Pitting PC's against NPCs With Classes. Help!!!

[wayfare]

Hey All!

I am waaaay away from book, so i turn to the playground for some help.

I am running a game that is stylized as a multiversal gladiatorial competition. Most of the monsters will be just that -- monsters. But on occasion, I want the players to fight other groups of NPCs with class levels. How do I do this? Are there any rules for this sort of thing?

Thanks for the help!

[Seerow]

In the DMG, there's rules for giving NPCs a class. It basically turns them into an elite, giving them a couple of PC powers, and better HP/defenses.

[DragonBaneDM]

Okay, well they get all of their class features, but you give them powers based on tier!

Heroic: 1 Daily, 1 Encounter, 1 Utility
Paragon: 1 Daily, 2 Encounter, 2 Utility
Epic: 2 Dailies, 2 Encounter, 3 Utility

Hopefully that helps! You still need the corresponding PHB for the class to do anything, but hopefully it's a class you know well enough to make up away from books.

[wayfare]

How about for literally placing PCs against NPCs made with the character creation guidelines for PCs? If there are no rules, does anybody have suggestions on how i could make it work?

[MeeposFire]

How about for literally placing PCs against NPCs made with the character creation guidelines for PCs? If there are no rules, does anybody have suggestions on how i could make it work?

Don't do it.

The game was designed around you fighting monsters with more HP and less damage and PCs have higher damage and less HP. PCs fighting PCs can be decided in less than a round since the PCs will not have the HP to survive a single round of good PC damage. PC on PC will become rocket tag which most games want to avoid.

[DragonBaneDM]

I used to do that back when I started playing 4e cause I didn't know any better. Honestly it works okay, but only for one on one stuff. A team of PCs is REALLY good at focus fire, and they don't have the HP to stand up to an optimized nova.

So basically it becomes a game of rocket tag between the strikers on both sides. Plus it's a lot easier for you to make a "PvP" build for the NPCs, so be wary of that. Stuff like evading marks gets a lot better.

Honestly try this out:
http://blogofholding.com/?p=512

It has guidelines for making balanced, tough monsters in like five minutes. Works for me! Combine that with the above posts and you should have something fun for them to fight.

[Tegu8788]

I've asked about a similar plan, and overwhelmingly it's been shot down. Given a PC's ability to go Nova, it's just a matter of who shots first most of the time. I get giving them at-wills, utilities, and maybe a couple encounter powers at most. A daily is special because you can't use it every fight, but if the NPC only has to fight once, then it's just a super-powered encounter power.

[wayfare]

Rocket tag is actually not all that bad, as rezzing is very easy in this game. Each fight, the players win Staggering amounts of wealth (Something like 50 platinum a match), and can spend their winnings on the following:

Rezzing after the match (moderate expense)

Rezzing during a fight (very expensive)

Purchasing Healing that uses a healing surge (once per encounter, kinda cheap)

Purchasing Healing that does not use a surge (Once per encounter, moderately expensive -- you cannot use the above and this ability in the same round)

Purchase a round of actions (very expensive, only useable after round 1, only usable once per encounter)

Purchasing Monstrous allies (up to one ally per character, up you your level in terms of monster level)

Purchasing terrain alterations (cost varies by size)

So, death isn't a big worry. Even a TPK can be dealt with if the party picks up a sponsor willing to rez. Really, it about looking cool. Winning gives you a bonus to your earnings, but dying is not the end of the world.

[DragonBaneDM]

Hm... Okay, I see what you mean. Given the tournament style of this session you're planning, I think this could work out alright.

[Alejandro]

Depending on the matchups, expect some very quick fights. A good striker will kill a good leader in possibly 1 to 2 rounds, depending on initiative.

What crowd attending gladiator games wants to see fights that are over that fast?

[wayfare]

Depending on the matchups, expect some very quick fights. A good striker will kill a good leader in possibly 1 to 2 rounds, depending on initiative.

What crowd attending gladiator games wants to see fights that are over that fast?

It's team on team, so I expect a balanced group of 4 to do well. One on one match-ups will usually have some kind of "run the gauntlet" aspect to them -- as in you win by killing the opponent, capturing the flag, or using environmental triggers to do your dirty work for you.

As an example:

A one on one match-up is set in a 200 x 200 x 100 foot room. The rear wall can be mounted by a series of stairs that opens up an oval roughly 50 x 30. Rear wall of the oval area can be climbed. Touching the rune stone at the top counts as a win. If your enemy is reduced to 0 hp you win.

When the match begins, a counter appears in the sky above the arena. If the combat is not finished by the time the counter hits 0, a random effect happens (roll 1d6)

1: 6 Kobold quickblades enter the arena with a 5 platinum bounty on their heads (you get 5 pp for each kobold you kill)

2: The arena begins to fill with water at a rate of 1 square of water per round. After 5 rounds, sharks and giant crabs are released into the water.

3: Each combatant makes a saving throw. On a failure, they are smote with lightning for 2d6 + 3 damage

4: The arena is filled with a wall of fog 2 squares high on all horizontal terrain.

5: A random leveled character (including a PC if they volunteer) enters the competition.

6: The runestone becomes elite monster of equivalent level. Any character that takes it down doubles their earnings.

[wayfare]

Sorry, post lag.

[Mando Knight]

At the same time, play any PC-build creatures as if they were expecting to fight for several encounters if the PCs are going to as well, giving them a 1 daily/encounter cap per character. If the PCs start going full-out nova, then you can relax that limit yourself.

[DrSaering]

Whenever I have a situation like this, rather than use an NPC class template or take stuff directly from the PC classes and give it to the NPCs, I generally design a new monster with abilities thematically similar to the class they are supposed to have.

This also gives me the ability to give the NPCs things to represent special spells or martial arts they picked up to give them a bit of unique flavour.

However, given what you have described I am not certain if that fits your needs; just thought I'd throw out how I do things in case it helps.

[Leon]

Don't do it.


Do it, just don't over do it.

[Mando Knight]

Whenever I have a situation like this, rather than use an NPC class template or take stuff directly from the PC classes and give it to the NPCs, I generally design a new monster with abilities thematically similar to the class they are supposed to have.

A class template is just a quick & dirty way of doing this.