The summoner

[Kaeso]

"Or I could just summon a bunch of angels?"

I'm asking the playground for help with a build I want to make, mostly inspired by Redcloaks awesomeness in the two most recent comics. I've always had a soft spot for the green bugger, and now he's proving his worth :smallbiggrin:.

Anyway, my build will be just that, a summoner. I'd prefer it to be quite good at summoning, preferably demons and.... that's it. If possible I'd rather not have it be a game breaking tier 1 class but if that's the only possibility I'll learn to deal with it. Oh, and if said build could summon a few other things/objects out of thin air (I always liked the image of a guy pulling a sword out of thin air:smallamused:) then that's icing on the cake.

[Venusaur]

The absolute best summoner is the planar shepherd, a druid prc. However, it is really really cheesy. Other good summon focused prcs are the thaumatugist and the malcanvoker, from the srd and complete divine (?). The Malcanvoker focuses on tricking evil summons to do good.

[Kaeso]

Thanks for the suggestions, but are there any non tier 1 classes capable of being decent summoners? All of those ideas, though good, will often scream "CAMPAIGN BREAKER" to any DM with solid 3.5e knowledge.

[tyckspoon]

Most of the summon-based prestige classes require Summon Monster, which means you pretty much have to use a tier 1 class to qualify. On the plus side for 'trying not to break the game', Summon Monster is probably the weakest form of summon focus; it's very versatile, but because the things it summons tend to be fairly low CR compared to the things you want them to handle it's typically not overpowering. (Making heavy use of Planar Ally/Planar Binding, on the other hand, has potential for more problems, from the infamous efreeti-binding Wish loops to the simple and straightforward recruitment of a few bruiser-type demons to be your goon squad.)

Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) is the standard route for summoners, especially if you're wanting to specialize in demons/devils/fiendish beings. Its signature ability is to get one extra creature when you use Summon Monster, which is pretty nifty when you're using your highest level SM spell and would normally only get a single creature.

Thaumaturgist is alright, although it's mostly focused on using the Planar Ally line of spells. The most notable thing there is its capstone, which lets you use Planar Ally to call an outsider to serve as a Cohort.

If you want to be weird, you could try Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East.) You start out as a normal wizard/sorcerer/cleric/whatever, and then.. instead of being a "+1 existing" class like most caster prestiges, Demonbinder gives you an entirely new casting progression. It starts at 4th level and works like a Sorcerer, with limited Spells Known, only they're all selected from a very restricted list that is basically all summoning/calling spells + 1 or 2 others each level.

[jiriku]

Thanks for the suggestions, but are there any non tier 1 classes capable of being decent summoners?

In the 3.5 ruleset? You could play a sorcerer or favored soul for a Tier 2 summoner. Still pretty strong.

In my sig? My homebrew summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181483) is a Tier 3 class.

[sreservoir]

sorcerer? arguably spirit shaman? (spirit shaman is variably between 1 and 3, depending who you ask.)

but no, having a large summoning list alone has a tendency to push you up to tier 2.

[tyckspoon]

You could also look into psionics; Astral Constructs compare favorably with Summon Monster as combat pets, and you should be able to make them look like whatever the heck you want. The psionic Creation powers are easier to use than the similar spells, IIRC, and Call Weapon is explicitly a power for making a weapon out of thin air.

[Kaeso]

Is it really wise to try the summoning route with tier 2 casters? While they're certainly a downgrade from the broken tier 1 (which is good), they're quite gimped by the fact that summoning a monster takes a full round, and drains their spells known quite a bit.

If we go back to tier 1 for a small detour, would a cleric (cloistered or otherwise) be better than a wizard at summoning or not?

[sreservoir]

Is it really wise to try the summoning route with tier 2 casters? While they're certainly a downgrade from the broken tier 1 (which is good), they're quite gimped by the fact that summoning a monster takes a full round, and drains their spells known quite a bit.

If we go back to tier 1 for a small detour, would a cleric (cloistered or otherwise) be better than a wizard at summoning or not?

summon spells have such versatility that you probably won't need many other spells if you're focusing on them, though.

you do get enough spells known if you're not doing all the utility casting.

wizards and druids do get most of the goodies for summoning, though.

[Kaeso]

summon spells have such versatility that you probably won't need many other spells if you're focusing on them, though.

you do get enough spells known if you're not doing all the utility casting.

wizards and druids do get most of the goodies for summoning, though.

Very well. The full round casting without any way to get around it does bother me, but despite that I believe that a sorcerer could be a good summoner. What feats would this sorceror need? And should he take the summoning spells as soon as possible (ie. already take the first summon monster spell directly at first level) or save them for later on?

[jiriku]

Is it really wise to try the summoning route with tier 2 casters? While they're certainly a downgrade from the broken tier 1 (which is good), they're quite gimped by the fact that summoning a monster takes a full round, and drains their spells known quite a bit.

If we go back to tier 1 for a small detour, would a cleric (cloistered or otherwise) be better than a wizard at summoning or not?

Well, the whole point of choosing a non-tier 1 summoner is to be less powerful than a tier 1 summoner. Fewer spells known and less adroit summoning is the means of achieving your goal of being less powerful. You could always take the Rapid Metamagic feat, or whatever it's called, to cast your summoning spells as a standard action with a +1 spell level adjustment. And for sorcerers in particular, there are many ways to gain additional spells known for a reasonable cost.

Looking at the cloistered cleric, all Tier 1 classes are more or less equally good at summoning. The difference between one T1 or another is teensy compared to the difference between the T1s as a group and any/everyone else as a group.

Edit: Summon Monster III is where summoning starts to get decent. SM I/II could be considered optional. Obviously you want Augment Summoning, and I'm rather partial to Rapid Metamagic. Don't underestimate the power of using RM with a belt of battle and a celerity spell to drop three summons on the first round of combat.

[Urpriest]

If you want a Tier 2 summoner that doesn't need to give up much versatility to keep up their summoning, a Binder with access to Zceryll, an online vestige, will qualify, though only at a level high enough for said vestige obviously.

You won't find a summoner below Tier 2 because summoning is an iconically Tier 2 feature.

[sreservoir]

well, summoning can exist below tier 2. it will just need to be fixed-list; a tier >2 summoning spell would need to be to SM/SNA as, say, beguiler/DN/warmage to the T1/T2 caster.

[Venusaur]

Pathfinder has a class called the summoner, which gives you an eidiolon that you build to fight, and some spells to buff it.

[Randomguy]

Don't bards get summoning spells? You could be a summoning focused bard going into Nar Demonbinder. (And maybe malconvoker after that). You'd probably be low tier 3 because of the lack of synergy, though.

Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman and favoured soul also work.

Augment summoning and spell focus (conjuration) are the bread and butter of being a summoner.

Imbued summoning, from phb2, seems decent: you can cast a buff spell of 3rd level or lower with a range of touch on a summoned creature as you summon them, so it's kind of like a more limited version of quicken spell with less metamagic cost.

[Lateral]

Seconding psion. You certainly won't be a traditional summoner, but as a Psion 11/Constructor 9 you can be summoning some kick-ass constructs with a pretty damn good number of abilities. Don't bother to take the tenth level, it's not worth the lost ML; there's a Shaper ACF that gives you pretty much the exact same thing for your 5th level bonus feat. (It only allows you to make a 'favored construct,' which always has to be the same, but realistically there's gonna be one combat form you'll be using most of the time. Getting it quickened for free is huge, especially since it's normally a 1-round casting time.) The other nice part is that it's one power rather than nine, leaving you lots of room for other powers that you can be using on your standard actions while using your moves to regain focus (with Psionic Meditation) and your swifts to manifest Astral Constructs. Have it select one of the Fly menu abilities if you want it to be an angel.

[Gavinfoxx]

In the 3.5 ruleset? You could play a sorcerer or favored soul for a Tier 2 summoner. Still pretty strong.

In my sig? My homebrew summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181483) is a Tier 3 class.

I love that summoner, it's so awesome... but how come it doesn't have an option for that mirror mephit spell?

[Eisenfavl]

I've got to say Malconvoker.
And the best part? If you do it right you can avoid being too game breaking while remaining very powerful.
How? Go focused specialised conjurer, Malconvoker, maybe dip into master specialist to help qualify, but as soon as you can go for archmage and swap out all your high level slots for summon monster SLA's.
It severely cuts off your ability to break the game, while giving you even more summoning.
Treantmonk's Malconvoker guide is a fairly good start. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker)

[Slipperychicken]

full round casting without any way to get around

There's an ACF for that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) Brings the casting time down to a standard. It is a Wizard variant, but Conjurers summon pretty much anything you could ask for.

From PF comes the Summoner, which gets a lot of Summon Monster X (class feature, used for Gate too when that time comes) per day, casts sort of like a sorcerer, only up to 6th level spells.

[Cieyrin]

Spirit Shaman summoners have the best of both worlds when it comes to prepared vs. spontaneous casting, since they can just have the highest summon available in their highest slot and leave the rest of their slots open for whatever. Alternatively, Spontaneous Summoner works well enough to act as free spells known. As well, Player's Guide to Eberron cleared up that SS can take the druid sect feats, so you can take Ashbound or any of the other druid summoning buffs.

[Ancient Mage]

Ironic that we discard Tier 1 classes, so that we won't break a campaign, and then figure out how to make a Tier 2 class into a power-house. Ah, what we must do to escape the wrath of the DM.
Anyway, the Sorcerer makes decent summoner if all you're looking to do is summon. Pick up Augment Summoning, cast haste on your minions, buff them up with spells like mass enlarge or mass bull's strength, and then let them slay the opposition. Look in spell compendium for spells that summon only one creature, because that creature is usually fairly powerful. Summon Elemental Monolith will cause a DM to throw books at you though. (17th level druid kills 27th level monk by using Summon Monolith 3 times, result: Druid kills monk, DM very surprised)

-Ancient Mage

[Greenish]

Spirit Shaman summoners have the best of both worlds when it comes to prepared vs. spontaneous casting, since they can just have the highest summon available in their highest slot and leave the rest of their slots open for whatever. Alternatively, Spontaneous Summoner works well enough to act as free spells known. As well, Player's Guide to Eberron cleared up that SS can take the druid sect feats, so you can take Ashbound or any of the other druid summoning buffs.Woot, spirit shaman! For some unknown reason, I seriously love that class. :smallcool:


Summon Elemental Monolith will cause a DM to throw books at you though. (17th level druid kills 27th level monk by using Summon Monolith 3 times, result: Druid kills monk, DM very surprised)If my memory serves, Summon Elemental Monolith requires concentration.

No problem for a spirit shaman, though, your spirit companion can concentrate for you. :smalltongue:

[Ancient Mage]

You're right, Summon Elemental Monolith does require concentration. I've only used that spell once, which is why I didn't remember that fact. The DM wrapped the campaign up after the last battle, which was when I was powerful enough to use it.

-Ancient Mage

[Fayd]

If you're up for it, don't forget that Pathfinder actually has a "Summoner" class; by default it's decent at calling up hordes of allies, but one of the variants, Master Summoner, is all about flooding the field.

[Swooper]

Augment summoning and spell focus (conjuration) are the bread and butter of being a summoner.
Only because it's a prerequisite of Augment Summoning. Summoning spells don't actually benefit from it at all. What you want is Imbue Summoning (CArc I believe).

I'll also second looking at the PF Summoner class (shouldn't be hard to convert to 3.5), though it has the wonky limitation of only being able to have either his eidolon or summoned monsters out at any time.

[Novawurmson]

Only because it's a prerequisite of Augment Summoning. Summoning spells don't actually benefit from it at all. What you want is Imbue Summoning (CArc I believe).

I'll also second looking at the PF Summoner class (shouldn't be hard to convert to 3.5), though it has the wonky limitation of only being able to have either his eidolon or summoned monsters out at any time.

There's an Archetype for that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/master-summoner).

[Cieyrin]

Woot, spirit shaman! For some unknown reason, I seriously love that class. :smallcool:

If my memory serves, Summon Elemental Monolith requires concentration.

No problem for a spirit shaman, though, your spirit companion can concentrate for you. :smalltongue:

Indeed, it's one of the coolest and most unique core classes released as part of the Complete series, yet it doesn't get a lot of fanfare in comparison to Scout and Warlock. I just wish there were PrCs that continued advancing Censure Spirits. :smallannoyed:

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh! I confused that summoner with a different one...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5207270&postcount=3
vs
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181483

Are both of those Tier 3? What do you all think? Which is more powerful? More interesting? Which would you all want to play??

[sreservoir]

Oh! I confused that summoner with a different one...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5207270&postcount=3
vs
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181483

Are both of those Tier 3? What do you all think? Which is more powerful? More interesting? Which would you all want to play??

I see summon monster on both. one of them has SNA.

that is pretty much instant tier 2.

[Gavinfoxx]

They both have SNA, actually; one gets it from a feat.

[Lateral]

Plus, SNA isn't that great. It doesn't offer SLAs, and it's only better at lower levels when all they are are meat shields anyway.

[sreservoir]

Plus, SNA isn't that great. It doesn't offer SLAs, and it's only better at lower levels when all they are are meat shields anyway.

they start to really suck at higher levels, yes, but you do get djinni with marvelous SLAs, janni with mediocre SLAs, and unicorns with usable, if not great, healing.

really, though, it's SM which is ludicrous and pushes them up to T2. SNA is just icing.

[Kaeso]

There's some very good advice in here guys, both for very strong summoners (T1) and some weaker versions (that won't give any sane DM a seizure). I have one more question:

Some of you suggested a sorcerer focused on summoning as a weaker version, since it's limited in its spells known and can't accelerate its summoning. I do wonder if taking the battle sorcerer variant combined with a summoning focus is either a decent T3 or a complete waste of potential. As far as I can see (and I'm no expert) it means that it has better survivability in exchange for one spell known/level. What do you guys think about this: battle sorc summoner or normal sorc summoner? And are there any feat suggestions beyond Imbued summoning, Augment summoning and spell focus (conjuration), or are those three the only ones I need and can I cherrypick any other feats purely for other purposes?

EDIT:
Another thing which is vaguely related to the rest of the thread, but in a way completely unrelated, is this: whenever I play an arcane spell caster, I always find it difficult to give them a reason to adventure. Clerics, Paladin and Holy Warriors are always devoted to their god(s) or to an ideal, so adventuring is basically in their contract. Bards and rogues are usually adventurous by their very nature, but what about arcane casters (and druids, to a certain extent)? One would imagine they're too busy mastering their arcane power and pushing it to the very limits rather than adventuring and getting themselves within the range of goblins with pointy sticks. IMHO the only spellcaster that would ever consider adventuring is the evil kind that wants to take over the world.

[Urpriest]

The only in-game way to master the arcane is to adventure. You don't gain new spell levels by sitting around doing experiments. Well NPCs might, but you don't.

In a less metagame sense, it's as much in your nature to adventure as the bard or rogue's. The bard or rogue adventures because they want things, often material things but occasionally social outcomes. Why should a wizard have any different motivation.

[Kaeso]

I guess that does make sense.

All right, one last question and you're rid of this thread forever :smallbiggrin:
This is mostly a flavour thing, but are there any spells on the wiz/sorc list that allow the caster to summon a weapon he/she is proficient with out of thin air? I know the cleric has the "ice axe" spell, which gives him an ice axe that he's automatically proficient with, but I'd like to know if there's a sorc/wiz equivalent of this spell.

[tyckspoon]

Flame Dagger and Thunderlance, both in the Spell Compendium. Scimitar of Sand, in Sandstorm. The various 'summon a weapon-like construct to attack for you' spells. Blade of Pain and Fear, I think also Spell Compendium.

(Flame Dagger and Scimitar of Sand make touch attacks. Thunderlance is a pretty awesome weapon, but since it makes normal attacks it's better suited for gish builds with better BAB. Lets you use your casting stat instead of your Str mod to attack, tho.)

[Kaeso]

Flame Dagger and Thunderlance, both in the Spell Compendium. Scimitar of Sand, in Sandstorm. The various 'summon a weapon-like construct to attack for you' spells. Blade of Pain and Fear, I think also Spell Compendium.

(Flame Dagger and Scimitar of Sand make touch attacks. Thunderlance is a pretty awesome weapon, but since it makes normal attacks it's better suited for gish builds with better BAB. Lets you use your casting stat instead of your Str mod to attack, tho.)

Is a gish build unifiable with a summoner build? Both are quite PrC intensive, but I wonder if somebody ever tried to combine the two.

[sreservoir]

Is a gish build unifiable with a summoner build? Both are quite PrC intensive, but I wonder if somebody ever tried to combine the two.

you probably could, but you'd think the desire to smash things would be fulfilled by the summons.

[FMArthur]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Ardent. It's a solidly tier 3 class that can use the Creation Mantle to focus itself on summoning about as well as a psion can (it lacks the Shaper ACF, but gets a free psionic summoning feat and its own Dominant Ideal ACF, which reduces augmentation cost by 2 and prevents expenditure of psionic focus on metapsionics).

It also gets Call Weaponry in the Justice Mantle (which has a good ally-supporting granted power) and has medium BAB to smack things around - it's a good melee class and is used as such in most builds, but it can blast or summon astral constructs at full power if you make it that way. The point is that you can call in your buddy and wade straight into the fray alongside him, if that's where you're going with this.

Additionally, Ardent is one of the few melee classes capable of actually protecting its allies FYI. Only crusaders, ardents and knights can do that among melee base classes - you can get crusader's maneuvers without being a crusader or by taking a dip, and knights just plain suck. So ardent rocks face in guardian builds and you have plenty of things to do after you've called out your customized pet.

[Kaeso]

you probably could, but you'd think the desire to smash things would be fulfilled by the summons.

*FACEDESK* of course, how stupid of me :smallannoyed:
Well, I guess that concludes all of my summoner related questions. I'd like to thank every single on of you for your input :smallbiggrin:

[sreservoir]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Ardent. It's a solidly tier 3 class that can use the Creation Mantle to focus itself on summoning about as well as a psion can (it lacks the Shaper ACF, but gets a free psionic summoning feat and its own Dominant Ideal ACF, which reduces augmentation cost by 2 and prevents expenditure of psionic focus on metapsionics).

It also gets Call Weaponry in the Justice Mantle (which has a good ally-supporting granted power) and has medium BAB to smack things around - it's a good melee class and is used as such in most builds, but it can blast or summon astral constructs at full power if you make it that way. The point is that you can call in your buddy and wade straight into the fray alongside him, if that's where you're going with this.

Additionally, Ardent is one of the few melee classes capable of actually protecting its allies FYI. Only crusaders ardents and knights can do that among melee base classes - you can get crusader's maneuvers without being a crusader or by taking a dip, and knights just plain suck. So ardent rocks face in guardian builds and you have plenty of things to do after you've called out your customized pet.

ardent is more of a melee class than cleric or druid?

[Urpriest]

ardent is more of a melee class than cleric or druid?

BFC=/=Protecting your allies. Not directly anyway, which was the subject of that quote. Though I suppose Shield Other counts a little.

[FMArthur]

Yeah I meant in a 'stand in front and force the enemy not to hurt your allies' way instead of just compelling them to stop on account of impassable magical barriers or just healing them afterward or something. They have a bunch of nice tools for preventing and mitigating harm which don't feel any more magical than a crusader's abilities. Those powers and granted powers are almost like martial maneuvers.

[Kaeso]

After taking all of your tips into account, I've made a "draft" version of a summon sorcerer, up to level 10 (entering malconvocker ASAP, which means level 6 or 7). Here are the statistics:

Feats

Level 1: Prococious Apprentice (scorching ray)*
Level 1: Fiery burst*
Level 3: Spell focus (conjuration)
Level 6: Augment summoning
Level 9: Imbued summoning*

* = I'm not sure

The logic behind this: the first two feats are to guarantee my sorcerer can do something when his monsters are summoned without wasting precious spell slots, while being more effective than just plinking around with his crossbow

Spells

1&2:
First level:
Sleep*
Mage armor
-
3:
First level
Sleep*
Mage armor
Magic Missle
-
4:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
-
Second level
Summon monster II
5:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
-
Second level
Summon monster II
False life
6:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
-
Second level
Summon monster II
False life
Third level
Summon monster III
7:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
–
-
Second level
Summon monster II
False life
Glitterdust
Third level
Summon monster III
Blade of pain and fear (SpC)
8:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
–
-
Second level
Summon monster II
False life
Glitterdust
Third level
Summon monster III
Blade of pain and fear (SpC)
Fourth level
Summon monster IV
9:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
-
-
Second level
Summon monster II
False life
Glitterdust
Protection from arrows
Third level
Summon monster III
Blade of pain and fear (SpC)
Displacement
Fourth level
Summon monster IV
Black tentacles
10:
First level
Grease
Mage armor
Magic missle
Ray of Enfeeblement
–
-
Second level
Summon monster II
False life
Glitterdust
Protection from arrows
Third level
Summon monster III
Blade of pain and fear (SpC)
Displacement
Fourth level
Summon monster IV
Black tentacles
Fifth level
Summon monster V

* = is exchanged for a different spell at level 4, as per the rules
- = I'm not sure what spell to put in this empty spell known slot

What are your opinions on this build so far?