What's going to happen to Gobbotopia after Xykon and Redcloak leave?

[toughluck]

This is purely speculation, and as such it may or may not happen. The spoiler tags are just to prevent people from spoiling one of the possible resolutions. Without further ado:
Short answer: Hobgobbotopia.
Long answer:
The majority (93%, in fact) of the inhabitants are hobgoblins. They normally live by oppressing their weaker cousins. Now, not only are they stronger, they are also the majority, and the leader will be the hobgoblin.
The only reason why there is peace in the city right now is because Redcloak is in there, so nobody will stand up to a goblin, and everyone lives in some accord. However, this may not remain true when Redcloak leaves. As far as I can tell, there has been not a single goblin in a position of power (indeed, in the foreground) since Azure City was taken.
Once Redcloak leaves, goblins are fair game. Hobgoblins will shortly start abusing and enslaving them. Whatever Jirix does, it will be too little, too late, and he will have to accept the status quo, only he'll learn of it after it's done.
Any other ideas? I'd love to hear them out.

Has this been speculated before? Could anyone point me to the right thread, then?

[RMS Oceanic]

This is purely speculation, and as such it may or may not happen. The spoiler tags are just to prevent people from spoiling one of the possible resolutions. Without further ado:
Short answer: Hobgobbotopia.
Long answer:
The majority (93%, in fact) of the inhabitants are hobgoblins. They normally live by oppressing their weaker cousins. Now, not only are they stronger, they are also the majority, and the leader will be the hobgoblin.
The only reason why there is peace in the city right now is because Redcloak is in there, so nobody will stand up to a goblin, and everyone lives in some accord. However, this may not remain true when Redcloak leaves. As far as I can tell, there has been not a single goblin in a position of power (indeed, in the foreground) since Azure City was taken.
Once Redcloak leaves, goblins are fair game. Hobgoblins will shortly start abusing and enslaving them. Whatever Jirix does, it will be too little, too late, and he will have to accept the status quo, only he'll learn of it after it's done.
Any other ideas? I'd love to hear them out.

Has this been speculated before? Could anyone point me to the right thread, then?

I wouldn't like to see Gobbotopia's collapse or corruption come from within. Jirix at least seems to be a true believer in Gobbotopia and following Redcloak's plan, so I'd think he'd be proactive about Inter-Goblinoid tensions. I'd say the biggest threat to Gobbotopia is still from outside the Goblin races, either from Azure Island building up a proper alliance to reconquer the city, or perhaps Xykon punishing Redcloak for something.

[fergo]

I don't think all of Recloak and Jirrix's good (?) work will be undone at this stage. For one thing, I simply can't see the point of including it in the story.


Hypothetically, it could be part of Redcloak's downfall: he realises that all his dreams are for nothing, after all; even when given their own civilisation, goblins still can't work together like any other race.

But Rich has gone to extraordinary lengths to make Redcloak a likeable and somewhat sympathetic character (albeit an extremely flawed one). Firstly such an outcome would just be simply cruel, and secondly all Rich's work would be completely pointless if the moral of the story is "Goblins are evil creatures and can never be more than roving bands of XP-fodder."

If anything happens to Gobbotopia, I predict it will be at the hands of Xykon I'm sure I'm not the first person to think this though.

[toughluck]

I don't think all of Recloak and Jirrix's good (?) work will be undone at this stage. For one thing, I simply can't see the point of including it in the story.


Hypothetically, it could be part of Redcloak's downfall: he realises that all his dreams are for nothing, after all; even when given their own civilisation, goblins still can't work together like any other race.

But Rich has gone to extraordinary lengths to make Redcloak a likeable and somewhat sympathetic character (albeit an extremely flawed one). Firstly such an outcome would just be simply cruel, and secondly all Rich's work would be completely pointless if the moral of the story is "Goblins are evil creatures and can never be more than roving bands of XP-fodder."
Perhaps, but we don't know what Rich thinks. Personally, I don't know if Rich is still running campaigns and whether he's using goblins in them and to what end do they exist.
On the other hand, Rich has no qualms about making kobolds little running chunks of XP...
As for "all of Rich's work" -- Can you even be a racist bigot for treating a fictional race with some prejudice and cast them in a very unfavorable light? And OotS is not all of his work -- Rich does subvert pretty much every trope here, but some of OotS plays them straight.
If anything, it would make peaceful goblins the tragic group hero of this story -- they had what they ostensibly wanted, but then they wanted more and paid a price for their greed.
Does anyone honestly think hobgoblins stopped bullying goblins around? Especially when said goblins are a very small minority and some hobgoblins already get arrested for roughing up the greenskins?
How long until the orange star on the Gobbotopia banner starts rising?

[ti'esar]

I don't believe that Gobbotopia can survive in the long run without altering its attitude towards humans.

[ti'esar]

Double-post, ignore.

[ti'esar]

Double-post, ignore.

[The Pilgrim]

If anything happens to Gobbotopia, I predict it will be at the hands of Xykon I'm sure I'm not the first person to think this though.

You are not.

In fact, I think that it would be nice that:

At some point, Xykon's actions will threaten Gobbopia's existence, and Redcloak will finally stand up to him, and getting killed, to save the goblinoid City.

[Vahir]

What I would like to see?

Azurites reclaim the city, learn from the past's lessons and ease up on the goblins.

What will likely happen?

Gobbtopia will thrive on the paladins' graves.

[fergo]

As for "all of Rich's work" -- Can you even be a racist bigot for treating a fictional race with some prejudice and cast them in a very unfavorable light? And OotS is not all of his work -- Rich does subvert pretty much every trope here, but some of OotS plays them straight.

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but I definately didn't intend to say Rich was being racist :smallredface:.

What I mean is, I can't see how playing the trope straigt would fit into the story, especially after it's been so strongly subverted by Redcloak personally.

At the end of the day, it's down to personal preference. I've very much enjoyed how Rich has developed goblins (even before I'd read SoD and I personally wouldn't like to see this particular development :smalltongue:


If anything, it would make peaceful goblins the tragic group hero of this story -- they had what they ostensibly wanted, but then they wanted more and paid a price for their greed.

That would be pretty cool, yeah :smallsmile:. But I'd still prefer a different outcome. :smallcool:



Does anyone honestly think hobgoblins stopped bullying goblins around? Especially when said goblins are a very small minority and some hobgoblins already get arrested for roughing up the greenskins?
How long until the orange star on the Gobbotopia banner starts rising?


I know the comparison isn't perfect, but I like to think how the Hobbos treat Redcloak after he became part of their structure (obeying his orders and even sacrificing their lives for him) shows that Hobbos at a whole can accept Goblins when they're all part of the same 'tribe'--how this plays out as Gobbotopia develops and expands remains to be seen, but I still see evidence enough to hope for a relatively peaceful state of affairs.

On the other hand, literally everything I know about the D&D world comes from this commic, so maybe the antagonism is on a deeper level than I know.

[whitelaughter]

Eventually they will finish torturing the humans to death, and then work on each other. Slaughtering the humans living on the farmland means no regular food supplies, dropping the sustainable population through the floor. Infrastructure will collapse, and in a few years it will be a large ruin/dungeon for adventurers to clear out.

We have an example of goblin 'civilization' - Redcloak's village. Even with multiple high level clerics, they couldn't create anything interesting.

Any society where your basic mythology says "everything that is wrong is someone else's fault" doesn't provide you the worldview you need to build a decent society, it just persuades you to get revenge.

[toughluck]

Ah, no, I cannot see the antagonism in the sourcebooks, although I may have been reading the wrong ones and just skimmed some sections.

As for hobgoblins treating Redcloak with respect:
1. He led their army to victory over Azure City..
2. He is the single most powerful cleric that goblinkind had.
3. He is the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and that means a lot to goblinkind.
4. He has devotion of a small, if powerful, group of other (hob)goblins.
All in all, Redcloak is a powerful figure who impresses all goblins (bonus to charisma from the mantle?).

So far, there has been no open struggle and no open hostilities between various kinds of goblins (apart from that killed prisoner, for example), but it doesn't mean that without Redcloak or any other goblin, in fact, in a visible position, it wouldn't change.

[fergo]

We have an example of goblin 'civilization' - Redcloak's village. Even with multiple high level clerics, they couldn't create anything interesting.

To be fair, repeated crusades by the Paladins might have had something to do with that :smalltongue:.

]In SoD it (through Redcloak's narration, which of course may be biased or simply incorrect) that since the Dark One's lifetime the other races have went out of their way to make sure goblins could never become too settled. It's no suprise they're living in wooden huts, if they're forced to forever live their lives on the run. Maybe Righteye's village may have developed into something more over time, but we'll never know thanks to a certain psychotic lich :smallwink:.


Any society where your basic mythology says "everything that is wrong is someone else's fault" doesn't provide you the worldview you need to build a decent society, it just persuades you to get revenge.

Too true. But when you're literally the lowest of the low, is it any wonder?

[fergo]

Ah, no, I cannot see the antagonism in the sourcebooks, although I may have been reading the wrong ones and just skimmed some sections.

As for hobgoblins treating Redcloak with respect:
1. He led their army to victory over Azure City..
2. He is the single most powerful cleric that goblinkind had.
3. He is the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and that means a lot to goblinkind.
4. He has devotion of a small, if powerful, group of other (hob)goblins.
All in all, Redcloak is a powerful figure who impresses all goblins (bonus to charisma from the mantle?).

So far, there has been no open struggle and no open hostilities between various kinds of goblins (apart from that killed prisoner, for example), but it doesn't mean that without Redcloak or any other goblin, in fact, in a visible position, it wouldn't change.

I agree there :smallsmile:. Maybe I was underestimating the symbolism of the Cimson Mantle, especially since the Dark One himself led Hobbos and Gobbos alike.

[Morty]

Even though many people seem to want it to happen, perhaps because it reinforces their preconceptions about how goblinoids should behave, I think Gobbotopia crumbling once Redcloak leaves would be hugely anticlimatcic for a variety of reasons. First, it would mean that all the time Redcloak has spent in the ruins of Azure City was wasted. Second, for as long as Gobbotopia exists, it's a source of doubt for Redcloak as to whether the Plan is really worth it.

[pendell]

I'm going to call it now. Unless Redcloak has a change of heart, Gobbotopia will collapse. Because past is prologue. If you do the same thing , you can expect the same result.

SOD spoilers

A society like Gobbotopia already existed , in the form or Right-Eye's village. That village was destroyed and its inhabitants sacrificed by Xykon for fun, and Redcloak went along with it all for the sake of "the plan".

I don't think that the Dark One's plan will ultimately lead to happiness or equality for goblinkind. Until Redcloak mans up and admits --as Right-Eye did -- that he was wrong to follow this evil plan and the Dark One -- the hopes and dreams of goblinoids will continue to come crashing down through self-destruction. And that self-destruction will continue to come at the hands of Redcloak, directly or indirectly, as it did when he helped Xykon destroy Redcloak's village. As it did when Right-eye's family was murdered and he did nothing. As it did when he, himself, killed Right-Eye.

Unless and until Redcloak admits that he was wrong , as long as he continues to double down on stupid, Redcloak and the goblins will never have a happy ending.

OTOH, if Redcloak ever CAN turn his back on his errors , renounce the plan and act to destroy Xykon -- it might be the comic's happy ending.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[fergo]

In my opinion... spoilered for being basless prediction

I agree with Pendell's analysis but I believe ultimately Redcloak will die, probably after such a revelation. If he works towards stopping Xykon before that, I predict that it'll be short-lived--either disruption Xykon at a crucial moment, or just attempting to do so and failing.

I doubt that Redcloak will be directly responsible for Xykon's downfall. Not that it wouldn't be absolutely epic, but just because the OotS will be instead..