saying that the Usually Neutral or Good races should be blamed instead of the Usually Evil ones doesn't make any sense.:smallconfused:

Right, because if you spend hundreds of years oppressing, murdering and all around threating an entire species like crap then it's totally not your fault if they eventually snap and go on a roaring rampage of revenge.

Or on a WAY smaller scale, it's totally not the bully's fault if he spends years constantly beating some guy senseless and stripping him of his dignity as a human being at every opportunity, and then one day said guy has had enough and hits back, severely hurting the bully in the process.
Totally not the bully's fault in any way whatsoever.

Or how it's totally not humanity's fault that elephants are now going aggro on human settlements, i mean, we are only poaching them to harvest their body parts, in the process inflicting massive mental trauma on the survivors and massively screwing up their group dynamics.
Nope, totally not the poachers fault the elephants are striking back and goring people to death in a fit of rage.

Nope, not your fault in the slightest.

Mutant Sheep

2012-01-11, 03:03 PM

Or on a WAY smaller scale, it's totally not the bully's fault if he spends years constantly beating some guy senseless and stripping him of his dignity as a human being at every opportunity, and then one day said guy has had enough and hits back, severely hurting the bully in the process.
Totally not the bully's fault in any way whatsoever.
It's less "hitting back" and more "detonating a nuclear warhead". :smallannoyed:

Or how it's totally not humanity's fault that elephants are now going aggro on human settlements, i mean, we are only poaching them to harvest their body parts, in the process inflicting massive mental trauma on the survivors and massively screwing up their group dynamics.
Nope, totally not the poachers fault the elephants are striking back and goring people to death in a fit of rage.
Well then, why doesn't humanity just kill all the elephants except the ones already in captivity? Oh, right. Elephants are hardly very intelligent life, and humanity isn't evil enough to kill everything they don't like. And you just compared elephants to the goblins. I didn't know elephants were going to destroy all of existance because some humans want to provide for their families.

jidasfire

2012-01-11, 03:04 PM

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 03:09 PM

That said, even if Redcloak's account of the history of the "creation of monstrous races" is accurate, a case could be made that the "player races" are less at fault in their actions than the gods were.

With the goblins being given so little in the way of resources that they couldn't even thrive as dirt farmers (by the SOD crayon strips' account) they ended up as raiders and bandits.

Being bandits "to survive" is more understandable than being bandits out of pure greed and cruelty, but from the point of view of the settlements of the "player races" all that matters is that they are the victims of the banditry.

result- they send out the 1st level adventurers- those adventurers start levelling, and as a result become able to face the "higher level monsters"- as the gods wanted.

And the cycle of back-and-forth violence continues.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 03:12 PM

Azure City, before the goblinoid invasion, was supported by large amounts of farmland around it. Not all, or even most, of the "city-state's population" resided within the walls (source: War & XPs).

It's possible that the reason we don't see large amounts of slaves in the city- is that they reside in the farms- guarded by hobgoblins.
Indeed. There's another 250,000 Azurites out there somewhere (Shojo says the population of the polity's around half a million, the Guide to Azure City states about half of those live within the walls), their fates unaccounted for. We never saw them pre-invasion, we never saw them post-invasion. The point is that the Azurites that were living in the city are no longer anywhere to be found.

luc258

2012-01-11, 03:21 PM

Mixt

2012-01-11, 03:22 PM

And there's the core of the problem.

The gods are A-holes, and the Goblins are evil largely because of circumstances and being threated like dirt.

It's a case of "Then Let Me Be Evil" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil) on a species wide scale.

Or in other words, threat someone badly enough, and the abuse they are put through may very well cause them to turn evil.

The constant abuse and harsh environment can turn just about anyone evil.
There are lots of cases of genuinely good people snapping after being subjected to enough abuse.
Apply that to an entire species over a period of centuries and there you go.

This makes it the fault of those dishing out the abuse, which in this case are the so called "Good" or "Neutral" races (But most of all it is the gods fault)

Hamishspence put it way better than i did...

Goosefeather

2012-01-11, 03:32 PM

Rereading the strip, I just noticed a detail that I'd glossed over the first time through -
:redcloak: "I believe one of you is holding onto some fine jewelry that belongs to me."

Not 'us', not 'Xykon', not 'doesn't belong to you', but me.

Lends some credence to the idea that he's not going to simply run to Xykon to hand the phylactery over :smallamused:

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-11, 03:35 PM

Peelee

2012-01-11, 04:00 PM

Everybody cheers for the underdog goblins, but it is not justified in this case.
The plan of the goblins can mean the end of the existence. It needs to be stopped, that's the highest priority and for good reason.
Everything else would be lawful stupid and not lawful good. If that means that a tribe of goblins that harbors red cloak gets killed than that is regretable, but it does not make the paladins evil. It does not make them good either of course.

The other point that some people here make is that the goblins do not have any choice but to use that ritual in order to defend themselves.
I do not agree with this argument.
Fact is, the goblins managed to utterly crush azure city without the ritual.
As demonstrated in this comic they have enough military strength that they can provide security for themselves.
Performing the ritual is therefore not necessary for their goal of achieving savety, all they need is somebody to unite them.

The problem there is that has already happened. The Dark One, before he was a god and was still a mortal goblin, accomplished all that, only to be refuted by the other species in the world and killed. One could argue that Redcloak has succeeded far more than the Dark One has, since he has already won recognition from at least 17 other nations for Gobbotopia, and scored a legitimacy for goblinkind that the Dark One himself failed at.

Beowulf DW

2012-01-11, 04:39 PM

Right, because if you spend hundreds of years oppressing, murdering and all around threating an entire species like crap then it's totally not your fault if they eventually snap and go on a roaring rampage of revenge.

Or on a WAY smaller scale, it's totally not the bully's fault if he spends years constantly beating some guy senseless and stripping him of his dignity as a human being at every opportunity, and then one day said guy has had enough and hits back, severely hurting the bully in the process.
Totally not the bully's fault in any way whatsoever.

Or how it's totally not humanity's fault that elephants are now going aggro on human settlements, i mean, we are only poaching them to harvest their body parts, in the process inflicting massive mental trauma on the survivors and massively screwing up their group dynamics.
Nope, totally not the poachers fault the elephants are striking back and goring people to death in a fit of rage.

Nope, not your fault in the slightest.

Mixt, I must say that the venom I see in your posts unnerves me a bit. You have consistently shown yourself as willing to condemn entire populations for the actions of a very, very small fraction of said population. How is it my fault that elephants are going bonkers? I despise poaching, but there's nothing I can do about it. I, and most others like myself, do not have the skills or the resources necessary to right that wrong. And how do innocent villagers who never even felt antipathy to the elephants feel when they get gored because some jerk no one in that village has ever met shot said elephant's mother. And what of all the people who actively fight the poachers? There are men and women out there in the savanna who are getting into gun fights with the poachers every other day. Do those people deserve to be gored as well?

I'm sorry if I'm being stubborn, but I simply cannot fathom your reasons for the arguments you're making.

toughluck

2012-01-11, 04:42 PM

A sceret order of paladins who few knew about, sent out into the world to kill off any goblins or eliminate any possible threat...real or not...against the gate, which few knew about.

In so doing, they attacked Goblinoids all over the world. Yes, few in AC knew about them, but few of those killed knew or were a threat to the gates.
:smallsigh: You didn't read SoD, did you?
They struck out SPECIFICALLY at wherever the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was. Any 'genocidal crusades' waged by SG ever mentioned by anyone were total fabrications.
True, they seemed oblivious to the true nature of the Crimson Mantle itself, by never taking it to be guarded against any goblin that would try to take it, but I can think of at least three reasons that justify that:
1. The Mantle may have gone missing after every fight -- they may have killed the Bearer, but it was immediately passed onto another cleric.
2. They may have taken it once or twice, but found that it wasn't that unique and there was no point in taking it, since another Bearer appeared soon afterwards.
3. It was just that kind of McGuffin.

His freedom, since the Hobbos sent him to jail. Among other things like petty revenge against those that jailed him.
Well, that makes sense. However, how does he regain freedom exactly? It's not exactly imaginable how they could sneak him back into the city and get him into a favorable position within a short time frame -- he would either have to come in as an outsider, and start from the bottom up, or would have to replace another hobgoblin, which could be suspicious.
And he could blow his cover by roughing up another greenskin when given the occasion.
I'm not saying he would betray them, I'm just saying he would be useless as a spy.

There are a lot of reasons to betray your species. Xykon was an human, after all, and choose to side with goblins against humans, long before his transformation into a Lich.
He didn't care much at that point, though. He just wanted the ultimate power and found the only guy that seemed to offer it.

I don't know if the hobbo was being honest, but it's not a reason to kill him. It would have been a reason to leave him in the cells, or, at most, to knock him unconscious and left behind.
Okay, you convinced me, especially with your latter argument below.

I believe it, among other things because that's basically what his lieutenant's said about the Commander and his views on goblinhood.

The justification given by the Elf is just racism. He did not justify himself with a "we can't afford to take him home". He only justified his acts with "the only good goblin is a dead goblin".

It's not, thus, a Joke, but the justification of a cold-blood murder.
I still think you're reading too much into it, I still see it as gallows humor -- even if he did say it on occasion, I still think it wasn't so much as a tagline, but maybe a frequent quip at best.

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 04:55 PM

:smallsigh: You didn't read SoD, did you?
They struck out SPECIFICALLY at wherever the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was. Any 'genocidal crusades' waged by SG ever mentioned by anyone were total fabrications.

What's said by the paladins in SoD:
"Exterminate the rest and let us be done here" with respect to goblin children is what draws people's ire.

From War & XPs commentary:

"Most damning, though, is a decades-long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods"

Shojo's own account admits:

"Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City gate, no matter how far removed geographically"

toughluck

2012-01-11, 05:06 PM

What's said by the paladins in SoD:
"Exterminate the rest and let us be done here" with respect to goblin children is what draws people's ire.
Well, I would still like to bring up my point about the Crimson Mantle finding its way to another owner one way or another. If they just leave it about, one of the goblins is going to either put it on or take it to another settlement. They just delayed the inevitable.
Which doesn't mean their actions weren't vehemently atrocious. Still, they didn't fall from it, meaning their 12 gods approved.

From War & XPs commentary:

"Most damning, though, is a decades-long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods"

Shojo's own account admits:

"Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City gate, no matter how far removed geographically"
Note how Shojo said:
Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City gate, no matter how far removed geographically
and not:
Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all goblins, no matter how far removed geographically
Does it make a slightest difference?

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 05:08 PM

True- but the fact that they weren't targeted specifically for being goblins, doesn't change the other fact that villages were being wiped out- right down to the children.

EDIT:

Still, they didn't fall from it, meaning their 12 gods approved.

It's been said earlier that The Giant's described how at least some of them might have fallen- without the same dramatic display Miko got.

Kish

2012-01-11, 05:10 PM

Which doesn't mean their actions weren't vehemently atrocious. Still, they didn't fall from it, meaning their 12 gods approved.
Let's allow that for the moment. For the sake of argument.

So.

What?

Why would anyone here care that twelve particular characters in the comic have a warped sense of morality? If it was even a revelation, which it isn't; we could derive that from Shojo's crayon strips.

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 05:14 PM

There is the:

"in core, paladin's don't get their power from the gods but from the forces of law and goodness. No amount of divine approval will stop a paladin from falling if the act was actually evil"
argument.

But I haven't seen it raised in a while- and it fails to take into account the possibility that OoTS doesn't work that way.

toughluck

2012-01-11, 05:16 PM

Let's allow that for the moment. For the sake of argument.

So.

What?

Why would anyone here care that twelve particular characters in the comic have a warped sense of morality? If it was even a revelation, which it isn't; we could derive that from Shojo's crayon strips.
Because this is a fantasy comic, in which the ultimate authority are the gods? Yeah, you might not like it, but the morality is not ambiguous and does not evolve -- it's literally the will of the gods.
Let's, allow your version for the moment. For the sake of argument.
People do things which they feel are morally superior. They get smitten by their gods. End of story.

It's been said earlier that The Giant's described how at least some of them might have fallen- without the same dramatic display Miko got.
You would imagine that if they saw other paladins fall due to exterminating innocent goblins, they would be more careful. Or at least those who fell would be careful to warn others not to go beyond their orders.

Mixt

2012-01-11, 05:24 PM

Mixt, I must say that the venom I see in your posts unnerves me a bit. You have consistently shown yourself as willing to condemn entire populations for the actions of a very, very small fraction of said population. How is it my fault that elephants are going bonkers? I despise poaching, but there's nothing I can do about it. I, and most others like myself, do not have the skills or the resources necessary to right that wrong. And how do innocent villagers who never even felt antipathy to the elephants feel when they get gored because some jerk no one in that village has ever met shot said elephant's mother. And what of all the people who actively fight the poachers? There are men and women out there in the savanna who are getting into gun fights with the poachers every other day. Do those people deserve to be gored as well?

I'm sorry if I'm being stubborn, but I simply cannot fathom your reasons for the arguments you're making.

To put it simply, between The News, History and personal experience i have effectively been given the belief that the vast majority of the human race is either fundamentally evil or to stupid to do anything about it, effectively giving the evil people free reign to do whatever the hell they feel like.

This has made me rather bitter and cynical, which has also started a downward spiral of rage and madness.
Which i suspect is slowly causing me to develop an attitude similiar to that of Judge Nemo from Disgaea 4 (Omnicidal maniac driven by overwhelming rage towards humanity, those who played the game know what i'm talking about)

That is likely a contributing factor to the amount of venom in my posts.
Add in a number of psychological disorders like autism and ADHD...:smalleek:

Also, there's this thing called balancing the karmic books.
In this case, the goblins have several centuries of bad karma to make up for, and they are cashing in on it.
Until that debt is paid off the rest of the world had better shut it and take it.

Also, the general attitude of elves really pushes my berserk button, the whole "I'm an elf so everything i do is automatically justified, also, i'm inherently better than you" displayed by basically every elf ever makes me want to see them all burn.
Incidents like the Familice throws rocket fuel on the fire.

As for my feelings on V, there are no words that can even come close to describing them, hate, loathe, omni-loathe, nothing comes close.
I wish that bastard an eternity of infinite suffering, to be condemned for eternity to a place so horrible it makes Hell seem like paradise in comparison.
To be constantly violated, humiliated, stripped of all dignity, tortured beyond all languages ability to describe for all eternity, even long after the universe itself ceases to be!
And honestly, even that wouldn't be enough, but i simply cannot think off anything worse.
That's the price of the Familicide!

Yes, i'm filled with a lot of rage, and everyone and everything is constantly adding more fuel to the fire, never bothering with even trying to remove it.

And that concludes my self-analyzis.

Kish

2012-01-11, 05:25 PM

Because this is a fantasy comic, in which the ultimate authority are the gods?

Um...what?

Yeah, you might not like it, but the morality is not ambiguous and does not evolve -- it's literally the will of the gods.

The will of a bunch of characters who have a great deal of power in their world and are presented in ways ranging from "squabbling, petty and childish" to "vicious," true enough. I'm not at all clear on why you think it matters, and your only answer seems to be tautologies, so...

Let's, allow your version for the moment. For the sake of argument.
People do things which they feel are morally superior. They get smitten by their gods. End of story.
No, that would seem to still be your version.

It would also seem to be a "might makes right" argument, an appeal to authority where the authorities are fictional characters whose author doesn't seem to esteem them very much, proof by assertion...and those are just the aspects that spring right out at me.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-11, 05:26 PM

You would imagine that if they saw other paladins fall due to exterminating innocent goblins, they would be more careful. Or at least those who fell would be careful to warn others not to go beyond their orders.As the Giant has also said, nothing in the rule books even say a paladin is aware that they have fallen. Miko only got a big display because she screwed up that badly, and her clothes faded because they were designed to lose their magic once a non-paladin equips them. It's possible the Sapphire Guard did not invent such equipment yet (or, going by the comic's lack of 4th wall, they didn't notice them fade because it was in greyscale) and thus they wouldn't have noticed other paladins falling.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 05:30 PM

Because this is a fantasy comic, in which the ultimate authority are the gods?

No. The ultimate authority aren't the gods. It's the Author of the fantasy comic.

And the Giant stated plainly that Azure City's fall was Karma Rebbutal for the Twelve Gods sanctioning Soon's genocide.

hamishspence

2012-01-11, 05:31 PM

A case could be made that the Sapphire Guard has had bad karma (in fact, it's worded in a similar way in War & XPs) but the fall of Azure City more than paid it off.

Don't Split the Party:

"But it was important to show that, for all their misguided excesses, the Azurites were still the Good Guys. O-Chul is the living symbol of everything right about the Sapphire Guard. Determined without being manipulative, righteous without being holier-than-thou, and compassionate without being judgemental. He's the paladin, stripped down to basics (and tighty whities)."

AniThyng

2012-01-11, 06:00 PM

As the Giant has also said, nothing in the rule books even say a paladin is aware that they have fallen. Miko only got a big display because she screwed up that badly, and her clothes faded because they were designed to lose their magic once a non-paladin equips them. It's possible the Sapphire Guard did not invent such equipment yet (or, going by the comic's lack of 4th wall, they didn't notice them fade because it was in greyscale) and thus they wouldn't have noticed other paladins falling.

Are you sure it wasn't "There was no particular reason to play up the paladin's falling because this was being told from Redcloak's POV and it simply isn't relevant to him, plus showing that cheapens the moment we see Miko fall for ourselves [paraphrased]"

That being said, I think Hamishspence nails it with the quote from Don't Split the Party - people seem determined to ascribe the worst possible fates to the Azurites and Elves, but even the karmic scales don't go that far.

And then for what its worth, even the Azurites present to witness the Elf commander tossing the goblin off the building were aware that Thanh, a known Paladin, would not neccessarily approve.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Chobarth

2012-01-11, 06:01 PM

I fail to see:

1) How raiding an enemy prison to free it's captives and killing one of the captives because you don't like his species, is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation" of a stealth/guerrilla operation.

Um, because you are at war with that species and responsible for the well being of your squad? I won't argue that he could have chosen a different path a far as keeping the prisoner alive - but again, given his military role and persona why would he? Humble humanitarians (Species-tarians?) aren't chosen to lead guerrilla squads for a mission like his. He may very well have been chosen BECAUSE of his Goblinism...

2) How executing a captive after the fight is over, you are in control of the field, and can totally afford to carry him to your base (not to mention that said captive was not a member of the enemy fighting force to begin with), is "reasonable conduct for the role and situation".

Same answer, plus, the end goal is to retake the city which means killing or driving away every hobgoblin currently there. You can argue against his decision, and describe why it made better military sense to choose a different path, but it wasn't unreasonable for the Elf Commander.

3) Even in the event that you must execute someone, I fail to see how reviling in the action, giving the poor guy false hope, making fun of it, and justifying it with pure racist arguments, is the dire-but-neccessary thing to do as opposite of a quick and neat throat-cutting.

Your typo confused me for a moment, since actually you're the one reviling the character. But yes, I reveled in episode 707 - I enjoy gallows humor. We differ on this obviously, but while a quick clean death would have been less offending to viewers, I'm not asserting that Elf Commander was a nice guy.
He seems like a guy who enjoys playing with his food ("Feline Commander?")

Finally:
4) Note that the Elf Commander never justified his action with a "we need to kill him because we can't carry him with us as he MAY be a spy". He justified his action with a "he's a goblin and thus only good for being killed".

and
5) Please realize that you may have loved that murdering scene as much as you like, but it's narrative purpose was to serve as the setup for today's Elf Implosion scene.

#4: Again, 1st answer. The Giant created a character and situation that carries a great deal of 'off scene' knowledge and awareness. The Elf Commander didn't need to verbally justify his actions to his squad or the resistance (except maybe the Paladin). #5: Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't find it that cut and dried. The narrative purpose may have been nothing more than a bone thrown to the Giants more blood-thirsty fans (each scene actually). Or Both. Or Neither. Either way, the narrative purpose doesn't alter my enjoyment.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 06:37 PM

Um, because you are at war with that species and responsible for the well being of your squad? I won't argue that he could have chosen a different path a far as keeping the prisoner alive - but again, given his military role and persona why would he? Humble humanitarians (Species-tarians?) aren't chosen to lead guerrilla squads for a mission like his. He may very well have been chosen BECAUSE of his Goblinism...

First of all, the Azurites aren't at war with a species. They are at war with a Tribe.

Second, it's not a mater of humanitarism. It's a matter of commiting war crimes. Good-aligned (or even Neutral-Aligned) leaders don't allow his soldiers to commit War Crimes. Much less send War Criminals to lead squads. And don't bother to argue against the criminal nature of the Elf Commander's action, because the Resistance members automatically knew (and expressed) that they would have to hide it from the Paladin who leads them.

Same answer, plus, the end goal is to retake the city which means killing or driving away every hobgoblin currently there. You can argue against his decision, and describe why it made better military sense to choose a different path, but it wasn't unreasonable for the Elf Commander.

The goal is accomplished by driving away every member of the enemy military. Not by slaughtering civilians, much less prisoners.

I enjoy gallows humor. We differ on this obviously, but while a quick clean death would have been less offending to viewers, I'm not asserting that Elf Commander was a nice guy.
He seems like a guy who enjoys playing with his food ("Feline Commander?")

Do you know who also likes playing with his food? Hannibal Lecter. It's funny, until you are the food he is playing with.

So, basically, you describe the Elf Commander as a psychopath ("likes to play with his food") war criminal (as he murders unarmed, civilian prisoners), and then ask us to be sympathetic with him.

Sorry, but I enjoyed his death, and I don't feel guilty for it.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-11, 06:50 PM

Are you sure it wasn't "There was no particular reason to play up the paladin's falling because this was being told from Redcloak's POV and it simply isn't relevant to him, plus showing that cheapens the moment we see Miko fall for ourselves [paraphrased]"That's the narrative reason. I'm stating the in-universe reason he gave (combined with his commentary on Miko's fall in the book).

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 06:52 PM

Once again, I concede that killing the hobgoblin wasn't the right thing to do. It was, at best, amoral and tactically expedient. I also freely concede that elf commander hates hobgoblins. He's racist, and has a really cruel sense of humor. Cruel as in, "hey, let's trick this blankety-blank into thinking he's got a shot, and then throw him off a building while delivering the punchline."

But making a racist comment is not morally equivalent to ethnic cleansing. Yes, elf commander dehumanizes the people he fights against. He's also fighting against an army that destroyed a free city, tried to stamp out its culture, and killed, enslaved, or drove off its people. And he's doing so at great personal risk for no readily apparent personal benefit. There's easier ways to kill goblins and level than right under the nose of presumably the most powerful goblin in existence, an epic lich, and an entire hobgoblin army.

Eventually, elf commander does find himself cornered by Redcloak. And when he does so, he attacks fearlessly, in spite of having to know he has roughly a snowball's chance in a very warm place, and is ultimately killed.

I really don't understand cheering his death in service to a good cause because he was flawed, even deeply flawed.

Because, honestly, who's left? O-Chul? But then he's a high ranking member of the sapphire guard, so I suppose he would have it coming too.

Gnoman

2012-01-11, 07:01 PM

In fact, it's rare to find many examples of actual weaknesses of elves other than:

Elves are generally a little more frail than you, when their thousands-years-old elven enchantments and superior elven equipment and plot armor actually fail them
Elves, as a group/nation/race, are sometimes a little slow to act/react because they know so much more than you and thus have so much more to consider than you possibly could
Elves know they are better than you, and will remind you of it

I'd be open to a list of not-so-relatively-poor writers/works that depict elves significantly different from the basic archetype of Elves Are Better Than You (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter), given how common adherence actually is.

Salvatore's Demonwars septology is an excellent example, for one. Some of the Dragonlance novels are excellent as well. That is, of course, just off the top of my head. There's more, but I can't remember them at the moment.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 07:01 PM

I really don't understand cheering his death in service to a good cause because he was flawed, even deeply flawed.

Belkar is also in service of a good cause and I'll cheer his death, when it finally happens.

Subzero008

2012-01-11, 07:03 PM

Right, because if you spend hundreds of years oppressing, murdering and all around threating an entire species like crap then it's totally not your fault if they eventually snap and go on a roaring rampage of revenge.

And what exactly did the azurites do to the goblins? The saphire guard killed them, and even then Giant has stated that some have fallen as a result. The so-called oppressors are innocent people, CHILDREN may have been killed(ever see any city without kids? and there are no child slaves). Most azurites have never seen a hobbo in their lives?

Or on a WAY smaller scale, it's totally not the bully's fault if he spends years constantly beating some guy senseless and stripping him of his dignity as a human being at every opportunity, and then one day said guy has had enough and hits back, severely hurting the bully in the process.
Totally not the bully's fault in any way whatsoever.

I'm going to have to wipe all that sarcasm with a mop.

Or how it's totally not humanity's fault that elephants are now going aggro on human settlements, i mean, we are only poaching them to harvest their body parts, in the process inflicting massive mental trauma on the survivors and massively screwing up their group dynamics.
Nope, totally not the poachers fault the elephants are striking back and goring people to death in a fit of rage.

Nope, not your fault in the slightest.

So you pin the blame of the actions of individuals on entire populations.
{scrubbed}

dancrilis

2012-01-11, 07:03 PM

Because, honestly, who's left? O-Chul? But then he's a high ranking member of the sapphire guard, so I suppose he would have it coming too.

Indeed he would, what with he imprisoning people without trial, attacking without warning, pickpocketing, causing emotional distress, lying, and speaking ill of the dead.

However I have no real problem with the Elf Commander, however I have no problem with him dying either.
We have no backstory for him at all, so as far as we know hi only character defining action was to kill a hobgoblin as a joke.

His reasons for being here - we can guess, but we don't know.
His reasons for charging Redcloak - we can guess, but we don't know.

He could have done both out of spite for the goblin, and treasure, seeing himself as an adventurer that can get away with anything because the universe (GM) is on his side even as he annoys said universe (GM) by being somewhat unpleasant.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 07:14 PM

Belkar is also in service of a good cause and I'll cheer his death, when it finally happens.

That's very pithy and all, but there are levels between O-Chul and Belkar. I think it's a safe bet to say most people fall within them.

Let me ask you this -- why do think elf commander was in Azure city?

Why did they lead the raid on the prison?

Why was he risking his life so far from home?

You're free to judge him for murdering the hobgoblin. But you shouldn't just pretend everything else the elves did never happened.

He was kind of a jerk, but he died trying to free an enslaved city. Even from what little we know, that makes him very different from Belkar. Belkar tagged along for raids to free slaves because he was bored, couldn't leave the city, and enjoyed killing things.

If you want to argue the elves were just there because they liked killing goblins, you're free to make that argument. But I don't think it meshes very well with the facts they have.

Chobarth

2012-01-11, 07:14 PM

So much for your 10 foot pole. I knew you weren't done with this subject...

First of all, the Azurites aren't at war with a species. They are at war with a Tribe.

Second, it's not a mater of humanitarism. It's a matter of commiting war crimes. Good-aligned (or even Neutral-Aligned) leaders don't allow his soldiers to commit War Crimes. Much less send War Criminals to lead squads. And don't bother to argue against the criminal nature of the Elf Commander's action, because the Resistance members automatically knew (and expressed) that they would have to hide it from the Paladin who leads them.

The goal is accomplished by driving away every member of the enemy military. Not by slaughtering civilians, much less prisoners.

Do you know who also likes playing with his food? Hannibal Lecter. It's funny, until you are the food he is playing with.

So, basically, you describe the Elf Commander as a psychopath ("likes to play with his food") war criminal (as he murders unarmed, civilian prisoners), and then ask us to be sympathetic with him.

Sorry, but I enjoyed his death, and I don't feel guilty for it.

Hmmm. I think we've slipped into a misunderstanding here. I've never asked anyone to be sympathetic towards the Elf Commander. What I thought we were discussing is that you thought his actions weren't justifiable - and I say they were.

I'll concede war with Tribe, not Species - but it makes little difference as the tribe is all of one Genus and Elf Commander likely wouldn't differentiate anyway. He isn't a fan of Goblins, clearly.

In my head, all the hobgoblins ARE members of their military. But I suppose the city has been free-standing long enough to attract non-combatant goblins at this point. But as Haley said, 'that will be one less goblin the resistance will need to deal with later'. Killing him may have been a poor military decision, but prima facie the guy is hardly a war criminal. (Note - any discussion of war crimes is going to devolve into politics / philosophy and beyond the scope of this forum - I will not engage and agree to disagree with you on this point.)

I don't think you have a good grasp on what constitutes a pyschopath either. The Elf Commander's scenes don't support that view with a shred of observational evidence.

He executed a member of the faction with which he is at war. You didn't enjoy his snarky attitude carrying the sentence out, and many of us did (agree to disagree). You think his action is unjustifiable - no. You're wrong. Unconsciousable perhaps, but hardly unjustifiable and Not a crime. The Elf Commander doesn't (umm, didn't...) answer to Thanh and I doubt he'd have a problem telling him to his face what happened. Its the Azurites, accustomed for decades to operate under the radar of the pious (and sometimes insane) Paladins who suggest that.

As far as you enjoying his death, how is that any better or different than me enjoying the death of the hobgoblin? I don't actually mind that the resistance was killed. It was less believable that Redcloak wouldn't deal with the situation once they became MORE THAN opportunistic food raiders, and the entire arc has served the story narrative well. I do hope that Niu survived (she was the one who called to retreat IMO, not bumbling Thanh) since she has some ranks in Hide hopefully.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 07:20 PM

However I have no real problem with the Elf Commander, however I have no problem with him dying either.
We have no backstory for him at all, so as far as we know hi only character defining action was to kill a hobgoblin as a joke.

His reasons for being here - we can guess, but we don't know.
His reasons for charging Redcloak - we can guess, but we don't know.

He could have done both out of spite for the goblin, and treasure, seeing himself as an adventurer that can get away with anything because the universe (GM) is on his side even as he annoys said universe (GM) by being somewhat unpleasant.

I'm actually on the same page. Upon reading the strip I wasn't all "oh no elf commander is dead he was my fav!" I just didn't get all the celebration over it.

As for why he was there, yes, most of what we say is speculation, but one set of speculations makes a lot more sense than the other. The elves arriving out of greed might make sense if they weren't too sharp, but as is, the risk seems very high and the rewards really low, which given the elves general competence, seems to weigh against greed and leveling up as being motivations.

That's why I came to the conclusion that, despite their ruthlessness, they were there for the right reasons. If it was all about exp and killing goblins, there would've been a lot easier ways of going about it.

Chobarth

2012-01-11, 07:21 PM

ti'esar

2012-01-11, 07:36 PM

That's very pithy and all, but there are levels between O-Chul and Belkar. I think it's a safe bet to say most people fall within them.

Let me ask you this -- why do think elf commander was in Azure city?

Why did they lead the raid on the prison?

Why was he risking his life so far from home?

You're free to judge him for murdering the hobgoblin. But you shouldn't just pretend everything else the elves did never happened.

He was kind of a jerk, but he died trying to free an enslaved city. Even from what little we know, that makes him very different from Belkar. Belkar tagged along for raids to free slaves because he was bored, couldn't leave the city, and enjoyed killing things.

If you want to argue the elves were just there because they liked killing goblins, you're free to make that argument. But I don't think it meshes very well with the facts they have.

Personally, the impression I got was that the EC was not there just to kill goblins, but neither was he there out of personal altruism - my understanding was that Teams Peregrine and Harrier were (para)military units, sent by whatever the elven government is to assist the Resistance. He died fighting in a good cause, but he wasn't exactly selfless - he was following orders.

Kish

2012-01-11, 07:46 PM

Yes. Well said.

Elf Commander was a very common arch-type; and more than that, he was exactly the type of personality - warts and all - that allows others to get all in a bunch over "innocent civilians". Think of Jack Nicklaus character in
A Few Good Men. The general would have tossed the guy off the roof as well... (before you point out that he DID commit a crime in the movie, he was charged with the responsibility of causing the death of one of his own - not an enemy on a raid)
Argumentum ad movium?

The world does not, does not need genocidal racists. He did nothing positive that a less racist commander could not have done.

To be clear, I am not criticizing his portrayal at all, as I believe he is exactly the repulsive character Rich meant him to be.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 07:47 PM

Personally, the impression I got was that the EC was not there just to kill goblins, but neither was he there out of personal altruism - my understanding was that Teams Peregrine and Harrier were (para)military units, sent by whatever the elven government is to assist the Resistance. He died fighting in a good cause, but he wasn't exactly selfless - he was following orders.

I also figure the elves are some kind of elven military special forces. I was thinking along the lines of such units consisting of volunteers, and that sort of reflects on their character as well. It's even possible that they specifically volunteered the mission, which wouldn't be unheard given the extreme risk, but then we don't know enough to say one way or the either.

I guess I'm just inclined to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, what with his having paid gruesomely for his trangressions.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 08:00 PM

The world does not, does not need genocidal racists. He did nothing positive that a less racist commander could not have done.

To be clear, I am not criticizing his portrayal at all, as I believe he is exactly the repulsive character Rich meant him to be.

I think we're better off arguing about what we think and observe rather than what we think Rich really thinks. I'm not Rich Burlew, you're not Rich Burlew.

As I said, we don't know a whole lot about elf commander. He could be an idealistic guy who joined the army for the best of reasons, volunteered for the special forces in order to do good, over time became bitter and jaded with what he saw, but nonetheless retained enough of his original idealism to volunteer to help the Azurites. He could also be a violent type who drifted into the army because he was good at fighting, volunteered for special forces because he liked the excitement, and didn't really much care about helping the sapphire so much as living on the edge, volunteering instead for the opportunity for violence and excitement.

Both explanations are purely speculative. Both fit just fine with the facts. Neither is as good a person as O-Chul; neither is as bad a person as Belkar. I would guess the truth is somewhere in between, but there's no way for us to know. But either way, I don't get cheering for his death.

As for the genocidal racist part, you're reaching. Sure, he's racist. And I think we can all agree that jokes that have potentially genocidal punchlines are in poor taste. (Particularly when they accompany a murder.)

There's a difference, though between saying "the only good goblin is a dead goblin" and actually wanting to kill all goblins of all ages throughout the world.

Better dead than red was a common expression at one point, for example, but I doubt everyone who used it seriously wished to kill every single communist on the face of the earth.

ti'esar

2012-01-11, 08:02 PM

I guess I'm just inclined to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, what with his having paid gruesomely for his trangressions.

I've seen a couple of people say things to this effect, and it confuses me - I don't think Implosion is really that "gruesome" a way to die. Visually, it's horrific, even in stick-figure style. But it's also almost instantaneous. I suspect the reason there's a renewed debate on the commander's morality is because of the people cheering his demise, not because anything in the strip itself makes him particularly more or less sympathetic.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 08:09 PM

There are plenty of worse ways to go, I guess. And I'd feel the same if he had died neatly and instantaneously. He died bravely for a good cause, and so the "I hate that guy" thing just seems badly out of place.

Whatever he did wrong, he paid for it, in other words, so why focus on it?

I guess that's where I'm coming from.

dancrilis

2012-01-11, 08:10 PM

The world does not, does not need genocidal racists.

That is somewhat bigoted, genocidal racists are people too, and just because they might have a different opinion to you does not make them any less worthy of life, love and liberty.

Further in a lot of fictional worlds genocidal racists are in fact needed for the narrative to occur as intended (depending on your belief structure the same could be said about the real world).

Kish

2012-01-11, 08:11 PM

As for the genocidal racist part, you're reaching. Sure, he's racist. And I think we can all agree that jokes that have potentially genocidal punchlines are in poor taste. (Particularly when they accompany a murder.)

No. We can't. "In poor taste" is not the way to describe them.

You keep saying "worse than O-Chul but better than Belkar," but you seem to be arguing that he would need to be as bad as Belkar for you to understand why people are happy to see him dead. He was a terrible person. I don't particularly care why he became a terrible person, any more than I do for Belkar. The world has one fewer genocidal racist in it. Ding-dong, the commander of Team Peregrine is dead, and why does anyone regret it?

There's a difference, though between saying "the only good goblin is a dead goblin" and actually wanting to kill all goblins of all ages throughout the world.
In that he might, possibly, not actually choose to implement his stated philosophy if he had a chance. This is utterly speculative and, thus, meaningless. In the absence of any evidence for him being an embittered idealist or whatever, I treat him as exactly what he told us he is.

That is somewhat bigoted, genocidal racists are people too, and just because they might have a different opinion to you does not make them any less worthy of life, love and liberty.
...Bigoted? Oh wow. You know, I knew someone a while ago who joked that being "prejudiced" against axe-murdering psychopaths was wrong. Difference? He was joking.

And "a different opinion to me"? So you're asserting that "genocidal racism is wrong" is a private, insupportable belief of mine, no more valid than "genocidal racism is right." Um...yeah.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 08:29 PM

Let me ask you this -- why do think elf commander was in Azure city?

Why did they lead the raid on the prison?

Why was he risking his life so far from home?
(...)
Belkar tagged along for raids to free slaves because he was bored, couldn't leave the city, and enjoyed killing things.

Judging by the little we have been shown about the Elf Commander, I'm inclined to think that his motives were very close to those of Belkar.

If you want to argue the elves (...)

Stop right there. I'm not talking about "the elves". I'm talking about a particular character who happens to be an elf.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 08:30 PM

No. We can't. "In poor taste" is not the way to describe them.

Understatement. The point was "we all agree that kind of joke is bad."

In that he might, possibly, not actually choose to implement his stated philosophy if he had a chance. This is utterly speculative and, thus, meaningless. In the absence of any evidence for him being an embittered idealist or whatever, I treat him as exactly what he told us he is.

You're speculating every bit as much as I am. He said "The only good goblin is a dead goblin." He never said "I want to kill all goblins everywhere, from the little children on up." That's you speculating.

Guy makes a racist comment. I take from it that he's racist.

You assume he just literally wants to kill every goblin in the world.

It's entirely possible that you're right, but absent any other evidence, which given such an extreme worldview you'd expect would come up, even in the limited amount of time we see the elves, I think it's a pretty big stretch.

You keep saying "worse than O-Chul but better than Belkar," but you seem to be arguing that he would need to be as bad as Belkar for you to understand why people are happy to see him dead.

Not as bad as Belkar, no. But someone has to be pretty bad, and I have to know they're pretty bad, rather than just extrapolate wildly from one action made during a daring raid that freed a prison full of civilians from slavery and death, before I start breaking out the champagne.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 08:36 PM

Judging by the little we have been shown about the Elf Commander, I'm inclined to think that his motives were very close to those of Belkar.

Why? I've explained my take on it and my thinking. I've noticed that many of the people arguing the other side -- I haven't kept all the names straight, I'm sorry to say -- have completely ignored all the good the elf commander was involved in.

I keep seeing extreme statements that ignore all the good being done and all the risks that were taken to achieve itt and I'm just curious to see what the reasoning is.

Stop right there. I'm not talking about "the elves". I'm talking about a particular character who happens to be an elf.

Easy now. I was talking about five or six particular characters who happened to be elves -- team peregrine -- but the same point stands if it's limited to the commander. Here you go:

If you want to argue the Elf Commander was just there because he liked killing goblins, you're free to make that argument. But I don't think it meshes very well with the facts they have.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 08:44 PM

So much for your 10 foot pole. I knew you weren't done with this subject...

The debate I'm avoiding is about if something is morally justified. Which is the type of debate banned on those forums.

The points I'm gonna to argue about in this message revolve around your wrong assertion that the murdered hobgoblin was a member of the enemy faction, the legal status of the Elf Commander's action, and the psychology of said commander.

In my head, all the hobgoblins ARE members of their military.

Irrelevant as that particular Hobgoblin was no longer part of the hobgoblin side, but a prisoner of it. Double irrelevant as, even if he was part of the enemy side, killing prisoners is still a crime.

I don't think you have a good grasp on what constitutes a pyschopath either. The Elf Commander's scenes don't support that view with a shred of observational evidence.

Killing chained, unarmed people while telling jokes... charging against an enemy when even the Paladin (who is immune to Fear) has second thoughts... anyway, if you describe him as "someone who likes to play with his food", what do you expect me to think?

He executed a member of the faction with which he is at war.

He executed someone who was not a member of the faction with which he was at war with. As proven by the fact that he had been imprisoned by the faction with which the azurites are at war with.

But as Haley said, 'that will be one less goblin the resistance will need to deal with later'.

As said Goblin was in prison and no longer part of the enemy army, it was not "one less goblin the resistance will need to deal with later", but rather "one less prisoner the enemy needs to feed or worry about".

hardly unjustifiable and Not a crime.

Then why they need to lie about it to the Paladin?

TheBST

2012-01-11, 08:47 PM

So, in other words, this has become the 'Is cheering for the death of the Elf Commander morally justified?' Thread.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 08:51 PM

Why? I've explained my take on it and my thinking. I've noticed that many of the people arguing the other side -- I haven't kept all the names straight, I'm sorry to say -- have completely ignored all the good the elf commander was involved in.

I keep seeing extreme statements that ignore all the good being done and all the risks that were taken to achieve itt and I'm just curious to see what the reasoning is.

(...)

If you want to argue the Elf Commander was just there because he liked killing goblins, you're free to make that argument. But I don't think it meshes very well with the facts they have.

The only character-defining things we have seen the Elf Commander do in the Comic are:

1) Taking a prisoner out of the line and brutally murdering him just because he was a goblinoid, while telling jokes about it.

2) Recklessly charging Redcloack for having killed 3 elves, without giving a **** about the other 20 human corpses.

Ok, I'll concede: Belkar wouldn't give a **** about someone killing 3 halflings.

Alex Warlorn

2012-01-11, 08:57 PM

If I wasn't killed mid-sentence and all I had was some parting words to Redcloak they would be, "My one comfort is knowing that karma is going to come and bite you in the rear!"

Also, I wonder if one messenger boy to nowhere is going to killed where he stands because Redcloak A) Wants revenge for his humiliation, B) Is a (Former) Sapphire Guard and thus Redcloak has all the reason he needs or C) He learned his lesson about keeping prisoners alive who know Smite Evil.

It also possible being the "last" Sapphire guard alive (not that RC knows there's more) he's going to kill the Paladin as slowly and horribly as possible. Or because he fears Xykon more than he wants revenge at this point, he obeys Redcloak's order to be ready to teleport to the location of the next Gate in 12 seconds of finding RC's holy symbol.

It's also possible that's what saves a tiny handful of victims lives (well, hopefully). I'm just hoping that our messenger to Nowhere at least get at least one good shot in to Redcloak before he dies or manages to get out alive.

Alex Warlorn

2012-01-11, 08:59 PM

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 09:07 PM

The only character-defining things we have seen the Elf Commander do in the Comic are:

1) Taking a prisoner out of the line and brutally executing him just because he was a goblinoid, while telling jokes about it.

2) Recklessly charging Redcloack for having killed 3 elves, without giving a **** about the other 20 human corpses.

Ok, I'll concede: Belkar wouldn't give a **** about someone killing 3 halflings.

That's where we disagree, I suppose. I'd say we actually know a good deal more.

1) He has the title of commander.

2) He has a second in command that he refers to as "lieutenant."

3) He leads a disciplined elven team.

4) That team is aiding the resistance in particular and the azurites in general by a) participating in a raid to free a large number of imprisoned Azurites, most of whom are presumably civilians; b) helping steal and attempting to destroy the phylactery of a vastly powerful being of pure evil that intends to conquer the world

5) That these activities are extremely risky.

6) That he dies bravely trying to attack a goblin cleric involved in a plot that could potentially destroy the world

As far as the hobgoblin goes, I've already said I didn't think it was right the thing to do. Still, it isn't fair to say it was just because he was a hobgoblin -- the commander also mentioned the possibility that he was a plant, and the high likelihood if he wasn't that he would betray them. So yeah, not a good act, but you're overstating your case a bit I think.

And as far as the "every elf" line, you're reading into it too much. Odds are he knew the elves he teleported in with much better than the Azurites he had worked with for a relatively brief period and was thus more strongly affected by their deaths.

It's speculation, yes, but unlike your speculation -- he didn't care about the humans -- it doesn't contradict why the commander was even there.

I think the problem is that you're just ignoring everything we know about the commander aside from a single incident during a guerrilla campaign.

ti'esar

2012-01-11, 09:22 PM

Agreed. At this point, I just hope karma pays back Redcloak.

I'm not rooting for Redcloak here, but I don't think this is an action he really needs karmic payback for - certainly not compared to other things he's done. This is war, and guerrilla war at that. I don't see anything particularly questionable about his actions here.

And as far as the "every elf" line, you're reading into it too much. Odds are he knew the elves he teleported in with much better than the Azurites he had worked with for a relatively brief period and was thus more strongly affected by their deaths.

Yeah, that line doesn't really win him any morality points, but it doesn't cost him any either.

6) That he dies bravely trying to attack a goblin cleric involved in a plot that could potentially destroy the world

This, I do disagree with. When the paladin wants to run, you really ought to listen. Whether the Resistance survivors could have gotten away is doubtful to begin with., but thanks to the commander charging in, it's all but impossible. It wasn't brave so much as stupid.

rewinn

2012-01-11, 09:26 PM

A few thoughts:

Redcloak shows himself a better war leader than anyone in the Resistance, including the professional Elves, because RC considered the possibility of polymorphed spies and the Resistance didn't.

The Resistance screwed up by not letting us know their names. On this basis, I predict Thanh and Niu may survive, to be tortured and humiliated by RC and Tsikiko. They may come to prefer to have died quickly; OTOH they may become Mitd's new BFF's.

Unless there is some twist involving Niu Hiding In Shadows and pickpocketing the bauble (...something RC is probably thinking about ...) Team Evil is going to hit the road, Jack, for Gerard's Gate. Windy Canyon Air Traffic Control is about to be overwhelmed.

Doesn't Implosion have a Fortitude save? You'd think at least one of RC's maximum four victims would make it, if the elves were a properly equipped commando team. But perhaps RC is buffed there too.

The polymorphed spy implied that RC more-or-less expected the Resistance to hit the prison. It would be interesting to know whether the defense screwups (e.g. "Dancing Knights") was by design (...which would require suicidally dedicated hobgoblins...) or whether RC staffed the whole thing with Expendables. It reminds me of "Shogun" where Toranaga has the guards who failed to prevent the burning of Blackthorn's ship executed, even though he had secretly ordered the burning; he just made sure the guards were a bunch suspected of treachery against him: two problems solved at once! In the OOTS/prisonbreak case, RC's reaction to Tsukiko's conversion of the guards' bodies into undead may be extra poignant if he felt responsible for their deaths by staffing the prison strongly enough to look safe but not strongly enough to actually be safe.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 09:30 PM

I think the problem is that you're just ignoring everything we know about the commander aside from a single incident during a guerrilla campaign.

The problem is that all those (debatable) things you have listed about the Elf Commander doesn't differentiate him from every other member of the Elf team, or the Resistance. He could have been there for altruistic reasons, or for the money and XP, or driven by hate. We don't know.

The "single incident" is, in fact, the only scene the Giant has invested in developing the character of the Elf Commander. A scene that doesn't portraits him in very good light, at all.

Kish

2012-01-11, 09:37 PM

The Pilgrim

2012-01-11, 09:37 PM

Doesn't Implosion have a Fortitude save? You'd think at least one of RC's maximum four victims would make it, if the elves were a properly equipped commando team. But perhaps RC is buffed there too.

Interesting enough, elves have a -2 racial adjustment to Constitution (the attribute that governs Fortitude saves).

I know that Class and Level have a greater impact on the bonus to Fortitude saves, but you never know when a +1 or -1 is going to save the day (ask the High Priest of the Twelve Gods).

Murray

2012-01-11, 09:50 PM

That's where we disagree, I suppose. I'd say we actually know a good deal more.

1) He has the title of commander.

2) He has a second in command that he refers to as "lieutenant."

3) He leads a disciplined elven team.

4) That team is aiding the resistance in particular and the azurites in general by a) participating in a raid to free a large number of imprisoned Azurites, most of whom are presumably civilians; b) helping steal and attempting to destroy the phylactery of a vastly powerful being of pure evil that intends to conquer the world

5) That these activities are extremely risky.

6) That he dies bravely trying to attack a goblin cleric involved in a plot that could potentially destroy the world

6) - Amended: He died ordering a rash, desperate suicide charge against a superior enemy, instead of considering more sane and successful strategies.

Had he and his lieutenant died while ordering the rest of the resistance to escape with the phylactery, that would've been heroic. Instead, he threw away the chance to preserve a major victory to pursue what appears to be more of a grudge match than a real objective. So not only was he a fairly bigoted Elven insurgent leader, he was a pretty lousy leader in the end as well. Not what you'd expect from a veteran with decades of experience in combat, like you'd expect of an Elf in such an important position.

Mr Jones

2012-01-11, 10:02 PM

The problem is that all those (debatable) things you have listed about the Elf Commander doesn't differentiate him from every other member of the Elf team, or the Resistance. He could have been there for altruistic reasons, or for the money and XP, or driven by hate. We don't know.

The only things on there that are at all debatable was that charging Redcloak was brave rather than stupid, and that the elven team was "highly disciplined." Everything else I listed happens explicitly in the comic.

Yes, killing the hobgoblin was the most memorable thing we saw elf commander do. At the end of the day, he's a minor character that seemed a lot more important when he was introduced than he actually turned out to be. Beyond his general circumstances, we know very little about him.

My whole point is that given that his general circumstances are the leader of a commando unit sent to aid a conquered people that are currently imprisoned, enslaved, or exiled, why this rush to assume the worst about the character?

I don't mean the more general "meh, didn't really like that guy," which is kind of to be expected given that he was a **** in his (second) most memorable scene, but the more specific "that guy deserved to die and redcloak did the world a service killing him" type comments.

The "singe incident" is, in fact, the only scene the Giant has invested in developing the character of the Elf Commander. A scene that doesn't portraits him as an heroic or good character, at all.

Sure, it portrays him as pragmatic, ruthless, and racist. He's shown as someone who's on the right side -- the freeing the prisoners from slavery side -- but who is still a morally gray character. Distinct from the Thanhs and O-Chuls of the world.

My guess is that it's foreshadowing for elven politics in general -- on the good side, but possessing a cold, and even ruthless pragmatism that the main characters would find unsettling. To me, a character like the commander is much more interesting if he has both good ends and dubious means in mind.

In any case, I have a feeling we'll see more of the elves in the future and get a better idea of where they're coming from politically. (And when I say "the elves" I mean the government rather than individuals like V.) It may turn out that was the point in introducing team peregrine -- we've seen a Lawful Good government. Perhaps now we'll see something different down the road a piece.

Or perhaps not. Who knows?

Well, aside from Belkar.

FatJose

2012-01-11, 10:17 PM

It's a bit unfair to call the guy dumb for charging a cleric that he ha d no way of knowing gained 9th level spells. Hell, even RC felt the need to gloat about this...right after casting his trump card.

So, the Elf Commander is really about as dumb as a DragonBall Z character....hmm..That isn't much of a defense actually...

Also, I can see someone doing what RC did to get some serious bluff/intimidate and circumstance bonuses. (and morale penalties for the opponents)

Dr._Demento

2012-01-11, 11:54 PM

I like how Goblin Spy doesn't have surprised eyes at the sight of Redcloak like everyone else; he is just staring.

Chad30

2012-01-12, 12:17 AM

Ironically enough as I was reading TV Tropes, I just got through reading the 'Did you actually believe" trope page. Poor resistance fighters. This was not a good end for them.

The MunchKING

2012-01-12, 01:24 AM

Humans show no tendancy toward any alignment, even neutral. Based on this roughly 1/3rd of EVERY HUMAN ALIVE pings as evil. (If it were substantially less than 1/3rd they'd have an alignment tendancy toward something non-evil.)

NO since the point of what I said was an evil alignment wasn't enough to "Ping" as evil unless you were a cleric of an evil God. Anything else and you had to actively pursue a great deal of evil in order to get your aura bad enough to be recognizable by the spell.

And in D&D at least Human tended towards Neutral.

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-01-12, 01:25 AM

The MunchKING

2012-01-12, 01:26 AM

There's also the fact that The Plan wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't for the other races constantly butchering goblins for little or no reason

Not NO reason as such, the Goblins (and other low CR races) were put in place so the PC races could gain levels before Dragons and other cool things killed them all. *Nods*

The MunchKING

2012-01-12, 01:31 AM

But from 3.0 onward, this was dropped- Detect Evil became capable of picking up anyone of Evil alignment (in the absence of various means of interfering with it).

Looking it up in my 3.5 Hand book it says you get information based on how long you study it.

Round 1: Prescence or absense of Evil.

Round 2: Number of evil auras, and the power of the most powerful one.

Then it goes on to define the aura power as being based on HD for Evil creatures, Undead, and Outsiders, and Class Levels for Clerics of an evil God. It doesn't say anythink about any of the other classes "pinging".

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-01-12, 01:33 AM

Looking it up in my 3.5 Hand book it says you get information based on how long you study it.

Round 1: Prescence or absense of Evil.

Round 2: Number of evil auras, and the power of the most powerful one.

Then it goes on to define the aura power as being based on HD for Evil creatures, Undead, and Outsiders, and Class Levels for Clerics of an evil God. It doesn't say anythink about any of the other classes "pinging".

Members of other classes ARE "evil creatures" that aren't Clerics. Thus they radiate evil, just less so than an Cleric of an evil god of their level.

The MunchKING

2012-01-12, 01:48 AM

Members of other classes ARE "evil creatures" that aren't Clerics. Thus they radiate evil, just less so than an Cleric of an evil god of their level.

Then they'd still need at least 10 Hit dice to rise above "faint".

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-01-12, 02:00 AM

Then they'd still need at least 10 Hit dice to rise above "faint".

Correct. That means attacking people who radiate "moderate evil" can mean a pretty wide range in challenge rating fights you just jumped into. However, HD might not be the best judge of degree of evil when it comes to normal evil creatures (Undead, Evil Outsiders, and possibly clerics of evil gods being probable exceptions as they actually tend to do more evil with increased power).

EDIT: Also, just in case I was unclear that's total HD, not racial HD, so humans and other standard PC races can rise all the way to Moderate Evil fairly easily, though you're almost certainly not going to see "Strong Evil" off of them unless they're clerics of an evil god or you're in Faerun. And I shudder to think of the cheese involved in one radiating "Overwhelming Evil".

slayerx

2012-01-12, 02:01 AM

Now, here's a question: Why have I seen three or four people say the goblins plan to unmake all of creation by releasing the Snarl when Start of Darkness clearly indicates the Plan is to gain the ability to release it on specific gods and then use the THREAT of the Snarl to force the gods to ensure the world is run in a way fairer to the goblin people?

That's actually a fairly different plan than the one people seem to be taking as fact. It's not necessarily a very good plan and it's one that could threaten all of creation, but it's not the same thing as "Step One: Destroy the World."

Its their "Plan B"
If Redcloak fails to cast the ritual that would allow the Dark One to use the snarl as he sees fit, then the back up plan is to destroy the gates and allow the snarl to rampage. The Snarl will begin its attack and the gods will have no choice but to unmake all of creation in order to rebuild the snarl's prison... and this time the dark One will have a say in how goblins are treated in world 3.0

It's a bit unfair to call the guy dumb for charging a cleric that he ha d no way of knowing gained 9th level spells. Hell, even RC felt the need to gloat about this...right after casting his trump card.

You forget about his infernal entourage... RC and those demons/devils had managed to slaughter everyone in the base; which includes numerous of the elves. Hell the resistance should have enough info on RC to know that he is a high level cleric even if they did not know he had 9th level spells.

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-01-12, 02:05 AM

Its their "Plan B"
If Redcloak fails to cast the ritual that would allow the Dark One to use the snarl as he sees fit, then the back up plan is to destroy the gates and allow the snarl to rampage. The Snarl will begin its attack and the gods will have no choice but to unmake all of creation in order to rebuild the snarl's prison... and this time the dark One will have a say in how goblins are treated in world 3.0

Ah. That's not "The Plan", though. That's the last act of desperation after everything else (including the Dark One's attempts as a mortal) have failed.

skaddix

2012-01-12, 03:17 AM

6) - Amended: He died ordering a rash, desperate suicide charge against a superior enemy, instead of considering more sane and successful strategies.

Had he and his lieutenant died while ordering the rest of the resistance to escape with the phylactery, that would've been heroic. Instead, he threw away the chance to preserve a major victory to pursue what appears to be more of a grudge match than a real objective. So not only was he a fairly bigoted Elven insurgent leader, he was a pretty lousy leader in the end as well. Not what you'd expect from a veteran with decades of experience in combat, like you'd expect of an Elf in such an important position.

there was no place to run even if they ordered a retreat without anyone who can teleport or even a scroll they would have had to run to the rift and try the throw again.

The MunchKING

2012-01-12, 03:31 AM

JoseB

2012-01-12, 06:57 AM

That wasn't "Plan B" so much as "What'll happen if we screw this up horribly".

Which, to be honest, has quite a chance of happening anyway (the "screwing this up horribly" I mean). Tampering with god-killing monstrosities is not something a totally sane person would consider doing... Especially when those god-killing monstrosities are unpredictable, born of pure chaos and with a grudge.

(And yes, I know that the plan is not to control the Snarl per se, but the gate that contains it, allowing the Dark One to choose where that gate will appear. Nonetheless, I have the feeling that there are simply too many variables and that things are too unpredictable for it to be "so easy").

Rules Lawyer #1

2012-01-12, 08:08 AM

Wow!
Awesome story telling:
every panel is brilliantly executed.

Panel 1: Resistance Groups surprise (mirrors OOTS fan based surprise)

overall excellent portrayal of D&D rules in action: casting interruption, spell leveling, arrow deflection, Implosion, polymorphed agents

Panel 4: great details and villain monologuing, *possibly* my favorite panel

Panels 5, 6, and 7: … brutal. Red Cloak is receiving some heavy vilification here. I have to agree that this may be breaking PG-13… with stick figures… Of course knowing Redcloak's character story, it all makes sense - terrifying, horrific sense.:smalleek:

Panels 9, 10, & 11: excellent punch line delivery

Personally, I love the complexity of the multiple story arcs in this comic. Keep up the Awesomeness Giant!

Chobarth

2012-01-12, 08:48 AM

The points I'm gonna to argue about in this message revolve around your wrong assertion that the murdered hobgoblin was a member of the enemy faction, the legal status of the Elf Commander's action, and the psychology of said commander.

Irrelevant as that particular Hobgoblin was no longer part of the hobgoblin side, but a prisoner of it. Double irrelevant as, even if he was part of the enemy side, killing prisoners is still a crime.

Killing chained, unarmed people while telling jokes... charging against an enemy when even the Paladin (who is immune to Fear) has second thoughts... anyway, if you describe him as "someone who likes to play with his food", what do you expect me to think?

He executed someone who was not a member of the faction with which he was at war with. As proven by the fact that he had been imprisoned by the faction with which the azurites are at war with.

As said Goblin was in prison and no longer part of the enemy army, it was not "one less goblin the resistance will need to deal with later", but rather "one less prisoner the enemy needs to feed or worry about".

Then why they need to lie about it to the Paladin?

In order:
1) You don't lose your culture because of imprisonment. Soldiers in the brig are still soldiers. Citizens in jail are still citizens. They are serving out a punishment for some trangression - they aren't magically excommunicated from 'the tribe'. They lose some freedoms for a period of time, not their identity. Hobgob was still part of the nation that Elf Commander was working to bring to an end. The alleged 'crime' of killing a prisoner is simply ridiculous - I'm to understand that a fantasy D&D type world has some sort of Geneva Convention in place? When most adventurers are little better than hobo serial killers? As Mr. Jones as said over and over (and much better than I have), the EC may be a flawed military commander, but he certainly isn't breaking any (non-existant) laws given his role and mission in regards to the Hobgob.

2) I expect you to think that he was a bigoted commando team leader and kind of a generic military prick - but I ALSO expect you to be honest enough with the situation to admit that he was hardly some type of monster whose demise deserved any amount of glee. I thought the way he killed Hobgob was funny, and you did not. But celebrating his death? Reread all of Mr. Jones posts - he makes much more cogent arguments than you do, in support of the Elf Commander. Also, until (if ever) the Giant comments, we are at an impasse over who suggested retreat. You say Thanh, I say Niu - but either way, I DO agree with you that he was committing glorified suicide rushing RC and the devils.

3) You're repeating yourself and I've already responded to this. A prisoner isn't given magical underwear that removes his 'faction' while imprisoned. He was a bigot himself, and roughed up a greenskin - so he was serving some jail-time. That doesn't take away his card carrying Genus: Goblin credentials. The EC pragmatically executed a member of the faction he is fighting against. That simple.

4) I've already speculated about this in a previous post. You are reading the posts right? Just restating one of your bullet points isn't an argument. You should try to refute what I said.

LAST: I'll be happy to read any further responses you make, but unless you can bring up some arguments / observations that actually support your views (vs. just restating them again) I'm unlikely to respond further. Put aside your emotional response to Elf Commander and reread Mr. Jone's posts.

Peelee

2012-01-12, 11:29 AM

The debate I'm avoiding is about if something is morally justified. Which is the type of debate banned on those forums.

The points I'm gonna to argue about in this message revolve around your wrong assertion that the murdered hobgoblin was a member of the enemy faction, the legal status of the Elf Commander's action, and the psychology of said commander.

Irrelevant as that particular Hobgoblin was no longer part of the hobgoblin side, but a prisoner of it. Double irrelevant as, even if he was part of the enemy side, killing prisoners is still a crime.

Which we only have the goblin's word for. There was a very real chance he was a spy, which in hindsight is almost certain - a goblin thrown in prison to be "rescued" by the Resistance in order to infiltrate them. Hey, throw a polymorph in there and you have exactly what happened. Now, at the time, there was no way to know with any certainty at all, so it was a judgement call on what to do. As that elf in particular happened to be the commander, it was his call. Remember, he was at war. This was a murky situation, and every solution to it had potential risks. The commander chose to execute the prisoner, which is not necessarily a crime in the OotS world (remember Shojo's line? "What, you thought because we were lawful good there would be freedom of speech?"), especially in time of war.

Killing chained, unarmed people while telling jokes... charging against an enemy when even the Paladin (who is immune to Fear) has second thoughts... anyway, if you describe him as "someone who likes to play with his food", what do you expect me to think?

Killing a possible spy attempting to infiltrate their organization and making a poor tactical decision (which any character's immunity to fear has no bearing on whatsoever), you mean?

He executed someone who was not a member of the faction with which he was at war with. As proven by the fact that he had been imprisoned by the faction with which the azurites are at war with.

So just because someone isn't actively shooting at you is now proof positive that he's not the enemy?

As said Goblin was in prison and no longer part of the enemy army, it was not "one less goblin the resistance will need to deal with later", but rather "one less prisoner the enemy needs to feed or worry about".

Again, if "he was in prison" is a disqualification from being part of the enemy army, that polymorphed spy is one helluva standup civilian, to help the military out like that.

Then why they need to lie about it to the Paladin?

Are you talking about the decision the human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), not any of the elves, decided on? So as to avoid a confrontation between two higher-ups, both doing what they feel is necessary for the survival of the Resistance, and to avoid breaking up the alliance or driving off reinforcements?

I am NOT trying to call sympathy toward the commander. I AM trying to understand why so many people were actively cheering his death (which I believe zimmerwald helped out with, with his explanation of rampant elf-hate in fantasy circles and why), and now why you seem to think he is a genocidal psychopath. A racist who kills someone he's racist against, when that person is under heavy suspicion of being a spy in hostile territory and the racist is a commander and in a position of authority in helping keep the freedom fighters safe is NOT an act of genocide, and in no way makes him a highly destabilized mind.

I do hope that Niu survived (she was the one who called to retreat IMO, not bumbling Thanh)

I disagree. If Niu called the retreat, she could have easily been placed in front of Thanh so as to avoid confusion (the word balloon arrow would point directly at her, instead of at her through Thanh). It's more likely her mouth is just open in shock - in the panel 3 of the current strip, two characters are open-mouthed in surprise without having any lines, and Thanh talks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html) without (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html) his (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html) mouth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) visibly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html) opening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html). As Thanh is the leader of the resistance, it's his order to call out. All signs point to Thanh calling the retreat.

See also: hey, I like Thanh!

The Pilgrim

2012-01-12, 11:39 AM

In order:
1) You don't lose your culture because of imprisonment. Soldiers in the brig are still soldiers. Citizens in jail are still citizens. They are serving out a punishment for some trangression - they aren't magically excommunicated from 'the tribe'. They lose some freedoms for a period of time, not their identity. Hobgob was still part of the nation that Elf Commander was working to bring to an end.

So, basically, if you belong to the enemy's culture, you deserve to be summary executed, without question. It doesn't matter which side you have allegiance to, or if you are or not a combatant. :smallconfused:

Since that line of debate will inevitably fall on the "moral justification" plane, I'll say no further. Except to note you that you are alone in the defense of that particular action of the Elf Commander. Mr Jones, for example, acknowledges it as "not the right thing to do".

I'm afraid you may have played a first-person-shooter too many. :smallsigh:

The alleged 'crime' of killing a prisoner is simply ridiculous - I'm to understand that a fantasy D&D type world has some sort of Geneva Convention in place? When most adventurers are little better than hobo serial killers? As Mr. Jones as said over and over (and much better than I have), the EC may be a flawed military commander, but he certainly isn't breaking any (non-existant) laws given his role and mission in regards to the Hobgob.

Rules for conduct in war pre-date the Geneva Convention by, at least, centuries and, probably, millenia. The has always been a notion of what was right to do in war and what was not.

The fact that a leading member of the Resistance expressed, inmediately after the murder, that they wouldn't inform about it to Thanh, is evidence enough that such rules exists in the OOTS world, and than according to common customs in such world, the Commander's action was not seen as right. Otherwise the Resistance would have no problem in telling the Paladin.

Kish

2012-01-12, 11:43 AM

The alleged 'crime' of killing a prisoner is simply ridiculous - I'm to understand that a fantasy D&D type world has some sort of Geneva Convention in place? When most adventurers are little better than hobo serial killers?
You seem to be under the impression that this is a defense of the elf commander. It's not. It's a condemnation of your idea of "most adventurers."

The Pilgrim

2012-01-12, 11:50 AM

Remember, he was at war. This was a murky situation, and every solution to it had potential risks.

Being at war doesn't gives you a free card to do anything.

The commander chose to execute the prisoner, which is not necessarily a crime in the OotS world (remember Shojo's line? "What, you thought because we were lawful good there would be freedom of speech?"), especially in time of war.

It is, since the Resistance members automatically understand that they have to hide the Elf Commander's actions from the Lawful Good Paladin.

So just because someone isn't actively shooting at you is now proof positive that he's not the enemy?

The fact that the guy is CHAINED and totally helpless, may be of importance here.

Are you talking about the decision the human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html), not any of the elves, decided on? So as to avoid a confrontation between two higher-ups, both doing what they feel is necessary for the survival of the Resistance, and to avoid breaking up the alliance or driving off reinforcements?

Yes, I'm talking about the fact that the Lawful Good leader of the Resistance would not approve the Elf Commander's action, since it was contrary to both Law and Good.

I AM trying to understand why so many people were actively cheering his death

Becuse he was a racist murderer?

"The Only Good Goblin is a Dead Goblin". Period.

And, as I have argued a lot of times already, the Human Resistance view NO PROBLEM in handling the Hobbo to Thanh. Which means that killing him was not the only option; they could have simply left him behind, or taken as prisoner.

FatJose

2012-01-12, 12:14 PM

So, basically, if you belong to the enemy's culture, you deserve to be summary executed, without question. It doesn't matter which side you have allegiance to, or if you are or not a combatant. :smallconfused:

Since that line of debate will inevitably fall on the "moral justification" plane, I'll say no further. Except to note you that you are alone in the defense of that particular action of the Elf Commander. Mr Jones, for example, acknowledges it as "not the right thing to do".

I'm afraid you may have played a first-person-shooter too many. :smallsigh:

Strawman-ing like Michael Jackson right now. :smallyuk:

He killed some stupid goblin. Who cares? Why is this a thing? Why is killing a guy who was most likely going to double-cross everyone at the drop of a hat matter?

Peelee

2012-01-12, 12:30 PM

Being at war doesn't gives you a free card to do anything.

No, it doesn't. But killing an enemy soldier isn't a crime, either.

It is, since the Resistance members automatically understand that they have to hide the Elf Commander's actions from the Lawful Good Paladin.

Or it could just not be good. I'm the first in line to say that wasn't a good act. Of course a Paladin would take major issue with that. Which isn't to say it's against the law.

The fact that the guy is CHAINED and totally helpless, may be of importance here.

Chained and left helpless by his superiors, to let him infiltrate the resistance? Chained like Chewbacca was chained in Star Wars when they infiltrated the Death Star prison? His chains could have been no less of a trick than the polymorph was for the current spy. Again, this is an issue of whether it was a good act, which it certainly wasn't. The assertion that the goblin could easily (and was very likely, even before we knew of the other spy) have been an active member of the enemy faction is not being pulled into question here, I do have to note. You're arguing the in-universe morality of it, which is clearly evil. Summary execution of suspected spies might well be the accepted law in a state of war, which the Resistance currently is in. Let me expound on that right quick, though.

Let's assume that IS accepted. It would be lawful, sure, but it would still not be a good act. As such, the Paladin would still take issue with it in a huge way, so that would still keep in with my argument here.

Yes, I'm talking about the fact that the Lawful Good leader of the Resistance would not approve the Elf Commander's action, since it was contrary to both Law and Good.

Again, I fully agree that it was not good. That's not in question. Again, you're only pulling the in-universe morality here. Just because a Lawful Good character objects doesn't automatically mean it is both non-good AND non-lawful.

Becuse he was a racist murderer?

So there's no longer a "genocidal psychopath," now it's merely about his being a racist murderer. I wonder how far your argument can be chipped away? I'm not accusing you of this (I can't recall if you said it or not, and I'm inclined by your argument so far to believe you're not one of the ones who did), but what about all the people cheering the death with the rallying cry, "death to all elves!" I've said before, I did not know about the resentment toward elves because I'm not huge into fantasy for the most part. Are you? Is it possible your reaction to this could be even stronger because it was an elf committing the act, with their apparent self-righteousness and superiority complexes? What if his feelings are born of the world they live in, in which the gods who made the world and deliberately made the goblins out to be XP fodder?

And, as I have argued a lot of times already, the Human Resistance view NO PROBLEM in handling the Hobbo to Thanh. Which means that killing him was not the only option; they could have simply left him behind, or taken as prisoner.

Those same humans who immediately decided Thanh did not need to know what what happened? The same human, in fact, who instantly was either highly suspicious or angry at the goblin immediately after he was pulled out of line? Blindly following orders is not the same thing as having no problem with something, which considering their instant turnabout after the act, was exactly what they were doing. Of course killing him was not the only option! But there were inherent risks in any action they did. If they took him prisoner, what was stopping a goblin cleric from Sending to him, getting a description of the base, and Dimension Dooring or Teleporting a small army in there, for instance? I already said, every course of action had its risks. That he chose a very effective, albeit evil one, was still a single act, and a rather tame one compared to what we've seen elsewhere in the strip. And yet there's such massive exuberance and cheer for his death, when he was trying to help a conquered and subjugated people. I just think that's a bit more ignominious than he deserves

dancrilis

2012-01-12, 01:06 PM

...Bigoted? Oh wow. You know, I knew someone a while ago who joked that being "prejudiced" against axe-murdering psychopaths was wrong. Difference? He was joking.

And "a different opinion to me"? So you're asserting that "genocidal racism is wrong" is a private, insupportable belief of mine, no more valid than "genocidal racism is right." Um...yeah.

Bigoted: Obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one's own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.

Do you disagree that that applies to you in relation to your potential difference of opinion in comparison to genocidal racists?

One Skunk Todd

2012-01-12, 01:56 PM

Which we only have the goblin's word for. There was a very real chance he was a spy, which in hindsight is almost certain - a goblin thrown in prison to be "rescued" by the Resistance in order to infiltrate them. Hey, throw a polymorph in there and you have exactly what happened.

I wonder if the hobbo was thrown in prison specifically to draw the rescue team's attention away from scrutinizing the other prisoners. We'll probably never know. I just went back and read the prison rescue strip and I notice the Elf Commander specifically says that he is not a nice guy.

Peelee

2012-01-12, 02:11 PM

I wonder if the hobbo was thrown in prison specifically to draw the rescue team's attention away from scrutinizing the other prisoners. We'll probably never know. I just went back and read the prison rescue strip and I notice the Elf Commander specifically says that he is not a nice guy.

Also a good possibility there, yeah. I do believe that the goblin was a deliberate plant of some sort, most likely a direct spy himself. Regardless, though, even if the Giant himself came down and said, "yeah, he was a spy," that doesn't make what the commander did good; assuming the goblin was a spy, and this became known after the fact, in civilian court, the commander would have been lucky, not right, and still likely convicted. In military actions, he would likely have been given a medal instead of a tribunal. That this was a war by necessity complicates things. It will never have been good, that is inarguable. I just don't think it was nearly as reprehensible as so many others, to the point of warranting cheering at the commander's death (and wishing for the heads of all elves everywhere, as some have spoken)

hamishspence

2012-01-12, 02:14 PM

I saw the presence of the polymorphed spy as a hint that the slain hobgoblin wasn't one.

With the elven commander "judging a book by its cover" and thus killing a non-spy, and letting a spy through.

thereaper

2012-01-12, 02:24 PM

There was no need to kill the hobgoblin prisoner. They could have just left him where they found him if they believed he was a spy. Therefore, killing him was an evil act.

rewinn

2012-01-12, 02:40 PM

There was no need to kill the hobgoblin prisoner. They could have just left him where they found him if they believed he was a spy.

:redcloak: It sure would've been helpful to have an eyewitness tell me everything about the strike team! As it happened, I didn't need the information, but how would Elven Commander have known this?

Kish

2012-01-12, 02:57 PM

Peelee

2012-01-12, 03:02 PM

They left a lot of eyewitnesses behind, remember? Sure, those eyewitnesses were technically dead, but that wasn't a problem for Tsukiko (and even if Redcloak had gotten his way and Tsukiko hadn't turned them into wights, Speak With Dead would still have gotten all the information the hobgoblin prisoner could have given them).

Speak with Dead gets knowledge the corpse knows, not what the person knows.

For example:

Live eyewitness: "The elf seemed like he was in charge. I'm not sure, though, they kept referring to someone called "Thanh" as if he were the leader. The elf may have been a squad leader, or might be from a completely different expeditionary force that is working with the rebels. They did not put me under too much scrutiny, though, other than disqualifying my from joining based on trust issues since I am still a goblin."

Dead eyewitness (through Speak with Dead): "There was an elf with the humans."

EDIT: Though I suppose differentiating between "what the body knows" and "what the person knew" is up to DM discretion. That's how I would run it. OotS-verse may not work that way. The only time we've seen it used, it was for incredibly dull, simple, single point-of-fact "the keys are in your pocket," but was not obscure or vague in any way, as the spell claims it would be, so it could work either way.

Gir

2012-01-12, 03:11 PM

wow, totally expected that when one side gets a win, it is soon beat by the other side. too bad the bad guys won this time...Redcloak totally pwned

toughluck

2012-01-12, 03:44 PM

They left a lot of eyewitnesses behind, remember? Sure, those eyewitnesses were technically dead, but that wasn't a problem for Tsukiko (and even if Redcloak had gotten his way and Tsukiko hadn't turned them into wights, Speak With Dead would still have gotten all the information the hobgoblin prisoner could have given them).
Hmmm...
1. Now, the obvious problem is efficiency. Assuming RC was level 16, he gets 8 questions and has 16 minutes to ask them. Which ones should be asked?
2. Redcloak would need to prepare such a spell, and how many would he prepare? Whom should he raise? Who died first (so as not to waste a spell on him)?
3. Speak with Dead does not offer a full explanation, and only provides cryptic, short, partially true answers.
4. The subject must have a mouth. The 'spy' would be mangled enough not to be able to speak.
5. Then there's Tsukiko -- she enters the scene, Redcloak is powerless -- once the hobgoblins were turned to undead, any chance to speak with the deceased is lost.

Eight questions... Who attacked? -- Humanoids. How did they attack? Quickly. Etc.
As a DM, I'd preclude asking lengthy and complicated questions, and I'd have the dead respond to the last coherent phrase, not the whole question.

People are treating Speak with Dead as if it were the ultimate tool to glean all information from dead guys. If it worked that way, you could kill a wizard and ask him to dictate a spell to you. In fact, taking it to the logical extreme, such a dead wizard could cast a spell if it was memorized.
If it was that powerful, the elven commander would order hobgoblin tongues to be cut out.

===

As for Elf Commander. He was racist (I'll admit that, funny to see how everybody around me is racist, though). He executed the prisoner in a way that prompted the late Sadistic Eyepatch Girl to call elves awesome, rather than making it quick and relatively painless.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-12, 03:46 PM

:redcloak: It sure would've been helpful to have an eyewitness tell me everything about the strike team! As it happened, I didn't need the information, but how would Elven Commander have known this?

Tsukiko herself has been an eyewitness of the Resistance's actions, a lot of times, since she teleports in with his black squadron every other time the Resistance strikes.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-12, 03:47 PM

They somehow knew it was the work of elven insurgents, and Tsukiko knows Haley's last name. So the Resistance hasn't been doing that great of a job trying to be secretive.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-12, 03:51 PM

No, it doesn't. But killing an enemy soldier isn't a crime, either.

1) He was not an enemy soldier

2) Killing an enemy soldier when he is captured and chained IS a crime

Chained and left helpless by his superiors, to let him infiltrate the resistance?

So? Leave him behind. Or bring him to an expendable base, interrogate him to extract info on the enemy, then release him (or "let him escape") and let the enemy think that where you held him was your true base.

So many options...

Again, I fully agree that it was not good.

Case solved, then.

Kish

2012-01-12, 03:54 PM

5. Then there's Tsukiko -- she enters the scene, Redcloak is powerless -- once the hobgoblins were turned to undead, any chance to speak with the deceased is immediately a great deal easier as Redcloak doesn't need to cast Speak with Dead to question them.

Yeah, um, I'm not talking in a hypothetical universe where Rich decided to bend the rules as much as necessary to make a living eyewitness able to convey a lot more information than a dead one. I'm talking about the strips we've seen and the information Redcloak had.

Cirin

2012-01-12, 04:20 PM

Why are people having this idea that the Azurites somehow earned what was done to them?

Yes, they engaged in open warfare trying to eradicate the Goblin races.

Because they deserve it. Yes, they do.

Here's why.

The Goblins are lead by their Supreme Leader. Redcloak is the current Supreme Leader. This Supreme Leader is the High Priest of the Dark One, the God of the Goblins.

The Dark One is the one who created the master plan to use the Snarl to either destroy the other pantheons, or destroy the world, all in a huge scheme to unmake reality so that in a new reality Goblins would have more prominence.

The whole point of The Plan is to destroy the world, and maybe take a few other Gods down with it.

Every Goblin that is part of Goblin Society serves this plan, whether they know it or not. Only the Supreme Commander knows the entire plan (it's been implied at least that senior Goblin leadership knows there i). Now Xykon knows most of it (but even he doesn't know that the ritual on the Gate will NOT give him control of The Snarl, it gives control directly to The Dark One, in the long game, Redcloak is still leading Xykon on).

The Purge initiated by Soon Kim and the Sapphire Guard was an attempt to prevent The Plan from coming to fruition, to protect all of creation, and the Gods Themselves, from an attempt by the Goblins to unleash a Lovecraftian omnicidal & deicidal monstrosity from it's prison plane so it could rend reality asunder.

So, in the calculus of ethics:
The Good: Saving all of the material plane, as well as quite possibly most of the Gods in the multiverse from a fate worse than death (remember, beings killed by the Snarl have no afterlife, they are utterly annihilated).

The Bad: Killing a large amount of a Usually Evil race that is working as part of an overall plan to bring about this Ragnarok/Armageddon scenario. A relatively small number of non-evil members of the race may be killed in the plan, but they were still working to further the plan.

Conclusion: Kill the Goblins, save the world.

hamishspence

2012-01-12, 04:22 PM

The Goblins are lead by their Supreme Leader. Redcloak is the current Supreme Leader. This Supreme Leader is the High Priest of the Dark One, the God of the Goblins.

The Dark One is the one who created the master plan to use the Snarl to either destroy the other pantheons, or destroy the world, all in a huge scheme to unmake reality so that in a new reality Goblins would have more prominence.

The other pantheons would not have been destroyed according to SOD- simply blackmailed with the threat of the snarl.

Nor did the plan require releasing the Snarl from its prison.

Peelee

2012-01-12, 04:25 PM

1) He was not an enemy soldier

You keep saying this as if it were fact. If you have any source of this other than the goblin himself saying "oh, no, I'm not a spy, whyever would you think such a thing," please, do let me know.

2) Killing an enemy soldier when he is captured and chained IS a crime

Under Geneva Conventions, yes. Under the old, archaic rules of warfare? Probably, I'm not too familiar with them. Under OotS rules of warfare, or even Gobbotopia or Elven law? I have no effin' clue. And ignoring all that, if he were a soldier, he made an overt aggressive act in actively attempting to infiltrate the resistance.

So? Leave him behind. Or bring him to an expendable base, interrogate him to extract info on the enemy, then release him (or "let him escape") and let the enemy think that where you held him was your true base.

So many options...

Yeah, there were a lot of options. We can debate their merits individually, because we have mountains of time. They did not (the prison was understaffed that night due to the speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html); once the speech was over, full staff would return). The commander acted in a decisive manner doing what he thought was right. For that, he earns utter enmity for his entire species, and cheers of joy at his death?!? No, I don't see it.

Case solved, then.

...except you yourself said you were not going to argue the morality of it, and all I stated there was morality (in-universe, that it was not a good act). So what case are you talking about, here?

Kish

2012-01-12, 04:41 PM

Why are people having this idea that the Azurites somehow earned what was done to them?

Yes, they engaged in open warfare trying to eradicate the Goblin races.

Because they deserve it. Yes, they do.

...

Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another. Vaarsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully when the reader sees the scale on which Vaarsuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.
Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Probably best that I not think about it too much.

I now await, with bated breath, the explanations that this quote is all out of place because Rich said that about killing black dragons, so it has nothing to do with genocide against goblins being a good thing.

Wait, that's actually "weary cynicism," not "bated breath." My bad.