How to Protect your Demiplane

[Urpriest]

So suppose you're a high level Tier 1 badass, and you want a comfy little place to call home. Naturally, you cast Genesis, to get a little pocket environment ideally suited to your whims.

Being powerful, however, you have powerful foes. Thus, you need a way to stop intruders from waltzing in to your demiplane and killing all your simulacra, bound nightmares, permanently summoned solars, etc.

What are some good ways to protect a demiplane created by Genesis from unwanted intrusion?

Bonus question: suppose you're a high level Psionic character instead. How do you protect a demiplane created by Psionic Genesis?

[Gavinfoxx]

Ahhh, I totally remember there being a few threads on this topic... I forget what they came up with, but it was a bunch of really awesome tricks... I'm going to try and find them...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Preventing them from making a focus with material attuned to your demiplane would be a good way, considering it would be just about impossible for anyone to craft one without your direct assistance...

Simply by ruling the planar realm, you can negate their Gating in by simply denying them permission to open a gate to your realm.

Use a Wish spell to prevent a Wish spell from transporting anyone to your demiplane.

[DonDuckie]

How about a vacuum? no sound means almost no spells.

Private Sanctum 99% of it, and have the only accessible place contain a sphere of annihilation.

And perhaps live elsewhere.

[Urpriest]

Preventing them from making a focus with material attuned to your demiplane would be a good way, considering it would be just about impossible for anyone to craft one without your direct assistance...

Except that it's in every spell component pouch in the world.


Simply by ruling the planar realm, you can negate their Gating in by simply denying them permission to open a gate to your realm.

I thought this only worked for deities. Does this correspond to one of the morphic traits, or is there another planar trait that lets you do this?

[Demonic_Spoon]

Well there is the obvious means: Hallow/Unhallow + Dimension Lock, Weirdstone, Forbiddance, Private Sanctum, the Symbols Line, Walls of Fire & Walls of Fire everywhere, Prismatic Walls and Prismatic Spheres, making the entire plane solid metal/rock and/or vacuum.

Epic Means: Mythal Abuse

Psionic Means: Crystal Anchors?

[Urpriest]

Well there is the obvious means: Hallow/Unhallow + Dimension Lock, Weirdstone, Forbiddance, Private Sanctum, the Symbols Line, Walls of Fire & Walls of Fire everywhere, Prismatic Walls and Prismatic Spheres, making the entire plane solid metal/rock and/or vacuum.

Epic Means: Mythal Abuse

Psionic Means: Crystal Anchors?

Mythal Abuse could do it, but most of those other effects seem to have the downside that it's impossible for you to return to the place if you leave. Is there a good way to make a protected means of entry?

[Demonic_Spoon]

Mythal Abuse could do it, but most of those other effects seem to have the downside that it's impossible for you to return to the place if you leave. Is there a good way to make a protected means of entry?

Hallow can be set to not effect you. Alternatively cover everything except a small spot with forbiddance and put sphere of annihilation there. Take a level of entropist.

Or you could use the Planeshifters capstone (Manual of the Planes) to create a demiplane with a portal that you can control for access.

[Godskook]

Except that it's in every spell component pouch in the world.

Not if you make yours an expensive component. Nothing says "stay off my lawn" like a planar focus that requires 25g worth of Byshek alloyed with 75g worth of Mithral.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Except that it's in every spell component pouch in the world.Except... not. How can they get material from your demiplane without getting to your demiplane first?


I thought this only worked for deities. Does this correspond to one of the morphic traits, or is there another planar trait that lets you do this?

The precise quote is:


Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire.

Bolded for emphasis. Since you definitely rule the planar realm, and it's certainly your personal demesnes, you can Just Say No to Gates.

Forbiddance is also a cute way to bar extradimentional travel.

[Urpriest]

Except... not. How can they get material from your demiplane without getting to your demiplane first?

They don't need to. Even if you took the focus for plane shift seriously, nothing in the spell even suggests the material needs to come from the plane in question. And you don't need to take the focus seriously because, barring DM intervention, it's automatically in all the spell component pouches in the world.


Bolded for emphasis. Since you definitely rule the planar realm, and it's certainly your personal demesnes, you can Just Say No to Gates.

Forbiddance is also a cute way to bar extradimentional travel.

Ah, I hadn't realized it was part of the Gate spell itself. Certainly handy, but only useful for that specific spell.

Forbiddance is certainly cute, but if your entire Demiplane is under Forbiddance you can't get yourself in either. How do you ward the entryway? I like the Sphere of Annihilation suggestion, but I hardly think we can guarantee access to both an artifact and an otherwise ****ty prestige class.

[Soren Hero]

Weirdstone (PGtF): 6 mile radius block on teleportation, scrying, astral and ethereal travel into the covered area. You can still do everything while in the area, so astral project everything you need to adventure/loot/etc out of your demiplane with a simulacrum'd Nightmare

[Urpriest]

Weirdstone (PGtF): 6 mile radius block on teleportation, scrying, astral and ethereal travel into the covered area. You can still do everything while in the area, so astral project everything you need to adventure/loot/etc out of your demiplane with a simulacrum'd Nightmare

Can you bring anything back though? Or bring anyone else in?

[gkathellar]

Bonus question: suppose you're a high level Psionic character instead. How do you protect a demiplane created by Psionic Genesis?

Dumb answer: since you're an StP Erudite, the same way a caster would.

[Alleran]

Ah, I hadn't realized it was part of the Gate spell itself. Certainly handy, but only useful for that specific spell.
Something puzzles me about that. If it is indeed RAW, then because you rule a planar realm, you can prevent a Gate opening in your presence or in your personal demesne.

By extension, that would seem to mean that you can stop a Gate opening in your demiplane even if you're not actually there. More than that, you can stop a Gate opening in your presence even if you're not on your demiplane at the time.

Am I reading that right? By casting Genesis and becoming ruler of a planar realm, you gain a "lol no gate-spam 4 u" power no matter where you are?

[gbprime]

And don't forget, since you define all the magical traits of the demiplane when you make it, make sure everything you specialize in (and are immune to) is maximized and empowered while everything you don't do just doesn't work.

Example would be a Lich making a demiplane where Conjuration (Healing) doesn't work and where Cold, Electricity, and Necromancy are Empowered and Maximized.

[Alleran]

And don't forget, since you define all the magical traits of the demiplane when you make it, make sure everything you specialize in (and are immune to) is maximized and empowered while everything you don't do just doesn't work.
You can also set it up so that the planar traits partially duplicate Ysgard or similar planes - for example, die in the plane and twenty-four hours later a true resurrection fires off and brings you right back again.

[Soren Hero]

Can you bring anything back though? Or bring anyone else in?

it can be turned on and off

interesting idea...if you can key one demiplane to another for cross planar travel, like having demiplane A being the only place where you can gate to demiplane B..you can unlock demiplane A, arrive, lock it...then unlock B, arrive, lock it...extra levels of protection are always nice

[Demonic_Spoon]

Forbiddance is certainly cute, but if your entire Demiplane is under Forbiddance you can't get yourself in either. How do you ward the entryway? I like the Sphere of Annihilation suggestion, but I hardly think we can guarantee access to both an artifact and an otherwise ****ty prestige class.

Only a single level of entropist(not entropomancer) is required iirc. Also a few castings of Legend Lore should reveal the location of a sphere of annihilation no? Otherwise get a item of continual Sphere of Annihilation(SC) or something.

[Andion Isurand]

You could use Forbiddance, Private Sanctum (etc) and the other mainstay spells, but leave a small portion of the plane uncovered.

Then, within 6 miles of the unaffected location, maintain a Weirdstone that's always attended by one or more faithful simulacrums/constructs/minions (etc) able to follow your orders.

Then you just use a Sending spell whenever you want to your minion(s) to deactivate the Weirdstone long enough to let you into the demiplane.

[Urpriest]

You could use Forbiddance, Private Sanctum (etc) and the other mainstay spells, but leave a small portion of the plane uncovered.

Then, within 6 miles of the unaffected location, maintain a Weirdstone that's always attended by one or more faithful simulacrums/constructs/minions (etc) able to follow your orders.

Then you just use a Sending spell whenever you want to your minion(s) to deactivate the Weirdstone long enough to let you into the demiplane.

Hmm...Sending would have a 5% failure rate, but it could always be cast again, and Weirdstone doesn't appear to block it. The Demiplane is almost certainly smaller than 6 miles in radius anyway, so you really don't need anything besides the Weirdstone, provided your minion is reliable enough.

[Andion Isurand]

Although, its nice to block off most of your demiplane with forbiddance, mage's sanctum and what have you, leaving one zone for coming in, where you can place guardians and other defenses.

[Alleran]

Although, its nice to block off most of your demiplane with forbiddance, mage's sanctum and what have you, leaving one zone for coming in, where you can place guardians and other defenses.
A giant walking statue might be a good guardian. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=6)

[gkathellar]

Although, its nice to block off most of your demiplane with forbiddance, mage's sanctum and what have you, leaving one zone for coming in, where you can place guardians and other defenses.

Alternately, block off the whole demiplane and never leave by any means other than Astral Projection.

EDIT: Not Forbiddance, but anything else works.

[Psyren]

Tippyverse already covered this. Wish gets anybody in, and weirdstone doesn't even block it because it lacks the Teleport descriptor.

The best way to keep people out is to keep them from knowing you have a demiplane. That or become a major deity yourself.

[Jack_Simth]

Step 1: Check with your DM to see if you can define the magic traits.
Step 2: Assuming yes to step 1, have it block Universal spells (to deal with Wish).
Step 3: Obtain a Simulacrum (or any other utterly loyal minion - ULM for short).
Step 4: Find a way to get the Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability.
Step 5: Forbiddance up all but a single five-foot cube of the demiplane with Supernatural Spell.
Step 6: Put a periodic automatic reset magic device trap of Ghost Trap such that it is constant, and that the area of effect includes that five-foot cube.
Step 7: Obtain a five-foot cube of material that does not block line-of-effect, but doesn't really permit anything to occupy it's own space (e.g., a really big net bag full of loose balls).
Step 8: Leave the ULM in the demiplane.
Step 9: Have the ULM put the five-foot cube into the one space that's not teleport blocked.

When you want to come in, use Sending to tell your ULM to move the cube. Then Plane Shift or Gate to that spot, and push the cube back into place. When you want to leave, move it out of place, order your minion to put it back after you're gone, step into the spot, and Plane Shift out... although you'll generally want to use Astral Projection to get away.

[Urpriest]

What's the Supernatural Forbiddance for? I can't see a step where someone can get line of effect to the Forbiddance to try to dispel it.

[Jack_Simth]

What's the Supernatural Forbiddance for? I can't see a step where someone can get line of effect to the Forbiddance to try to dispel it.

It's not for Dispells. It's because Forbiddance and Dimensional Lock permit spell resistance, so Greater Spell Immunity (or the Spell Resistance spell, if they get enough of it) means that people can invade.

[Urpriest]

It's not for Dispells. It's because Forbiddance and Dimensional Lock permit spell resistance, so Greater Spell Immunity (or the Spell Resistance spell, if they get enough of it) means that people can invade.

Ah, that's handy. Though a weirdstone seems to obviate that problem. Though your method has the advantage of keeping people from teleporting in in the same round that you do, unless they want to share your space.

[Psyren]

Step 2: Assuming yes to step 1, have it block Universal spells (to deal with Wish).

1) Universal is not a school, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#schoolSubschool) so this fails.
2) Even if it was, "regardless of local conditions" allows you to circumvent any ban of this sort, as that would be a local condition.

[motoko's ghost]

Simple, just have your fortress or whatever be built as a series of interlocking fractals built in and rotating through each other in 11 dimensions, lets see them figure, yet alone map that out:smallamused:

Have some parts be nothing but liquid poison or 700 degrees(I remember something about having it at -300 degrees to liquefy the atmosphere) have gravity randomly contort, wild magic, variable time.

Oh and guards capable of operating under those conditions:smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

1) Universal is not a school, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#schoolSubschool) so this fails.
2) Even if it was, "regardless of local conditions" allows you to circumvent any ban of this sort, as that would be a local condition.
Well, OK then, you can skip steps 1 and 2, but you need some guards in case someone blows 5,000 xp, or cheeses things up enough to bypass the 5,000 xp cost. Oh well.


Ah, that's handy. Though a weirdstone seems to obviate that problem. Though your method has the advantage of keeping people from teleporting in in the same round that you do, unless they want to share your space.
Yes, but the Wierdstone is poorly defined. It doesn't explicitly say whether or not it bypasses line of effect, for instance. If it does, you're going to have problems opening the doors to enter or leave yourself - as there's no defined method for turning the silly thing off. It also doesn't explicitly say whether or not it permits spell resistance... but the spells used in its creation do.

You'll get different details on the device from different DM's.

[agahii]

If you are epic level, you could devise an epic spell specifically for stopping a wish from letting people in. Of course someone could just make a more powerful epic spell for getting in anyway. So you need to be more powerful than the person who wants in... at least thematically :see oots cloister effect vrs epic teleport for a similar idea.

[Alleran]

Well, OK then, you can skip steps 1 and 2, but you need some guards in case someone blows 5,000 xp, or cheeses things up enough to bypass the 5,000 xp cost. Oh well.
It doesn't take a whole lot of cheese to bypass the cost. A candle of invocation will do the job, or a wizard with Planar Binding. Just whistle up the wish-granter of your choice (Solar, Zodar, Efreeti, whatever).

Short of epic magic (a demiplane-wide ward against the effects of a wish spell, maybe?), I'm not sure that anything can trump a wish transport.

[Psyren]

Well, OK then, you can skip steps 1 and 2, but you need some guards in case someone blows 5,000 xp, or cheeses things up enough to bypass the 5,000 xp cost. Oh well.

If someone is assaulting your demiplane directly, one would imagine the need is great enough to justify that expense. Say, if your phylactery was stored there and they needed to get rid of you once and for all.

And for someone capable of Wishing their high-level party past your defenses, you would need really good guards.

[Nizaris]

Simple, use Kyeudo's Truenamer fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488) and make Thwart the Traveler permanent. Using the truename of the plane (which Words of Creation let you make) and your own, allowing you to bypass the dimensional lock yourself. Just choose to give the plane very inhospitable planar traits that you turn off right before you enter, and negate all schools of magic when you make the plane (universal only helps.) Use a door of known truename as your means of going back and forth, denying other people the use of it as you do. Just cast Deny Passage before walking in at which point everyone within a 20ft cube centered on the door is thrown back to deal with melee attackers though really, Skyward Eye would allow you to survey the entire plane before you head there anyways.

[Tyndmyr]

Simple, use Kyeudo's Truenamer fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488) and make Thwart the Traveler permanent.

Well, I don't see a way in there to make it permanent. Even if it was...that's still homebrew.

[Psyren]

If homebrew is on the table, simply rewrite Wish to remove the local conditions clause, and add the Teleport descriptor when used to transport travelers. Then less exotic defenses like Forbiddance or planar traits will apply to it.

But by RAW, nothing beats Wish transport; this is again one of the lynchpins of the Tippyverse's "points of light" setting. Nobody is totally immune to large-scale invasion, therefore diplomacy is necessary - and if any power goes on the offensive, they stretch themselves thin enough to be open to reprisals from the other nations, that wish to maintain the status quo.

[Campbellk8105]

Forgive me for my inexperience, but reading astral projection. It says your body remains on the material plane and another one is formed on the astral plane. Since the astral plane touches all other planes, you can travel to any plane and manifest a "new" body there leaving the old in suspended animation.

Is creating your own demiplane via genesis considered to be on the material plane?

Ive recently stumbled upon the idea of using genesis to make my own plane and live there, I'm just slightly confused on astral projection.

As for the input on how to stop people from getting in, ive got nothing. All I could say is indeed have good minions defenders for your realm.

[Urpriest]

Forgive me for my inexperience, but reading astral projection. It says your body remains on the material plane and another one is formed on the astral plane. Since the astral plane touches all other planes, you can travel to any plane and manifest a "new" body there leaving the old in suspended animation.

Is creating your own demiplane via genesis considered to be on the material plane?

Ive recently stumbled upon the idea of using genesis to make my own plane and live there, I'm just slightly confused on astral projection.

As for the input on how to stop people from getting in, ive got nothing. All I could say is indeed have good minions defenders for your realm.

The general consensus is that the mention of the material plane is because that's the most likely starting point, and you can start on any plane that touches the Astral. That said, you may have discovered a new obnoxious RAW restriction. Well done if so, it's hard to find new ones after all these years.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Just cast planar bubble or use a acorn of far travel before casting astral projection, easily avoiding the problem.

[Alleran]

The general consensus is that the mention of the material plane is because that's the most likely starting point, and you can start on any plane that touches the Astral. That said, you may have discovered a new obnoxious RAW restriction. Well done if so, it's hard to find new ones after all these years.
How would this affect extraplanar creatures that have Astral Projection as a spell-like ability, though? Or is "Material Plane" meant to reference the home plane of the user? Even if you create a demiplane, it still wouldn't be the Material Plane, so a spellcaster will be odds-on for calling the Material Plane their home plane.

Unless, of course, you specify when creating it that as per the ability to "determine the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize" that the desire you choose to visualise is that the demiplane is treated exactly as if you were on the Material Plane.

Would that get around it?

[Dazed&Confused]

Yes, but the Wierdstone is poorly defined. It doesn't explicitly say whether or not it bypasses line of effect, for instance. If it does, you're going to have problems opening the doors to enter or leave yourself - as there's no defined method for turning the silly thing off.

Wouldn't putting it in a Bag of Holding turn it "off"?

[motoko's ghost]

Make sure someone in your employ is a spy who will leak the details of your demiplane to your enemies.

Rent a small yet pleasant house in sigil with some anti-divination wards.

laugh as your enemies grind themselves to dust invading a demiplane looking for you.

:tongue:

Seriously at epic levels your opponents and you can do anything they can think of, you have to out-think them to win.

[rgd20]

I'd like to shift this to PF if you don't mind....

the spell line Create demiplane (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/createDemiplane.html#_create-demiplane,-lesser), gives the duration as instantaneous (for altering a preexisting demiplane) or a 1day/lvl for creation with from scratch.

it then says it can be made permanent with permancy (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/permanency.html#_permanency).


How on Earth (or on Ethereal if you prefer) do I prevent someone waltzing up and dispelling/ disjoining the permanancy?

[Darkomn]

If there really is no defense against people wishing themselves or their allies into your plane, then the only thing you can do is make sure they don't know about it.

Better yet make two planes (while protected from scying and divination) call one of them "Definitely Not X's Own Personal Plane" (this will be where you and your pets live), and "X's Own Personal Plane". Then make "X's Own Personal Plane" a very bad place to visit: made of anti-matter, lava, sharks, time trait so one round in that plane is 10^308 years in the material plane, etc... Now because they can't scy when on "Definitely Not X's Own Personal Plane" (however you do that) they can't prove you even have one, but even if they only assume you do and wish to be teleported to the generic X's plane they will end up in "X's Own Personal Plane" because it makes the most sense and because wish isn't a friendly kinda of spell.

[Campbellk8105]

Looking at planar traits. Wouldn't the Static trait stop someone from affecting you?

These planes are unchanging. Visitors cannot affect living residents of the plane, nor objects that the denizens possess. Any spells that would affect those on the plane have no effect unless the plane’s static trait is somehow removed or suppressed. Spells cast before entering a plane with the static trait remain in effect, however.



That said, would you not be a resident of your own plane or would there have to be more you have to do with this for it to work?

[Jack_Simth]

Wouldn't putting it in a Bag of Holding turn it "off"?
Yes & no.

For most purposes, a bag of holding is another (very small!) plane... which means you'd have to planar travel the thing that blocks planar travel to get it in the bag of holding... and if you managed that, you'd pretty much need a Wish to get it back out.

[Campbellk8105]

For most purposes, a bag of holding is another (very small!) plane... which means you'd have to planar travel the thing that blocks planar travel to get it in the bag of holding... and if you managed that, you'd pretty much need a Wish to get it back out.

But as one of the earlier people said, if they do the solar trap or whatever, then the solar could do it no problem since it could use wish to get it back out. Same if they got a zodar/efreeti or what not yes?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wish that your demiplane is unable to be Wished to.

[Psyren]

Wish that your demiplane is unable to be Wished to.

That would not only invoke the DM-screw clause (for being an unlisted effect), but also constitute a "local condition."

[sreservoir]

put loads of otherwise-ignorable creatures all over your plane that have crafted contingent spell: if a creature which is neither a [creature] nor the crafter of the contingent spell is within range, plane shift them elsewhere?

[Urpriest]

put loads of otherwise-ignorable creatures all over your plane that have crafted contingent spell: if a creature which is neither a [creature] nor the crafter of the contingent spell is within range, plane shift them elsewhere?

Well in that case might as well just make traps to get people out. Might even be cheaper. Mythal abuse could also do it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That would not only invoke the DM-screw clause (for being an unlisted effect), but also constitute a "local condition."

Make it a global condition that wishes everywhere cannot be used to get to your place. It's not a local condition, it's a global one.

As far as the DM-Screw clause, I disagree. To whit: it states that the DM-Screw clause activates if you attempt to use it to produce effects greater than the ones listed. Wishing that wishes don't work to get to your place is no greater than wishing to get somewhere. It doesn't block extradimensional travel, it doesn't block anything except using a Wish to get there. In that regard, it's shockingly limited in scope.

[Campbellk8105]

Make it a global condition that wishes everywhere cannot be used to get to your place. It's not a local condition, it's a global one.

Isn't it considered a local condition regardless if you try to use wish to stop other people from wishing themselves in?

If you make your place so that other cannot wish themselves there, then it's a local condition to your plane that others can't simply wish themselves there. It still being a local condition, it makes it still technically not work.

Or, am I missing something?

[Psyren]

Make it a global condition that wishes everywhere cannot be used to get to your place. It's not a local condition, it's a global one.

So now you are Wishing to alter the Wish spell itself. This is very clearly out-of-bounds.


As far as the DM-Screw clause, I disagree. To whit: it states that the DM-Screw clause activates if you attempt to use it to produce effects greater than the ones listed. Wishing that wishes don't work to get to your place is no greater than wishing to get somewhere.

You can Wish to protect your plane, no problem. But that becomes a local effect, which Wish then ignores, by RAW.

[JohnDaBarr]

If it's your plane, can you just set that the air is toxic for uninvited beings, that the gravity is so much stronger for them, and that the local wildlife hates them really bad (by wildlife I mean mindraped daemons and dragons disguised as fluffy bunnies and sweat chipmunks and a badger..... because badgers) :smallbiggrin:

[Campbellk8105]

No one commented on the Static planar trait I mentioned earlier, so I suppose I shall mention it again that it says you can't interfere with the residents of the plane.

So are you a resident of your own created plane or no? If so, I'd think that it should work then.

[Urpriest]

No one commented on the Static planar trait I mentioned earlier, so I suppose I shall mention it again that it says you can't interfere with the residents of the plane.

So are you a resident of your own created plane or no? If so, I'd think that it should work then.

I'd imagine residency is determined the same way it is for states. Register your car there, pay rent, that sort of thing.

[motoko's ghost]

Have the enterance to your demiplane be above the ground high enough that they can see the phrase "ha ha got you" carved in massive letters on the ground, they'll probably curse you for tricking them and go to find your real demiplane.
Laugh in your completely underground bunker.:smalltongue:

[Alleran]

Have the enterance to your demiplane be above the ground high enough that they can see the phrase "ha ha got you" carved in massive letters on the ground, they'll probably curse you for tricking them and go to find your real demiplane.
Use the phrase with Explosive Runes.

[motoko's ghost]

Use the phrase with Explosive Runes.

6d6 dmg in a 20ft radius from letters that big? or individual letters? that could actually do decent amount of damage. of course at this point in the game you really could research an hi-lv/epic version:smallamused: big boom or shooting fell-draining lightning or something like that.

[Alleran]

6d6 dmg in a 20ft radius from letters that big? or individual letters? that could actually do decent amount of damage. of course at this point in the game you really could research an hi-lv/epic version:smallamused: big boom or shooting fell-draining lightning or something like that.
It's not so much the damage as it is adding injury to insult.

[kardar233]

My way:

Take Leadership, be a Thrallherd or otherwise get a whole bunch of low-level mooks devoted to you. Make sure they're Warforged. Manifest a Microcosm on them, put them in a 60ft box of Riverine with a Reverse Gravity trap and a Disjunction trap. Use Suggestion or similar to convince them to stock the dream plane with the most powerful creatures they can imagine (you can help them along by giving them ideas for creatures; I prefer Neutronium Golems with Epic Spellcasting). Throw the box into a black hole. Add scrying protection to taste.

You need to be within 30ft of the target to Dream Walk into their dreams, so that means you have to use Reverse Gravity to get within 30ft of the singularity. As soon as you Disintegrate the box to get close enough to Dream Walk, the Disjunction trap triggers, disjoining your Reverse Gravity and reducing you to an infinitesimal point, with only mass and spin as variables. Even if you get in, you still have to deal with the most powerful creatures that 163 Warforged brains can come up with (with some helping of your own, of course).

Basically, the only way in is to be a Cheater, really lucky or fine with throwing bodies at the wall till they stick. After that, you actually have to get through the place. Have fun.

[motoko's ghost]

It's not so much the damage as it is adding injury to insult.

Its not so much that as it is aiding the bluff that this is just a "spare demiplane" :smalltongue: you have rerouted your "aura"or whatever it is divinations sense to.

[Ingus]

Planar architect on duty! :smalltongue:

My three steps design to have a comfortable demiplane

Step One
Craft a demiplane with a space no greater than 5ft per your caster level (see Anticipate Teleportation, Greater). The rest could be rock, but bonus points for nasty stuff (like a huge forcecage filled with captived demons, antimagic, lava and a magic operating vuvuzelas for bonus harm)
Then decorate your room with the finest furnitures and a couple of magical defenses (you don't need to go far away for inspiration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)). Bonus points for adding mindless constructs and/or undead as guards. They're mindless, so they don't spoil your secrets, and they may result useful.
If you want, you may arrange all the rest in a dungeon shape. You crawled much of them, so you may have learned a bit of reverse dungeenering.

Step Two
Get advantage. Instead of blocking plane shift and such, you can earn a clear advantage. Cast (or craft an item that continuously grants you) Anticipate Teleportation, Greater (Complete Arcane) every day. If 3 full rounds of advantage against your enemies don't give you the edge in combat or the chance to run, you probably don't deserve the kind of power you have.
This may (RAI) or may not (RAW) apply to Gate spells. If your DM says it doesn't, you still can ban gates for your demiplane.
(FYI, this does appy to plane shift and greater plane shift, since that spells are of teleportation subschool).

Step Three
Yes, your enemies can wish themselves in. In my opinion (=if I was your DM) you can't do anything about it.
Except, of course, outsmart them.
Lay on all your created structure except two spaces a mass of Energy Transformation Field spells (Magic of Faerun, duration: permanent) linked to Mage's Disjunction. The Field transforms any casting in "stored spell levels": when the spell levels equal the spell level of the linked spell, the field casts that spell as if the caster were you.
This works like this: enemies wish in, then if they attack with spells, slas or sop, theyr attacks are converted in stored levels. If you've the wisdom to cast yourself in the fields to give any fields 8 levels stored, the next time any creature casts in any field, it is self disjoint itself.
To your stay area, set instead a Reaving Dispel (Complete Arcane) spell linked to the field. It has the bonus of dispelling enemies and buffing you, while, unless Mage's Disjunction, the artifacts are unaffected.
If you're smart, you may leave a single area out of this, useful to you to buff yourself or sling spells to your enemies. This, however, leave open a great design problem: how avoid your enemies to wish in the "open" zone or to exploit it themselves. This, my young apprentice (kiddin'), is up to you.
Oh, and one last thing: be sure to have casted Foresight, so you're never flatfooted.

Designer's note
Energy Transformation Field does not interrupt line of effect, nor impede spell function in its range. So if you cast Anticipate Teleportation, Greater before entering in this space, you still can have the warning effect active.

...so?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually... there's a rules error here...

Wish allows SR. Thus it cannot be applied within an AMF.

However, it allows you to teleport into an area, ignoring local restrictions, including an AMF, which it cannot, itself, bypass...

[Ingus]

Actually... there's a rules error here...

Wish allows SR. Thus it cannot be applied within an AMF.

However, it allows you to teleport into an area, ignoring local restrictions, including an AMF, which it cannot, itself, bypass...

If you're talking to me, then...

You're right saying that AMF will not impede wish to teleport in enemies. But this is not the point. The point is, instead, that Energy Transformation Field doesn't allow enemies to cast and has the side effect of disjunction if tried (so mass and nasty debuff on their face).
So, if the clever inhabitant of our demiplane has managed to carve a space in where he can cast and enemies can't use (or find a way Spellguard of Silverymoon to be unaffected by the Energy Transformation Field) he has a clear advantage.
You may have noticed, it is suggested to have mindless bodyguards, so a physical assoult may be managed by them.
In the end, this plan is far away to be completed, but it is left to the user to figure out holes.

...either this, or I've failed to understand you.

If you're not, then... nice samurai on your signature, by the way :smalltongue:

[WebTiefling]

How about this? Take Ingus' idea of Anticipate Teleportation, Greater and tweak it a bit.

Every time it anticipates an incoming teleportation, fill every last inch of the demiplane with adamantium, and cast an Adamantium Xorn movement (or whatever) on yourself.

Teleport cannot drop someone into solid material, and so the incoming people would fail with a mishap. I don't know how this would combine with Wish's teleport, but as a DM I would rule it to misfire like a teleport. (or I could be a nasty DM and say a Wish Teleport drops them off entirely encased in adamantium, unable to breath, speak, or move at all, which cuts out every possible spell)

[WebTiefling]

Or, take the same thing, and just to add a bit of nastiness, have spells trigger to cast AMF right around where the incoming teleport will arrive. Between not being able to move, not being able to speak, and having an AMF in place, the invaders should be pretty well screwed.

Just to add insult to injury, instead of filling everything with adamantium, fill it with worked stone that has been acid-etched in 3D all throughout with the words of your particular insult and make the words glow.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you're talking to me, then...

You're right saying that AMF will not impede wish to teleport in enemies. But this is not the point. The point is, instead, that Energy Transformation Field doesn't allow enemies to cast and has the side effect of disjunction if tried (so mass and nasty debuff on their face).
So, if the clever inhabitant of our demiplane has managed to carve a space in where he can cast and enemies can't use (or find a way Spellguard of Silverymoon to be unaffected by the Energy Transformation Field) he has a clear advantage.
You may have noticed, it is suggested to have mindless bodyguards, so a physical assoult may be managed by them.
In the end, this plan is far away to be completed, but it is left to the user to figure out holes.

...either this, or I've failed to understand you.

If you're not, then... nice samurai on your signature, by the way :smalltongue:

I was actually referring to the Rules Fail of a Wish spell being unable to function despite being able to function because even though it ignores local conditions, it still can't function within an AMF. If you don't run LINT to catch this logic glitch, then you're likely to crash the whole continuity and force a hard reset.

And yea... all I can say in my defense about Takahashi is that Test of Spite made me do it. I've got a few builds like that floating around... like the UPS man who never needs to pick up the dice.

[Psyren]

You can't cast Wish from within an AMF; nobody was saying you could. But asking it to drop you into one isn't the same thing, because you are outside (and thus have magic) prior to being transported.

You merely need to find another way out once you get there. (Or have someone on the outside pull you out with another Wish.)

[Shadowleaf]

How about this? Take Ingus' idea of Anticipate Teleportation, Greater and tweak it a bit.

Every time it anticipates an incoming teleportation, fill every last inch of the demiplane with adamantium, and cast an Adamantium Xorn movement (or whatever) on yourself.

Teleport cannot drop someone into solid material, and so the incoming people would fail with a mishap. I don't know how this would combine with Wish's teleport, but as a DM I would rule it to misfire like a teleport. (or I could be a nasty DM and say a Wish Teleport drops them off entirely encased in adamantium, unable to breath, speak, or move at all, which cuts out every possible spell)RAW-wise, I'm pretty sure nothing stops you from Wish-transporting yourself into solid matter (argueably also a "local condition", which Wish specifically ignores).

Also, there're plenty of ways to cast spells without somatic or verbal components. And if you're high enough level to consider attacking a Wizard on his own plane, you probably aren't breathing anymore (or at least shouldn't be).

[WebTiefling]

RAW-wise, I'm pretty sure nothing stops you from Wish-transporting yourself into solid matter (argueably also a "local condition", which Wish specifically ignores).

Also, there're plenty of ways to cast spells without somatic or verbal components. And if you're high enough level to consider attacking a Wizard on his own plane, you probably aren't breathing anymore (or at least shouldn't be).

Yeah, I can see it transporting someone there, but at the very least they would be entirely encased in adamantium.

There are very few ways to cast spells without either verbal OR somatic OR component parts. I can't think of any spells that don't have at least one of those things. A person could probably take a feat chain to do all that, but that would need to be a very specific and very weird sort of chain to take.

If they know it's coming, a wizard/sorcerer can prepare for it with contingency spells, but it's going to be a deadly nasty surprise for anyone who doesn't know it's coming.

[Psyren]

A Psion, on the other hand, can transport just as easily (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) but only be mildly inconvenienced by the inability to move/speak.

[Ingus]

I love to think the oppositors to be encassed in adamantium.
Just hilarious
This is also why "regardless of local conditions" should be taken with a pinch of salt,IMO.

[Psyren]

I love to think the oppositors to be encassed in adamantium.
Just hilarious
This is also why "regardless of local conditions" should be taken with a pinch of salt,IMO.

Subtlety is not Wish/RR's forte. (Or any 9th, really :smalltongue:)

[Hirax]

This discussion is starting to make me wonder if it's even worth having a demi plane. An extradimensional space seems as secure, if not more secure, if you can live with recasting an extended Mordenkainen's capable caravel every month, burning down the ship so only the entrance to the extradimensional dwelling remains if desired.

[Alleran]

An extradimensional space seems as secure, if not more secure, if you can live with recasting an extended Mordenkainen's capable caravel every month, burning down the ship so only the entrance to the extradimensional dwelling remains if desired.
Wish could probably still break through it. That's the problem. It will take you anywhere, regardless of local conditions. One of the things that makes having a demiplane so very worth it is that you can design the planar traits to most suit you. Want Fast Healing and true resurrection every 24 hours, for free? You can do that. Want ridiculous time traits? You can do that too.

[Hirax]

I know wish could still break in, I was factoring out planar traits in my assumption that Mord's mansion and caravel would be just as good. Not every DM is going to let you have free reign with traits, which makes the exp cost hard to justify if you're just looking for a safe place to spend 8 hours recovering spells or astrally project.

[fryplink]

Make it hard to perform the wish? Have multiple genesis planes, wish for your identity to be constantly erased from the minds of low level non-family (making it difficult to organize opposition). If you have 5 Demiplanes and an active rope trick and someone utters the wish " I wish I was in McUberMage's demiplane" if, god forbid his wish was actually granted. Boy that would be an awful mess to clean up. If the enemy is thinking perhaps he wishes "I wish i was in one of MUM's demiplane's", now he is running an 80% chance of ending up in a 6 mile plane with a time trait combo that kills him when he leaves. (think, like the astral plane only 600 years pass in the first minute, so when you leave all that time catches up with you)

Jokes aside, the best barrier isn't in making it impossible to arrive, but making the arrival a one time deal. Couple that with the memory wish and it gets hard to pin down that there are traps of explosive runes that reset themselves plastered to every flat surface.

Or, even better, have someone else cast genesis for you to your specifications. And then cast one yourself. Live in the other one, kill it's maker and bind his soul, keeping it within his own plane. Now the wish "Send me to MUM's demiplane" sends him to the plane of falling boulders. Build a home in your plane and live in a tent in the other one and then wishes using words like "where he lives" or "the plane that contains his home" become screwy.

[Alleran]

wish for your identity to be constantly erased from the minds of low level non-family (making it difficult to organize opposition).
That's outside the parameters for a successful wish, and is subject to DM adjudication.

[2xMachina]

Wish to counter-wish the next wish to teleport into your plane. And sound an alarm too.

Can be a pretty expensive wish war...

[fryplink]

That's outside the parameters for a successful wish, and is subject to DM adjudication.

true enough, figured someone would say that when I wrote it. Even if it only effected 10% of the 1HD human population it would be worth it. Even if it didn't work at all the larger point still stands. Use your vast magical resources to to make it difficult to organize opposition. Geas a few people to spread some false rumors about you in a land they aren't exposed to often, then leave before Geas expires. Make your true identity hard to pin down. The Bar tender needs to think that your deeds were done by 10 different people and that you've done things someone else did. Now information on your planes is unreliable and they've heard things they know to be false from sources and the sources can't even get their stories straight.

[Marnath]

This works like this: enemies wish in, then if they attack with spells, slas or sop, theyr attacks are converted in stored levels. If you've the wisdom to cast yourself in the fields to give any fields 8 levels stored, the next time any creature casts in any field, it is self disjoint itself.


you can't disjoin yourself.


*excerpt*All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.

Would you technically be "touching" your buffs since you're inside their area of effect?

[motoko's ghost]

could the memory-erasing be accomplished by vecna-blooded?

[Psyren]

true enough, figured someone would say that when I wrote it. Even if it only effected 10% of the 1HD human population it would be worth it. Even if it didn't work at all the larger point still stands. Use your vast magical resources to to make it difficult to organize opposition. Geas a few people to spread some false rumors about you in a land they aren't exposed to often, then leave before Geas expires. Make your true identity hard to pin down. The Bar tender needs to think that your deeds were done by 10 different people and that you've done things someone else did. Now information on your planes is unreliable and they've heard things they know to be false from sources and the sources can't even get their stories straight.

Once you're level 11 or higher (which you must be if you're going around making demiplanes) it becomes very hard to hide your actions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) The universe itself keeps track of you at that point. (This threshold is also reinforced in Tome of Magic.)

And again, not only can a Psion also show up on your demiplane, he can also track you like a bloodhound regardless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) of precautions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)

[motoko's ghost]

Once you're level 11 or higher (which you must be if you're going around making demiplanes) it becomes very hard to hide your actions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) The universe itself keeps track of you at that point. (This threshold is also reinforced in Tome of Magic.)

And again, not only can a Psion also show up on your demiplane, he can also track you like a bloodhound regardless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) of precautions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)

doesnt vecna-blooded block all of those though?

[Ingus]

you can't disjoin yourself.
Would you technically be "touching" your buffs since you're inside their area of effect?

Now, it is difficult to answer you because to be cristal clear I would have to post here the plain text of the Energy Transformation Field spell (which I can't, and besides I won't).
So, I try with examples.
ETF does this: in a 60 ft radius centered on a place in the space, any spell, sla or sop cast inside it doesn't work and its power is automatically stored in the ETF. Spells and slas are stored with a number equal to their spell level (1 for Magic Missile, 3 for Fireball, 6 for Disintegrate and so on), sop are converted in a way I don't remember.
Those levels are stored in the ETF. When cast, you bind the ETF to a single, specific spell. When the stored levels equal the level of the spell you bind the ETF to, the ETF automatically casts that spell.

To make my plan work, you cast the ETF, commanding to cast Mage Disjunction when "full". Then, you go into the ETF and let it absorb your spells till you reach 8 stored spell levels (8 magic missiles will work for this example). This way, anytime anyone cast any spell in the ETF, the ETF itself will absorb the spell and automatic cast a Mage Disjunction.
As a result, your invader loses his surprise round, all his buffs and possibly any item carried.
Then you (hopefully buffed at very least with your daylong buffs and full of magic items) and your (zero level equipment and zero level buffs) invader roll initiative.
I wonder who's gonna win :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

doesnt vecna-blooded block all of those though?

Do you mean "can I acquire enough blood from Vecna's aspect to bathe in, solve the Seven Riddles of Vecna, be subjected to torture and ordeals in the Oubliette of Secrets, and emerge victorious?" Yes, doing all of that would make you immune to divinations, at least so long as you avoided antimagic or dead magic areas. And even then, Vecna himself retains all the information too and can still be asked your whereabouts.

I'm also not sure whether those templates are transparent to psionics, but the other stuff is obstacle enough I'd say.

[motoko's ghost]

Yeah, vecna's a skeleton, how do you get blood from it?

[Psyren]

Yeah, vecna's a skeleton, how do you get blood from it?

I think his aspect would be an Outsider - but lacking stats for it I can't be sure. It would be pretty dastardly of him to actually make it impossible to gain his template though.

EDIT: Scratch that, his aspect is in DaD, and it is indeed undead. Clever lich, nobody can actually gain his template :smalltongue:

[gbprime]

I think his aspect would be an Outsider - but lacking stats for it I can't be sure. It would be pretty dastardly of him to actually make it impossible to gain his template though.

EDIT: Scratch that, his aspect is in DaD, and it is indeed undead. Clever lich, nobody can actually gain his template :smalltongue:

Oh there's a way... but it's a SECRET. :smallbiggrin:

[Demonic_Spoon]

Spark of life + knife=BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD?

[Ingus]

Spark of life + knife=BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD?

Respectfully...
If you can be at the range of touch, actually touch, pass the SR, make fail the ST and then stab Vecna... why in the multiverse would you fear someone bursting in your demiplane?
"I stabbed Vecna, but take your chance if you want to" gives a +100 bonus to intimidate checks, providing it is true.

[motoko's ghost]

Actually you probably could get some blood of him, you'd just need one of those really big lemon juicers and a couple of meat-shields respected party members to hold him down.:smalltongue:

[the_insomniac]

actually, planar forks aren't in any spell component pouch. look at the spell lists for cleric and wizard. find plane shift. see the little "f" after the name of the spell? AND, notice that in the spell description it doesn't say "f/df", it just says "f", so even the cleric version needs the forks. what im wondering is whether or not the psionic version does. i know powers dont tend to use components, but i cant find anything saying that they CANT. and the psionic version says it works just like the spell except where noted, and nowhere does it note that the manifester dictates the plane traveled to. in the spell description, it clearly states that the size and type of fork dictates the plane traveled to. and since sla's work just like the spell unless otherwise noted, i would imagine that gith and coatl have the same problem as psions: they still need the fork for the plane they want to go to. ha. ha. sigil could hand out forks to the beastlands like hunting licenses :D and maybe there are only so many in existence.....

[Bobby Baratheon]

Why bother protecting your demiplane when you can resurrect threads to do it for you?

[the_insomniac]

got a response outta YOU, so...

[Âmesang]

It'd help quoting this particular passage. :smalltongue:

"An M or F appearing at the end of a spell's name in the spell list denotes a spell with a material or focus component, respectively, that is not normally included in a spell component pouch.

[icefractal]

Wish is pretty hard to beat, with that "regardless of local conditions" clause. One possibility is to make there be no physical space for an intruder to occupy.

1) Make your demiplane a 10' cube, exactly.
2) Intelligent gelatinous cube minion.
3) Give it an amulet of natural attacks (Ghost Touch) so its whole body blocks incorporeal creatures.
4) Give it some way to shrink on demand, and an interplanar telepathic link to yourself.
5) When you want to visit the demiplane, tell it to shrink itself. Otherwise, it stays full size and there's nowhere that another creature could even fit.
6) Give it a very high Will save so someone else can't Wish it out of the plane.

Now I'm not actually sure what the interaction of this with Wish would be, but at the least it creates an impossible situation that there's a decent argument for resolving in favor of "even Wish doesn't get you there".