Forgotten Realms?

[sonofzeal]

I've played Eberron extensively, but I've never been exposed to FR. I know it's pretty "high heroic fantasy" on the surface and pretty "grimdark" underneath. I know there's hundreds of high level casters and dozens of epic ones. I know a couple of the myths. But that still doesn't tell me all that much. And I'm joining a game soon.

For campaign spoiler reasons I'd ask you not to go into too much detail on "current" politics beyond what a layperson in the setting might know, but what is FR like, as a setting? Why do you, personally, like or dislike it? Is there anything equivalent to the "1001+ Things That The Worst Party In Eberron Is Not Allowed To Do"?

[gkathellar]

It's mostly a lot of generic fantasy counterpart cultures, but they're all pretty well-detailed and thought out so it works. The most commonly used parts of the setting, the Sword Coast and the Dalelands, are honestly pretty mundane high fantasy in a lot of ways, because all those high-level casters mostly keep each other in check.

One thing, though? FR is huge. I don't know that it's geographically bigger than Eberron, but in terms of the amount of detail given to every aspect of the setting ... yeah, FR is huge.

EDIT: Dunno how I forgot this. Gods are really important in FR. They're very powerful, have their hands in just about everything, and most importantly if you don't worship a god you get screwed in the afterlife. So religion is a pretty big deal.

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, I heard about how hugely huge it is. Apparently there's floorplans of the entire city of Waterdeep, dozens of pre-statted shopkeepers, even marked sewer entrances. Coming from Eberron, that was a bit of a shock!

[Metahuman1]

Depends on the group. Right game theme and player/DM mindsets can make the setting really come alive and be just all caps awesome. Get the wrong one's in there though, it's gonna be a nightmare.

Tip: Be cautious about who you piss off. It can bite you badly in the butt, sometimes faster then others.

[gkathellar]

Tip: Be cautious about who you piss off. It can bite you badly in the butt, sometimes faster then others.

And that doesn't mean, "Don't piss of Elminster." It means, "Don't piss off anyone, because high-level former adventurers are everywhere."

[onemorelurker]

And that doesn't mean, "Don't piss of Elminster." It means, "Don't piss off anyone, because high-level former adventurers are everywhere."

This is the thing that turns me off FR, in general: all of these high-level NPCs and gods have metaplots going on that PCs are rarely able to participate in. In that way, it's a pretty realistic setting (since things happen in it regardless of the PCs), but there's not necessarily room for the PCs to become movers and shakers of the world.

[Metahuman1]

This is the thing that turns me off FR, in general: all of these high-level NPCs and gods have metaplots going on that PCs are rarely able to participate in. In that way, it's a pretty realistic setting (since things happen in it regardless of the PCs), but there's not necessarily room for the PCs to become movers and shakers of the world.

Actually, when they get to high enough level, there is plenty of room for that. It's just a bloody matter of GETTING to high enough level. Also, yeah, sometimes that means Epic level depending on which NPC(s) you want to shake things up for.


It can so totally be worth it though. This is kinda what I was talking about in my first post.

[Urpriest]

As someone who is a tad synesthetic, Forgotten Realms is a setting sketched in pastels, especially purple and pink. The setting has always seemed a little campy, a place where people tend to wear costumes evocative of the fantasy of the 80's. It's high magic, but in a different way than Eberron: magic isn't technology, it's art, and those that pursue it are idiosyncratic, passionate, and whimsical. Whimsy in general is a major feature of the setting: when your classic knights in shining armor are called Purple Dragon Knights you know that someone had a sense of humor, and many monsters conform to this sort of style as well. There are major lunar themes, not just Selune and Shar but also Elistraee, Mielekki, Malar...if Eberron is best envisioned on a dreary night in Sharn, think of Forgotten Realms as twilight under a full moon in a forest grove, a gathering of mysterious figures in pastel robes going about some ecstatic ritual.

[sonofzeal]

As someone who is a tad synesthetic, Forgotten Realms is a setting sketched in pastels, especially purple and pink. The setting has always seemed a little campy, a place where people tend to wear costumes evocative of the fantasy of the 80's. It's high magic, but in a different way than Eberron: magic isn't technology, it's art, and those that pursue it are idiosyncratic, passionate, and whimsical. Whimsy in general is a major feature of the setting: when your classic knights in shining armor are called Purple Dragon Knights you know that someone had a sense of humor, and many monsters conform to this sort of style as well. There are major lunar themes, not just Selune and Shar but also Elistraee, Mielekki, Malar...if Eberron is best envisioned on a dreary night in Sharn, think of Forgotten Realms as twilight under a full moon in a forest grove, a gathering of mysterious figures in pastel robes going about some ecstatic ritual.
Thank you Urpriest, that was singularly evocative!

I've also heard many darker things about the setting though - that the gods are generally terrible people, especially the farther up the totem pole they are, and that the cosmology (the Wall of the Faithless in particular) is pretty Grimdark under the pastels. Is there much truth to this?

[Urpriest]

Thank you Urpriest, that was singularly evocative!

I've also heard many darker things about the setting though - that the gods are generally terrible people, especially the farther up the totem pole they are, and that the cosmology (the Wall of the Faithless in particular) is pretty Grimdark under the pastels. Is there much truth to this?

It's not Grimdark like 40k, it's Grimdark like fairy tales. Not Grimm's fairy tales, but regular fairy tales. Basically, lots of things in the setting have unfortunate implications if you think them through, but you're not really supposed to think them through. Nobody in the setting is depressed about the Wall of the Faithless, it's just how those people are supposed to be treated. You won't end up on the Wall of the Faithless because you're dedicated to a god, so why worry about those people? While the gods are kind of jerks, this is true of the Greek gods, and they're still thought of as suitable for children's stories.

[gkathellar]

the gods are generally terrible people, especially the farther up the totem pole they are,

Basically, yeah. But it's not strictly by intention ... often more of a Burning Hate situation, where the writers didn't necessarily think through how cruel and horrible the deities end up seeming. Ao is actually a huge jerk from what little we know of him, though, and Helm is a huge jerk by virtue of being Ao's errand-boy.


and that the cosmology (the Wall of the Faithless in particular) is pretty Grimdark under the pastels.

The Wall of the Faithless is a sticky point, but ultimately one that fits with FR's prevailing "the gods are really important" and "Ao is a huge jerk" themes. Other than the Wall, the cosmology isn't really much worse than standard D&D — which is to say that an endless war between the Lower Planes is the only thing keeping them from completely overrunning and destroying the Upper Planes, so yeah, pretty bad.

[sonofzeal]

Basically, yeah. But it's not strictly by intention ... often more of a Burning Hate situation, where the writers didn't necessarily think through how cruel and horrible the deities end up seeming.
Hmm. Could you explain this a little more?

[HunterOfJello]

I like Eberron a lot but I've grown to dislike it as a DM lately in comparison to Forgotten Realms. My biggest complaint is that Eberron lacks sufficient challenge for PCs from mid to high levels. The power level for Eberron was set low in order to give it the magic-technology feel. In a e6 or e8 game, Eberron would be ideal. However, the current group I run is full of players who are interested in getting to 20+ and a world that is based around having the highest non-boss npcs at level 10 or so just doesn't cut it.

[Alleran]

However, the current group I run is full of players who are interested in getting to 20+ and a world that is based around having the highest non-boss npcs at level 10 or so just doesn't cut it.
Go to Io'lokar in Argonessen. It puts virtually any FR city to shame. That particular continent is also (AFAIK) set up for higher level play.


There are major lunar themes, not just Selune and Shar but also Elistraee, Mielekki, Malar...if Eberron is best envisioned on a dreary night in Sharn, think of Forgotten Realms as twilight under a full moon in a forest grove, a gathering of mysterious figures in pastel robes going about some ecstatic ritual.
While dark monsters lurk in the shadows of the surrounding trees.

[sonofzeal]

I like Eberron a lot but I've grown to dislike it as a DM lately in comparison to Forgotten Realms. My biggest complaint is that Eberron lacks sufficient challenge for PCs from mid to high levels. The power level for Eberron was set low in order to give it the magic-technology feel. In a e6 or e8 game, Eberron would be ideal. However, the current group I run is full of players who are interested in getting to 20+ and a world that is based around having the highest non-boss npcs at level 10 or so just doesn't cut it.
Have your Eberron players explored other continents? Khorvair pretty much caps out at ECL 10, but the other three don't. A lvl 12 party can have fun in Xen'drix, a lvl 15 party still has to be cautious in Sarlona, and a lvl 21 party is still cannon fodder in Argonnesen.

[Palanan]

One thing the OP doesn't mention is whether you'll be playing 3.5 or 4E, which would make for about a hundred-year difference on the timeline of the Realms. I'd assume it's 3.5...but, well, never assume.

All my 3.5 experience has been in the Forgotten Realms; that's where my group started, so that's where I'm comfortable, both as a player and a DM. One of the benefits of such a heavily mapped and detailed continent is that you can design your custom scenario the way you'd like, and when it starts to grey out at the edges, there's a fully developed world waiting for you, which saves you from this (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0016.html). (The last sentence in particular.)

The level of detail can be really phenomenal; I was just looking through the 2nd Edition supplement on Waterdeep, and they list dozens of establishments for each of the main wards, sometimes populating entire streets and cul-de-sacs. In some ways the 2E material is richer than what's given in the 3.0 FRCS, although it often has a decidedly hokey flavor.

As for what the average Faerûnian would know, that's pretty well covered in the opening sections of the FRCS, although I don't know if you have access to that one. Their view of peasant and mercantile life is a little rosy for me; without going into too much detail, I'll just say it's not for the historically inclined. They also make a lot of assumptions that aren't really borne out when you start thinking through the implications.

I've only briefly played in Eberron, so I couldn't make too many comparisons about power levels or the comparative feel. The one major contrast I'd mention, at least between Faerûn and Khorvaire, is that the latter has just a handful of large nations, politically and culturally coherent, whereas Faerûn is a mad hodgepodge of much smaller principalities--which in many cases are essentially city-states, often isolated by wild terrain. (In the West, anyway; the East and South are a different story.)

For the DM, this offers any number of opportunities to slip in your own small duchy or independent kingdom; for the player, it can mean a lot of perilous travel time between locales, at least at lower levels.

Also, in Faerûn, you always have to ware that zenith (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20041201a). I don't think you get that in Khorvaire. :smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

Also, in Faerûn, you always have to ware that zenith (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20041201a). I don't think you get that in Khorvaire. :smallbiggrin:
Ware that Zenith? You've lost me...


But yes, 3.5e.

[Feytalist]

Ware that Zenith? You've lost me...

I think he means always look out for dragons on the horizon.


But yeah, Forgotten Realms is a very detailed and deep setting. But frankly, depending on your playstyle, it doesn't play that much different from a generic Grayhawk game, down at the nitty gritty. Main things to remember, as has been said before: gods are important business, lots of high level NPCs that would just love to make life difficult for you, and many many evil organisations and their plots to overthrow.

[sonofzeal]

I think he means always look out for dragons on the horizon.
Ah, yeah, that's not that big of a priority in Eberron. If there's Eberronian dragons on the horizon, you and likely everyone in a five mile radius of you are boned no matter what they do, so they may as well live out the all-too-short remainders of their lives in blissful ignorance.


So... be devout, be paranoid, dance under the full moon wearing purple... and otherwise pretend I'm in Greyhawk?

[CapnVan]

As someone who is a tad synesthetic, Forgotten Realms is a setting sketched in pastels, especially purple and pink. The setting has always seemed a little campy, a place where people tend to wear costumes evocative of the fantasy of the 80's.

I guess we have very different definitions of "campy". I tend to find a woman with a ten inch waist wielding a seven foot sword with a twelve inch wide blade a lot lot campier than anything Elmore or Parkinson ever painted.

And the Purple Dragon Knights are named after the original ruler of Cormyr, who was such an old, bad#$$ black dragon that his scales had faded from pure black to something that appeared almost purple. Not exactly "pastel."

As for the high level NPCs, that's a danger you face with any bad DM. If he's wont to bring Mordenkainen, Raistlin, or the Lady of Pain into your campaign, then yeah, you're going to get your Elminster appearances as well. Otherwise, it shouldn't be a problem. They're there to give verisimilitude to the setting: there's always going to be somebody bigger and badder than the PCs. Some players find that a turnoff.

[Greenish]

I guess we have very different definitions of "campy". I tend to find a woman with a ten inch waist wielding a seven foot sword with a twelve inch wide blade a lot lot campier than anything Elmore or Parkinson ever painted.I don't think he was talking about the art, and I've no idea what you're talking about.


And the Purple Dragon Knights are named after the original ruler of Cormyr, who was such an old, bad#$$ black dragon that his scales had faded from pure black to something that appeared almost purple. Not exactly "pastel."Just because there's an explanation excuse for it doesn't stop Purple Dragon Knights being, well, Purple Dragon Knights. :smalltongue:

[_Jarlaxle_]

And the Purple Dragon Knights are named after the original ruler of Cormyr, who was such an old, bad#$$ black dragon that his scales had faded from pure black to something that appeared almost purple. Not exactly "pastel."

To be specific they are named after the black dragon Thauglor who once ruled the area where Cormyr is now. He lost it to the elves and they gave it to Ondeth Obarskyr the founder and original ruler of Cormyr :smallwink:

[gkathellar]

Why would you name a knightly order after a guy who got beaten up by elves?

[Feytalist]

I suppose it's slightly better than Purple Worm Knights.

But only just.

[Greenish]

Why would you name a knightly order after a guy who got beaten up by elves?Presumably because "Purple Dragon Knights" is still better than "Knights of the Pointy Ear".

[Alleran]

Ah, yeah, that's not that big of a priority in Eberron. If there's Eberronian dragons on the horizon, you and likely everyone in a five mile radius of you are boned no matter what they do, so they may as well live out the all-too-short remainders of their lives in blissful ignorance.
In the Realms, you might happen to spot a dragon on the horizon. It might fly right over the top of you. And ignore you completely, because it is quite busy with its own affairs (whatever they may be) and is entirely disinterested in speaking with you.


So... be devout, be paranoid, dance under the full moon wearing purple... and otherwise pretend I'm in Greyhawk?
Thinking about it, if you're wearing purple, you could be mistaken for one of the Wearers of Purple (ranking members of the Cult of the Dragon, a group who believe in the divinity of dragons and as a result the need to convert them all to dracoliches so that they can take over the world with the Cult as their favoured servants; the cult was started by an archmage and Chosen of Mystra gone insane as a result of influence from an evil cleric, an unhealthy obsession with Mystra in that way, and the mental instability caused by carrying around divine essence inside a squishy mortal body).

Might want to try a different colour.

[Helldog]

Might want to try a different colour.
Red, if you're a Wizard. :smalltongue:

[Palanan]

The zenith is the point in the sky directly above you, wherever you happen to be. "Beware zenith" is an old nautical expression meaning "look out above," shortened to 'ware zenith.

And yes, it's entirely possible that a dragon flying high above you will completely ignore you. But how many DMs would resist that temptation? Not the ones I've played with.

(I've never seen so many followers disposed of so quickly. Our DM was having way too much fun with that.)

[Ancient Mage]

In terms of sheer depth and detail, the Forgotten Realms is similar to the Living Greyhawk. Both campaign settings do share many similarities. I must agree with Urpriest on many things he said, they are very accurate in describing the Realms.
I have no idea what your DM intends to do in Faerun, as it is such a vast world, but beware the Underdark. It seems to be a fascination with Faerun players to end up in the bowels of the earth, and the creatures down there can be pretty tough (magic-resistant, high level drow/disintegrating rust monsters/ Kuo-Toa with huge fish monsters/etc.).

-Ancient Mage

[_Jarlaxle_]

If you find out that you like the Realms and want to delve deep into its vast amounts of lore you might want to visit
http://www.candlekeep.com/

[Xynphos]

There are also no absence of powerful magical items/artifacts in FR. I wouldn't be surprised if you went on the sort of quest to destroy one. My DM likes to do that a lot.

[Smokin Red]

There is an old (late 80's ?!) comic: 'The Grand Tour'
In it Elminster (this epic mage, just in case) shows a young mage the 'Realms.
It's quite funny and it shows (IIRC) that the high-level NPC's like to hire PC help of every level to do things that are just beneath them.
It's probably out of sale, but perhaps you can get a pdf-copy somewhere.

[arguskos]

Ok, seriously, I hate two things that ALWAYS come up when the Realms are mentioned.

First, the gods thing. Yes, the gods are *****. I then point to the Greek gods, and say "UMAD?" Really guy, they're not much worse than the Greeks. Actually, it can be argued they're BETTER than the Greeks, simply because at least the faithful in FR go to better realms than Hades. Do not be overly concerned about the gods being *****. Just have a god and be vaguely faithful, and you'll be fine. It is worth noting that religion can play a major role in a Realms game, and if you go that way, there's so much detail for you to play with that it's absurd. Personally, I love taking the tack that my characters are clerics of dead gods. After all,
That which hath past is ne'er truly gone,
History repeats, though mortals choose not to see.

That foreseen, that foretold.
A god which hath been may be once again.

Second, the NPC thing. Yes, it is a truth that FR has a plethora of higher level NPCs (we're talking 14+, there aren't as many 17+ as people sometimes claim; those tend to be movers and shakers). No, it is a falsehood that they are eager to roll up in your ****. Here's how it works: those NPCs are powerful and important people, and respond as you might expect to someone messing with them. The reason there's so many is because the Realms is huge and highly detailed, not because there's one on every street corner (ok, in Waterdeep, maybe, but for a city with a population of over 1 mil in a fantasy realm, I'm kinda ok with that). Do not let people mislead you, high level NPCs are not going to be all "bwahahaha, level 5 adventurers, what a joke" and murder you for kicks. That's... really not how it works, unless your DM is bad, in which case, all bets are obviously off.

On the topic of playing in it for the first time, well, all I can tell you is that the Realms is the kind of setting that rewards you with more and more complexity and depth based on the amount of effort you put into delving into it. If you pick a character concept and start digging, you can find a plethora of data on where that character may come from, what his civilization would be like, special mechanical stuff for that concept and region, and enough fluff to fill a small novel. Oh, and it's also worth noting that there is more in Faerun than just the Realms. Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Anchorome (though that last one is pretty info-light) all exist and are completely awesome (again, the last one is info-light, so I'm just guessing it's awesome, based on the others).

Give it a shot, let it take you in, and really try to delve into it. It has space for everyone, it's just got so much material it can be hard to find the stuff you really like.

[Greenish]

First, the gods thing. Yes, the gods are *****. I then point to the Greek gods, and say "UMAD?" Really guy, they're not much worse than the Greeks. Actually, it can be argued they're BETTER than the Greeks, simply because at least the faithful in FR go to better realms than Hades.Are you suggesting that's a point for their favour?

I mean, sure, being mugged and stabbed is worse than just being mugged, but being mugged still sucks. :smalltongue:

[ahenobarbi]

Since (as already pointed out a lot) it's detailed it can be a lot of fun to explore this world. Also if you're starting at low levels grab Players Guide to Faerun ad choose your region you will gain some extra equipment (up to 100-300 gp worth which is a lot at 1st level) access to regional feat (you have to take it normally... hardly worth it), extra languages (automatic and to buy if you have high int) and your character will have a "home region" so you will have to learn a bit about it :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

I guess we have very different definitions of "campy". I tend to find a woman with a ten inch waist wielding a seven foot sword with a twelve inch wide blade a lot lot campier than anything Elmore or Parkinson ever painted.

Granted, the picture of the Simbul in the 3e campaign setting doesn't show her with a seven foot sword. Instead she's merely wearing a dress that's in the process of disintegrating.

[arguskos]

Are you suggesting that's a point for their favour?

I mean, sure, being mugged and stabbed is worse than just being mugged, but being mugged still sucks. :smalltongue:
Honestly, yeah kinda. Makes them interesting and curious individuals. I'm also one of those underwater troll-like creatures that finds religion in games fascinating without end, so I like exploring the faiths of the realms, but hey, what do I know?

[Yanagi]

I've played Eberron extensively, but I've never been exposed to FR. I know it's pretty "high heroic fantasy" on the surface and pretty "grimdark" underneath. I know there's hundreds of high level casters and dozens of epic ones. I know a couple of the myths. But that still doesn't tell me all that much. And I'm joining a game soon.

For campaign spoiler reasons I'd ask you not to go into too much detail on "current" politics beyond what a layperson in the setting might know, but what is FR like, as a setting? Why do you, personally, like or dislike it? Is there anything equivalent to the "1001+ Things That The Worst Party In Eberron Is Not Allowed To Do"?

FR is high fantasy, but with an epic, catastrophic element: there's a deep history filled with momentous events...deicides, apocalypses, supernatural total war...and the present is shaped by them. Anywhere in the FR there could be a mystery or horror just beneath the surface of an otherwise normal stretch of land. It's also a setting where magic can reach tremendous heights, but tends not to be integrated into societies at a basic level (as in Eberron): powerful mages tend to stand apart or rule. Many epic events in Forgotten Realms history are the product of massive magical events initiated by only a few individual casters. It's more nuanced than a Greek Golden Age/Iron Age distinction: the people of the past were often screwing up and causing collateral damage on an unimaginable scale...and the people of the present are marked, if not fundamentally damaged, by the results. Part of that after-the-Golden-Age feel is that there's lots of hidden elements--some just lost, some actively obfuscated--waiting to be unearthed.

Another discern-able element is that there's layers and layers of intrigue, mystery, and secret agendas. A lot of the mood of the setting depends on how much the DM/player interaction digs into that layering.

I've always enjoyed the setting as both a player and a DM (I have a great group). The only thing that has ever spoiled my enjoyment is playing and interacting with overly-strident fans of "Realms lore" who seem to have no interest in playing in or with the setting. Ignore them, ignore canon, and enjoy yourself.

[Yanagi]

I've played Eberron extensively, but I've never been exposed to FR. I know it's pretty "high heroic fantasy" on the surface and pretty "grimdark" underneath. I know there's hundreds of high level casters and dozens of epic ones. I know a couple of the myths. But that still doesn't tell me all that much. And I'm joining a game soon.

For campaign spoiler reasons I'd ask you not to go into too much detail on "current" politics beyond what a layperson in the setting might know, but what is FR like, as a setting? Why do you, personally, like or dislike it? Is there anything equivalent to the "1001+ Things That The Worst Party In Eberron Is Not Allowed To Do"?

FR is high fantasy, but with an epic, catastrophic element: there's a deep history filled with momentous events...deicides, apocalypses, supernatural total war...and the present is shaped by them. Anywhere in the FR there could be a mystery or horror just beneath the surface of an otherwise normal stretch of land. It's also a setting where magic can reach tremendous heights, but tends not to be integrated into societies at a basic level (as in Eberron): powerful mages tend to stand apart or rule. Many epic events in Forgotten Realms history are the product of massive magical events initiated by only a few individual casters. It's more nuanced than a Greek Golden Age/Iron Age distinction: the people of the past were often screwing up and causing collateral damage on an unimaginable scale...and the people of the present are marked, if not fundamentally damaged, by the results. Part of that after-the-Golden-Age feel is that there's lots of hidden elements--some just lost, some actively obfuscated--waiting to be unearthed.

Another discern-able element is that there's layers and layers of intrigue, mystery, and secret agendas. A lot of the mood of the setting depends on how much the DM/player interaction digs into that layering.

I've always enjoyed the setting as both a player and a DM (I have a great group). The only thing that has ever spoiled my enjoyment is playing and interacting with overly-strident fans of "Realms lore" who seem to have no interest in playing in or with the setting. Ignore them, ignore canon, and enjoy yourself.

[gkathellar]

Actually, it can be argued they're BETTER than the Greeks, simply because at least the faithful in FR go to better realms than Hades.

Uh...Hades includes Elysium in Greek mythology, guy.

[Urpriest]

Uh...Hades includes Elysium in Greek mythology, guy.

Which almost nobody could access. Your average Greek Joe went to a misty land of amnesia. True, you didn't get tortured unless you were a really bad person, but you were hardly frolicking on a silver mountain as a merry little ball of light either.

[bloodtide]

Thank you Urpriest, that was singularly evocative!

I've also heard many darker things about the setting though - that the gods are generally terrible people, especially the farther up the totem pole they are, and that the cosmology (the Wall of the Faithless in particular) is pretty Grimdark under the pastels. Is there much truth to this?

The gods are not all terrible people, and the gods are not that involved in the day to day stuff. Of course only the terrible gods make the headlines.

The cosmology could be said to be a bit 'dark', but that just makes it more interesting.

[Palanan]

I've actually never read any of the novels or other lore--just the background in the FRCS and the many supplements--so I'm really not that familiar with the various pantheons and their tussles.

Why, exactly, is Ao allegedly a jerk?

[gkathellar]

Which almost nobody could access. Your average Greek Joe went to a misty land of amnesia. True, you didn't get tortured unless you were a really bad person, but you were hardly frolicking on a silver mountain as a merry little ball of light either.

Which ... seems fair to me, since your average Greek wasn't a paragon of virtue. But yeah, my point was just: Greek Hades ≠ D&D Hades.


Why, exactly, is Ao allegedly a jerk?

By jerk, I really mean, "doesn't care about what happens to Toril or any of its denizens, as long as it remains close to intact." The Time of Troubles is the most striking example of this, because Ao's actions were basically a big shining middle finger to Toril and all its gods, despite the vague justifications the functionally omnipotent god claimed for screwing people over.

But Ao doesn't matter for day-to-day affairs.

[arguskos]

Which ... seems fair to me, since your average Greek wasn't a paragon of virtue. But yeah, my point was just: Greek Hades ≠ D&D Hades.
Yes, I am aware of that. See though, the VAST MAJORITY of people in D&D (even in the Realms) do not go to misty amnesia land, whereas the Greeks really kinda did. Greek Hades wasn't all hellfire and damnation, but I know I'd take my chances with the FR afterlife over the Greek one, any day of the week.

Also, minor nitpick, but I do have a name, and though sometimes I wish otherwise, it's not "guy" (imagine the jokes if it was though!). :smalltongue:

[gkathellar]

Yes, I am aware of that. See though, the VAST MAJORITY of people in D&D (even in the Realms) do not go to misty amnesia land, whereas the Greeks really kinda did. Greek Hades wasn't all hellfire and damnation, but I know I'd take my chances with the FR afterlife over the Greek one, any day of the week.

No doubt.

I, personally, would go with the Greeks — but only because I couldn't bring myself to worship any of the FR gods. They all strike me as either jerks, condescending jerks, or thoroughly stylish comic book villains. Jerks are ruled out for obvious reasons, and I couldn't worship the last set because I want to be Doctor Doom Talos, not worship him. If I were in FR, I'd have to become an immortal Ur-Priest, just to stick it to the man.


Also, minor nitpick, but I do have a name, and though sometimes I wish otherwise, it's not "guy" (imagine the jokes if it was though!). :smalltongue:

I call everybody guy once in a while. IRL, online, gender non-specific. No offense meant.

[bloodtide]

By jerk, I really mean, "doesn't care about what happens to Toril or any of its denizens, as long as it remains close to intact." The Time of Troubles is the most striking example of this, because Ao's actions were basically a big shining middle finger to Toril and all its gods, despite the vague justifications the functionally omnipotent god claimed for screwing people over.

But Ao doesn't matter for day-to-day affairs.

This is not true. This is one of them 'god things'. Ao let the ToT happen sure. And he did not 'care' how the Realms were effected, if you look at it from the surface. I guess you could say he did not 'care' that people were hurt or killed during the ToT(but then that does happen every day).

Ao let the Realms get shaken up for a while, but did not let things get out of control. There was plenty of wild stuff, but nothing was obliterated(like with the 4E changes).

[arguskos]

I, personally, would go with the Greeks — but only because I couldn't bring myself to worship any of the FR gods. They all strike me as either jerks, condescending jerks, or thoroughly stylish comic book villains. Jerks are ruled out for obvious reasons, and I couldn't worship the last set because I want to be Doctor Doom Talos, not worship him. If I were in FR, I'd have to become an immortal Ur-Priest, just to stick it to the man.
See, the whole "they're all jerks" thing confuses me. None of them chose to implement the Wall (the only thing you can really get on some of them for; really, what's Ilmater's crime? Being too nice? Same question applies to a variety of them). Kelemvor only maintains it because it's one of his divine duties, not because he thinks it's necessarily right or just.

Sure, the evil gods are jerks or a little comic bookish (man, Talos is so awesome), but many of the good gods are legitimately good peeps stuck in not the best situation, prevented from doing anything about it by the ultimate argument ender: death by "lolIsaidso" from Ao's grouchy self.

Not sure why you couldn't find it in your heart to be all "hey Ilmater, you're a good dude" or "Tyr, you're pretty overly strict, but you obviously mean well" or "Tymora, you're fun". Don't see the issue. However, this discussion can easily stray into real life politics, and I think we might wanna leave it at this for the moment. We both acknowledge each other's points and agree to let it be for the sake of forum rules (not that I really want to drop it, but safety first, etc).


I call everybody guy once in a while. IRL, online, gender non-specific. No offense meant.
Fair 'nuff. Hard to discern innocent nicknaming from aloof dickishness online. 'sall good brotherman. :smallcool:

[olentu]

See, the whole "they're all jerks" thing confuses me. None of them chose to implement the Wall (the only thing you can really get on some of them for; really, what's Ilmater's crime? Being too nice? Same question applies to a variety of them). Kelemvor only maintains it because it's one of his divine duties, not because he thinks it's necessarily right or just.

Sure, the evil gods are jerks or a little comic bookish (man, Talos is so awesome), but many of the good gods are legitimately good peeps stuck in not the best situation, prevented from doing anything about it by the ultimate argument ender: death by "lolIsaidso" from Ao's grouchy self.

Not sure why you couldn't find it in your heart to be all "hey Ilmater, you're a good dude" or "Tyr, you're pretty overly strict, but you obviously mean well" or "Tymora, you're fun". Don't see the issue. However, this discussion can easily stray into real life politics, and I think we might wanna leave it at this for the moment. We both acknowledge each other's points and agree to let it be for the sake of forum rules (not that I really want to drop it, but safety first, etc).


Fair 'nuff. Hard to discern innocent nicknaming from aloof dickishness online. 'sall good brotherman. :smallcool:

Actually I think kelemvor abolished the wall and all the other gods forced him to put it back up. I am thinking it was because they were afraid of Ao getting ticked off.

[gkathellar]

Actually I think kelemvor abolished the wall and all the other gods forced him to put it back up. I am thinking it was because they were afraid of Ao getting ticked off.

Kelemvor started judging people by their actual moral values in life, which pissed the evil gods off, so they brought it to divine tribunal and the greater deities collectively convicted him of incompetence by reason of humanity.

You know, because maintaining the balance between good and evil is more important to even FR's good gods than actually being either of those things. EDIT: Which, I think, is what give the whole setting such a strong sensation of Elminster Syndrome when you examine it. So much of its setup is clearly there for no other reason than to maintain the status quo.

[olentu]

Kelemvor started judging people by their actual moral values in life, which pissed the evil gods off, so they brought it to divine tribunal and the greater deities collectively convicted him of incompetence by reason of humanity.

You know, because maintaining the balance between good and evil is more important to even FR's good gods than actually being either of those things. EDIT: Which, I think, is what give the whole setting such a strong sensation of Elminster Syndrome when you examine it. So much of it's setupi is clearly there for no other reason than to maintain the status quo.

Yeah that sounds right, it had been so long details had become fuzzy. Thanks for the clarification.

[NNescio]

Presumably because "Purple Dragon Knights" is still better than "Knights of the Pointy Ear".

I love the name so much, my next game is going to have a bunch of knights of the Pointy Ear.

Of course, I'm going to call them the Ordo Equester Auriculae Acutalis, just so my players don't catch on.

[Alleran]

Kelemvor started judging people by their actual moral values in life, which pissed the evil gods off, so they brought it to divine tribunal and the greater deities collectively convicted him of incompetence by reason of humanity.
He wasn't convicted - he changed it before the final verdict came down. Once he set things up so that Faithless and False simply had a realm of featureless grey for the rest of eternity, they were cool with that (since he wasn't accidentally stealing all the followers of the other gods, which is what he had been unknowingly doing by judging people according to the morals and values he had held as a mortal).

The Wall of the Faithless returning was just a random thing that showed up in the 3.5e Player's Guide, IIRC. A lot of people latch onto the Neverwinter Nights II expansion as the reason why it went back up, but I don't think I've ever seen that stated anywhere else.

[olentu]

He wasn't convicted - he changed it before the final verdict came down. Once he set things up so that Faithless and False simply had a realm of featureless grey for the rest of eternity, they were cool with that (since he wasn't accidentally stealing all the followers of the other gods, which is what he had been unknowingly doing by judging people according to the morals and values he had held as a mortal).

The Wall of the Faithless returning was just a random thing that showed up in the 3.5e Player's Guide, IIRC. A lot of people latch onto the Neverwinter Nights II expansion as the reason why it went back up, but I don't think I've ever seen that stated anywhere else.

The wall is described in the older 3.0 forgotten realms campaign setting book which if I recall the dates correctly came out 2 or 3 years after the last of that avatar series.

[Talya]

I don't know...sure, Helm and Tyr can be pricks (ignoring evil gods, who are supposed to be pricks), but out of the entire pantheon, I really like:

Sune
Sharess
Lathander
Mystra
Selune
Eilistraee
Mielikki
Lurue
Red Knight
Corellon Larethian
Torm
Deneir
Moradin

Basing a religious Good or Neutral aligned character around any of these is a lot of fun.

[Palanan]

I've played several druids of Mielikki and I have to agree. She's a goddess of the hunt, and yet she takes time out to heal wounded animals. Mercy and compassion: I don't see the problem here.

Also, Eilistraee. From what I remember, she joined the drow in their exile so they would have some faint touchstone of good waiting for them. Feel free to correct me on details, but I had the impression of noble self-sacrifice.

[Feytalist]

Also, Eilistraee. From what I remember, she joined the drow in their exile so they would have some faint touchstone of good waiting for them. Feel free to correct me on details, but I had the impression of noble self-sacrifice.

That's about right, yes.

But really, like arguskos said, none of that is really all that important unless you want to lose yourself in FR lore (which, admittedly, is tons of fun). Pick a deity, try to at least allude to them every once in a while, and don't worry about it any more. Especially for new FR players.

[sonofzeal]

One other thing the DM told me was that FR connects fluff and crunch much more fully than other settings, and that classes are more likely to be in-game constructs. He's said he tries to be flexible on this, but I don't know how much is the setting and how much is his own opinions.

[Feytalist]

Well, I'd certainly frown a bit if you took the Red Wizard prestige class without actually being a part of the Red Wizards of Thay, or the Zhent fighter ACF without belonging to the Zhentarim. Also, in FR regional feats actually mean something. So, no Southern Magician for you, unless you're actually a human from the required region (Halruaa, isn't it?). So your DM might be correct in that regard.

As for classes being in-game constructs, that's certainly the way my group plays, but it's obviously open to playstyle.

[Alleran]

I don't know...sure, Helm and Tyr can be pricks (ignoring evil gods, who are supposed to be pricks), but out of the entire pantheon, I really like:

Sharess
"High Priestess!"
"Yes, acolyte?"
"The sun came up! Is it a sign?"
"Yes, it is."
*NSFW activities ensue*

Goddess of hedonism, festhalls (read: brothels) and sensual fulfillment. I suppose there are worse deities to worship. :smallbiggrin:

[CapnVan]

Granted, the picture of the Simbul in the 3e campaign setting doesn't show her with a seven foot sword. Instead she's merely wearing a dress that's in the process of disintegrating.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I was back in the '80s & '90s.

Happy to give you any of the 3E and after art as pretty darn campy.

[CapnVan]

Are you suggesting that's a point for their favour?

I mean, sure, being mugged and stabbed is worse than just being mugged, but being mugged still sucks. :smalltongue:

I think you may be letting our secular mindset go to far. And I say that as a very secular person.

If you've ever seen a blessing of a fishing fleet, they can be fun. But I've never heard of a fisherman who skipped it being eaten by a dragon turtle. In the Realms, that certainly can happen. The gods are real (as far as that goes in the FRPG sense), and they take their spheres of influence seriously.

It strikes me that it ought to be that way in most FRPGs with actual gods — if you're playing in a Greek themed setting, and head off to war without making a sacrifice to Ares, he ought to take notice. And maybe make something bad happen to the PC.

Why is that a bad thing? Isn't it just another part of the setting? At least as "realistic" as, say, the existence of dragon turtles?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Feytalist
So, no Southern Magician for you, unless you're actually a human from the required region (Halruaa, isn't it?).

Actually, Southern Magician requires a Mulan human, who are generally some ways to the northeast of Halruaa--in Thay, Chessenta, Mulhorand...essentially the eastern reaches of the Sea of Fallen Stars. But people do move around. :smalltongue:

[Wookie-ranger]

I suppose it's slightly better than Purple Worm Knights.

hmmm, i think i need to homebrew a new PrC with that name :smallsmile:

[Palanan]

Purple Pony Knights? Could be hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

Purple Pony Knights? Could be hilarious. :smallbiggrin:
As long as the purple ponies aren't also magic unicorns.

[Urpriest]

One other thing the DM told me was that FR connects fluff and crunch much more fully than other settings, and that classes are more likely to be in-game constructs. He's said he tries to be flexible on this, but I don't know how much is the setting and how much is his own opinions.

...kind of. One thing you'll notice is that a lot of things that normally get refluffed in other settings come from FR, so there they mean something more specific. The others have mentioned several. It's not that unreasonable: you might play a warforged as a living scarecrow in Greyhawk, but that shouldn't fly in Eberron.

Another thing is that because all divine casters need to devote themselves to a deity, it's hard to do much refluffing of any divine caster because your god expects you to act like a stereotypical member of your class, at least to some degree (and flavored by the god in question, of course: a Paladin of Sune is very different from a Paladin of Tyr).

[Talya]

Another thing is that because all divine casters need to devote themselves to a deity...

Except for...Ur-Priests. :smallsmile:

Although, the Ur-Priest class option to devote your character to the resurrection of a fallen deity is spectacularly flavorful in the FR cosmology.

Lost Empires of Faerun highly recommended in that case.

[sonofzeal]

hmmm, i think i need to homebrew a new PrC with that name :smallsmile:
You're aware they already exist, right? Sandstorm, page 66.

[Urpriest]

You're aware they already exist, right? Sandstorm, page 66.

Hmm, but they only ride little ashworms. It would be awesome if they could upgrade to a full Purple Worm.

[Safety Sword]

Except for...Ur-Priests. :smallsmile:

Although, the Ur-Priest class option to devote your character to the resurrection of a fallen deity is spectacularly flavorful in the FR cosmology.

Lost Empires of Faerun highly recommended in that case.

One of the best games I ever had was exactly this..

Exception being that the deity wasn't actually dead... I was an Ur-Priest (devoted?) to Mystryl, the former Goddess of Magic before the Netehrese did their bad stuff and Mystra was "born".

And for the twist. Mystryl, not being nearly as dead as everyone assumed, was really quite annoyed that she wasn't the goddess of magic anymore. Queue my character being on an (un)holy quest to kill the followers of Mystra and find a way to destroy her and give power back to Mystryl. Didn't quite work out as the goddess and I intended, but I was a better god of magic than she would ever have been second time around in any case :smallamused:

Not exactly the standard FR time line, but damn was that campaign awesome.

[Alleran]

Although, the Ur-Priest class option to devote your character to the resurrection of a fallen deity is spectacularly flavorful in the FR cosmology.

Lost Empires of Faerun highly recommended in that case.
Ur-Priests either draw power from dead gods (with that feat that allows them to do so in LEoF), or think they're stealing power when in reality some god is supplying the spells to the individual for their own plans and purposes.

[Urpriest]

Ur-Priests either draw power from dead gods (with that feat that allows them to do so in LEoF), or think they're stealing power when in reality some god is supplying the spells to the individual for their own plans and purposes.

There a sourcebook that back that up? Because stealing power from gods seems consistent fluffwise with FR, as long as the power came from the gods originally.

[Icestorm245]

Have you ever played Neverwinter Nights? It's a good introduction into FR, bringing you into some of most major places of Faeurn, including but not only Neverwinter, Waterdeep, Ancient Netheril, and the Underdark. I'm not saying it's the pinnacle of FR lore, but if you're looking for a place to start, I'd start with that.

[Helldog]

There's a feat in Power of FaerunLost Empires of Faerun called Servant of The Fallen or something like that. It allows the Cleric to worship a dead god and still get spells.

[Alleran]

There a sourcebook that back that up? Because stealing power from gods seems consistent fluffwise with FR, as long as the power came from the gods originally.
Something Greenwood said regarding divine spells. One of the differences between FR and Core is the whole deity aspect, and the need to have one (or, you know, worship demons/devils and go there when you die instead of the Wall...).

"In 2nd Edition, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained or renewed without direct connection to any deity (and so were obtainable during a Godswar, as I suggested in DRAGON #54, and we later all saw in the Time of Troubles). As a general rule, divine spells should be granted by deities (or their servant creatures) only as a result of direct prayer: in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect.

However (weasel time), there will be exceptions, because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerûnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As I’ve said before, there are secrets about the gods I can’t yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or “the wrong” god."
I don't actually know of any NPC in the entire 3rd edition FR corpus who has Ur-Priest levels.


There's a feat in Power of Faerun called Servant of The Fallen or something like that. It allows the Cleric to worship a dead god and still get spells.
Is it in PoF as well? I know it's in LEoF (page 9), but was under the impression that the PoF one had to do with heretical impressions of a god that go against the standard doctrine. The given example being the Risen Sun heresy and the whole Lathander-is-Amaunator issue.

[gkathellar]

Have you ever played Baldur's Gate 1 & 2? It's a good introduction into FR, bringing you into some of best places of Faeurn, including but not only the the Sword Coast, Amn, Tethyr and the Underdark. I'm not saying it's the pinnacle of FR lore, and if you're looking for a place to start, I'd start with that.

Fixed that for you.

NWN1 has a terrible core campaign. Utterly godawful. SoU and HotU are marginal improvements, but almost everything good about the game lies in the enormous catalog of fan-made modules. NWN2 is noticeably better, and I haven't played MotB but I've heard it's almost at Planescape levels of quality. So yeah, the BG series and NWN2 are the CRPGs of choice if you're looking to learn the Forgotten Realms.

[Safety Sword]

Fixed that for you.

NWN1 has a terrible core campaign. Utterly godawful. SoU and HotU are marginal improvements, but almost everything good about the game lies in the enormous catalog of fan-made modules. NWN2 is noticeably better, and I haven't played MotB but I've heard it's almost at Planescape levels of quality. So yeah, the BG series and NWN2 are the CRPGs of choice if you're looking to learn the Forgotten Realms.

And you can learn how to play AD&D at the same time :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

Something Greenwood said regarding divine spells. One of the differences between FR and Core is the whole deity aspect, and the need to have one (or, you know, worship demons/devils and go there when you die instead of the Wall...).

"In 2nd Edition, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained or renewed without direct connection to any deity (and so were obtainable during a Godswar, as I suggested in DRAGON #54, and we later all saw in the Time of Troubles). As a general rule, divine spells should be granted by deities (or their servant creatures) only as a result of direct prayer: in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect.

However (weasel time), there will be exceptions, because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerûnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As I’ve said before, there are secrets about the gods I can’t yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or “the wrong” god."
I don't actually know of any NPC in the entire 3rd edition FR corpus who has Ur-Priest levels.


I don't know of any NPC anywhere that has Ur-Priest levels, besides the example characters in their respective books. But what Greenwood says there is entirely consistent with spells being stolen: they were still granted by a god as a result of direct prayer, they just got stolen along the way.

[Palanan]

Alleran, where is that Greenwood quote from?

I usually play divine casters of one sort or another, and in the 3.5 games I've been in, we've always gone by the standard spell slots for each level. I've never gone too deep into Realmslore, much less the Mind of Greenwood, so this is the first I've heard of "extra" magic depending upon how well you serve.

[Alleran]

But what Greenwood says there is entirely consistent with spells being stolen: they were still granted by a god as a result of direct prayer, they just got stolen along the way.
It's supplementary to the notation in the FRCS:

"...no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers.

All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity. In fact, most people in Faerun choose a deity as their patron. It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one."

An Ur-Priest would probably fall under either philosophy ("I hate gods, but their power can be stolen and used") or abstract source (if a god is the abstract source). And it further notes that it is outright impossible to gain divine spells (i.e. what an Ur-Priest has) without a patron deity supplying them.. An Ur-Priest couldn't have a patron deity, since that would pretty much run counter to the entire concept of an Ur-Priest (unless you're getting spells via the heretic or dead god feats, which is noted in the adaption part):

"Ur-priests despise gods. However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a deity."

FR has a setting-wide rule that says "deities only for divine spells" that would lock out an Ur-Priest from functioning as presented in CD, even if the Ur-Priest thinks that he is actually stealing power from them (the weasel room Greenwood gave himself, and what I mentioned originally). It's also why druids (and paladins, and rangers) need a patron deity in FR as well. They cast divine spells, and divine spells need a patron deity.


Alleran, where is that Greenwood quote from?
There's a Q&A thread on the Candlekeep website. He has replies stretching back to 2004 on all manner of topics. Here's a link to most of them (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/so_saith_ed.htm). The current thread is here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15988&whichpage=1).

[Urpriest]

It's supplementary to the notation in the FRCS:

"...no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers.

All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity. In fact, most people in Faerun choose a deity as their patron. It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one."

An Ur-Priest would probably fall under either philosophy ("I hate gods, but their power can be stolen and used") or abstract source (if a god is the abstract source). And it further notes that it is outright impossible to gain divine spells (i.e. what an Ur-Priest has) without a patron deity supplying them.. An Ur-Priest couldn't have a patron deity, since that would pretty much run counter to the entire concept of an Ur-Priest (unless you're getting spells via the heretic or dead god feats, which is noted in the adaption part):

"Ur-priests despise gods. However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a deity."

FR has a setting-wide rule that says "deities only for divine spells" that would lock out an Ur-Priest from functioning as presented in CD, even if the Ur-Priest thinks that he is actually stealing power from them (the weasel room Greenwood gave himself, and what I mentioned originally). It's also why druids (and paladins, and rangers) need a patron deity in FR as well. They cast divine spells, and divine spells need a patron deity.


There's a Q&A thread on the Candlekeep website. He has replies stretching back to 2004 on all manner of topics. Here's a link to most of them (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/so_saith_ed.htm). The current thread is here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15988&whichpage=1).

Again, I don't think you understand how Ur-Priests are supposed to work. They aren't just siphoning divine power from gods in general. They literally come in when a patron deity is giving spells to a particular cleric, and steal those spells. A setting where gods grant specific spells to specific people is one in which the Ur-Priest makes more sense, not less. An Ur-Priest always gains divine power with the aid of a patron: someone else's patron.

[Alleran]

An Ur-Priest always gains divine power with the aid of a patron: someone else's patron.
"In fact, most people in Faerun choose a deity as their patron. It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one."

That doesn't get around that, though. You choose a deity as your patron. You can't get divine spells without having your own patron that supplies you with the necessary magic. Not somebody else's patron. Somebody else's patron deity serves the function of a patron deity for that other person, not for you. If you don't choose your own patron deity to supply you with divine spells, you're not going to get them - they can't be stolen, because it's frankly impossible to do so.

[Feytalist]

Is it in PoF as well? I know it's in LEoF (page 9), but was under the impression that the PoF one had to do with heretical impressions of a god that go against the standard doctrine. The given example being the Risen Sun heresy and the whole Lathander-is-Amaunator issue.

The feat is Heretic of the Faith. It allows a cleric to swap one of his domains out for one not usually given by his patron, embracing a "heretical" aspect of his faith. Such as the Lathander/Amaunator thing you mentioned.


As far as I understood the Ur-Priest issue, in FR terms a sneaky deity would "grant" an Ur-priest his spells, even though he might think he's siphoning it off from someone else. Much like the Karanoks actually receive their spells from Tiamat, the Uliutan get theirs from Auril, the worshipers of Sseth get theirs from... Tiamat again, and so on. All without them knowing it.

[horseboy]

And that doesn't mean, "Don't piss of Elminster." It means, "Don't piss off anyone, because high-level former adventurers are everywhere."

Yeah, the there's a goddess who owns a bar in Waterdeep.


It's not Grimdark like 40k, it's Grimdark like fairy tales. Not Grimm's fairy tales, but regular fairy tales. Basically, lots of things in the setting have unfortunate implications if you think them through, but you're not really supposed to think them through. Nobody in the setting is depressed about the Wall of the Faithless, it's just how those people are supposed to be treated. You won't end up on the Wall of the Faithless because you're dedicated to a god, so why worry about those people? While the gods are kind of jerks, this is true of the Greek gods, and they're still thought of as suitable for children's stories.
Did they change this? Used to be (Avatar Crisis) the wall was made out of the "false", fallen clerics. The Faithless were the slave labor that was forced to put them there.

If I were to sum up FR in one word it would be "Shenanigans".

[_Jarlaxle_]

Yeah, the there's a goddess who owns a bar in Waterdeep.

No, theres not.

[Prime32]

"In fact, most people in Faerun choose a deity as their patron. It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one."Without a patron or without a deity?

[Belril Duskwalk]

No, theres not.

There might be. One of the member's of Waterdeep's nobility is the demi-power Siamorph.


As far as I understood the Ur-Priest issue, in FR terms a sneaky deity would "grant" an Ur-priest his spells, even though he might think he's siphoning it off from someone else. Much like the Karanoks actually receive their spells from Tiamat, the Uliutan get theirs from Auril, the worshipers of Sseth get theirs from... Tiamat again, and so on. All without them knowing it.

Cyric built his church on this. When Bane died he took up granting spells to the entire clergy of Bane (and thus accepting their worship and prayers). He might have done the same with the church of Leira now, assuming she's dead, she's a goddess of lies and deception so it's really hard to get a straight answer. So yeah, it's well-established that gods can grant powers to people, even if those people think the power comes from a different source.