DM RAAAGE! (a nerf bat to the knee)

[zarg43]

so due to a long course of events and a few too many multi-summon Eagles in our pathfinder he made a whole new rule that says no birds and no multi summon. Me being a summoner whined like a baby for a while, then I said WWGITPD! (what would giant in the playground do!)

So my question is what is a single summon monster for every according level of the spell that is worth a look. Also what is one way besides Augmented Summoning to beef up summons so they can eat more things :D

TL;DR: what is the best summons and or feats to go with it?

[Keneth]

Just out of curiosity - why eagles? And why is it a problem? There's plenty of ways to deal with summons. :smallconfused:

[zarg43]

My DM instead of saying let me find a way to deal with it just said
you find a way to deal with it XD

[Ziegander]

Yeah, but what the hell were you doing with multi-summoned Eagles that was so abusive that the DM banned all birds of all things, and then also banned multi-summons?

[panaikhan]

It does depend on what your alignment is.
I'm away from my books, so I can't give specifics, but:
I've either gone with outsiders or elementals (my summoner is evil).

Always look for hit dice. A celestial or Infernal summoned creature has abilities keyed off them. And never forget Smite (it works way differently in PF than 3.5).
One hit that does lots of damage, is better than lots of misses.

[Helldog]

My DM instead of saying let me find a way to deal with it just said
you find a way to deal with it XD
I don't understand what you're saying. Is this a joke thread? :smallannoyed:

[zarg43]

Yeah, but what the hell were you doing with multi-summoned Eagles that was so abusive that the DM banned all birds of all things, and then also banned multi-summons?


well the thing that really set off my DM was when I killed his CR I think 5 whelp of a dragon in about 2 turns. He spent more time making the dam thing XD


It does depend on what your alignment is.
I'm away from my books, so I can't give specifics, but:
I've either gone with outsiders or elementals (my summoner is evil).

Always look for hit dice. A celestial or Infernal summoned creature has abilities keyed off them. And never forget Smite (it works way differently in PF than 3.5).
One hit that does lots of damage, is better than lots of misses.

and thanks for the idea :D


I don't understand what you're saying. Is this a joke thread? :smallannoyed:

not a joke, this really happened and I'm really looking for a alternative good sir ^^

[Killer Angel]

so due to a long course of events and a few too many multi-summon Eagles in our pathfinder he made a whole new rule that says no birds and no multi summon. Me being a summoner whined like a baby for a while, then I said WWGITPD! (what would giant in the playground do!)


Leaving aside other questions, what do you mean by "no multi summon"?
If you're using the summoner's SLA of the various summon monsters, you can have only one active at any time.
And using spells, you'll run short of them very quickly.

[CTrees]

I used to optimize like you, but then I took a nerf bat to the knee.

*ducks*

Sorry guys, I had to! Massively failed the will save.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On topic, are you using PF sources only? What were you doing with eagles that made your DM ban all birds? What does he feel about the Fly spell?

Augment Summoning, certain druid archetypes, and simple buffs are some of the easiest ways in PF to buff your summons, but there are A LOT more, good options if you can pull in 3.5 material. PF only, though... Superior Summoning is useless if multi-summoning is banned, and most of the other feats aren't really worth it (Moonlight Summoning, Nimble Natural Summoning, etc.)

EDIT:
well the thing that really set off my DM was when I killed his CR I think 5 whelp of a dragon in about 2 turns. He spent more time making the dam thing XD

Huh. So... what level are you playing at? If you had a barbarian that got a crit with a greatsword while using power attack and rage, and one hit the same creature, would part of THAT build be banned?

[panaikhan]

Just came to mind:
No birds? Giant Wasp. Flying AND poison.
For SM4, giant scorpion is good. enough HD to get damage reduction from the alignment template.

[zarg43]

Leaving aside other questions, what do you mean by "no multi summon"?
If you're using the summoner's SLA of the various summon monsters, you can have only one active at any time.
And using spells, you'll run short of them very quickly.

Well I originally was using summon monster II to get out 1D3+1 eagles each augmented and swing 3 times a turn. The amount of summon monsters you can use is like 3 + cha modifier so for my character that means 7 summons a day.


Just came to mind:
No birds? Giant Wasp. Flying AND poison.
For SM4, giant scorpion is good. enough HD to get damage reduction from the alignment template.

thanks I'll look at them ^^

[Keneth]

well the thing that really set off my DM was when I killed his CR I think 5 whelp of a dragon in about 2 turns. He spent more time making the dam thing XDAt what level? Also (young) dragons are ridiculously easy to kill, he obviously didn't think things through. Our party consistently defeats challenges 4 CR higher than our level.

[zarg43]

At what level? Also (young) dragons are ridiculously easy to kill, he obviously didn't think things through. Our party consistently defeats challenges 4 CR higher than our level.

I think we where all like level very very late level 2 or really really early level 3.

also in till now, we have had very little gold amongst us and not a single magic item.


I used to optimize like you, but then I took a nerf bat to the knee.

*ducks*

Sorry guys, I had to! Massively failed the will save.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On topic, are you using PF sources only? What were you doing with eagles that made your DM ban all birds? What does he feel about the Fly spell?

Augment Summoning, certain druid archetypes, and simple buffs are some of the easiest ways in PF to buff your summons, but there are A LOT more, good options if you can pull in 3.5 material. PF only, though... Superior Summoning is useless if multi-summoning is banned, and most of the other feats aren't really worth it (Moonlight Summoning, Nimble Natural Summoning, etc.)

EDIT:

Huh. So... what level are you playing at? If you had a barbarian that got a crit with a greatsword while using power attack and rage, and one hit the same creature, would part of THAT build be banned?

Well we do have a barbarian, but I've had the most PC playtime amongst the group. So I, by comparison over-optimize to my group. Our group is a barbarian (don't know the race), a half elf Summoner (me :D), half elf rouge (more diplomatic then a trap monkey), and a half elf gunslinger (glass cannon all the way).

[Keneth]

I'm guessing lvl3 if you used summon monster II, which doesn't even make it an epic challenge. Hardly grounds for nerfing summons.

That's not to say that summoners aren't stupid powerful but they're manageable.

[Ziegander]

So... you're level 3+, you have Augmented Summoning, presumably as your only summons-boosting feat, and you like to summon 1d3+1 eagles with Summon Monster II... and your DM thinks this is WTFbroken. Does that correctly sum up this thread?

If so, I'm pretty sure you're better off taking the nerf and loving it, or quitting the game. Using Giant Wasp(s) instead of eagles and taking more feats to make your summons stronger will only make your DM rage harder and nerf you more severely.

EDIT: I am sorry you've been put in this situation, by the way. So, so lame.

[Killer Angel]

Well I originally was using summon monster II to get out 1D3+1 eagles each augmented and swing 3 times a turn. The amount of summon monsters you can use is like 3 + cha modifier so for my character that means 7 summons a day.

That's true, you can spam summons a lot, but still you'll have ONE active at any time (and that, or the Eidolon).
I'm really failing to see your DM's problem... summon as a machinegun is one of the two basic tactic for a summoner. Maybe its problem is with the class?

edit: I fear your DM's reaction if, at fourth level, you'll have an enlarged Eidolon, with extended reach and improved trip...

[zarg43]

That's true, you can spam summons a lot, but still you'll have ONE active at any time (and that, or the Eidolon).
I'm really failing to see your DM's problem... summon as a machinegun is one of the two basic tactic for a summoner. Maybe its problem is with the class?

edit: I fear your DM's reaction if, at fourth level, you'll have an enlarged Eidolon, with extended reach and improved trip...

after I said the summoner was kind of a "one trick pony" he then went on to say, "You decided to play a support mage, so I don't think you should nuke with your summons. There is no if's and's or but's."
then after a hour of whining, (not in game but just talking) and bringing up portions of the book, he then just said "my campaign my rules." which is totally right, but I'm kinda stumped as a good deal of the nice evolutions require levels, there is a hard cap on natural attacks, and I only get up to 6th level spells. So just looking at the options is all ^^

[Helldog]

The DM doesn't want a Summoner in his game (that's what I understood from your above post, your writing is very unclear). Deal with it.
Instead take the Wizard. It can do whatever the Summoner can, but probably with a little more trouble, and additionally he can do many other things.

[zarg43]

The DM doesn't want a Summoner in his game (that's what I understood from your above post, your writing is very unclear). Deal with it.

:( sorry my writing does suck, and you may be right :/

[Helldog]

Instead take the Wizard. It can do whatever the Summoner can, but probably with a little more trouble, and additionally he can do many other things.

[Keneth]

There's no point in playing a summoner if you're not allowed to deal damage with your summons, it's like banning slashing weapons for a fighter. Meatshields are fine but they don't really work in a game where enemies are smart enough to just attack you instead. The GM is clearly unreasonable and I imagine this is likely not the last nerf he'll impose on the players if this one goes unchecked.

Personally I'd either reroll or quit, it's his job to make things challenging for the group, changing the rules because he didn't anticipate the strength of your very core ability is unfair and spiteful.

[Killer Angel]

after I said the summoner was kind of a "one trick pony" he then went on to say, "You decided to play a support mage, so I don't think you should nuke with your summons. There is no if's and's or but's."
then after a hour of whining, (not in game but just talking) and bringing up portions of the book, he then just said "my campaign my rules." which is totally right, but I'm kinda stumped as a good deal of the nice evolutions require levels, there is a hard cap on natural attacks, and I only get up to 6th level spells. So just looking at the options is all ^^

At least, tell him that the summoner gives support with its summons, 'cause the number of spells that you can cast is pityful.
Anyway, you're an half-elf. A favoured class alternative is to add +1/4 evolution points to the Eidolon. At fourth level, you'll have an additional evolution point for your eidolon.
Play on that, then pick spells like enlarge person, haste and evolution surge. buff your teammates and your advanced Eidolon, stay out of melee, profit.


The DM doesn't want a Summoner in his game

Sadly, i fear this sums it up. And a strong Eidolon is so much more efficient than some summon, so the "problem" will rise again.



Personally I'd either reroll or quit, it's his job to make things challenging for the group, changing the rules because he didn't anticipate the strength of your very core ability is unfair and spiteful.

What? a Summoner that summons?!? I didn't expect it... that's madness!!! :smalltongue:

[CTrees]

he then went on to say, "You decided to play a support mage, so I don't think you should nuke with your summons. There is no if's and's or but's."
then after a hour of whining, (not in game but just talking) and bringing up portions of the book, he then just said "my campaign my rules."

If you've relayed this accurately, it's just straight bad DMing. Part of the DM's job is to ensure everyone has fun. Look at any number of "bad DM" threads, you'll see this sort of behavior come up all the time. This seems to be a subset of the "you went off my carefully planned script, this wasn't supposed to happen like that, nerf!" A DM's job is not to tell a player how his character should be played, though modifying/banning/otherwise houseruling specific things can be okay. When it's not good is as a temper tantrum response to a legitimate tactic, using a class' published abilities in an obvious, non-overpowered manner.


which is totally right

Nooooooooooooooooo...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unlike others here, I won't say "run now!" but I will say... this wasn't a good move on the DM's part. My reaction in these situations has been to go to a truly support role, playing something like a buff-focused wizard, bringing the entire party's power level up evenly (and you know what? doing that nearly got the paladin's Smite, of all things, nerf-batted. but at least it wasn't hitting me).

[zarg43]

There's no point in playing a summoner if you're not allowed to deal damage with your summons, it's like banning slashing weapons for a fighter. Meatshields are fine but they don't really work in a game where enemies are smart enough to just attack you instead. The GM is clearly unreasonable and I imagine this is likely not the last nerf he'll impose on the players if this one goes unchecked.

Personally I'd either reroll or quit, it's his job to make things challenging for the group, changing the rules because he didn't anticipate the strength of your very core ability is unfair and spiteful.

thanks, your words do bring comfort. Glad to know I'm not the only one feeling this way XP


If you've relayed this accurately, it's just straight bad DMing. Part of the DM's job is to ensure everyone has fun. Look at any number of "bad DM" threads, you'll see this sort of behavior come up all the time. This seems to be a subset of the "you went off my carefully planned script, this wasn't supposed to happen like that, nerf!" A DM's job is not to tell a player how his character should be played, though modifying/banning/otherwise houseruling specific things can be okay. When it's not good is as a temper tantrum response to a legitimate tactic, using a class' published abilities in an obvious, non-overpowered manner.



Nooooooooooooooooo...

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unlike others here, I won't say "run now!" but I will say... this wasn't a good move on the DM's part. My reaction in these situations has been to go to a truly support role, playing something like a buff-focused wizard, bringing the entire party's power level up evenly (and you know what? doing that nearly got the paladin's Smite, of all things, nerf-batted. but at least it wasn't hitting me).

I think he just feels like I'm over-optimizing for a relatively low optimized group and I can see how If a summoner is doing most of the damage other then the barbarian how he feels. I don't want to quit, that would only ruin every one else's fun. If I make this a HUGE deal I could see the group just ending :/

[Ziegander]

Here's what you should have said, "No, I decided to play a SUMMONER. You know, a class that SUMMONS creatures and then uses those SUMMONS to do whatever I want with them. If I can't summon creatures to fight for me when I'm playing a SUMMONER, then I'm quitting."

And of course he'd probably just say, "Fine." But, hey, he doesn't want you to have fun by doing the one thing your class is built to do, so you aren't going to have fun. Quitting is really your only option.

[zarg43]

Here's what you should have said, "No, I decided to play a SUMMONER. You know, a class that SUMMONS creatures and then uses those SUMMONS to do whatever I want with them. If I can't summon creatures to fight for me when I'm playing a SUMMONER, then I'm quitting."

And of course he'd probably just say, "Fine." But, hey, he doesn't want you to have fun by doing the one thing your class is built to do, so you aren't going to have fun. Quitting is really your only option.

he would not take to that very well XD

I've also COMPLAINED A LOT. That is not a dramatization, I whine about EVERYTHING. (one of my many vices X.X)

[Ur-Quan]

And this thread is full of "special butterflies". Respect your DM, zarg, see if you can handle summoning in lesser quantities and look at the alternatives. I can understand the DM and the DM is right here. A single summoner taking table time equal to the rest of the party is silly and fun-destroying, for everyone. I think he's reining you in to one monster per summon just for that exact reason. How would you feel as a DM that has a summoner doing 5 actions himself while the other 3 players do one each.

The argument people, the folks who advise you to quit the game and the others are just "entitled" folk who want it to be their way and play competitively against the DM, which is a wrong stand to take. You can break the game with a Summoner, doesn't mean you should. Try to negotiate with the DM and keep in the power-level of the group.

Most important of all, keep your head cool and don't argue or cause drama on the table. If you'd like your character steamrolling all the challenges and leaving the other players feeling incompetent and down, rather quit it yourself, rather than make the DM expel you.

[Keneth]

How would you feel as a DM that has a summoner doing 5 actions himself while the other 3 players do one each. Druid says hi. Seriously though, an experienced player should have no trouble rolling those attacks fast enough not to destroy the game dynamics. I've seen enough minion master characters to know that this is not a valid excuse unless the player can't handle the extra load.


You can break the game with a Summoner, doesn't mean you should. Using his core ability to summon a few birds is not the same as breaking the game. If that's all it took to blow through the encounter, then the encounter was obviously poorly designed.

I generally agree that arguing with the GM is counterproductive but in cases such as this, the GM needs to have some sense knocked into them.

[Ziegander]

The argument people, the folks who advise you to quit the game and the others are just "entitled" folk who want it to be their way and play competitively against the DM, which is a wrong stand to take. You can break the game with a Summoner, doesn't mean you should. Try to negotiate with the DM and keep in the power-level of the group.

No, I'm telling him to quit the game, because the alternative is to let the DM tell him what sort of character he should play and that he should like it. The OP wanted to play a Summoner. The DM allowed him to play the Summoner, but then, when he started summoning stuff, the DM nerfed him and told him to play a support character. THAT'S BULL****.

[Ur-Quan]

The DM didn't make him unable to summon stuff. The DM made him unable to summon more than one creature per summon. That's an important detail. The DM designs the game and players play under the DM's rules, not the book rules. Any player who feels otherwise has learned otherwise and will make a majority of real DM's kick him out of their game. Dungeon Master decides the rules, then the books fill in the gaps, that's how it works, or at least, how it should work if your DM isn't a doormat.

[Killer Angel]

If you'd like your character steamrolling all the challenges and leaving the other players feeling incompetent and down, rather quit it yourself, rather than make the DM expel you.

Are you seriously arguing that a Summoner and a a bunch of eagles "steamroll the challenges"?



The DM didn't make him unable to summon stuff. The DM made him unable to summon more than one creature per summon. That's an important detail.
:smallconfused:
Are you sure about that? 'cos I read this:

he then went on to say, "You decided to play a support mage, so I don't think you should nuke with your summons. There is no if's and's or but's."


But let's say it's true. Only one creature summoned.
When the DM will realize that a single small elemental is so much stronger than a couple of eagle, what the next nerf will be?

[DoctorGlock]

The DM didn't make him unable to summon stuff. The DM made him unable to summon more than one creature per summon. That's an important detail. The DM designs the game and players play under the DM's rules, not the book rules. Any player who feels otherwise has learned otherwise and will make a majority of real DM's kick him out of their game. Dungeon Master decides the rules, then the books fill in the gaps, that's how it works, or at least, how it should work if your DM isn't a doormat.

Doormat versus Authoritarian Clod are not the only options. A class ability should function as printed unless agreed upon by all parties prior to a class being chosen. That's called being fair, not a doormat. There is no massive cheese involved, just a class ability. "Dear leader" type DMs do not make the majority and generally ruin fun for everyone which appears to be what is happening here.

[Ziegander]

The DM didn't make him unable to summon stuff. The DM made him unable to summon more than one creature per summon. That's an important detail. The DM designs the game and players play under the DM's rules, not the book rules. Any player who feels otherwise has learned otherwise and will make a majority of real DM's kick him out of their game. Dungeon Master decides the rules, then the books fill in the gaps, that's how it works, or at least, how it should work if your DM isn't a doormat.

When did I say I suggested he should quit the game, because the DM told him he can't summon things? You're sidestepping my point, here. Which is:


The OP wanted to play a Summoner. The DM allowed him to play the Summoner, but then, when he started summoning stuff, the DM nerfed him and told him to play a support character. THAT'S BULL****.

If I tell the DM I want to play a certain type of character and he says that's okay, but then, when I do exactly the thing that that type of character does, something as natural as a Fighter power attacking with a greatsword, the DM nerfs me, then that is bull****.

The DM banned all birds for crying out loud. Not just multi-summoning. He told him to play a support character or go home, maybe not in so many words, but that's the gist of it. You really think that if the OP sticks to summoning a single, powerful creature and stacking more summon-boosting feats onto that will go over well for the OP?

[Helldog]

The argument people, the folks who advise you to quit the game and the others are just "entitled" folk who want it to be their way and play competitively against the DM
Take that back.

[Ur-Quan]

Are you seriously arguing that a Summoner and a a bunch of eagles "steamroll the challenges"?



:smallconfused:
Are you sure about that? 'cos I read this:


But let's say it's true. Only one creature summoned.
When the DM will realize that a single small elemental is so much stronger than a couple of eagle, what the next nerf will be?

From the opening post:

made a whole new rule that says no birds and no multi summon.

Doormat versus Authoritarian Clod are not the only options. A class ability should function as printed unless agreed upon by all parties prior to a class being chosen. That's called being fair, not a doormat. There is no massive cheese involved, just a class ability. "Dear leader" type DMs do not make the majority and generally ruin fun for everyone which appears to be what is happening here.

I don't know who his DM is or what is his style, but I'm presuming he's rooting for the overall betterment of the game here and not his own pride.

If you have a good DM, key word being "good" here, he'll do right that and make a compromise. That same DM might decide to not do a compromise and he's totally in the right there.

I did take the DM's side here, if only because everyone presumed a "my own little fantasy on rails" DM. It just seems like the DM got sick of a player trying to optimize, break the game and be too competitive and obnoxious overall. Read up, this is a beginner-level game, and such players are just annoying in those, for everyone.

[Helldog]

I don't know who his DM is or what is his style, but I'm presuming he's rooting for the overall betterment of the game here and not his own pride.
Then better read the thread again, 'cause that's not the case here.


It just seems like the DM got sick of a player trying to optimize, break the game and be too competitive and obnoxious overall.
Funny how you scoff at us for assuming things about the DM, but you yourself go and assume the worst about the player. :smallsigh:


Read up, this is a beginner-level game, and such players are just annoying in those, for everyone.
And a DM that nerfs things because he can't deal with them is as much annoying.

[DoctorGlock]

It just seems like the DM got sick of a player trying to optimize, break the game and be too competitive and obnoxious overall. Read up, this is a beginner-level game, and such players are just annoying in those, for everyone.

He summoned a pack of birds. How is this an attempt to break the game? Birds are not particularly strong which is why I am a bit confused about how they trivialized an encounter. The player has shown regret that the encounter was trivialized however and it seems a bit off to say that he is a dirty little munchkin when it really comes down to poor design.

[legomaster00156]

From the opening post:



I don't know who his DM is or what is his style, but I'm presuming he's rooting for the overall betterment of the game here and not his own pride.

If you have a good DM, key word being "good" here, he'll do right that and make a compromise. That same DM might decide to not do a compromise and he's totally in the right there.

I did take the DM's side here, if only because everyone presumed a "my own little fantasy on rails" DM. It just seems like the DM got sick of a player trying to optimize, break the game and be too competitive and obnoxious overall. Read up, this is a beginner-level game, and such players are just annoying in those, for everyone.
1. He banned a feature because it was used to defeat an already weak encounter more quickly.
2. Hee is NOT attempting a compromise.
3. Augment Summoning is less "optimization", and more "Summoners need this".

[Killer Angel]

It just seems like the DM got sick of a player trying to optimize, break the game and be too competitive

When exactly the OP did those things?
I'm sincerely curious, 'cause a summoner that summons is simply using the weaker of its main class features, and lots of little creatures (barring particular circumstances) are certainly less effective than bigger summons.

[Techsmart]

My opinion would be to ask the dm if you can reroll (same XP and everything). If he says fine, just reroll and go with it. If he asks why just tell him that he isn't allowing your character to do what he is built to do. If he says you can reroll at an XP loss, I would take that just like saying no, but if you really want the group to stay together, take the loss, you will catch up quickly. If he flat out says "no, take the nerfs and deal with it." I would say that would be the point of walking. It's a game. If you arent having fun, then you shouldn't be playing. just leave everyone on a 'fairly' good note. No fits or anything, just say "I don't really want to play right now, since I am not having fun. I may play again later, but for the time being, I'm going to just have to step out."

[Tyndmyr]

"You decided to play a support mage, so I don't think you should nuke with your summons. There is no if's and's or but's."
then after a hour of whining, (not in game but just talking) and bringing up portions of the book, he then just said "my campaign my rules." which is totally right...

Why is that right?

Say "my char, my rules". Is that any more right? No, no, he changed the rules mid campaign. That's a bit unfair, and you deserve the ability to rework your char if your concept no longer functions as a result.

[onemorelurker]

As other people have said, only summoning one creature will almost definitely not solve the DM's problem with summoning being (supposedly) OP, since summoning one big creature is generally a stronger option than summoning several little creatures.

What I think you should do is sit down with your DM and ask (politely and without whining) what he envisions a summoner's role to be in a party. If that doesn't jive with your vision, try to come to some compromise or at least agree that you'll be playing your summoner according to one of the two visions. If you can't come to any agreement that would still make a summoner fun to play for you and not cause your DM too much of a headache, then I'm with Techsmart that you should ask to make a new character, making sure you clearly define what role you intend to fill with it.

[Slipperychicken]

COMPLAINED A LOT. I whine about EVERYTHING.

Here we go. When something bothers you, briefly bring the point up, then drop it for after the session. DMs tend to be more reasonable when you aren't interrupting the session (and, to some, challenging their authority). Pushing the point mid-session makes people angry and locks them in. Not to mention that it wastes everyone else's time.

[Snowbluff]

I used to optimize like you, but then I took a nerf bat to the knee.

*ducks*

Sorry guys, I had to! Massively failed the will save.



./cast True Strike.

/throws an xbox at you.


Anyway, my suggestion is too summon one really big thing. :smalltongue:
Combat will go much more quickly that way, and you DM probably won't get so pissed.

To bad you're not a Sorcerer. I had a Giant Frog, Toppling Spell Magic Missile, Web, Grease, Entangle, Mirror Image, some illusions. Man, I had fun...

[HailDiscordia]

I don't think that anyone here really feels like 1d3+1 eagles are some sort of overpowered ruiners of the game, but it's something that the DM can't handle. For whatever reasons, so you should just let it go for the benefit of the game as a whole. I know that sometimes as a DM, hordes of small summoned creatures are just an annoying pain. They slow the game down, people lose interest while you are figuring out all of the attacks,ultimately it feels like one player has all this power, etc...

You (OP) had mentioned that you are really the only optimizer in the party, so for the other players and DM it may just be a drag to have you pull out all of this stuff. I don't know anything about the DM (as far as experience, knowledge, etc...) but you should just respect that he asked you to not do it. DM can be hard work and you should cut him a break. And as far as "I'm the DM, it's my rules", well yeah. It does sort of work that way. As long as the DM is not some sort of abusive dictator that is generally the accepted way that actual gaming with actual people works.

The DM certainly should have made this clear during character creation, but maybe he didn't know it would be this way. Remember, D&D is a group activity and there are 5 (?) of you, so in the best interest of just keeping things moving and allowing the game to be fun, quit the eagles.

[Dayzgone]

Eagles… Over powered?...... at lvl 3? That just…. no…. how?

Well I don’t play PF very much so I’m not the authority on this, but I cant see any good reason for the DM to do what he did. I do agree that u need to respect his rules, but only if he respects them in turn. If you like playing a summoner then keep playing, and just do as he says. But if he uses flying monsters or a flying spell or anything of the sort, then u get up and walk away.

Besides one higher lvl summon, is almost always better then several lower lvl ones. If he honestly believes that he nerfed u. Then he is just not a very good DM.

[zarg43]

yeah :/
well I guess I'm going to use lightning elementals for tripping now

[navar100]

after I said the summoner was kind of a "one trick pony" he then went on to say, "You decided to play a support mage, so I don't think you should nuke with your summons. There is no if's and's or but's."
then after a hour of whining, (not in game but just talking) and bringing up portions of the book, he then just said "my campaign my rules." which is totally right, but I'm kinda stumped as a good deal of the nice evolutions require levels, there is a hard cap on natural attacks, and I only get up to 6th level spells. So just looking at the options is all ^^

What the DM says goes. If he says enough stupid stuff, the players go too.

[DoctorGlock]

What the DM says goes. If he says enough stupid stuff, the players go too.

That's a good maxim, I like it.

[Phaederkiel]

here is a compromise:

what offended yor dm is obviously either augmented summoning applying to all three eagles, or the eagles ability to fly.

I would offer to apply the Benefits of augmented summoning only to one creature at a time. Which makes casting hordes possible, but economically irrelevant.

That´s what you have to suck up. What your dm (in my opinion) has to suck up, is that you can summon beasts that fly and cover a lot of ground.



If he doesn´t want, you either reroll (and ask him specifically WHAT he allows), or you go. Do not whine, noone likes a whiner...:smallwink:

Have you considered that your obviously considerable whining hardened your dm's unreasonable resolve?

[panaikhan]

I went exactly the other way with my summoner.
I rarely (if ever) summon anything other than the eidolon, because i'm a Synthesist. A front-line "squash-em-flat" Synthesist.
At 9th level, I have 3 primary attacks, 2 secondary attacks, and potentially 4 additional attacks from successful grapple attempts. With pounce. I can also fly.
I can cast a spell to have a (single-use) breath weapon.

Summoners who summon are at the thin edge of the 'broken' wedge, in my opinion.

[Tyndmyr]

What the DM says goes. If he says enough stupid stuff, the players go too.

It's everyone's campaign. They're all playing it, and if just the DM is there, then yes, it's solely his campaign. And also, pretty much non functional.

So, if everyone's a part of it, everyone should be a part of mid-game rules changes. Ask your fellow players how they'd feel about their primary attack style being banned mid-game. At a minimum, you should be able to redo your char to do something different.

Eagles are not...particularly bad. If they're crushing his encounters, then the problem is that the encounters are just really, really weak, and any summon will crush them.

[Aneurin]

Then better read the thread again, 'cause that's not the case here.

Actually, you're wrong. Well, you might be wrong.

That is not the case that has been presented here. We don't know the DM's side of this story, we don't know the other players' side. All we have is the OPs presentation.

Zarg, I apologise, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I've no idea how you play, or how the rest of the party plays, or how the DM runs the game, so I'm throwing some ideas around. I'm not saying the DM's right, either, but rather than the majority saying "That's not overpowered, he shouldn't have done that", it would make sense to think up possible reasons other than power level?

Why did he ban the birds? Could it be that trying to keep the varying altitudes of 2-4 creatures was getting on his nerves? Were you complaining if the glass cannon "accidentally" blew them up?

Why did he ban multiple summons? Were you, however inadvertantly, using other summons to block the charge lines of your party? Were you spending 5 minutes or more on each of their movements, as well as your own characters? Were your summons using flanking, along with your party, to completely trivialize the encounter as you pin an otherwise maneuverable creature in place and gain a lot of bonuses to attacking it?


If the answer to the above is all "no" then, well, it could be that your DM is just being unreasonable. But it strikes me as being worth taking the time to figure out why this happened, rather than immediately trying to find a way around the ruling. But go back over the fights in your mind, and try and see if there's any reason why your DM might do this, or at least if there were any actions you took that gave him a pained look.

[Helldog]

Actually, you're wrong. Well, you might be wrong.
Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

[Grendus]

I'm confused as to why he thinks the summoner is a support caster. Even on a first read, summoner is clearly a pet focused class, with summoning spells and a summoned eidolon as the classes entire focus. Maybe he saw the 2/3 casting and mistook it for the bard?

I'd suggest either sucking it up and using your eidolon as a frontliner and your summoner as the support caster the DM thinks it should be or rebuilding to a different class, preferably one that you can play the role you want with without irritating the DM.

[Alienist]

I would actually find that an interesting restriction. Play a summoner, but as a support class rather than a nuker.

... okay ...

If this was 3.5 then I might use summons to give my team-mates flanking, that's support.

I might use a summon to 'stop' the squishy mage being flattened by horde of (whatever) (not that the horde is under any obligation in the rules to pay attention and not carry on straight past to the primary target, but that is another issue)

Archery is kind of a support role for the party, can you get summons that hang back and plink away with ranged attacks?

If it was 3.5 I'd take the primary healer roll away from the healbot with the use of unicorns :D Not sure if that still applies in PF

Maybe you should try some variety as well. It sounds like one of the things your DM was reacting against was you using Eagles as an answer to everything.

Look out Orcs! I Eagles!
Wake up, it's morning. I Eagles!
You try to negotiate a discount with the merchant. I Eagles!
Make a gather information check. I Eagles!
Roll local knowledge. I Eagles!
It's 11am. I Eagles!

The emissary of a powerful invading empire approaches. THIS IS EEEAAAAGGGGGLLELEEEELEEESSSS!!!! (boot)

[ericgrau]

I'm confused. A CR 5 black dragon has 51 HP. And enough AC that he should only be hit 1/3 of the time. An eagle does 1d4 damage, 1d4+2 with augment summoning. And has 6 HP so the army dies to 1 breath weapon. So it should take about 15 eagles to take down the dragon in two rounds, less with help from other players, and only assuming the swarm doesn't get breathed on first by any dragon with half a brain saying "oh look a swarm, perfect for an area attack". How exactly did you steamroll the encounter? We need more details.

Other than that what the DM says goes and players shouldn't whine or make threats about it if they want to spend the session playing a fun game. He should refund your now useless feat and let you pick a different feat though.

[Ziegander]

Other than that what the DM says goes and players shouldn't whine or make threats about it if they want to spend the session playing a fun game.

Um, if a player wants to spend a session playing a fun game, then that player needs to be able to do the things in game that he or she thinks is fun. If what the DM says is, "no, you can't do that thing that you have fun doing, you must do this instead," and the player doesn't find that fun, then, yeah, I think the player is fully within his rights to tell the DM that he doesn't want to do that, that he shouldn't have to do that, and that he'll quit playing if that's the way the DM wants to treat him. Probably not in the middle of the session; probably once it's over, but that's out of respect for the other players.


He should refund your now useless feat and let you pick a different feat though.

Yes, he should, that would be fair.

[zarg43]

yeah so I talked it out with my DM and he basically said,
"yea were not really mad, its just more of diffrance of flow, really. nether method is wrong, and yeah. if truth be told i really dont want you out of the campain, but its just hard to make everyone engaged. Still sorry it is come ot this, if there was a compromises we could find i would take it but i dont know. but yeah ill keep you up to date on whats happening in it."
quoted exactly from the conversation.
he went on to say that he would like to see how I play without the multi-summon and birds. I kinda don't want to stay in the group not because I miss the multi-summon or the birds, it's the fact I see problems down the road with my power gaming attitude, conflicting with the general "newness" of 2 of our members (the half elf rouge, and Oracle), not to mention our barbarian even if he optimizes he rolls so low he needs a +20+AC of target, to hit the dam thing.

TL;DR: DM not really mad, but doesn't know what to do.

[Helldog]

Why don't you help the new players with their characters?

[zarg43]

Why don't you help the new players with their characters?

that is exactly what my DM doesn't want me to do. He wants every one to play the way they want to play, without influence from the other players (me)
He said explicitly that If I optimized any one else he would just call the group over.

[olentu]

that is exactly what my DM doesn't want me to do. He wants every one to play the way they want to play, without influence from the other players (me)
He said explicitly that If I optimized any one else he would just call the group over.

Seems kind of hypocritical.

[zarg43]

Seems kind of hypocritical.

that maybe so, but I'd rather not break up the group because the other people have taken a back seat some times in combat to my summons. From the DM's standpoint I get it, if he lets me re-roll part of my character there should be no problem.

[Enterti]

that maybe so, but I'd rather not break up the group because the other people have taken a back seat some times in combat to my summons. From the DM's standpoint I get it, if he lets me re-roll part of my character there should be no problem.

If he does let you reroll try the pf artificer, its third party but listed on the pfsrd. Its a lot of fun but shouldn't take over the party unless you start making golem armies. It can also be very effective in a support role

[Hiro Protagonest]

What about a bard? Much better at support.

[ericgrau]

Um, if a player wants to spend a session playing a fun game, then that player needs to be able to do the things in game that he or she thinks is fun. If what the DM says is, "no, you can't do that thing that you have fun doing, you must do this instead," and the player doesn't find that fun, then, yeah, I think the player is fully within his rights to tell the DM that he doesn't want to do that, that he shouldn't have to do that, and that he'll quit playing if that's the way the DM wants to treat him. Probably not in the middle of the session; probably once it's over, but that's out of respect for the other players.
Not if it prevents 3 other players from having fun or disrupts the game over nothing. DMs make house rules or even simply have differing rules interpretations all the time. Unless it actually prevents you from doing anything you might as well go with it instead of fighting over nothing. Fighting over nothing DOES stop everyone from having a fun game. As does disparity in levels of power making it hard for the DM to provide a fun challenge one player without killing off another. Evening things out is more than fine; it's often required.

Complaining about something you can't do that doesn't actually affect the game negatively is exactly what I called it: whining and disruptive.

The OP's concern that he might have further trouble with anything else he does is a bit more valid of a complaint, since you can only make so many character revisions before it becomes annoying. Though that fear may or may not actually happen. I don't know the group personally so I can't say. I can see the frustration behind wanting to do your best when that puts you too far ahead of the other players. Playing support was one good suggestion around this; another is self imposed limitations. Like I know XYZ is too much stronger than most other things so I don't allow myself to get it. You can call it self restraint or you can call XYZ unfair, either way it evens out the characters at the gaming table.

[Randomatic]

that is exactly what my DM doesn't want me to do. He wants every one to play the way they want to play, without influence from the other players (me)
He said explicitly that If I optimized any one else he would just call the group over.

You mean he wants everyone else to play the way they want, without you helping them. While you have to suck up the nerf bat, due to your DM being unable to handle some birds. All in all that doesn't look like a healthy attitude to deal with.

[SirFredgar]

To me this sounds like not only a disparity between OP's skill level and his groups, but also the skill level of the DM. I can remember my fledgling DM days of yore with newbies just starting the game with me. We had loads of fun in our little core-only low-to-no op game. Then I started playing with people that not only knew how to optimize (even moderately) started blowing through my little campaign-on-rails.

This culminated in a party of 4 6th level characters, a Battle Sorc (Braindead player, may as well have been an npc commoner), Druid/Wizard Theurge, Bard, And (the Optimizer) troll blooded charging barbarian all destroying a pair of 12th level characters that were intergral to my plot.

My recation? Ban Arms and Equipment guide, ban Shock Trooper, Ban leap attack, and "buff" casters who were appearntly obviously weaker then a melee. This (over)reaction lead to the dissolution of my game, as it destroyed the trust between DM and Players. I looked at those sheets before hand, and approved them. We had played more then a few games already (level 1-6), but once I became overwhelmed anything I "didn't know what to do with" I'd nix it.

It really sounds like your DM is going through similar growing pains. If it were me in your shoes I'd see if he'd be agreeable to you helping -him- with the stuff he's not sure how to handle. Maybe once he sees a few things from the PoV of a more experienced player, he'd be more willing to let you help the group as a whole.

Otherwise if he continues with his reactionary policy, i fear things will continue to get worse untill someone snaps. D&D is a game, first and foremost, and is meant to be enjoyed by everyone you are sitting at the table with. If not everyone at that table is having fun, it should be adressed.... even if you are the only one not having fun. If that is the case though, the most reasonable decision would be to walk.

[Helldog]

Or offer to run one game or something, to ease them into optimization.

[SirFredgar]

Or offer to run one game or something, to ease them into optimization.

This. 110%, this.

It was the optimizer in my previous post ran that the next game I played. He assited me with selecting character options for the concept, and advised me on the magic/melee gap. Needless to say, this made me much more comfortable allowing other options on my next go-around. Now my games are pretty much anything goes (I have a cheese scale, and won't allow anything more cheesy then Gouda), high powered, high-op, standbox games.

[zarg43]

To me this sounds like not only a disparity between OP's skill level and his groups, but also the skill level of the DM. I can remember my fledgling DM days of yore with newbies just starting the game with me. We had loads of fun in our little core-only low-to-no op game. Then I started playing with people that not only knew how to optimize (even moderately) started blowing through my little campaign-on-rails.

This culminated in a party of 4 6th level characters, a Battle Sorc (Braindead player, may as well have been an npc commoner), Druid/Wizard Theurge, Bard, And (the Optimizer) troll blooded charging barbarian all destroying a pair of 12th level characters that were intergral to my plot.

My recation? Ban Arms and Equipment guide, ban Shock Trooper, Ban leap attack, and "buff" casters who were appearntly obviously weaker then a melee. This (over)reaction lead to the dissolution of my game, as it destroyed the trust between DM and Players. I looked at those sheets before hand, and approved them. We had played more then a few games already (level 1-6), but once I became overwhelmed anything I "didn't know what to do with" I'd nix it.

It really sounds like your DM is going through similar growing pains. If it were me in your shoes I'd see if he'd be agreeable to you helping -him- with the stuff he's not sure how to handle. Maybe once he sees a few things from the PoV of a more experienced player, he'd be more willing to let you help the group as a whole.

Otherwise if he continues with his reactionary policy, i fear things will continue to get worse untill someone snaps. D&D is a game, first and foremost, and is meant to be enjoyed by everyone you are sitting at the table with. If not everyone at that table is having fun, it should be adressed.... even if you are the only one not having fun. If that is the case though, the most reasonable decision would be to walk.

Very analytical and helpful. I will consider some of these points, thank you ^^


so due to a long course of events and a few too many multi-summon Eagles in our pathfinder he made a whole new rule that says no birds and no multi summon. Me being a summoner whined like a baby for a while, then I said WWGITPD! (what would giant in the playground do!)

So my question is what is a single summon monster for every according level of the spell that is worth a look. Also what is one way besides Augmented Summoning to beef up summons so they can eat more things :D

TL;DR: what is the best summons and or feats to go with it?



I really didn't want to make this a "I HATE MY DM BECAUSE HE HAS A SPINE!" thread, I wanted a solution not reassurance.

But one big thing is that my DM has far more experience with the game, now given that I read a lot more of the books and other things. But he knows a few really good things about being a DM and is usually very good about this kind of thing. But when he has a idea for a campaign there is almost no ground I can fight him on some times. As he just uses the one size fits all "my world doesn't work like that", which gets under my skin some times when I'm trying to make a point.

[SirFredgar]

But one big thing is that my DM has far more experience with the game, now given that I read a lot more of the books and other things. But he knows a few really good things about being a DM and is usually very good about this kind of thing. But when he has a idea for a campaign there is almost no ground I can fight him on some times. As he just uses the one size fits all "my world doesn't work like that", which gets under my skin some times when I'm trying to make a point.


I agree. I do see it from the DM PoV that he wants his world to work a certain way, but the rules of the universe shouldn't change mid game. Houserules (as he is doing), should be agreed by all parties ahead of time. Sometimes a houserule can make the difference, for me, between playing X, Y, Z, Or not playing.

One thing though, speaking as a DM, if the table comes to an agreement on a houserule then that should be the end of it. One pet peeve of mine was that player that would constantly rehash old rulings. "Man, I really wish I could find a 20th level druid in this small village to enhance my unarmed strike...." is not something I want to hear every sat night.

[Stubbed Tongue]

I have an idea that you may like;

If the DM has trouble with your optimizing how about using the variant rule from the DMG(3.5) page 37.

It would solve many problems.
1) You would be rolling the birds stats and since the MM critters are almost all 3d6 arranged in order the likelihood of having awesome critters is random.

2)Once the critters are killed you can't get that specific one back until 24 hours have passed.

3)It would give you more to roleplay.

The list goes on. Seriously check it out.

[zarg43]

I agree. I do see it from the DM PoV that he wants his world to work a certain way, but the rules of the universe shouldn't change mid game. Houserules (as he is doing), should be agreed by all parties ahead of time. Sometimes a houserule can make the difference, for me, between playing X, Y, Z, Or not playing.

One thing though, speaking as a DM, if the table comes to an agreement on a houserule then that should be the end of it. One pet peeve of mine was that player that would constantly rehash old rulings. "Man, I really wish I could find a 20th level druid in this small village to enhance my unarmed strike...." is not something I want to hear every sat night.

if I heard from all the other players that they felt useless I would change in a heart beat, but one was enough for me to call it. The barbarian of all people said he wasn't having fun. This is the guy who kicks Kobalts off cliffs for ****s and giggles, that was when I decided it has gone to far, if one of the people who finds joy in the simpler aspects of d&d says that. So I'm working with my DM with some revisions to my character, a Evolutionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/evolutionist) sounds cool ^^

[killem2]

What is it with DMs getting butthurt over their monsters getting defeated?

I love it when my groups beat my encounters. The challenge is how BADLY do they beat it.

If they steam roll it, I don't get mad and start banning ****, I blame myself for sending carebears at my party.

[TheMeMan]

You mean he wants everyone else to play the way they want, without you helping them. While you have to suck up the nerf bat, due to your DM being unable to handle some birds. All in all that doesn't look like a healthy attitude to deal with.

Well, the problem is that if he goes that route he risk making the other players even more irrelevant than they already are. As for not helping, that is an odd circumstance to say the least. But getting frustrated when a player is excessively overpowering other characters is a different story. It's not necessarily that he's frustrated with the summons themselves, but rather with the situation. In order to challenge the summoner, he has to increase it accordingly to for the other players. Which means that they are no longer relevant as they are extremely low-op. I can actually see this justified, as there are 4 members to the group, and if 1 person is dominated the other three, then the simplest solution is to remove the fourth. It's better than just saying "Screw off" to the other members, and far more fair. Catering to one who doesn't want to play ball in a low-op game is far more unfair to the rest of the group.

[olentu]

Well, the problem is that if he goes that route he risk making the other players even more irrelevant than they already are. As for not helping, that is an odd circumstance to say the least. But getting frustrated when a player is excessively overpowering other characters is a different story. It's not necessarily that he's frustrated with the summons themselves, but rather with the situation. In order to challenge the summoner, he has to increase it accordingly to for the other players. Which means that they are no longer relevant as they are extremely low-op. I can actually see this justified, as there are 4 members to the group, and if 1 person is dominated the other three, then the simplest solution is to remove the fourth. It's better than just saying "Screw off" to the other members, and far more fair. Catering to one who doesn't want to play ball in a low-op game is far more unfair to the rest of the group.

Er, yeah, so the guy said that he would certainly take action to resolve any situation where he was making the others not have fun. The DM on the other hand I would say is overacting quite a bit.

Personally that and the apparent disjunction between letting people play what they want and interfering with one player would quite possibly turn me off of the game. Adding in the threat of disbanding the group I would probably walk if things could not be resolved. But then that is just me. If I had the free time I would possibly offer the others my services as a DM to th others.

[turkishproverb]

that is exactly what my DM doesn't want me to do. He wants every one to play the way they want to play, without influence from the other players (me)
He said explicitly that If I optimized any one else he would just call the group over.

Tell him flat out you or someone else can GM if he's going to be all Rufus T Firefly about it.

...

Actually. Do it. Take over for him. You're the more experienced with the rules, it'd probably be a good idea. I can link you to some fun adventures (http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/83-free-dd-adventures)(might need some minor rules updates) if you need a jump-start.


And make it quite clear you will not accept his demand you don't help fellow players. No matter what I think of his ban/ruling, this is horrible. The other players can say no if they don't want your help.

[onemorelurker]

And make it quite clear you will not accept his demand you don't help fellow players. No matter what I think of his ban/ruling, this is horrible. The other players can say no if they don't want your help.

I totally agree. The problem with saying "Don't help them, everyone should be able to play whatever they want" is that it assumes that the new players are choosing to play totally unoptimized characters. Low-to-no-op is a valid playstyle choice, of course, but there's a difference between an experienced player choosing not to optimize for whatever reason and a new player not optimizing because they're not familiar enough with the system to do so. It's entirely possible that the other players in the OP's game would like to make characters who aren't outclassed by summoned creatures but don't know how to do that. As long as the OP doesn't force anybody to make better build decisions, I don't see the harm in offering some help.

[Belril Duskwalk]

What the DM says goes. If he says enough stupid stuff, the players go too.

May I sig this? So simple, yet so true.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, but what the hell were you doing with multi-summoned Eagles that was so abusive that the DM banned all birds of all things, and then also banned multi-summons?

I'm sorry, but this made me fall over laughing.

[Belril Duskwalk]

I totally agree. The problem with saying "Don't help them, everyone should be able to play whatever they want" is that it assumes that the new players are choosing to play totally unoptimized characters. Low-to-no-op is a valid playstyle choice, of course, but there's a difference between an experienced player choosing not to optimize for whatever reason and a new player not optimizing because they're not familiar enough with the system to do so. It's entirely possible that the other players in the OP's game would like to make characters who aren't outclassed by summoned creatures but don't know how to do that. As long as the OP doesn't force anybody to make better build decisions, I don't see the harm in offering some help.

I have to say I agree with this also. If the OP is willing and able to calmly offer advice, without it coming across as 'If you don't pick Feat X your character will be USELESS!' I see no reason that he shouldn't do so. If the problem is that character A is too good, the best solution is less often 'Harm A' than it is 'Bolster B-D'. If nothing else, Bolstering B-D is less likely to stomp on something A wanted.

[Antonok]

I totally agree. The problem with saying "Don't help them, everyone should be able to play whatever they want" is that it assumes that the new players are choosing to play totally unoptimized characters. Low-to-no-op is a valid playstyle choice, of course, but there's a difference between an experienced player choosing not to optimize for whatever reason and a new player not optimizing because they're not familiar enough with the system to do so. It's entirely possible that the other players in the OP's game would like to make characters who aren't outclassed by summoned creatures but don't know how to do that. As long as the OP doesn't force anybody to make better build decisions, I don't see the harm in offering some help.

I agree with this also.

I'm not suggesting teaching them munchkin level optimization, but even just making them aware of feats/class combos/etc that opens up more options, and helping them make those builds be in line with the overall group power level will help immensely.

This allows the DM's 'let them play what they want to play (also lets them have more choices for what they might want to play)' rule while also putting everyone in a competitive state so no one gets overshadowed.