Could Redcloak win, and the story still have a happy endiing

[Adama]

Note that I do not say, "Could Team Evil Win?" Obviously, Xykon can't "win" as his idea of winning is world domination, and must be opposed at all costs.


But is it so unimaginable that Redcloak could "win"? All he really wants is a fair playing field for goblinoid races. If the gods got together and gave him that, they'd take out one of the major threats to the continuation of reality.

In a classic story, of course, Redcloak would lose for being on the side of "evil." But being OOTS, and specializing in undermining and subverting cliches about moral alignment, what's to say that Redcloak doesn't make it?

[skaddix]

I suppose it is possible for this to happen.

[Lamech]

Redcloak would need another epiphany about humans and co. (like he did about Hobo's) before he would really want goodness, fairness and justice. Right now he is still fairly evil. Okay technically he is slightly less evil than say... the elves with there "only good goblin is a dead goblin".

[Anarion]

Redcloak suffers from a near pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy: he believes that once he has committed resources to something, he can't divert from his path or it would make those resources wasted.

SoD spoilers
In particular, if Redcloak is under the belief that killing his own brother would have been utterly in vain if he ever diverts from Xykon's plans.

So, for Redcloak to have any hope of a happy ending, he would need to get over that particular psychological hangup. The problem, however, is that getting over the hangup would be almost guaranteed to involved betraying Xykon, and at that point it's exceedingly unlikely that Redcloak's gate ritual would ever get cast.

So, could Redcloak win? I doubt it. If he does complete the ritual, it will be as part of team evil and would probably result in world-shattering consequences of one manner or another.

However, could Redcloak achieve the underlying ideal of a goblin state capable of co-existing with the rest of the world? Yeah, that could happen, probably posthumously under the leadership of Jirix. It might still be a bad thing in the sense that they would be a military state that displaced many humans/elves/dwarves/whatever, but it could work out and establish itself as a flourishing community

[ti'esar]

I think the idea of goblins gaining equality is not at all incompatible with a happy ending. The problem is, that's not quite the same thing as Redcloak "winning".

[Prowl]

I think the idea of goblins gaining equality is not at all incompatible with a happy ending. The problem is, that's not quite the same thing as Redcloak "winning".

Isn't it? I thought that was Redcloak's objective - for the goblinoids to be given the equal respect of other humanoid races.

[Bad Hair Day]

Azurites vs. Goblinoids is not "Good vs. Evil" in the classical sense, but it is in the D&D sense. My hope is that the author has a happy ending for both the Azurites (who have a lot of ground to make up regarding past crimes) and the Goblinoids (who have to come to terms with their current abuses of power).

I think that the "big picture" point is that the Azurites and the Gobbos are both two sides of the same coin. I hope that the author intends for the reader to overcome the habit of seeing the Azurites as "good" because they are humans like we are and the Gobbos as "evil" because they look like what our nightmares are made of. This same kind of "my tribe" vs. "your tribe" is responsible for a lot of the actual evil that occurs in the world.

My Two Cents,

BHD

[sun_tzu]

Isn't it? I thought that was Redcloak's objective - for the goblinoids to be given the equal respect of other humanoid races.

No, it's not.
Redcloak may claim that, but actions speak louder than words. And what did he do once he conquered Azure City? He enslaved its human population, treating them with wanton cruelty.
Redcloak doesn't want equality. He just wants to be the oppressor instead of the oppressed. We've seen one goblin in OOTS who wanted equality, and he's dead.

[Killer Angel]

Redcloak suffers from a near pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy: he believes that once he has committed resources to something, he can't divert from his path or it would make those resources wasted.

SoD spoilers
In particular, if Redcloak is under the belief that killing his own brother would have been utterly in vain if he ever diverts from Xykon's plans.

So, for Redcloak to have any hope of a happy ending, he would need to get over that particular psychological hangup. The problem, however, is that getting over the hangup would be almost guaranteed to involved betraying Xykon, and at that point it's exceedingly unlikely that Redcloak's gate ritual would ever get cast.


There's certainly a good amount of truth in it, but we also know that Redcloack follow his own agenda, which is slightly different from Xykon's.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the idea of goblins gaining equality is not at all incompatible with a happy ending. The problem is, that's not quite the same thing as Redcloak "winning".

Indeed. In fact I think a much better outcome would be Righteye winning.

[snikrept]

The goblinoid Plan may succeed, but I doubt Redcloak will see himself as winning, when he sees how the ending goes.

[toughluck]

Or rather, Xykon has his own agenda, which directly contradicts Redcloak's. For Redcloak to actually win, he would need to face Xykon, or he would lose.

Redcloak is between a rock and a hard place. He can lose in more ways than one, and pretty much everyone will do anything to prevent him from winning. Worst of all, Xyykon has overwhelming odds against him, including an early warning -- RC would need to off Tsukiko to have any hope of winning against Xykon, and that would be alarming even to Xykon, meaning RC would be in an extremely tough battle right after a previous tough battle.

[ti'esar]

No, it's not.
Redcloak may claim that, but actions speak louder than words. And what did he do once he conquered Azure City? He enslaved its human population, treating them with wanton cruelty.
Redcloak doesn't want equality. He just wants to be the oppressor instead of the oppressed. We've seen one goblin in OOTS who wanted equality, and he's dead.

Technically, it was more like a community, but good point. And the reason they're dead is because of Redcloak himself. I think that, barring a major character reversal, nothing Redcloak will do will help the cause of goblin equality, except inadvertently.


The goblinoid Plan may succeed, but I doubt Redcloak will see himself as winning, when he sees how the ending goes.

Also a good point. Frankly, I don't think Redcloak can win: he's not going to admit true goblin equality can be achieved through anything but the Plan (again, barring major character reversal), and the Plan is almost certainly not going to work.


Or rather, Xykon has his own agenda, which directly contradicts Redcloak's. For Redcloak to actually win, he would need to face Xykon, or he would lose.

He doesn't need to face Xykon himself. All he needs to do is make sure the ritual goes off as planned, and the Dark One will handle that for him.

[The Pilgrim]

Redcloak has already achieved the objective of giving the Goblins a fair playing field: They have former Azure City and the fertile Blue River Valley. 17 nations across the World, including Cliffport, have recognized the Goblin State.

It's not THE win for Redcloak, as his true objective is the Dark One's Plan. But it's a fair consolation prize - mainly for the Goblins, the true victims of all this scheme.

[toughluck]

Technically, it was more like a community, but good point. And the reason they're dead is because of Redcloak himself. I think that, barring a major character reversal, nothing Redcloak will do will help the cause of goblin equality, except inadvertently.
He meant the Dark One, not Right-Eye or anybody from SoD. Dark One wanted a level playing field, and was dispatched during the summit meeting.


He doesn't need to face Xykon himself. All he needs to do is make sure the ritual goes off as planned, and the Dark One will handle that for him.
Yes, he does need to face Xykon. Xykon is paranoid, not to the point of being prepared for anything, or doing something that's boring, but if the entire plan for world domination hinges on a ritual supplied by a goblin who may or may not be trustworthy, you'd have the ritual studied -- and amended if necessary.
RC knows he lied to Xykon wrt. the ritual. He didn't tell Xykon that the ritual will hand the control over the gates to DO rather than X, and Xykon would not join the plan -- or would abandon it shortly after becoming undead* -- if RC coughed up the truth.
*) That would include killing Redcloak, by the way.
Xykon knows he's being lied to. If anything, RC offers him full power, even though he doesn't trust him, and despite offing his family. Xykon knows RC is following him much too willingly -- for all the atrocities that the pair committed -- to trust him. The least he could do is check the ritual and make sure that even if he's getting ripped off, he may as well know the cut and alter it as he sees fit -- like from 0 to 100%.

[ti'esar]

He meant the Dark One, not Right-Eye or anybody from SoD. Dark One wanted a level playing field, and was dispatched during the summit meeting.

I think the Dark One definitely does not want equality (maybe he did pre-ascension, but we really only have his word for this), but that's another story.


Yes, he does need to face Xykon. Xykon is paranoid, not to the point of being prepared for anything, or doing something that's boring, but if the entire plan for world domination hinges on a ritual supplied by a goblin who may or may not be trustworthy, you'd have the ritual studied -- and amended if necessary.
RC knows he lied to Xykon wrt. the ritual. He didn't tell Xykon that the ritual will hand the control over the gates to DO rather than X, and Xykon would not join the plan -- or would abandon it shortly after becoming undead* -- if RC coughed up the truth.
*) That would include killing Redcloak, by the way.
Xykon knows he's being lied to. If anything, RC offers him full power, even though he doesn't trust him, and despite offing his family. Xykon knows RC is following him much too willingly -- for all the atrocities that the pair committed -- to trust him. The least he could do is check the ritual and make sure that even if he's getting ripped off, he may as well know the cut and alter it as he sees fit -- like from 0 to 100%.

I don't think Redcloak really cares if he survives as long as the ritual goes as planned. But you're right that he might wind up having to face Xykon in order to make sure that happens. Still, I think he has to have planned for that - as Xykon is all-but-irreplaceable for the ritual, a confrontation that only one of them will walk away from is a very bad thing for Redcloak, and I can't imagine he hasn't considered that. I suppose this does give him a reason to try and grab the phylactery for himself like people have been arguing.

[StrykerX]

I think the best outcome Redcloak can hope for is to die heroically (or anti-heroically, as the case may be) trying to give the goblins equality, and for his actions to help bring that about. Redcloak is simply too anti-human for a goblin society he rules to live in peace with humans... for the same reason, certain Sapphire Guard paladins need to end up dead or retired since they are so anti-goblin that they would be unlikely to accept peace with a goblin society. My prediction for a "happy" ending for Redcloak would be that he gives his life to stop Xykon from actually taking over and is instrumental in Xykon's final defeat, with Jirax then taking up the Crimson Mantle and negotiating a peace treaty with the humans. In the absolute best case Redcloak might voluntarily step down and let a less prejudiced goblin take charge but I can't really see him doing that.

I really like Redcloak because while he is evil, he actually does care for his people and is fighting for a cause rather than personal power. Sadly, I don't see lasting goblin / human peace happening even if the Goblins do get equality though simply because a lot of the goblinoids are evil, and therefore a goblin nation will probably end up acting like most evil human nations do: raiding, starting wars, and generally walking around with a big "smite me" sign on their back. :smalltongue:

[Joerg]

The goblinoid races could move to the planet inside the rifts. As a side effect of that move, they may be free from their evil god.

I would see this as a victory for Redcloak, especially if he somehow parts from the Plan once he learns about the true nature of the rifts.

[Ancalagon]

I think Redcloak has already won.

He created a nation of goblins and that city state has trade connections to existing empires, the resistance has been killed and they probably have some weeks or months left under the cloister.

This is all he ever wanted. Now the goblins have their fair playing field and can make it work or not.

[Gift Jeraff]

DStP commentary confirms that creating a suitable goblin state is Redcloak's primary goal, above and beyond the Plan. If he realizes that the Dark One is indeed a petty, spiteful god who cares more about revenge than goblin prosperity, I don't think he'll mind at all when the Plan is foiled. He'll probably rot in the Nine Hells, but I think he would still have "won."

[Absol197]

I think Redcloak has already won.

He created a nation of goblins and that city state has trade connections to existing empires, the resistance has been killed and they probably have some weeks or months left under the cloister.

This is all he ever wanted. Now the goblins have their fair playing field and can make it work or not.

And that city is slowly being consumed by a giant whole in the fabric of reality that will eventually expand to cover the entire city they've worked so hard to build! They've got everything he, wait...

[Math_Mage]

I think Redcloak has already won.

He created a nation of goblins and that city state has trade connections to existing empires, the resistance has been killed and they probably have some weeks or months left under the cloister.

This is all he ever wanted. Now the goblins have their fair playing field and can make it work or not.

Redcloak may have actually achieved the goal he thinks he wants (goblin equality), but it's not the goal he/TDO have actually been working towards, so he doesn't think he has achieved the 'goblin equality' goal.

[Draconi Redfir]

it IS possible for the plan to go as intended and not have the world end. Perhaps the dark one doesn't intend on ever using the snarl and just wants it as an insurance plan incase the gods try to de-godify him or something.

Heck maybe right after the ritual is finished, Roy shows up and attacks Xykon, and Redcloak sees his chance to be rid of him, so he buffs up Roy and uses some positive energy spells on Xykon.

[Ancalagon]

What Redcloak wants and thinks and what is a good idea can often differ significantly.

We have no idea what the Dark One actually wants, but why should he not want as much as he can get? Sure, the nation he has now is great, but why not take The Snarl as well if it is within reach?

[King of Nowhere]

Also a good point. Frankly, I don't think Redcloak can win: he's not going to admit true goblin equality can be achieved through anything but the Plan (again, barring major character reversal), and the Plan is almost certainly not going to work.


I disagree with that: in start of darkness, he became convinced of exactly that, for a few minutes, and was forced on another path by greater forces than him. To be precise,
his brother managed to persuade him to stay in his little village and help building the local goblin community, having nopthing to do with humans. But Xykon then came, and Redcloak is not strong enough to stand up to him. Right-eye tried (I think that guy had a really bad wisdom score), and ended up dooming the village (ok, maybe it was doomed anyway, but just maybe




I really like Redcloak because while he is evil, he actually does care for his people and is fighting for a cause rather than personal power. Sadly, I don't see lasting goblin / human peace happening even if the Goblins do get equality though simply because a lot of the goblinoids are evil, and therefore a goblin nation will probably end up acting like most evil human nations do: raiding, starting wars, and generally walking around with a big "smite me" sign on their back. :smalltongue:
Actually, if we look at our past up to, say, 3 centuries ago (with many natons continuing way after that), it was how EVERY human nation behaved. Those that didn't conquer others were just too weak to do so. I don't see the goblins as being any different from humans on that. And their hate for humans is nothing different human nations haven't experienced towards each others at some point.
If we managed to get better, so can they

[Flame of Anor]

Redcloak would need another epiphany about humans and co. (like he did about Hobo's) before he would really want goodness, fairness and justice.

:biggrin:


Right now he is still fairly evil. Okay technically he is slightly less evil than say... the elves with there "only good goblin is a dead goblin".

I would dispute that. Redcloak is just as biased as the elves--could you imagine him ever approaching a paladin with an open mind? The elves and the goblins have both been brought up to hate the others, but besides that, what do we see them doing?

Goblins: declare war, invade city, massacre and enslave civilians
Elves: go to incredible personal risk to free someone else's city, ambush and kill enemy combatants

* * *

I think these more accurately summarize Redcloak's problem:


Redcloak doesn't want equality. He just wants to be the oppressor instead of the oppressed. We've seen one goblin in OOTS who wanted equality, and he's dead.


Redcloak suffers from a near pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy: he believes that once he has committed resources to something, he can't divert from his path or it would make those resources wasted.


Perhaps Redcloak will achieve a better, fairer status for goblinoids, but it will definitely involve MyGodWhatHaveIDone (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyGodWhatHaveIDone), followed closely by RedemptionEqualsDeath (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath).

[Dr.Epic]

Note that I do not say, "Could Team Evil Win?" Obviously, Xykon can't "win" as his idea of winning is world domination, and must be opposed at all costs.

Who says he doesn't win and take over the world? We can't know for certain. Did Rich share this information with you?

Also, I don't see how Red Cloak could win and there'd still be a happy ending. His idea of winning is conquering all other races. Not a lot room there for everyone else to be happy.

[hamishspence]

Who says he doesn't win and take over the world? We can't know for certain. Did Rich share this information with you?

We know a few things from War & XPs- that Elan will get a happy ending, and that OoTS will remain a comedy adventure.

A bit hard for this to happen if it ends with Xykon taking over the world.

[Flame of Anor]

Who says he doesn't win and take over the world? We can't know for certain. Did Rich share this information with you?


Yes, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

[TreesOfDeath]

I have a theory that Redcloak would turn on Xykon at the end, push him into the last gate or such, then get killed by the MITD or something like that, however in the process of redeeming himself, he'd make the gods take notice of what they've done (or Roy would talk to the gods) and they'd make sure the goblins would have a fairer deal afterwards. Which in a grim sense, is actually a win for Redcloak. Alternatively the world gets destroyed, and the gods make a point of not screwing goblins over next time, which again would be a win.

[Heksefatter]

Redcloak, as the person he currently is, cannot win and the story still have a happy ending.

I would not completely rule out that he might redeem himself and "win" a victory on a more moderate and less vindictive scale. My guess is not, though, as


he has already passed such a major chance at redemption as happened in SoD with him and Right-Eye.

[Fish]

It would be hilarious if Redcloak and Xykon get control of the Snarl, the Dark God shows up and
Xykon kills him.

[t209]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html
Don't worry I hope this comic will have good ending.Ironically, this strip is 500 strips before the downfall of Resistance

[VanBuren]

I don't there's a way out of this that leaves Redcloak alive. He's sacrificed too much and gone too far. I think he dies heroically to give the Order a chance at stopping Xykon and is remembered as a hero for both PC and monster races.

Then again, I thought similar things about Scar in FMA.

[ti'esar]

Then again, I thought similar things about Scar in FMA.

Meaning what, for the benefit of those who have no idea who he(?) is?

[t209]

Meaning what, for the benefit of those who have no idea who he(?) is?

He was
a survivor of Ishvalan Genocide and an alchemist (which is forbidden by his people) which he use the skill to avenge his people.

[TheBST]

I have a theory that Redcloak would turn on Xykon at the end, push him into the last gate or such, then get killed by the MITD or something like that, however in the process of redeeming himself, he'd make the gods take notice of what they've done (or Roy would talk to the gods) and they'd make sure the goblins would have a fairer deal afterwards. Which in a grim sense, is actually a win for Redcloak. Alternatively the world gets destroyed, and the gods make a point of not screwing goblins over next time, which again would be a win.

Slight problem with that- it makes our protagonists redundant. THey wouldn't even need to show up for that. Not gonna happen.

Redcloak's a bit like the hero of a greek tragedy: his God interferes with his life and his tragic flaw- this obsession with the plan- destroys everything he loves. Expect an ending for him fitting this mould.

[Adama]

Redcloak suffers from a near pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy: he believes that once he has committed resources to something, he can't divert from his path or it would make those resources wasted.

SoD spoilers
In particular, if Redcloak is under the belief that killing his own brother would have been utterly in vain if he ever diverts from Xykon's plans.

So, for Redcloak to have any hope of a happy ending, he would need to get over that particular psychological hangup.

Yeah, but in the context of succeeding with "The Plan." Suppose five minutes before they start the ritual to warp the gate, the Dark One sends him a vision saying "The other gods have just agreed to all the concessions we wanted for Goblin equality, on the condition that we don't destroy all of reality. Now, cast Implosion on the lich and let's clean up our loose ends so nobody vaporizes the planet." I think that if he "won" in that way, Redcloak would probably have few qualms about cutting his losses. The reason he's willing to go all in here is because he figures he has to go all the way to the end to make the plan work.

Looking at it from that perspective, it seems rather like an unnecessary game of chicken on the part of the elder gods: they could cut a deal with the Dark One right now that would remove Redcloak from play, along with whatever knowledge of the ritual to control the gates that he hasn't shared with Xykon. Which begs the question whether there's another reason that this hasn't happened, one we don't yet know, since three of five gates have now been destroyed, and there's an increasing risk of releasing the Snarl.


Who says he doesn't win and take over the world? We can't know for certain. Did Rich share this information with you?

:smallconfused:


Also, I don't see how Red Cloak could win and there'd still be a happy ending. His idea of winning is conquering all other races. Not a lot room there for everyone else to be happy.

No, it's not. He may be a speciesist, but that's not his goal. It's Xykon's goal which Redcloak hasn't exactly been fighting too hard against.

[Dark Matter]

He meant the Dark One... Redcloak's definition of "fair" isn't how most people would define the word. Redcloak doesn't see a problem with Goblins being evil, he just doesn't want them to be punished for being evil. Xykon wouldn't bother writing any laws or organizing anything, so Gobblotopia is RC's creation... and Redcloak is The Dark One's prophet, visionary, and point man.

TDO's/Redcloak's vision is that Goblins will be free to be as evil as they wish without Paladins or others "unfairly" stopping them.

The Dark One is a Lawful Evil God of Destruction. He seems only interested in "negotiation" when he has a gun to everyone else's head. That was true when he had a "best in history" unstoppable genocidal army backing him up and it's true now when he wants the unstoppable genocidal god killing abomination. Or in short, I see no evidence or even suggestion of evidence that godhood changed his personality or tactics. He brought Law to his people, not Good.

[VanBuren]

Meaning what, for the benefit of those who have no idea who he(?) is?

Basically he was the survivor of a genocide whose arm lets him use alchemy to destroy whatever he touches--and is actually his brother's. At the beginning of the series, his family is dead and he goes around killing alchemists as revenge for said genocide. He killed the parents of the hero's love interest in a blind rage after waking up and realizing everyone had died, and even when he turned to the side of the heroes it was heavily implied that he couldn't be forgiven for everything he had done and a lot of people thought that he would end up dead in a heroic sacrifice.

He ends up basically becoming a priest helping reform the religion of his people as well as work to mend the hostilities between them and the other major ethnic group.

[ti'esar]

Looking at it from that perspective, it seems rather like an unnecessary game of chicken on the part of the elder gods: they could cut a deal with the Dark One right now that would remove Redcloak from play, along with whatever knowledge of the ritual to control the gates that he hasn't shared with Xykon. Which begs the question whether there's another reason that this hasn't happened, one we don't yet know, since three of five gates have now been destroyed, and there's an increasing risk of releasing the Snarl.

As I've said in a couple of places, I personally think that reason is that there's something bogus about the entire "goblins were created as XP fodder" story. Hard to back down on something that doesn't exist in the first place.

[whitelaughter]

Indeed. In fact I think a much better outcome would be Righteye winning.
Yes. He was a hero - Redcloak is just the catspaw of more powerful evil beings.

[Omergideon]

Recloak is a wonderfully 3 dimensional and tragic villain. He has a number of posistive traits that could have led him onto a path of heroism. He truly cares about the Goblin nations and has put effort into helping set them up against the will of Xykon at great risk. But he instead CHOSE to follow the more evil path. Along the way he has become hardened and more desperate in his actions while also being more fleshed out in regards to his motivations and needs.

But he is still a villain.

As he is, a man with a grudge, a hideous sunken costs problem and a petty streak of cruelty that allows him to act evil when he need not do so I do not see him "winning" like that. But with some character development he may move slightly more towards the good side (or at least more Anti-Xykon) and realise that if he stops killing humans for being human then His team has alreasy won.

[Ingus]

Uhm... first of all, I finally had my hands on SoD (best comic read in 2011/2012) and now I see better.

I think Readcloack will end very badly, for a number of reasons

Basicly, he's working with someone way stronger than him, smarter and more manipulative than him (as the end of SoD shows) and with a goal largely incompatible with his.
Besides, I can imagine Xykon screen on Readcloack and RightEye when he got to bathroom and those two discuss the Plan in the cafeteria
Moreover, the "equal opportunity ground" think is what The Dark One says he want to achieve, not what we know he really want.
Basicly, this seems the same pattern in Llolth's religion: "Corellon went out with some other Seldarine chick and all the drows were exiled. You, treacherous Elven Gods" (and stuff).
So it is very likely that the poor Redcloack is manipulated by both his "teammate" and his God. After all he has given to the Plan, I can't see any good coming from this.

My "I, I, I too want to join mass guessing" shot would have been Readcloack will die (at the end, we don't know his name) and all in vain.
But all the Snarl story seems not to be quite as they told us (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), so anything is possible.


Besides, I'm a big fan of the MitD, so I'm really interested in his role in all this.

[LtNOWIS]

Redcloak has already achieved the objective of giving the Goblins a fair playing field: They have former Azure City and the fertile Blue River Valley. 17 nations across the World, including Cliffport, have recognized the Goblin State.

This is a world full of crappy tin-pot regimes of questionable legitimacy. But yeah, Cliffport is a big deal.

[BloodSquirrel]

But is it so unimaginable that Redcloak could "win"? All he really wants is a fair playing field for goblinoid races.

Redcloak's idea of "fair" is like a 3-year olds. You've got something he wants, so it's fair for him to take it from you. If you don't agree, then it's okay for him to kill you. If you do, well, you should be his slave anyway.

Thing is, for all of the talk about the injustices that the goblinoids have faced, their actions have consistently shown that they kind of deserve it. There's this double standard where people expect the "good" races to do all of the work to make peace between them and the "evil" races and offer them all sorts of concessions, while not caring that the "evil" races make no efforts whatsoever to bury the hatchet.

We've seen no evidence that the Goblinoids *want* peace. We have seen them say "Hey, any leader who lets us crush a city under our heals is good with me!"

[androkguz]

Redcloak's idea of "fair" is like a 3-year olds. You've got something he wants, so it's fair for him to take it from you. If you don't agree, then it's okay for him to kill you. If you do, well, you should be his slave anyway.

Thing is, for all of the talk about the injustices that the goblinoids have faced, their actions have consistently shown that they kind of deserve it. There's this double standard where people expect the "good" races to do all of the work to make peace between them and the "evil" races and offer them all sorts of concessions, while not caring that the "evil" races make no efforts whatsoever to bury the hatchet.

We've seen no evidence that the Goblinoids *want* peace. We have seen them say "Hey, any leader who lets us crush a city under our heals is good with me!"

And would you expect that from them? I mean, according to Start of Darkness, goblinoids and similar races where given all the terrible lands and natural riches of the world so they were pretty much forced to be scavengers and thieves.

What would a reasonably good race do if they first lived in the circumstances they did and then conquered a human city? Free the humans? Yeah right, like their history hasn't told them what happens when you expect your enemies to give ground peacefully.
Hell, we even see that Redcloak having mercy of the souls of a couple humans is seen by them as weakness.

For all we know, no one would have listened to The Dark One's alleged equally plan if he was backed up by a giant army. Actually, even with the army, the humans would not let them anything (and as we know, would instead stab him in the back, literally)

I don't think that goblinoids have a real shot as a community to grow and be prosperous if they can't back that up with a threat powerful enought that other races can't wipe them at will.

That, of course, is the colectivist's view of things. If someone was to care about the goblinoids as individuals that want a better life rather than a race that wants to have the same level ground as the other race then simply helping little villages like the one at the end of SoD would be the way to go.

[Kish]

There's this double standard where people expect the "good" races to do all of the work to make peace between them and the "evil" races and offer them all sorts of concessions, while not caring that the "evil" races make no efforts whatsoever to bury the hatchet.

We've seen no evidence that the Goblinoids *want* peace.

As far as "in the comic, not counting Start of Darkness" goes, you're technically correct.

However, your talking about a double standard is ironic. You're talking about the goblinoids not wanting peace when we have seen no evidence that anyone wants peace in the online comic.

[King of Nowhere]

There's this double standard where people expect the "good" races to do all of the work to make peace between them and the "evil" races and offer them all sorts of concessions, while not caring that the "evil" races make no efforts whatsoever to bury the hatchet.

We've seen no evidence that the Goblinoids *want* peace. We have seen them say "Hey, any leader who lets us crush a city under our heals is good with me!"
If the good guys didn't try to make peace first, how would they be different from the bad guys? Being good requires that you make some sacrifice and some concession. Everyone can be good as long as it is also in their best interest.
As far as I saw in the comic, the goblins kill humans because they're humans, and the humans kill the goblins for the same reason. If redcloak was a human leader, he would be a hero, and if he said "let's kill all the goblins" very few people would object. Damn, he didn't even threw the human prisoners in the rift like he threatened. Rich himself says that "for all his deeds, he can't bring himself to banish a bunch of human slaves when it wouldn't even serve his cause". How many humans would have hesitated in throwing goblins in the rift? How many would have called it a befitting fate for them?
I really can't see the humans as the good guys and the goblins as the bad guys, because humans and goblins are behaving towards each other exactly the same. Of course there are many good humans we got to meet in the comic, but there's probably a lot of good goblins in the army too. We didn't saw many becuase we didn't saw that many goblins in the first place. And the most evil people we saw in the comic were not goblins. Xykon, Nale, Tarquin, Tsukiko, Kubota, all them are humans. I didn't saw more goodness among humans than among goblins.

Back on topic, Could Redcloak win, and the story still have a happy endiing?
Depends on what redcloak would call a win.
If he managed to capture a gate, then the humans would be enslaved, unless major character development from redcloak, or unless the dark one is a much better guy than we give him credit.
If Xykon was destroyed and the goblins managed to reach some comfortable agreement with the humans, I would call it a happy ending. Would redcloak call it a happy ending? I think so; the goblins would be in a far better position than when they started, so redcloak would probably be satisfied.

[Flame of Anor]

If redcloak was a human leader, he would be a hero, and if he said "let's kill all the goblins" very few people would object.

Very few? I take it you haven't noticed the rabid hate that Team Peregrine has been getting.


Damn, he didn't even threw the human prisoners in the rift like he threatened. Rich himself says that "for all his deeds, he can't bring himself to banish a bunch of human slaves when it wouldn't even serve his cause". How many humans would have hesitated in throwing goblins in the rift?

Well, let's see...definitely Roy, Elan, Hinjo, and O-Chul, plus probably Haley, Shojo, Thanh, and Lien. Not Miko, though, natch.

[Omniplex]

I think that in the end, Redcloak, or perhaps the Dark One, will realize that their goal of goblin equality has been accomplished in the nation of Gobbotopia without needing to resort to black mailing the gods or destroying the world. As such, Redcloak will, rather than let his proud nation be destroyed, sacrifice himself heroically to close the gates, or defeat the Snarl or Xykon, or something. Well, that's the optimistic viewpoint.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Red cloak will sacrifice himself for the goblin fairness.

[Reluctance]

[spoiler]The RC/Tsukiko rivalry is heating up. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if she became a wild card, with both sides trying to court so they don't have to work around the other. She might even decide that, as a theurge, she can go ahead and pull off the full ritual by herself.

My long shot theory is MitD showing both brains and magical prowess at full strength at this point and pulling off the theory himself. And then showing some sort of connection to the Snarl/Snarlworld. Again, though, that's my long-shot theory on just when this Chekhov's Gun goes off.

As for RC, I don't think Rich has goblin genocide in the cards anytime soon. It goes against everything he's written. So on that front, Gobbotopia is a long-game win already. His other win conditions now are far less conducive to happy endings.