Dm Tip: Holy BLEEP are dragons tough!

[WebTiefling]

I'm running a campaign that is dragon-centric. Dragons are the great overlords who only concern themselves with the affairs of lesser power when they are still young. By the time they start getting to the Old level, they are above the concerns of most minor adventurers. They've had centuries to build their wealth and design their niches in the world, with lairs having a hundred years worth of carefully designed protections.

Younger dragons are ignored by older dragons - if they get killed off by some adventurers, then obviously they were of poor quality.

A horde of half a million gp's worth isn't out of the question for an Old dragon. (accumulation of 5000 gp per year for a century) They love their treasure, but they love to protect it as well, and so don't skimp on acquiring powerful magic items (as any intelligent creature should be doing anyway). They deal with other dragons, and the few other powers in the world who are in their lofty power brackets.

This is where I'm at, and I've painted myself into a corner, so to speak. The BBEG, as it has developed, is a Very Old Red Dragon. He is nearly eight hundred years old, total net worth in nearing ten million (and equipment to match).

When I first sketched him out (before knowing he was to become a prime antagonist), I gave him several levels of Sorcerer bumping him up 16th level caster. I'm taking those away and retconning it so that he was using scrolls for the Banishments he had cast a couple sessions ago.

Still, in the universe I've built up, he has awesome equipment and an extremely heavily fortified set of lairs. He has become the BBEG.

My group is approaching 20th level (18th Evoker, 18th Summoner, 19th Monk, 19th Rogue, 19th Paladin with a 17th level Cleric cohort). However, we've never played this high before (we're usually 3rd to 15th range, but started at 12th this time), and I can tell my players are floundering a bit trying to figure out how to go after this guy.

I have the feeling this is my fault for making him too tough. Any suggestions?

For example, he teleported to a room in the lair they were invading using his teleport stones, and was heavily buffed when he arrived. First thing they knew of him was when he cast Blood Wind to totally kill one of the wizards. (that freaking level 1 spell is incredible for dragons!, and they did have two moderate difficulty rolls to "notice" him beforehand) The team was already pretty well buffed for dragon combat, but it still only lasted four rounds before they all teleported out, tails between their legs with a corpse in tow. (their second "Oh Bleep" moment was when he breathed lightning on them since they were all protected against fire)

The evil DM in me chortled in glee, but in the next two sessions they have floundered to figure out how to go after the dragon again. I didn't think I made the dragon fight particularly deviously, and I don't want to nerf the dragon just so they can kill it, but neither do I want him to be phenomenally beyond them either, which is what I suspect I've done.

Any suggestions (for me or the players)?

[Ceaon]

Maybe introduce a rival dragon NPC that wants to kill the BBEG as well and can provide the party with help, items, certain spells, give them quests that help them find special equipment, or tell them about the BBEG's weaknesses and routine? Hard to not make it seem like a railroad, so you should really work this NPC into the narrative.

[DarkestKnight]

Just wondering is this 3.5 or pathfinder? i ask for the sake of mechanics as I understand some 3.5 shenanigans don't work in PF. I am more familiar with 3.5 so I'll try to stick with that for now.

iIf you can get your hands on the Draconomicon sourcebook it has a slew of neat stuff in it like dragon armor etc. Anyways there are two things of note here, one is there are two PRCS that are made to hunt and kill dragons. You could hint to your PCs that they could hire a legendary NPC in the area for the hunt.

The second is kind of a greasy tactic and one that at least one person in your party may object to (paladin I'm looking at you). There is an item called the dracolich brew. It's a potion (dragon sized i assume) that does 2d6 con (primary and secondary) with a fort DC of 25. Oh and if it's brewed for a specific dragon it just kills that dragon outright, no save. All you need is a volunteer (Paladin I'm looking at you), the potion, a liberal application of BBQ sauce, and a decent bluff check. Now because this creation would have the effect of derailing an entire arc I would assume, you could later have the dragon come back as a dracolich which would likely give the players another headache but a very old Red dracolich smells a lot like a BBEG or at least his minion.

[Rubik]

Maybe introduce a rival dragon NPC that wants to kill the BBEG as well and can provide the party with help, items, certain spells, give them quests that help them find special equipment, or tell them about the BBEG's weaknesses and routine? Hard to not make it seem like a railroad, so you should really work this NPC into the narrative.That, or another friendly caster.

And for bonus points, try and get your party to seek him out as an ally. It won't seem like railroading if THEY go after HIM.

[Randomguy]

Maximized shivering touch would probably make it too easy...

If the party gets their hands on a scroll of elemental immunity, the wizards can learn it and cast it twice on each party member, once against lightning and against fire. That would help against the breath weapon. If the wizards buff up with ghostform and elemental immunity, unless the dragon enchants his natural weapons somehow he doesn't have any way of hurting the wizard, other than spells.

If the PC's use stealth tactics then that might increase their chances. Isn't there a spell called hide from dragons?

[Ancient Mage]

The Secrets of Dragon Slaying are partially given in the Draconomicon, which is a really good book, by the way.
A mage of mine and his cleric ally had some success with dragons before by using certain spells. We were 20th level and killed a great wyrm gold dragon (it was evil for some reason). The trick is the spell from spell compendium, Avasculate. It halves the hit points of the monster with no save. I cast it twice using my rod of quicken and then the cleric slew it.
I have no knowledge of your players, but if they get inventive and look through resources, they will find a tricky way to kill it. Encourage them to find a way.

-Ancient Mage

"Nature will always find a way"-Ian Malcolm

[Vanzanze]

Without cheezing it up too badly, there's always the option of your characters actually using skills like "Gather Information" (gasp, I know) to learn some things they weren't even aware of at encounter time.

They know now that the dragon can choose fire or electricity, so they can be prepared against both of those now. Don't give the dragon any other new weapons, or you'll make the PCs mad.

Does this dragon have some sort of fatal flaw passed down in legends, even if those legends are obscure or obfuscated in wording? Find a bard. Pay him for his time and research. Figure out some kind of tactic that would work against BBEG.

Using tricks that everyday people would think of is (IMO) always superior to the tricks that the munchkin in the group thought of because he had the right supplement book.

[Toliudar]

I was part of a team of five level-20's (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Ranger focused on dragonslaying) that took on a well-prepared and intelligent CR 20 dragon in its lair. It took three days of hard work just to FIND the lair, and then a running battle that was non-stop work against minions, wards and the dragon itself. About 30 rounds of high level play - COMPLICATED. And we fought it to a draw before retreating (but also forcing it to abandon its lair). All of which is to say...yes, dragons are tough.

It's time to guide the players towards a temporary dip into some cheese. Perhaps the monk should get Polymorph Any Object-ed into a dragon also. The rogue invests in a custom object that blocks dragon's blindsense so that they can still sneak up on it. The cleric cohort picks up rods of reach and chain, so that a few key buffs (energy immunity, superior resistance, etc) can be shared among the group.

It's not impossible, but yeah, dragons are hard. Good choice, taking away the advanced spellcasting.

[Dragon Star]

Give them some kind of homebrew item that weakens him. Like dragon rend in skyrim. A sword, or scroll, or potion that weakens him enough to make it a fair fight, but still leaves him strong enough for it to be really hard. Maybe take away half his spellcasting ability, or let them read his thoughts, or make them invisible to him.

[WebTiefling]

Wow, that's a lot of great ideas! I have The Draconomicon, and I agree, lots of great stuff in there. That's a bit of the problem, I think it gave me too many ideas to give the BBEG dragon.

The Breath Weapon Substitution spell was what it used for changing its breath. (I rolled a random die to pick which breath the dragon picked - Lighting, Acid, or Cold). Ditto for the Fly spell - it let's the dragon fly without flapping, so it was MUCH more quiet coming up on them. He never let loose with his Dispelling Breath spell, so that'll be a nice surprise for them next time for when they're all buffed up. The Rogue was pissed that one of his SA's failed to the dragon's Fortified armor. If they take him on in his own lair, they're going to have the waves of minions/traps/wards/etc which Toliudar mentioned.

Part of the problem is that they aren't specialized in taking down dragons, which they need to be for the tough dragons.

I love the suggestions for a specialized dragon hunter NPC! I'll drop a clue or two. The group is pretty good, and did a fair bit of good "Gather Information" checking to find out about the dragon (Vanzanze). A bit more will probably bring the idea of a dragon hunter who might be able to help, for a considerable sum of money, of course.

The custom items are a good idea too. I think we're wrapping up these characters after this, so no future Dracoliches, but a specialized poison would be good. Thanks DarkestKnight!

AncientMage - wow! I'll have to look up Avasculate. None of them know that spell, but a session of gaming should let them find it. Randomguy - I don't have that book, but based on what I can find online, Shivering Touch sounds a bit too much. 3d6 Dex damage without possible Save as a 3rd level spell?? Like you said - a bit cheesy.

The Rival Dragon is the route they were poking at last time, and if they pursue that route, that should open up all sorts of you guys' suggestions!

Awesome help guys! (and more suggestions are welcome)

When it sets off, I'll try to give a summary. Session tomorrow, and a session on Friday. (several of our people are still on break, so lots of sessions right now, which ROCKS!)

[Demon of Death]

I don't have that book, but based on what I can find online, Shivering Touch sounds a bit too much. 3d6 Dex damage without possible Save as a 3rd level spell?? Like you said - a bit cheesy.

It is also a touch spell and allows SR, so that does help to mitigate it being a One-Hit dragon killer, plus it does have a Lesser Version which does 1d6 for a 1st Level Spell

Plus here they are, Lesser (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/shivering-touch-lesser--1292/) and Normal (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/shivering-touch--1291/)

[jiriku]

If you weaken him to make him beatable, players may resent that, because the victory becomes cheap. The same can occur if you artificially power them up with DM-provided items, NPCs, or tactics.

Suggestion: Keep him at his present power level. Don't help your players. Instead, position an allied NPC to propose that the players need not defeat the dragon in direct combat in order to best him. For example, they might:

Bring his plans to ruin so that his goals are set back by a century, saving the world until another day, when another group of heroes will have to confront him.
Place him in an untenable situation where pursuing his original goal will cost him something too valuable, forcing him to sacrifice his plans in order to protect what he values.
Trick or entice him into a duel of wits or a game of skill, with victory for one side or the other contingent on the outcome. This allows them to potentially challenge him where they are strong and he is weak. Requires that the dragon be the sort that would honor his word, or that the game carry a magical compulsion to honor its result.

There are many variations on this idea, but the concept is that you don't necessarily have to kill your opponent to defeat him.

[tyckspoon]

It is also a touch spell and allows SR, so that does help to mitigate it being a One-Hit dragon killer, plus it does have a Lesser Version which does 1d6 for a 1st Level Spell


It's also a [Cold] spell and ability damage, which are both things a Red dragon with that much experience and resources available to it really should be immune to. Finding out just how he's protected himself from those kind of spells and stripping those protections so you can deliver the hit sounds like the sort of thing WebTiefling's party needs to/should be doing, but I wouldn't expect it to work if you just walked up to the dragon and said "hi there, Shivering Touch!"

[molten_dragon]

My first thought is to give the players a way to destroy or take away most of his wealth. A CR 21 dragon is a relatively tough fight for an 18-19th level party, especially if played smart. Give that same dragon ten times the money that a level 21 PC would have, and then you have a huge problem on your hands. Honestly, I'm not sure what possessed you to give him so much wealth in the first place. Disjunction will be your players' best friend in this sort of fight. Not only because of his ridiculous wealth, but because it will strip off the magical protections he'll have running. If they don't have access to the spell, give them a few scrolls of it somehow.

[DonDuckie]

I admit it: I haven't read all of the suggestions, so this may bbe a repeat.

With a dragon this powerful and in love with wealth, he/she must occasionally leave the lair to amass more wealth, and it is reasonable to assume that nearby treasure is scarce. So such a quest could take some time, and give the party time to disable some of the dragon's defenses, sure it has stuff to alert it, but everything can be circumvented.

And if it knows/uses teleport, there is nothing prohibiting teleporting, and if it's Pathfinder, there is a nice 6th level spell "Getaway"; it's cast in advance and a word triggers a teleport to the place cast. This allows them to get out, should the dragon return.

This will take a bit longer, ie. two missions.

Another approach would be to lure it to an alledged treasure and ambush it. This takes away its homefield advantage. And gives surprise to the players.

Also: the PF smite evil might be a good choice for the paladin, if you're open to that.

[Ancient Mage]

Another trick is to let the characters get allies of their own through magic. In Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium (I admit it, I'm a fanatical wizard) there is another spell besides Avasculate, called Summon Elemental Monolith. For a 9th level spell you can summon a CR 17 elemental. This is of course, slightly broken, but it will level the playing field against the dragon if they have something of that power level on their side.

-Ancient Mage

[Demonic_Spoon]

Also, since dragons usually have a horrible dex, buff your meleers up with wraithstrike to ignore all that natural armour.

[WebTiefling]

(we're 3.5)
Neither wizard character knows Disjunction, but yes, that spell has come up, and they've acquired one such scroll. They were also talking about some specialized weapons/spells, but they weren't sure what to look for. Last session had them doing a lot of research on the BBEG, so they've got a pretty good idea of what he's like.

He doesn't "get out" much, rather setting up plans remotely, and teleporting to where he needs to be, doing his stuff, and teleporting back. Major anti-scrying/nondetection/etc on his caves and on himself. They have a couple clues as to what he might be planning, so maybe they could nail him while he's out, but if he begins to lose, he doesn't have much incentive to stay and fight. Anti-teleport spells have been discussed, but they're tough to pin to an already powerfully mobile enemy.

The other way to make sure he doesn't flee is to hit him in his cave where he can't afford to flee. I think they're leaning that way. We'll see. They have managed to find his main cave system, though they don't realize there were a bunch of other options they could have taken. (darn them rolling a natural 20 on a Gather Information check! :smalltongue: )

I've put together a dragonkiller NPC (lvl 20 "fighter"), and they've already made some contact with a rival who might be willing to sponsor them with some help. (maybe the dragonkiller NPC, or some specialized equipment, or some spell, or some potential weaknesses) The two wizards are close to leveling to 19th, and probably will unless they decide to spend the entire session in talking preparation or something.

Tonight will tell how it proceeds.

molten_dragon - I have standards that goes counter to the official loot measurements. A major dragon should be able to EASILY accumulate 5000gp per year. If he can do so for 200 years, he'll have a million gp. I gave him about a 300,000 gp budget for equipment and hoard protections, along with six CR 12-17-ish protective troops of various sorts. He has about a 500,000 gp hoard left over for loot.

I suspect this is going to be a retirement adventure for the characters, so I'm not worried about going overboard on the loot for them. In other situations, I've been careful to design encounters so they don't wind up with 500k gp in loot.

[Mando Knight]

And if it knows/uses teleport, there is nothing prohibiting teleporting, and if it's Pathfinder, there is a nice 6th level spell "Getaway"; it's cast in advance and a word triggers a teleport to the place cast. This allows them to get out, should the dragon return.

Dimensional Anchor, or Dimensional Lock + Forcecage.

[Ancient Mage]

Perhaps another way your players can get an advantage is by the surprise attack. A limited wish in conjunction with a greater scrying would break through most anti-divination barriers. ("I wish that this scrying can see into the dragon's lair, regardless of magic barriers") Then, with the lair mapped out, they can use another limited wish/teleport duo to break through anti-teleport measures and attack the dragon. This bypasses the traps and wards, and gets them into the fight right away.
The problem with many of these posts (including mine) is that you would need to find a hook to get them to learn these tricks. Perhaps a wise wizard-sage could give them advice (forcing them to seek him out).

-Ancient Mage

[Demonic_Spoon]

Not to mention shapechanging into a dire turtle and utilizing superior invisibility.

[WebTiefling]

Mando Knight, I think he's a bit too big for a Forcecage to work. That would be nice, though.

Ancient Mage, a Mind Blank item was one of the first things I bought for the dragon. Even Wish can't get through that, unfortunately. Permanent Mage's Private Sanctums blanket everything. Though, yes, Limited Wish can be combined with Scrying to get through the Sanctum. (they haven't thought of this yet) Even with that, though, they still won't know where the dragon is in the complex.

For y'all FYI, there are rotating silent illusions which change the look of the inner rooms every minute. If they scry and jump quickly, they'll be fine. Otherwise, oops! Permanent MPS blankets everything, inner and outer rooms. Inner rooms are illusion-protected and the outer rooms are all permanent Dimension Locked. There isn't much in the way of traps, only one per room and only in the outer rooms, but they're designed to be very nasty (setting off multiple spells). Everything is Alarmed in various ways. The troops are tough (six CR 12-17 individuals or small groups) but not a serious problem for the players.

The dragon himself is wearing about 120,000 in equipment that he always has which either buffs or can be activated for some protection/buffs (Haste, Gr Invis, Stoneskin, etc). His spells tend to be used to augment his own attacks, (Dispelling Breath, Blood Wind, Breath Substitution, etc) though he does have a wand of Dispel Magic on hand. One of the items is continual Anticipate Teleportation with a 50' radius. I considered buying him a continuous Spell Resistance item, but didn't.

One idea which got mentioned last time was to summon hordes of attackers (prepare lots of scrolls) as if for a frontal assault, complete with illusions of the party waiting for the attackers to clear out the initial traps/troops. But, in reality teleport in to surprise the dragon, hopefully catching him without any help available.

[DonDuckie]

Mando Knight, I think he's a bit too big for a Forcecage to work. That would be nice, though.

Ancient Mage, a Mind Blank item was one of the first things I bought for the dragon. Even Wish can't get through that, unfortunately. Permanent Mage's Private Sanctums blanket everything. Though, yes, Limited Wish can be combined with Scrying to get through the Sanctum. (they haven't thought of this yet) Even with that, though, they still won't know where the dragon is in the complex.

For y'all FYI, there are rotating silent illusions which change the look of the inner rooms every minute. If they scry and jump quickly, they'll be fine. Otherwise, oops! Permanent MPS blankets everything, inner and outer rooms. Inner rooms are illusion-protected and the outer rooms are all permanent Dimension Locked. There isn't much in the way of traps, only one per room and only in the outer rooms, but they're designed to be very nasty (setting off multiple spells). Everything is Alarmed in various ways. The troops are tough (six CR 12-17 individuals or small groups) but not a serious problem for the players.

The dragon himself is wearing about 120,000 in equipment that he always has which either buffs or can be activated for some protection/buffs (Haste, Gr Invis, Stoneskin, etc). His spells tend to be used to augment his own attacks, (Dispelling Breath, Blood Wind, Breath Substitution, etc) though he does have a wand of Dispel Magic on hand. One of the items is continual Anticipate Teleportation with a 50' radius. I considered buying him a continuous Spell Resistance item, but didn't.

One idea which got mentioned last time was to summon hordes of attackers (prepare lots of scrolls) as if for a frontal assault, complete with illusions of the party waiting for the attackers to clear out the initial traps/troops. But, in reality teleport in to surprise the dragon, hopefully catching him without any help available.

For the magic gear - this is what Disjunction is for.

For the frontal attack. I once hired 100 beggars cheaply for a few weeks to "help carry heavy loot". When we stood in the opening of the ancient cave-complex rumored to be filled with traps... I cast fear on them and chased them into the cave :smallbiggrin: 95 beggars running for their lives down a tunnel from a halfling chasing them yelling "MUHAHAHAHAHAH". They died. We got less XP :smalleek:

[Alienist]

Do they really have to kill it?

Consider the role playing opportunities if they have to find some other way of taking it on other than direct confrontation.

If the bbeg has been picking on them, have it get bored and lose interest.

Have it do the Xykon vs Roy speech (the one on the zombie dragon).
You know, the come back in 10 levels one when this will be an interesting fight.

Changing it to make him a push over just cheapens him as a threat.
It's like star trek and the borg. The first time they're introduced they're this unstoppable force, but after they've been stopped 5 times they cease to be a credible opponent.

Give him back the sorcerer levels, and fight dirty with him (if they invade his fortress again). People tend to take home invasions very poorly! Why should a dragon be any different?

[Ancient Mage]

Sounds like actually getting to the dragon will be tougher than fighting it. In this case, I would suggest a very interesting form of movement not often considered or utilized.

Xorn Movement spell, coupled with superior invisibility, and put the rest of the party into a rope trick. A perfectly invisible hero, swimming through solid rock, before emerging suddenly with the whole party right where the dragon is.

Give your characters a break and let them get a suprise round. Avasculate the dragon, summon some monsters, hit it hard and fast. The battle will go from there with an extremely tough, but weakened dragon. They should be able to win.

-Ancient Mage

[WebTiefling]

Ancient Mage, you are truly diabolical in your cunning! I may very well bring forward that suggestion.

Don Duckie - that is HILARIOUS! Unfortunately the Paladin wouldn't stand for it. I would give my players some MAD experience for something like that. (and move their alignments toward evil and unless they were very circumspect they would get a couple Paladin enemies to boot)

Alienist - I'm afraid it's past that point. This one's going to the mattress. From the metagaming POV, the players have blood in their eyes. They were PISSED that they got chased out and pissed about a later retaliation by the dragon.

On the in-game situation, the characters have been a significant PITA to the dragon, so the dragon isn't going to quit. Besides, he thinks he has the major upper hand.

To top it off, the dragon did indeed retaliate. They had initially retreated to their own fortress for some Resurrection action, but then went out gathering information. While they were sleeping in an inn, the dragon teleported to just outside and dropped a buttload of Stunning Fire on their room while they were waking up. (the rogue heard the dragon flapping outside and was sounding the alarm when the fire came in)

Everyone got toasted nicely, the two wizards were down to teens HP and stunned. The unstunned people grabbed the stunned people and fled the room in their skivvies. A Maximized Fireball followed them and took the Paladin down to 1 HP as they exited out the door. (no fudging the dice! I swear!)

The dragon couldn't see if they had died or not, and as the city's guard was reacting at this point, he teleported back out. Several people died, but the dragon paid blood money along with a message making up a story about how the PCs had tried to assassinate him and this was just a warning shot, and apologized for any collateral loss of life. The city didn't want to follow up on it, and between the money and the explanation they just wanted the PCs out of the city.

Yeah, the PCs are pissed off. I don't know why, though! Most of their stuff was safe inside protected chests!. (they've had nighttime thieves before) :smallamused:

[Ithandor]

Some advice for the players, aimed to be achievable by expending resources rather than needing some combination of levels or specialist class abilities.

First off, Limited Wish to break Scry restrictions is a great suggestion.

Dimensional Lock allows Spell Resistance, so that could be a possible way to circumvent it. The best way I can think of to utilise this (given advanced knowledge that you're going to be attacking somewhere so warded) is the Cleric spell Greater Spell Immunity, cast multiple times.

Disjunction is potent, but as a less-nuclear option: Chained Greater Dispel Magic, either via the actual metamagic feat or a rod (even better, the actual metamagic feat a rod of Quicken Spell), can be pretty brutal. A full attempt to dispel all the dragon's buffs, plus an attempt to suppress each of the dragon's magic items for 1d4 rounds - not to mention, item caster levels can often be rather low.

Given the party's level, multiple castings of Energy Immunity (rod of Reach Spell combined with aforementioned rod of Chain Spell and/or a few Pearls of Power, if slots are an issue) should protect against damaging breath weapon attacks. Dispelling breath is still rough.

(Quickened) Dimensional Anchor or Dimensional Lock will also be necessary. To get the initial salvo of debuffs off, maybe look at Moment of Presience/Nerveskitter (rod of Chain Spell for the party! Better if the "off"-arcane caster does this though, so the Dispeller/DimLocker can keep his/her swift action)/Dire Tortoise form/Alter Fortune(for initiative, both the dragon's and the players'). Foresight (Wiz 9) is key, also. If you can win initiative, Belt of Battle and/or Celerity (with Third Eye Clarity (MIC)) for extra actions.

As mentioned before with Shivering Touch, this is all (particularly Celerity - Third Eye Clarity - Belt of Battle - Time Stop action novas) subject to DM assessment.

EDIT: Forgot there was a paladin in the party: if available, one use of the rod of Chain Spell should be reserved (with a rod of Extend Spell, if possible) for Favor of the Martyr - sick buff, particularly given a) Celerity use and/or b) their knowledge of Stunning Breath use.

What can I say? I'm partial to metamagic rods. And Chain Spell. :smallbiggrin:

My 2c, hope some of it helps! :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Don Duckie - that is HILARIOUS! Unfortunately the Paladin wouldn't stand for it. I would give my players some MAD experience for something like that. (and move their alignments toward evil and unless they were very circumspect they would get a couple Paladin enemies to boot)

...What. You're taking supplies from this big bad guy to weaken him and give yourself some nice toys, or using tactics that give you a fighting chance. That is in no way evil, and in this case is smart tactics more than greed.

[Demon of Death]

...What. You're taking supplies from this big bad guy to weaken him and give yourself some nice toys, or using tactics that give you a fighting chance. That is in no way evil, and in this case is smart tactics more than greed.

I think the 100 Commoner families would be inclined to say that the party is quite evil, as they got them killed, and not in a tactical way.

[Reltzik]

Not having read other responses....


This was a good encounter. BBEGs should be rightly feared. If the PCs bring them down in one encounter, you fail as a DM. Consider how many times Luke fought Vader, and ask whether he'd have been such a good villain if he'd died in a PC rage-rush immediately after killing Obi Wan.

... er, retroactive spoiler-alert.

That said, the PCs now have a couple of advantages they didn't before. They're wise to some of the dragon's tricks, the teleport spheres and the lightning breath and that nasty spell. DON'T expect to win again with the same strategy. (Then again, the dragon's probably smart enough not to expect that either. Mwahahaha.)

Expect the PCs to come up with a few more advantages. Maybe they pick up some foe-specific weaponry (bane?). Maybe they tailor their spell selections and buffs. Maybe they hatch a plot to lure the dragon out of his hidey hole to terrain that favors them more. Maybe they track down someone who knows something about the dragon to learn about a weak point. Don't discourage this! Make some of these adventures in their own right. Drop a few hooks and see if they bite. Meanwhile, level the dragon for its successful encounter so that he's still on par with them come the rematch.

Finally, the dragon just had its turf invaded by uppity two-legs dumb enough to think they could kill it. How would the typical dragon respond? Think this first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html), only bigger and with a breath weapon.

I'd say draw out the campaign for a few more levels. Have the PCs retrieve dragon-killing weaponry, find anti-dragon magic, learn about this dragon's weaknesses, etc. Meanwhile, have them constantly hounded by the agents of a very angry dragon... and have the dragon itself show from time to time.

[WebTiefling]

Ahhh, the smell of burning corpses in the air! We had a session last night and plans progressed nicely. Quite a few suggestions I got here have been introduced.

They first acquired Mind Blank equipment, then continued reaching out to a neighboring dragon who has been a competitor to the BBEG. They took the option of having a retired dragon hunter just as an adviser (this caught me by surprise) and the competitor dragon's support in finding items for their assault. He has also provided them with the use of his scrying pool which (DM fiat) mimics the Limited Wish + Scrying 3/day. (they could have gotten more from him, but that's all they asked for)

Ancient Mage, the Limited Wish + Scry was a hit, and the Xorn movement was acclaimed as brilliant. They drooled over Avasculate, but realize SR could be a B*** to get past if the dragon is at all prepped.

It had been five days since the BBEG had tried to fry them in their sleep, and they were feeling like they were almost ready for their assault except for some of the longer preparation items.

The dragon went after their fortress.

When BBEG couldn't track them down due to Mind Blank, he decided to draw them out. He views them as very threats to his plans, but not to his life. He sent in his Greater Stone Golem to trash their fortress. (they fell for this so totally hook, line and sinker that I'm embarrassed for them)

Along with the Golem, the dragon had sent an assassination team for when the adventurers replied to the fortresses alarms going off: four lvl 16 archer-rogue-assassins and a guy whose only job was to stay hidden/safe while casting Mud to Stone on the Golem as well as keeping it buffed (Greater Mage Armor, Blink) and protected (positioned Walls of Force).

One PC (Summoner) got taken down by the assassination team early on (three DC 20 Fort poisoned arrows), and the second wizard got taken out the same way at the very end by a rolled 20 by the assassin and a failed Fort sv, the Paladin got his ass handed to him by the Golem That Would Not Die, the Monk did very well, and the Rogue kicked ass going after the assassins and supporting wizard.

The fortress wasn't too badly hurt, one of the dragon's protectors is now destroyed, three of the assassins wound up dead, and both wizards dinged up to level 19. They also got a quick sketch of some of the dragon's traps from one of the assassin corpses - they had done work for BBEG before, and it looks like one of them was taking notes on the parts of the dragon's fortress he had seen.

They are almost ready for their assault. The dragon can't focus all his attention on them, and with the losses he has taken on them so far, they have a respite. They're continuing to scry the place, and have it quite well mapped out. I told them that if they don't have any other major preparations they want to take, they will be ready for the main assault next session. (Friday)

They're planning on the fake frontal assault followed by the real Xorn movement assault, using a barrage of Avasculates. They're going to summon an Ethereal and a Shadow creature to track down the dragon in his fortress and let them know. (Ethereal will fail because one of the dragon's guards is Ethereal, but the Shadow can get through)

[Ancient Mage]

SR is no problem. If any of them are getting a feat soon, take spell penetration obviously. But there is a better solution.
In Spell Compendium there is a spell called Assay Spell Resistance. It gives you +10 on SR checks against one creature of your choice. Plus, it's also a swift action to cast, so you can fire off avasculate in the same round as Assay SR. And, its a 4th level spell. Assuming your dragon has an SR of 30+ with the boosts and/or magic items you may have given it, any wizard of roughly 19th level will now have +29 on SR against your dragon. More if they can find other ways to boost it.

-Ancient Mage

"Nature will find a way"-Ian Malcolm

[WebTiefling]

Ah, Ancient Mage, you are indeed a master of all things magical. I've got the SC, but none of the players have it. That will be another hint dropped by their dragon hunter adviser.

That's SWEET!!!

The Evoker does have Spell Penetration. The dragon has 35 SR with equip and a Feat. I think the Evoker said his overall bonus to overcome SR was 23, though I'm not sure how he got there. Maybe a Feat or item I've forgotten. But, regardless, with Assay SR he's got at least +31 and maybe even +33 to overcome the dragons SR.

[Mando Knight]

Mando Knight, I think he's a bit too big for a Forcecage to work. That would be nice, though.

I meant for the dragon to use to prevent others from teleporting in and out of his lair willy-nilly. Forcecage and Dimensional Lock traps shut them up into a nice little place where the dragon can deal with them at its leisure.

[Clawhound]

This is where I'm at, and I've painted myself into a corner, so to speak. The BBEG, as it has developed, is a Very Old Red Dragon. He is nearly eight hundred years old, total net worth in nearing ten million (and equipment to match).


You need to recalculate CR. The CR is for dragons as listed. Once you add in all your deviousness, its favorable lair, and its equipment, the CR gets bumped a few more notches.

Your players need to think laterally. Plug up the dragon's lair, divert a river, and flood its cavern. Or flood the cavern with acid. Steal its gold with earth elementals. OK, those might not work right here, but you can see what I'm doing. They need to match your lateral thinking with their own lateral thinking. After some good brainstorming, they will come up with some wicked ideas.

The real trick is that they can't roll the dice to win. They actually have to think this out and make a plan.

[WebTiefling]

Clawhound - yeah, I realized that a bit late. Originally he wasn't intended to be the BBEG, but instead, just one of several mostly behind the scenes movers and shakers.

For the most part dragons weren't intended as adventurer-fodder in the world I've been using for the last several years. At the lower ages, say up to Adult, sure. But much beyond that, the ones who have survived have been able to collect sufficient power that they aren't typically bothered by adventuring groups. They are the big powers in the world (along with a few other non-draconic organizations) and I tend to use them as the big shadowy plot drivers, rather than direct antagonists.

And now I'm running an almost-20th level campaign and some of those big shadowy dragon forces are now potential direct foes. It has caught me a bit by surprise, and the players too. If I had to guess, I would put his CR somewhere around 25 or 26.

[WebTiefling]

Well, that went off the rails! Proof of the adage that the battle plan never survives contact with the enemy, or sometimes even with yourselves.

The frontal assault proved very effective. Too effective. It was intended to be a distraction - a bunch of summoned creatures (scrolls to save spells) would attack the front complete with illusions of themselves waiting for the summoned creatures to clear the way. The real attack would be the loaded-for-dragon PCs sneaking in with Xorn movement with a Shadow Plane summoned scout to track down the dragon for them to attack by surprise.

The summoned creatures made mincemeat of the defenders. (I summarized their combat with a few rolls for each side. The BBEG defenders had a slight edge at the beginning: +5 to their rolls for the first round. BBEG defenders first roll: 1. Summoned attackers first roll: 20. Defenders second roll: 1. Attackers second roll: 18.) So, the PC's summoned creatures wiped out the defenders and proceeded into the main fortress. The dragon went forward to make short work of the summoned creatures himself, prepping for the PCs which he assumed would be following on their heels. The shadow beast did indeed spot the dragon inside the fortress and conveyed the info to the players. So far the plan is working wonderfully!

Here's where it went hinky.

The PCs had the bright idea that instead of killing the dragon, they would rob the dragon. They estimated the dragon would be tied up for at least a minute. They were under the room outside the treasure room. They knew it was walled in by walls of force, but they figured they could get in (Dispel Magic). The treasure room was Dim Locked, they knew, but they figured they could destroy the item in the room that kept up the Dim Lock and then teleport out with mega-loads of money and never have to bother with the dragon again - relocate to a nice island on the other side of the world, etc.

So, they popped up through the floor in the room outside the treasure vault. They knew there were traps in that room, and they knew what the traps were, and how they were triggered. They totally forgot about them, though.

Boom! Maximized Fireball, Maximized Chain Lightning, poison gas filled the room, 50 Magic Missiles, two Elder Earth Elementals summoned. Fortunately they all were immune to both fire and lightning, and the poison saves were all passed. The magic missiles messed them up, though. And the dragon was alerted.

They estimated they had about 30 seconds to a minute before the dragon made it from the entrance back to the treasure room.

They disposed of the two elementals in two rounds (and Wind Gusted out the poison). Dispeled the vault wall (along with the illusion masking it) in one round. Spent another two rounds blasting through the iron and stone walls/doors they hadn't realized were also part of the vault walls. Two rounds to get rid of the Elder Fire Elemental that continually patrolled the inside of the vault.

No time for treasure! Dragon's coming! Summon creatures! Buff! Hide!

The BBEG sent in an illusion of himself first. Yeah, they had See Invisibility running, but not True Seeing (and yes I did give them rolls to notice something, but they failed them miserably, nobody rolled higher than an 8). There went the first round of prepped spells. As he came in he tossed off a quickened Dispel Magic, and a Wall of Force. There went a bunch of PC buffs. Greater Dispel Magic got cast back at him, only removing the Force Wall and his head and neck based items . Combat was entered. The dragon's Force Wall divided forces for a while (out of Dispel Magic). It turned into a nasty brawl.

I won't bother with the details. Final count - one dead dragon, two wizards below 0 HP, one dead Rogue, the Paladin was down to twenty-something HP, and his cohort was down to 40 something.

Awesomely successful session.

Many thanks to all for the excellent suggestions!