Spoileriffic Musing about the Crimson Mantle

[SpaceBadger]

I re-read part of Start of Darkness last night, and was reminded of something that bothered me.

The Paladins who wiped out most of Redcloak's family and friends were on a mission to defeat the Wearer of the Crimson Mantle, so it appears that they knew something about the Crimson Mantle as a dangerous artifact, even if they did not know the whole Secret Plan of the Dark One that goes along with it.

Redcloak's mentor passed the Crimson Mantle to Redcloak, and he escaped with it and has been wearing it ever since.

Why did the Paladins not continue to hunt the Crimson Mantle after this?

[Manga Shoggoth]

Who says they haven't?

Miko immediately identified Redcloak by the Crimson Mantle, and immediately went Miko on him.

[fergo]

I got the impression the Paladins were actively continuing the fight against the Crimson Mantle at least up until Redcloak partnered himself with Xykon.

In the scene the goblins meet Xykon, Redcloak talks about the Paladins driving them into swamps (which is why they're attacking the fort). Assuming the swamps were in the same general area as the original goblin village, it seems to me they must have continued their crusade against goblins, and Redcloak himself specifically, until they lost track of him when he ran off with Xykon.

Miko's reaction when she met Redcloak shows that even in the years that followed when they (presumably) had no word of the Crimson Mantle, new Paladins were told its significance.

[NerfTW]

I re-read part of Start of Darkness last night, and was reminded of something that bothered me.

The Paladins who wiped out most of Redcloak's family and friends were on a mission to defeat the Wearer of the Crimson Mantle, so it appears that they knew something about the Crimson Mantle as a dangerous artifact, even if they did not know the whole Secret Plan of the Dark One that goes along with it.

Redcloak's mentor passed the Crimson Mantle to Redcloak, and he escaped with it and has been wearing it ever since.

Why did the Paladins not continue to hunt the Crimson Mantle after this?

They have. But it's not like the goblins are shouting "Hey, here's the Crimson Mantle! Over here, Paladins!"

They're in hiding. The paladins found them that time. Red Cloak has been hiding ever since, making sure to keep the whole "Crimson Mantle" thing on the down low. For all anyone knows, he's a random goblin cleric. Only a member of the Sapphire Guard would recognize the mantle on sight. (as we saw with Miko)

[dancrilis]

Given the amount of the that he spend with Xykon, it is possible that they (and by they I mean Shojo) sensible decided that this was a job for only the paladins he felt would be better suited far away from Azure city (and thereby not annoying him ever again).

[RMS Oceanic]

I figured they just lost track of where the Crimson Mantle was until its Bearer decided to break down the front door of one of their fortresses.

[Fish]

My Crimson Mantle question is different but no less spoileriffic.

What would happen to its (or Redcloak's) divine power if the Dark One were killed?
By Xykon, let's say.

[dancrilis]

Depends on the artefact and the story that Rich wants to tell.

And I don't mean depends choose A or B, or ever 1 to 10, literally anything could happen to it subject to the story.

Perhaps the most likely options are:
The Dark One uses it as a phylactery and returns unharmed.
It stops functioning.
It rips a whole into the Snarls prison as a final revenge.
Nothing changes.

But that is the only four out of all possible changes, and from a story telling perspective perhaps not even the four most likely.

[Fish]

I assume at the very least, Redcloak would have no spells, were his god to be killed, yes?

[dancrilis]

I assume at the very least, Redcloak would have no spells, were his god to be killed, yes?

Again it depends (assuming that the Dark One is dead and gone, say eaten by the Snarl), you can in theory get spells from a cause, as such Redcloak could get the spells from the cause of Goblins Equality.

However many settings require a deity to provide the spells, but some don't need the deity to approve the clerics (being to busy to deal wit everything).

For Redcloak I would say he would lose them, subject (as is everything) to narrative requirements.

[toughluck]

Another thing which bothered me about the Crimson Mantle was that the paladins did not keep hold of it when they killed the previous Bearer.
I mean, they could easily check that it was magical and it would be prudent to keep it away from the rest of the goblins -- even if only for the purpose of preventing goblins from using a magic item.

[whitelaughter]

I assume at the very least, Redcloak would have no spells, were his god to be killed, yes?
Probably not, as a D&D Cleric can get spells without a god. He'd have a very minor reduction in power, in that any Domains the Dark One offers that Redcloak hasn't taken still put spells on Redcloak's spell list - he can't cast them, but can read them from scrolls etc. But that's really minor.

[M.A.D]

Xykon can't kill a god. It's just not done.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Xykon can't kill a god. It's just not done.

Indeed. If that sort of thing happened, reality would be in a real snarl.

[SoC175]

My Crimson Mantle question is different but no less spoileriffic.

What would happen to its (or Redcloak's) divine power if the Dark One were killed?
By Xykon, let's say.Unless he is laughing himself to death at the sight of the puny mortal working up his most epic magic and yet not even tickling him, there is no chance of that happening.

[Ancalagon]

What would happen to its (or Redcloak's) divine power if the Dark One were killed?

D&D is full of dead gods and stuff they left. All kinds of things can happen - or not. It's "plot magic" and as such does all kinds of magic in the name of a (hopefully) good plot. Or it just vanishes, if that is the plot the author wants to tell.

What happens to Redcloak's power if the Dark One dies? This is pretty simple to figure out: A cleric gets his spells from his god. What happens without that god? The cleric becomes a lame fighter without powers, spells and bonus feats but a lot of pointless wisdom and probably a big identity crisis.

[hamishspence]

Some D&D novels with clerics of dead (or missing, or depowered) deities have them retain all their spells- but be unable to prepare any new ones.

[Ancalagon]

Interesting. But in the end 0,00001 is very, very close to 0. :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

Unless he is laughing himself to death at the sight of the puny mortal working up his most epic magic and yet not even tickling him, there is no chance of that happening.

Except that with Epic Magic you can really annihilate gods (subject to an understanding of the gods protections).

[Dark Matter]

Oddly in D&D there's no need for a Cleric or Paladin to have a god. It's not something you see very often, especially in fiction, but it's legal.

We're deep into "no rules" for what happens to Redcloak if TDO dies. Could RC rededicate himself to some other evil god? Perhaps even the concepts of Law and Destruction?

EDIT:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.....

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one)....

[The Giant]

Another thing which bothered me about the Crimson Mantle was that the paladins did not keep hold of it when they killed the previous Bearer.
I mean, they could easily check that it was magical and it would be prudent to keep it away from the rest of the goblins -- even if only for the purpose of preventing goblins from using a magic item.

It is not generally known by non-goblins that the physical cloak itself is the source of the power. To the paladins, the title "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" just means that the guy who wants to destroy reality gets to wear a red cloak. Since they don't know that the cloak is what they are actually seeking, they have never actually "gotten hold of it" at all, not in any meaningful way. It has always been passed down just before being captured. It's only existed for about 60 years, remember, and Redcloak has owned it for half of that. So it's only been passed along 3-4 times. In all of those cases, either the goblins managed to swipe it off of the corpse of the old Bearer before the paladins noticed, or they stole it back before the paladins could identify its significance.

[Fish]

Unless he is laughing himself to death at the sight of the puny mortal working up his most epic magic and yet not even tickling him, there is no chance of that happening.
We know gods can be killed in the OOTS world, or at least unmade; the Snarl can do so. The question stands: what happens to a cleric, specifically one with a divine artifact, when his god goes bye-bye?

[SpaceBadger]

It is not generally known by non-goblins that the physical cloak itself is the source of the power. To the paladins, the title "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" just means that the guy who wants to destroy reality gets to wear a red cloak. Since they don't know that the cloak is what they are actually seeking, they have never actually "gotten hold of it" at all, not in any meaningful way. It has always been passed down just before being captured. It's only existed for about 60 years, remember, and Redcloak has owned it for half of that. So it's only been passed along 3-4 times. In all of those cases, either the goblins managed to swipe it off of the corpse of the old Bearer before the paladins noticed, or they stole it back before the paladins could identify its significance.

Ah, question answered! Thank you very much, good sir.

[SoC175]

Except that with Epic Magic you can really annihilate gods (subject to an understanding of the gods protections).You can really annihilate deities by hitting them with a pointy stick. However that requires you to be of a sufficient level and Xykon is nowhere near that level.

We know gods can be killed in the OOTS world, or at least unmade; the Snarl can do so. The question stands: what happens to a cleric, specifically one with a divine artifact, when his god goes bye-bye?It's not that they can't be killed, it's that Xykon is not powerful enough by a huge margin

[Fish]

I'm asking what would happen if someone or something killed a cleric's god, not necessarily Xykon. Please stop obsessing on the whodunit, when what I'm asking is the whathappensnext. :)

[dancrilis]

You can really annihilate deities by hitting them with a pointy stick. However that requires you to be of a sufficient level and Xykon is nowhere near that level.
It's not that they can't be killed, it's that Xykon is not powerful enough by a huge margin

We have no knowledge of that, prior to cloister we may have thought he was not Epic, prior to Maximised Meteor Swarm we may have assumed 21st (which there are ways it may still be accurate).
Xykon is as powerful as he needs to be for Rich's story, if that requires him to be on the level of the Gods (or the Gods to be on a fairly low level compared to some other worlds), then so be it.

Finally Xykon is a, if he is happy he has his phylactery (which he does not currently), he can create a spell that bypasses any real chance of spell resistance, allows no real chance of a save, does enough to kill every god in the game world, and target each of them (no matter where they hid), etc as needed.
And suffer the backlash.
And regenerate in 1D10 days.

If he can research the spell he is golden, hell he could probably use the exact same spell to target every target with greater then 5 HD so that no one can challenge him, and cast it once every two months.

Epic Magic is not simply a pointy stick, it is the equivalent of cheating.

Now note I do not believe that Rich is going to use Epic Magic like this (it may negatively impact the story).
However for Xykon the Epic Sorcerer Lich (un)living in the world without having to consider narrative causality it is a possibility.

EDIT:
Just reread the Epic rules, it is not quite as potent as use take as much damage as you want.
However you could still kill an individual god easily enough at relatively low level (for epic).