Beguiler Necromancer? (Help)

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I'm currently playing a Beguiler. The original idea around the character was that of a Dread Necro, and the fluff for the character is very much the same.

The character is obsessed with undead. Her plan is to try and bring her family back to life. With this in mind, she practices. I am, as of yet, as a beguiler, impossible of achieving this end.

Thanks to Rainbow Servant, I will eventually have access to Cleric spells which is awesome. Part of what I would like to do really falls into Cleric territory, but what I lack is turn/rebuke undead to make it work.

Is there any way for a Beguiler to mimic this ability (ie. Turn/Rebuke Undead)? How can a Beguiler control/dominate undead? How would you make a Beguiler Necromancer work?

Thanks.

[gkathellar]

Sacred Exorcist is the typical way of getting Turn Undead. Easy entry, 1-level dip.

[DrDeth]

Umm, now this is just a really weird and crazy idea- but why not play a Dread Necromancer, rather than the exact opposite?:smallwink:

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Sacred Exorcist is the typical way of getting Turn Undead. Easy entry, 1-level dip.

I hadn't thought of that. With an effective Turning level of 1st, though, I'd be unable to control any undead.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Umm, now this is just a really weird and crazy idea- but why not play a Dread Necromancer, rather than the exact opposite?:smallwink:

Cause the party as a whole has much more use fr a Beguiler. I'm happy playing one, I'm just trying to see if there is a way to get the best of both worlds.

[gkathellar]

Cause the party as a whole has much more use fr a Beguiler. I'm happy playing one, I'm just trying to see if there is a way to get the best of both worlds.

Ah. Well, if you're willing to go into really questionable Tier 1 territory, you can have it both ways. With the Magical Training feat from PGtF, you get a wizard's spellbook. With Versatile Spellcaster, you can cast any spell you know using two slots of one level lower. Since you know any spell scribed in your spellbook, that lets you cast wizard spells spontaneously through Versatile Spellcaster. And since everything on the Beguiler list is also on the Wizard list ...

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Ah. Well, if you're willing to go into really questionable Tier 1 territory, you can have it both ways. With the Magical Training feat from PGtF, you get a wizard's spellbook. With Versatile Spellcaster, you can cast any spell you know using two slots of one level lower. Since you know any spell scribed in your spellbook, that lets you cast wizard spells spontaneously through Versatile Spellcaster. And since everything on the Beguiler list is also on the Wizard list ...

The issue I have at present is, if I cast say Create Undead, how would I actually control it? Are you suggesting continued use of Command Undead? What about for controlling slightly larger groups (I'm not looking for more than 4 or 5; I don't want to be a douche to my DM)?

[gkathellar]

My point is you could go Dread Necromancer and still get all Beguiler spells (and more).

[Tibbaerrohwen]

My point is you could go Dread Necromancer and still get all Beguiler spells (and more).

I see your point, and you are right, but the point of taking beguiler isn't just the spells. The additional skills (as my group lacks a rogue and could use a back-up face) are more the point.

[Coidzor]

To be honest, for that effect I'd've probably gone with a Dread Necromancer base and then taken Prestige Bard in order to learn a number of useful spells off of the Bard list automatically, which, depending upon DM, will give me a fair bit of the Beguiler's list from 1-7, maybe 1-8, and then some.

[gkathellar]

I see your point, and you are right, but the point of taking beguiler isn't just the spells. The additional skills (as my group lacks a rogue and could use a back-up face) are more the point.

Then I'm not sure what you can do. Turn/Rebuke Undead usually comes from Cleric, Paladin, Dread Necromancer, or Sacred Exorcist, and aside from taking classes that have or scale the feature there aren't a whole lot of ways to progress it.

I'd say your best bet if you really want skills and turning on an arcane caster is to take a Dread Necromancer with Magical Training into the Unseen Seer prestige class. Qualification is easy, although it'll delay your Rainbow Servant capstone.

[Madara]

It's interesting that you sacrifice your own character concept for the party:smallannoyed:

My suggestion: Just go with the Dread Necro or what you want. There are plenty of ways to get around lacking a rogue, and plenty of ways to make a contribution to making up for the lack of a sneak.

Are you human? Take human Paragon to get the skills.
Need a trapfinder? Send your undead to spring the traps.
If you're having too many problems, take cleric (necro themed tier 1) and rogue dip at first level for the skills and such, which will bring you down to the tier 3 you sound like you're aiming for.

[sreservoir]

making a beguiler necromancer seems a bit like using a screwdriver to put nails in, while holding a hammer in the other hand.

perhaps a trickery/kobold cloistered cleric of kurtulmak?

[Coidzor]

It's interesting that you sacrifice your own character concept for the party:smallannoyed:

My suggestion: Just go with the Dread Necro or what you want. There are plenty of ways to get around lacking a rogue, and plenty of ways to make a contribution to making up for the lack of a sneak.

Are you human? Take human Paragon to get the skills.
Need a trapfinder? Send your undead to spring the traps.
If you're having too many problems, take cleric (necro themed tier 1) and rogue dip at first level for the skills and such, which will bring you down to the tier 3 you sound like you're aiming for.

Or, hell, just get the DM to rule away the stupidity of trapfinding as a class feature rather than a function of the search and disable device skills.

What exactly are you wanting? What exactly do you feel you need? What is it abou beguiler that's causing you to want it for the party over dread necromancer?

What level are you starting at? What level are you thinking you'll play until?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

It's interesting that you sacrifice your own character concept for the party:smallannoyed:

My suggestion: Just go with the Dread Necro or what you want. There are plenty of ways to get around lacking a rogue, and plenty of ways to make a contribution to making up for the lack of a sneak.

Are you human? Take human Paragon to get the skills.
Need a trapfinder? Send your undead to spring the traps.
If you're having too many problems, take cleric (necro themed tier 1) and rogue dip at first level for the skills and such, which will bring you down to the tier 3 you sound like you're aiming for.

I am human. I've already started and played a session with the character. I don't mind it; it's not really much of a sacrifice at all. The class works fine with the character concept.


Or, hell, just get the DM to rule away the stupidity of trapfinding as a class feature rather than a function of the search and disable device skills.

What exactly are you wanting? What exactly do you feel you need? What is it abou beguiler that's causing you to want it for the party over dread necromancer?

What level are you starting at? What level are you thinking you'll play until?

I'm starting at 3rd level. I don't know how long it'll go on for. We shall see.

I'd really just like the ability to create and control undead. I get that with the Rainbow Servant capstone, but it's a little late in the build, seeing as it was originally supposed to be an ongoing theme for my character.


Then I'm not sure what you can do. Turn/Rebuke Undead usually comes from Cleric, Paladin, Dread Necromancer, or Sacred Exorcist, and aside from taking classes that have or scale the feature there aren't a whole lot of ways to progress it.

I'd say your best bet if you really want skills and turning on an arcane caster is to take a Dread Necromancer with Magical Training into the Unseen Seer prestige class. Qualification is easy, although it'll delay your Rainbow Servant capstone.

I'm curious, can I really, by RAW, copy wizard spells into my spell book and cast them as if I know them, with Magical Training? This would solve my problem.

[gkathellar]

It requires Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. And since Magical Training is a regional feat, it can only be taken at first level (though you can do the same thing by taking one wizard level).

But yeah, Versatile Spellcaster's incredibly nonspecific text lets you cast any spell you know, regardless of how you know it, or whether you actually have access to spells of its level. How exactly that works is hard to determine —*do things like CL and DC depend on the spell's source, or on the slots you cast it with? I tend to go with the latter, since you're casting it as an [X] spontaneous caster. If you prefer to go with the former, there are still ways around it (Geomancer and Master Spellthief come to mind).

[sreservoir]

no, you need versatile spellcaster to be able to cast them. you know the spells, and you have the slot (well, pseudoslot) to cast them from. they aren't from the same class, but versatile spellcaster doesn't actually care.

[Fouredged Sword]

You control undead you raise based on your caster level (you can control CLx4 HD of undead) as per the raise dead spell. You do not need turn attempts to control undead you raise. Rebuke undead is for controlling undead you did not create.

Get a runestaff of control undead if you really want to be able to control undead you run across.

Even characters reading scrolls of raise dead can control the undead they raise useing the CL of the scroll they read.

[gkathellar]

You control undead you raise based on your caster level (you can control CLx4 HD of undead) as per the raise dead spell. You do not need turn attempts to control undead you raise. Rebuke undead is for controlling undead you did not create.

Get a runestaff of control undead if you really want to be able to control undead you run across.

Even characters reading scrolls of raise dead can control the undead they raise useing the CL of the scroll they read.

Uh ... are you sure you're talking about Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)? And not, say, Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm)?

But yeah, good catch.

[sreservoir]

create undead. raise dead is a conjuration (healing) which brings characters back from the dead.

[Fouredged Sword]

Posting without referencing the SRD FAIL!!!!!

[Coidzor]

I'm starting at 3rd level. I don't know how long it'll go on for. We shall see.

I'd really just like the ability to create and control undead. I get that with the Rainbow Servant capstone, but it's a little late in the build, seeing as it was originally supposed to be an ongoing theme for my character.

That's... that's not a good combination you've just stated there. Rainbow Servant gets its capstone at, what, 15th level? 16th? That's... well, unlikely for you to actually get, for one. You'd be better off just setting the beguiler levels on fire and going cleric and getting animate dead at ECL 8.

Or even taking a level of Ur-Priest and then being a Mystic Theurge. I think you'd get Animate Dead as a Beguiler 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 1 at 11th level, and, conveniently, Mystic Theurge for the next 9 levels if you got that high, would afford you 9ths on both sides, even if you'd only get 9th level beguiler casting at 20th due to the two lost levels. This is from memory though, so you might qualify earlier or later for Ur-Priest as a Beguiler.

The only classes that get undead animation at 3rd level are the Deathmaster and the artificer via crafting. Unless you arcane disciple'd animate dead, you wouldn't get it as anything other than a cleric/favored soul by 6th level. Wizards get it at 7th and spontaneous arcane casters get it at 8th if they get it at all. :/

Create Undead is generally not the way to go for minions anyway, though, as things like wights and shadows can be made via a summoned wight(or unholy/holy/axiomatic/anarchic arrow and a commoner) or shadow and the resultant non-summoned spawn can then be rebuked into servitude for a chain of spawn. But you generally don't really want that in most games.

4-6 good, solid Skeletons -> Zombie Hydras(bonus points if you torture them before killing them so they get double the number of heads before they die and so have the same number of attacks as they do HD) -> Draconomicon Undead will more than suffice for your purposes of combat undead, leaving you, likely, with some HD to spare for more utilitarian undead or you can drop down to 3 good minions and a form with more utility that can also hit in a pinch.

[gkathellar]

That's... that's not a good combination you've just stated there. Rainbow Servant gets its capstone at, what, 15th level? 16th?

I keep forgetting that people do Rainbow Servants without early entry.

[Coidzor]

I keep forgetting that people do Rainbow Servants without early entry.

Even with Early Entry, 10 levels is a pretty significant delay if you've no idea if the campaign will last past low level at all. :/

[Fouredged Sword]

I would personally just get fell animate and some meta magic reducers to get started on the path of the necromancer.

[gkathellar]

Even with Early Entry, 10 levels is a pretty significant delay if you've no idea if the campaign will last past low level at all. :/

Eh. 11th+ is pretty solid. The Beguiler route is arguably better than the DN or Warmage one for Rainbow Servant, though, because their spell lists are pretty awful and DN without its class features isn't worth it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would personally just get fell animate and some meta magic reducers to get started on the path of the necromancer.

You'd still need a good spell that can kill things to put Fell Animate on. Beguilers don't get many spells that actually kill. For that matter, they don't get many spells that actually deal damage. The Whelm series, for example, simply deals nonlethal.

On the whole, it's not an insurmountable problem, although Rainbow Servant is the long way to go about doing this. Arcane Devotee (Death) would be the quick and dirty way to incorporate the creating of undead into the beguiler spell list.

You don't need turn/rebuke undead to command them. It's build into creating them.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

It requires Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster. And since Magical Training is a regional feat, it can only be taken at first level (though you can do the same thing by taking one wizard level).

But yeah, Versatile Spellcaster's incredibly nonspecific text lets you cast any spell you know, regardless of how you know it, or whether you actually have access to spells of its level. How exactly that works is hard to determine —*do things like CL and DC depend on the spell's source, or on the slots you cast it with? I tend to go with the latter, since you're casting it as an [X] spontaneous caster. If you prefer to go with the former, there are still ways around it (Geomancer and Master Spellthief come to mind).


no, you need versatile spellcaster to be able to cast them. you know the spells, and you have the slot (well, pseudoslot) to cast them from. they aren't from the same class, but versatile spellcaster doesn't actually care.

But, I am still treated as knowing spells copied in the spellbook that are not from my class list, even if they are above the three level 0 spells mentioned in the feat? That' really all I'm concerned about, cause this solves my problem.


I would personally just get fell animate and some meta magic reducers to get started on the path of the necromancer.

What Shneeky said.

[Greenish]

Necromantic Bloodline (Dragon Compendium) feat would get Control Undead and a bunch of other thematically undead-related spells on your spell list.

Fiend-Blooded (HoH) PrC would also allow you to add Necromancy spells to your spells known.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Necromantic Bloodline (Dragon Compendium) feat would get Control Undead and a bunch of other thematically undead-related spells on your spell list.

Fiend-Blooded (HoH) PrC would also allow you to add Necromancy spells to your spells known.

Not bad suggestions, but the Necromatic Bloodline des not give me access tot he spells I'd really like, for the most part, which are Animate Dead and Command Undead.

I'll need to look into Fiend-Blooded; I haven't checked it out in a long time.

[DreadWarlock]

if it is not late and you're still playing the same char,
you could also enter palemaster class from libris mortis
it is a 9/10 casting with undead stuff... if you can get vampirc touch and command undead, why not try and take a look.