Am I doing it right? Hidden Attacks.

[Bloodgruve]

So, my build is a is the standard Facotum Iaijutsu Focus Dark Creature templated Whisper Gnome using the quickrazors.

I'm doing a lot of damage and I want to confirm that I'm not doing something wrong.

IF requires the target to be flat footed. I am using Hide in Plain Sight to achieve this with a pretty high Hide modifier. At level 9 I'm sitting around +36 to hide and have Hide in Plain Sight while not in direct sunlight.

I am making a Hide check during movement and 5' steps. To remain hidden during an attack you get a -20 to Hide. If the opponent does not spot me I am adding IF damage to each attack which can be up to 4 per round currently. If I connect with each attack I usually do around 120 dmg per round.

I have recently told the DM that I will only apply IF to the first MH and OH attack each round to drop the damage output and preserve the gaming fun.

Am I doing this right?

Input is appreciated.

TYVM
Blood~

[DonDuckie]

the standard Facotum Iaijutsu Focus Dark Creature templated Whisper Gnome using the quickrazors.

RPG'ers are kinda unique in their consideration of what is standard.

Can't help, but I like your way of putting things :smallsmile:

[Bloodgruve]

RPG'ers are kinda unique in their consideration of what is standard.

Can't help, but I like your way of putting things :smallsmile:

Very true. I guess I use that because AFAIK whisper gnome/quickrazor is the best to optimize this build ;)

[Z3ro]

I may be mistaken, but I do believe you are doing it wrong. IF only applies when a target is flat-footed. HiPS denies a target their dex to AC, which is enough to trigger sneak attack, but not enough to trigger IF.

[Slipperychicken]

Blurstrike (MiC) will help with FF, as will grease, and bags of marbles (A&EG?). Marbles are basically a dirt-cheap 5x5 Grease as far as you're concerned, use Cunning Surge or an Unseen Servant (2k via Collar of Perpetual Attendance, Fabulous Cats Web Enhancement) to spread them. You can't always rely on being hidden. Also, hope you don't get hit with Glitterdust or Corpse Candle very often.

[Curmudgeon]

If you're using the Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic, you're only satisfying one of the two requirements to be allowed to make a Hide check (and then only sometimes, when there's no daylight). How are you satisfying the other requirement: cover/concealment?

Typically only the Supernatural versions of Hide in Plain Sight will satisfy both Hide requirements.

[Tvtyrant]

A tower shield? Then you simply drop it once you are hidden if you don't want to carry it around.

[gkathellar]

I may be mistaken, but I do believe you are doing it wrong. IF only applies when a target is flat-footed. HiPS denies a target their dex to AC, which is enough to trigger sneak attack, but not enough to trigger IF.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't being Flat-Footed the cause of losing your Dex bonus to AC?

[Curmudgeon]

HiPS denies a target their dex to AC
This is incorrect. Hide in Plain Sight merely (under the right circumstances) allows you to make a Hide check. Only if you're successful with that Hide check (i.e., it's higher than the opponent's Spot check) are you visually undetectable and gain the associated benefits: +2 to attack, and opponent is denied their DEX bonus to AC.

[Siosilvar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't being Flat-Footed the cause of losing your Dex bonus to AC?

Flat-footed makes you lose your Dex to AC.
Losing your Dex to AC does not make you flatfooted.

If X then Y, not the other way around.

[Bloodgruve]

Ok, after some reading I see that HiPS from Dark Creature is different from HiPS from Shadowdancer. This means that concealment is needed?

I took a level of Swordsage for Child of the Night stance used to shroud myself in shadows while in daylight. This states that it will not work to HiPS, which I took to mean that it does not give you the ability to HiPS but after seeing the Dark Creature vs Shadowdancer I can see it might be a statement targeted towards any form of HiPS?

So, for my build I not only have to be out of direct sunlight I also have to have more concealment other than just Child of the Night?

Say I take Cloak Dance, blind the target or fight in darkness. This should allow me to HiPS and gain IF bonuses?

TY
Blood~

[Bloodgruve]

I may be mistaken, but I do believe you are doing it wrong. IF only applies when a target is flat-footed. HiPS denies a target their dex to AC, which is enough to trigger sneak attack, but not enough to trigger IF.

I do believe that if you are hidden from your opponent it is considered flat-footed in respect to you.

Blood~

[Bloodgruve]

Blurstrike (MiC) will help with FF, as will grease, and bags of marbles (A&EG?). Marbles are basically a dirt-cheap 5x5 Grease as far as you're concerned, use Cunning Surge or an Unseen Servant (2k via Collar of Perpetual Attendance, Fabulous Cats Web Enhancement) to spread them. You can't always rely on being hidden. Also, hope you don't get hit with Glitterdust or Corpse Candle very often.

I carry marbles, have Grease readied, run one of the skill tricks, a maneuver and try to win initiate for backups. I'll need a blurstrike which I couldn't afford prior to now.

TY
Blood

[SethFahad]

Nope. He is not flat-footed.
When facing a totally concealed foe, a creature is denied Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class and the attacker gets a +2 attack bonus as well.
And it's only total concealment that interferes with Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class. Anything that knocks down total concealment to a lower degree makes any Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class available again.

Again denied dexterity bonus to AC is not the same as flat footed.

PH p.137

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

[Urpriest]

Rules Compendium, Page 92: "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you."

[Bloodgruve]

So I believe I now understand the flaw of my HiPS setup and will have to adjust.

The second part of the question is if I am working with Hide for FF, I would assume that the first attack made in a round would be Spot vs my Hide check. Would OH or iterative attacks be Spot vs. Hide -20 to gain Iaijutsu Focus on the extra attacks and remain hidden?

TYVM for all the input
Blood~

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, to stay hidden after attacking you need to make your new Hide check while you attack.

The important thing to remember about the mechanics of Hide checks is that you don't (and aren't allowed to) use an action for them (excepting the special case of ranged attacks with Sniping). Instead there is a limited set of other actions which allow a Hide check to be piggy-backed on them. Most of those options are summed up in the very first paragraph of the skill description:
You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

[Bloodgruve]

TYVM Curmudgeon.

Blood~

[Socratov]

Rules Compendium, Page 92: "If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you."

And again the day is saved by Rules compendium! :smallamused:

you can always use HiPS again after you attacked... you mentioned you could hide during moving and 5'steps... If your DM is ok with this, apparently you are doing it right. (and although not referred to as such, this is commonly seen as rule 0)

[NiteCyper]

Yes, to stay hidden after attacking you need to make your new Hide check while you attack.

The important thing to remember about the mechanics of Hide checks is that you don't (and aren't allowed to) use an action for them (excepting the special case of ranged attacks with Sniping). Instead there is a limited set of other actions which allow a Hide check to be piggy-backed on them. Most of those options are summed up in the very first paragraph of the skill description:
You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

I don't relish challenging Curmudgeon, but there are two interpretations:

You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide by attacking, running or charging.vs.
You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to stay hidden while attacking, running or charging.The pretext as what penalizes a Hide check, implies the latter.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't relish challenging Curmudgeon, but there are two interpretations:
vs.The pretext as what penalizes hiding checks, implies the latter.
Actually, there's just one. Since Hide has no action and is piggy-backed onto other actions, both of these are correct. You can become hidden while you attack if you weren't already hidden; you would gain the advantages of being visually undetectable for that attack and afterward. If you were already hidden, you can stay hidden afterward by making a good Hide check during your attack. (You already had the benefits of being visually undetectable for the attack itself.)

You Hide while attacking. Not before, not after, but during the attack. The benefits are the same as when you Hide while moving.

[NiteCyper]

Actually, there's just one. Since Hide has no action and is piggy-backed onto other actions, both of these are correct. You can become hidden while you attack if you weren't already hidden; you would gain the advantages of being visually undetectable for that attack and afterward. If you were already hidden, you can stay hidden afterward by making a good Hide check during your attack. (You already had the benefits of being visually undetectable for the attack itself.)

You Hide while attacking. Not before, not after, but during the attack. The benefits are the same as when you Hide while moving.

So, barring disadvantage by proximity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) (search "grope"), mêlée-attacking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#meleeAttacks) while hiding is strictly better action(s) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)-economically than ranged-attacking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#rangedAttacks) (i.e., Sniping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm#sniping)) while hiding?

[Curmudgeon]

So, barring disadvantage by proximity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) (search "grope"), mêlée-attacking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#meleeAttacks) while hiding is strictly better action(s) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)-economically than ranged-attacking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#rangedAttacks) (i.e., Sniping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm#sniping)) while hiding?
You're comparing apples and bruised oranges here. Sniping is a ranged option that you can use when you don't have Hide in Plain Sight. But you're not required to use Sniping. If you have Hide in Plain Sight that enables you to always Hide while attacking, you're better off with ranged attacks than melee attacks purely because of the Spot penalties for distance. The action economy is the same, but the chances of staying hidden are better.

[Bloodgruve]

TY all for the input.

Lastly, to make sure I'm doing it right...

Veil of Shadows gives concealment, 20% miss chance.

If I had this cast on myself and the DM allows Hide on a 5' step would this allow me to, assuming I'm not spotted; 5' step Hide vs Spot>Attack + IF, Hide -20 vs Spot>Attack + IF, Hide -20 vs Spot>etc... ?

TY again,

Blood~

[NiteCyper]

Veil of Shadows gives concealment, 20% miss chance.

If I had this cast on myself and the DM allows Hide on a 5' step would this allow me to, assuming I'm not spotted; 5' step Hide vs Spot>Attack + IF, Hide -20 vs Spot>Attack + IF, Hide -20 vs Spot>etc... ?

Edit: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know the special ability of a Gnomish Quickrazor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8746061&postcount=3). Yes, that seems fine. Rehiding isn't necessary until the end of the attack phase if flat-footing is ruled to apply for the entire turn like "at the start of a battle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#flatFooted)".

Are you drawing anew per attack? If no, I don't think that IF damage applies to all except for one attack, because: (a) the wording that I'm reading refers only to an attack roll instead of all, and (b) flavour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu) supports point A.

I have recently told the DM that I will only apply IF to the first MH and OH attack each round to drop the damage output and preserve the gaming fun.
BTW, what do MH and OH mean?

[Bloodgruve]

BTW, what do MH and OH mean?

Sorry, this may be spilling over from my online vocabulary. Main Hand and Off Hand. :)

TY
Blood~

[Funkyodor]

HIPS allows a character to hide in cover/concealment while being observed. But until someone rolls a spot higher than the characters hide, he is not observed and should be able to attack and stay hidden (-20, hide while attacking) until he is. As long as he has some form of shadowy hidey / foresty hidey concealment granting ablities or items, then he doesn't need HIPS until he is spotted.

With the rules compendium flat-footed bit brought up, then I guess you are doing it right.