Was Kubota right?

[dancrilis]

Just rereading the comic again and noted something that I consider every time I see page 414 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html).

Kubota suggests just giving Xykon what he wants*.

On consideration would this have actually been a better move for Azure City then opposing him.

The result would be that the city would have fallen, Xykon would be the new lord, the goblins would likely be in charge (baring some possible exceptions), so very similar to how it is currently.
All without a needless and costly war.

The humans may in fact have slightly better standing, as Xykon (and even Redcloak to an extent) seems more focused on a merit then on other characteristics, and relations with other nations may be better.

Further the gate would be intact and so the universe would be that much safer.

It seems that there would have been no real negatives and some positives to simply surrendering, for the city.

*I understand that Kubota likely did not know that the above would be the price for giving Xykon what he wanted.

[t209]

Just rereading the comic again and noted something that I consider every time I see page 414 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html).

Kubota suggests just giving Xykon what he wants*.

On consideration would this have actually been a better move for Azure City then opposing him.

The result would be that the city would have fallen, Xykon would be the new lord, the goblins would likely be in charge (baring some possible exceptions), so very similar to how it is currently.
All without a needless and costly war.

The humans may in fact have slightly better standing, as Xykon (and even Redcloak to an extent) seems more focused on a merit then on other characteristics, and relations with other nations may be better.

Further the gate would be intact and so the universe would be that much safer.

It seems that there would have been no real negatives and some positives to simply surrendering, for the city.

*I understand that Kubota likely did not know that the above would be the price for giving Xykon what he wanted.

He was not right since he's just a coward and Xykon is a murderous soceror who wants more blood spilled than getting the city.

[Kish]

Xykon and Redcloak would have completed the ritual a long time ago now. Whatever the ritual actually does, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that would be a very bad thing for, at best, everyone who isn't a goblinoid.

[DaveMcW]

Yes, Kubota would be better off as a lawful evil noble in a world ruled by Xykon.

The rest of the world would be screwed of course. If it wasn't destroyed in the ritual.

[Mutant Sheep]

Kubota suggests just giving Xykon what he wants*.

On consideration would this have actually been a better move for Azure City then opposing him.
Further the gate would be intact and so the universe would be that much safer.
So having the high priest of the massive army that you just surrendered to do a ritual with an evil lich to blackmail your gods into creating a world where goblins rule supreme/or universe being unmade would be better than what happened? If Miko just didnt smash the gate, Redcloak and Xykon would both be dead, the goblins would only have cool bearded hobgoblin general around to lead them, and Belkar would die killing the rest of the hobgoblins. I don't see how it could be better, especially since I doubt Xykon would be just "Haha, sure thing. Peace, not murder, paladins get to live and everything". He'd just kill everyone and do the ritual with Redcloak anyways.

Edit: Ninja'd by shorter and more coherent posts. :smallredface:

[eulmanis12]

Kubota was wrong.

That being said, getting out of the way and letting Xycon march straight into the throne room would have worked fairly well. Soon would just kick his butt. The paladins would send someone in with a broom and dustpan to take care of what was left, and life could procede as normal.

[Steward]

I think Xykon's own army would have complicated the situation with the Ghost Paladins. Soon and his people were extremely strong but I think the sheer weight of Xykon's entire horde would have worn them down, and given Xykon an opportunity to attack.

I do think that Kubota was wrong too though. He didn't know that Azure City would lose; they might have even won if he and the other nobles hadn't withdrawn their soldiers and if Miko hadn't stopped Soon from vanquishing Xykon. He was basing his advice solely on his own craven self-interest rather than on any real knowledge that things would definitely be better if Xykon had won without a fight.

[Heksefatter]

Xykon and Redcloak would have taken the gate, unopposed, almost certainly resulting in them seizing control of an unharmed gate. They would also occupy Azure City, since they would need the time to research the ritual and all that. There would be no battle, but the goblins would have reduced the city into slavery anyway, entailing countless massacres.

End result:

- Almost as many of Azure City's inhabitants would die.

- Humans of Azure City reduced into slavery.

- Xykon a greater threat to the rest of the world. Not to mention Redcloak, the Dark One and so forth.

[NerfTW]

.... *snip a full page of dissertation on one statement*


So you do realize that Xykon wanted the gate, right? And that the gate was destroyed in the battle? Had he simply been handed the gate, the ritual would have been completed and the Dark One's plan to hold the gods hostage would have been enacted. Or, well, reality would have been ripped asunder. Either way, totally NOT an acceptable outcome, and nowhere near the same as the city being under enemy control.

Remember that Redcloak KNOWS the ritual. The only reason Tsukiko is researching it is because Xykon wants to cut Redcloak out of the equation, and Redcloak only gave him half the spell. Working together with a gate, Redcloak and Xykon can immediately begin the binding ritual, no research needed. It's the creation of a gate around the rift that they can't do.

[dancrilis]

Well on the ritual, we have no idea what it really will do.
But if the plan goes as Redcloak seems to expect under a best case scenario, then the different playing field for goblins would not make a difference to the situation.

On the paladins, they would likely have been killed, Redcloak has a problem with them, but they died anyway.

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.

Xykon has also shown a willingness to work with people, in fact it is even mentioned that the only reason that he was bothering with an invasion was because they needed access to the gate.

I had not considered this at the time of posting, but Redcloak didn't care about hobgoblins when the idea of surrender was proposed, the humans may have even not be delegated to slaves under this new system, having equality of the races under Xykon and Redcloak.

Now I am not saying that Kubota understood all this, or that he was speaking from the wisdom, in fact I believe that Kubota would have been more likely to turn on Hinjo and claim that he was weak so he could lead the battle and claim the city, but his motives are irrelevant to the idea.

So far most of the negatives about the plan are focused on the ritual, a ritual which might have no immediate impact on the majority of the populace.

Other then that they have been on Xykon being less then pleasant to people, yet he offered Roy the chance to leave (a number of times), it is possible that he could have been negotiated with to have the city evacuated, or any number of other concessions.
Would he have honoured them?
That would be subject to his mood at the time (I would say).

However he has not be slaughtering hobgoblins left and right, so he might be actually interested in a position of power without the responsibility, providing he is in charge he seems happy enough to let other people run things.

Xykon is out to conquer the world, not destroy it or kill everyone, rule it, letting him do so might very well work out better then opposing him and having him seize it.

[Heksefatter]

So you do realize that Xykon wanted the gate, right? And that the gate was destroyed in the battle? Had he simply been handed the gate, the ritual would have been completed and the Dark One's plan to hold the gods hostage would have been enacted. Or, well, reality would have been ripped asunder. Either way, totally NOT an acceptable outcome, and nowhere near the same as the city being under enemy control.

Remember that Redcloak KNOWS the ritual. The only reason Tsukiko is researching it is because Xykon wants to cut Redcloak out of the equation, and Redcloak only gave him half the spell. Working together with a gate, Redcloak and Xykon can immediately begin the binding ritual, no research needed. It's the creation of a gate around the rift that they can't do.

A question that may well be born of my ignorance:

Why didn't they just complete the ritual while at Durokan's gate? I thought they needed more, even back then.

[dancrilis]

A question that may well be born of my ignorance:

Why didn't they just complete the ritual while at Durokan's gate? I thought they needed more, even back then.

The gates were protected differently, Durokan's was sealed Xykon needed a way around the seal
277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

[King of Nowhere]

1) if they gave Xykon the intact gate, xykon would have probably completed the ritual

2) they could not know beforehand that they would lose, and they tougth they stood a fair chance.

Incidentally, analysis of that forum agreed instead that they were pretty much screwed up because Xykon alone could have destroied the city. By letting himself be isolated by redcloak and going, low in hp and spells, toe-to-toe with the only charachter presenting a threath to him, Xykon almost managed the ONLY possible way team evil could have lost the day. Remember, Soon could not have sougth him in he battlefield. Xykon could have gone out of the throne room at any moment and be perfectly safe. Anyway, the azurites did not know that.

According to this, the best option for the azurites would have been to just blow the gate. Xykon would have lost interest in it, so with some luck the city would have been spared.
Without some luck, redcloak would have convinced xykon to destroy the city anyway, oor xykon would have done it for fun, because he already brougth the army in place...

[Heksefatter]

The gates were protected differently, Durokan's was sealed Xykon needed a way around the seal
277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

Nice attention to detail. Thank you!

[Dr.Epic]

Are you actually saying it would have been better to give the insane, crazy, villain exactly what they wanted to spare one battle which instead would most definitely have lead to torment on a global if not cosmic scale?:smallconfused:

[Belril Duskwalk]

A question that may well be born of my ignorance:

Why didn't they just complete the ritual while at Durokan's gate? I thought they needed more, even back then.

Judging by this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) the Gate was probably bound by a spell that could only be broken by a "pure-hearted" person, similar to how the Sigil's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) locked the Talisman away. Thus, Redcloak and Xykon couldn't perform the ritual until they unlocked the physical gates around the meta-physical gate.

[Cranica]

Given his limited information, as much of a **** as he is, I think he actually was. Kubota didn't know about what the Gates do, or even about the Gates themselves; in light of that simply surrendering against hostile odds isn't such a bad idea. Of course, with all the facts, it would have been stupid; Kubota didn't have them.

[Vahir]

Well on the ritual, we have no idea what it really will do.
But if the plan goes as Redcloak seems to expect under a best case scenario, then the different playing field for goblins would not make a difference to the situation.

On the paladins, they would likely have been killed, Redcloak has a problem with them, but they died anyway.

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.

Xykon has also shown a willingness to work with people, in fact it is even mentioned that the only reason that he was bothering with an invasion was because they needed access to the gate.

I had not considered this at the time of posting, but Redcloak didn't care about hobgoblins when the idea of surrender was proposed, the humans may have even not be delegated to slaves under this new system, having equality of the races under Xykon and Redcloak.

Now I am not saying that Kubota understood all this, or that he was speaking from the wisdom, in fact I believe that Kubota would have been more likely to turn on Hinjo and claim that he was weak so he could lead the battle and claim the city, but his motives are irrelevant to the idea.

So far most of the negatives about the plan are focused on the ritual, a ritual which might have no immediate impact on the majority of the populace.

Other then that they have been on Xykon being less then pleasant to people, yet he offered Roy the chance to leave (a number of times), it is possible that he could have been negotiated with to have the city evacuated, or any number of other concessions.
Would he have honoured them?
That would be subject to his mood at the time (I would say).

However he has not be slaughtering hobgoblins left and right, so he might be actually interested in a position of power without the responsibility, providing he is in charge he seems happy enough to let other people run things.

Xykon is out to conquer the world, not destroy it or kill everyone, rule it, letting him do so might very well work out better then opposing him and having him seize it.

This feels like a troll thread.

I mean, Xykon and redcloak promoting equality? Have we been reading the same comic here?

[Steward]

Honestly, I think the humans of Azure City had more to fear from Redcloak than Xykon in the event of a surrender. Redcloak is a violent racist with a penchant for slavery and mass destruction. He's not wholly unreasonable or sociopathic, but it is not safe to just assume that he'll show mercy to any humans... especially the tribe of humans who tried to destroy his religion and exterminate his own people.

[Whiffet]

By letting himself be isolated by redcloak and going, low in hp and spells, toe-to-toe with the only charachter presenting a threath to him, Xykon almost managed the ONLY possible way team evil could have lost the day.

Just a nitpick: Xykon was not low in hp when he entered the throne room. Yes, Roy managed to damage Xykon a bit, but then Tsukiko joined Team Evil and healed Xykon with Inflict Critical Wounds.

Unless you meant Xykon was low in hp when he was fighting Soon as Redcloak "turned" the ghost-martyrs, in which case... Redcloak used a Harm and healed him before Xykon went one-on-one against Soon.

Again, just a nitpick, nothing too important.

[Tulya]

Xykon doesn't need a reason to slaughter people en masse, and has done so repeatedly. If you complied with him and stuck around at all, you'd be eventually killed for his enjoyment, and then raised as undead. This is a repeated trend for Xykon, and part of a recurring trope that I don't know the name of: You don't make deals with Team Evil.

Even WITH the war intended, the Azurites evacuated as many people as they could, barring selfish nobles like Kubota. And despite that, Hinjo's private junk was extremely full.

By fighting, the Azurites slowed Xykon down and his army down, and could very well have stopped both him and Redcloak once and for all without the reckless arrogance of Miko.
I doubt the occupying Hobgoblin army, minus Xykon and Redcloak, could have withstood a siege by the remaining Azurites and the surviving members of the Order of the Stick. Start each day with some defensive buffs, clear out large swaths of Hobgoblins, retreat, and repeat.

[Morthis]

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.

Odds are Soon wouldn't even be able to by damaged by non-magical weapons, I don't see any real way the goblins coulda worn him down unless the ghost version of Soon still needs to sleep, which I doubt.


Xykon has also shown a willingness to work with people, in fact it is even mentioned that the only reason that he was bothering with an invasion was because they needed access to the gate.

Xykon considers watching people die to be pretty funny and has consistently shown he has absolutely no respect for life. I would not feel even the least bit comfortable yielding to a person like that and praying he'll decide to be nice.


I had not considered this at the time of posting, but Redcloak didn't care about hobgoblins when the idea of surrender was proposed, the humans may have even not be delegated to slaves under this new system, having equality of the races under Xykon and Redcloak.

You think he lets them enslave humans because he cares about hobgoblins? What? How does that even make sense?


So far most of the negatives about the plan are focused on the ritual, a ritual which might have no immediate impact on the majority of the populace.

Yeah, and someone might also survive jumping from the third floor window, doesn't mean we'll be lining up to try. This ritual, at best, gives control of the gate to the dark one, who may use it for equality, or may simply decide that it's their turn to be the favored race and reverse the roles between humans and goblins. At worst the world is simply destroyed entirely, with all souls completely un-made, no afterlife, no nothing.


Other then that they have been on Xykon being less then pleasant to people, yet he offered Roy the chance to leave (a number of times), it is possible that he could have been negotiated with to have the city evacuated, or any number of other concessions.

Yeah Xykon likes to play with his food. Roy's antics really just amused him because they posed absolutely no threat. His offers to let Roy try again didn't come from compassion, or anything of that nature, he just offered that to make things more interesting.


However he has not be slaughtering hobgoblins left and right, so he might be actually interested in a position of power without the responsibility, providing he is in charge he seems happy enough to let other people run things.

He had O'chull to keep him interested, and he may still have killed hobgoblins anyway, no real way to know.

SoD spoiler
While waiting outside Durokan's castle trying to draw him out he also got Right-Eye's entire family (minus the daughter) killed for no other reason than his personal entertainment. It's been quite clear so far that when Xykon is bored, he enjoys killing things to pass the time.


Xykon is out to conquer the world, not destroy it or kill everyone, rule it, letting him do so might very well work out better then opposing him and having him seize it.

He might destroy it if he was really bored, and otherwise I have serious doubts he'd suddenly stop killing things for fun.

SoD again
When he first agreed to go along with this, he was still human and dying wanting a legacy. Ever since he's become a Lich, he's still going along with the plan, but the legacy seems to be less of a concern for him now. It looks to me like now he's just trying to do things to keep himself entertained. I can't imagine how someone can read SoD and think that Xykon would be anything but an abusive and oppressive ruler.

[Steward]

Odds are Soon wouldn't even be able to by damaged by non-magical weapons, I don't see any real way the goblins coulda worn him down unless the ghost version of Soon still needs to sleep, which I doubt.

It's not so much that they would have been wear down Soon (and his team) physically, but their clerics -- of which there are quite a few -- might have been able to rebuke or destroy at least some of the ghost martyrs. This would weaken Soon's advantage (and give Redcloak and Xykon the opportunity to focus entirely on him). It would not have been good news for Soon (and the city, and the world) if the Azure City military had followed Kubota's advice and stood aside and just let Xykon walk in, on the hopes that Soon could kill Xykon, Redcloak, the Monster, and the entire hobgoblin army.


He might destroy it if he was really bored, and otherwise I have serious doubts he'd suddenly stop killing things for fun.

That's an excellent point. Add in that I'm not convinced that Xykon will be able to control the Snarl for all eternity, and honestly, letting him that much power is a bad idea.

[Tulya]

It's not so much that they would have been wear down Soon (and his team) physically, but their clerics -- of which there are quite a few -- might have been able to rebuke or destroy at least some of the ghost martyrs.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

Seems like they might not have been able to. Consecrate probably gives a
-6 sacred penalty to turning positive energy spirits, much like Desecrate with undead. That means the clerics are going to be turning, on average, 2 HD below their turning level. They can try repeatedly, but in the meantime, they'll be slashed up pretty badly.

[jidasfire]

I've always maintained that Hinjo should have let Kubota go talk to Xykon and ask him what he wants. I imagine the conversation would have gone something like this:

Kubota: If you're looking for someone to help you get into the city, I'm your man. Just let me rule it after you're gone and Hinjo's all yours.

Xykon: Sorry, Fu Manchu, I have a better idea.

::Xykon kills Kubota and animates his corpse.::

Redcloak: Sir, we could have used him.

Xykon: Hey, we still can! My keys have been missing for weeks...

After that, the treacherous nobles who were looking for an excuse to back out of the war would probably fallen in behind Hinjo, out of fear for their own safety if nothing else. Would have been one less problem for the Azurites to deal with, and the added soldiers could have made at least a little difference, not to mention no assassination squads on Hinjo during battle.

[Omergideon]

So, in short...............No.

Surrendering to the mass murdering Lich (who kills whenever bored, or when he feels like it, or any other time) and the Evil Goblin Priest (who hates humans with pure hatred) who have a plan to threaten to rip reality asunder with a world destroying thingy unless the Gods back down........................does not seem wise. Even without the plan bit the whole "surrender to the Goblin army with an Epic level sorcerer who probably could solo our regular army and gets bored reeeaal easy" is not the smartest strategy.

[M.A.D]

Since they can't move the gate, giving it to Xykon means giving him the city, allowing an evil mass murderer to walk their streets and enter their homes, along with an army of hobgoblin. More human would have been killed (for Xykon's personal enjoyment and Redcloak's regenve) and they would still occupy the city.

[Dark Matter]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

Seems like they might not have been able to. Consecrate probably gives a
-6 sacred penalty to turning positive energy spirits, much like Desecrate with undead. That means the clerics are going to be turning, on average, 2 HD below their turning level. They can try repeatedly, but in the meantime, they'll be slashed up pretty badly.Redcloak started the Thrown Room battle low on spells and with the wrong spells. With 24 hours notice he casts Desecrate twice, once to get rid of Consecrate and once to make it work. Evil Clerics get a +6 bonus instead of taking a -6 penalty.

If we're assuming 24 hours notice and the right information, then Redcloak probably solos the room, maybe leaving every now and then for lesser Clerics to heal him. Multiple Area Inflicts probably get the job done.

Soon is anchored to the gate room and he can't destroy the gate himself.

Worse case, Xykon goes in, kills as many as he can, then leaves and is healed by lesser Clerics. Yeah, those massive spells he has only have a 50% chance of zapping a ghost, but they're area. Repeat as needed, wait until tomorrow for Xykon to get his spells back as needed.

If they have the city, then team evil wins.

[dancrilis]

I think a lot of people are focusing on Xykon being a bad guy and therefore doing bad things, sure I can accept that for the purpose of this discussion.

However the bad things he does are normally fairly minor for his amusement, or fairly major for a specific plan, or fairly major if he is significantly annoyed.

Not torching a city that he can make use of seems like something he might very well do.
Would life be pleasant for the people?
Probably not for the majority, however would it really be any worse for the citizens of Azure city then the current system?
I don't think it would be.

The other issue that people mention is if Xykon gets the gate, does the ritual and something bad happens.
But the plan does not necessitate universal destruction, in fact that is something is more likely to occur from people not giving Xykon the gate.

On the blackmail of the gods, we have no idea if the Dark One's plan is feasible, if it were then why has no other evil god tried it?
We also have no idea if he told Redcloak the truth by way of the Crimson Mantle.

However assuming that everything goes according to Redcloak's understanding of the plan it would simply provide a level playing.

So ignoring all possible results of the ritual (of which the stated plan is not that bad), and focusing on the citizenship under Xykon as alive rather then under Xykon as corpses, I don't really see how how surrendering would be likely worse then fighting - yes Xykon could have killed everyone for giggles (which I don't think likely), but he could have done that anyway.

[SowZ]

Azure City had no logical reason to surrender, though, since they had the power to stop the invasion. And they should have won, barring a freak thing no one could have predicted.

[Mutant Sheep]

I think a lot of people are focusing on Xykon being a bad guy and therefore doing bad things, sure I can accept that for the purpose of this discussion.

However the bad things he does are normally fairly minor for his amusement, or fairly major for a specific plan, or fairly major if he is significantly annoyed.

Not torching a city that he can make use of seems like something he might very well do.
Would life be pleasant for the people?
Probably not for the majority, however would it really be any worse for the citizens of Azure city then the current system?
I don't think it would be.

The other issue that people mention is if Xykon gets the gate, does the ritual and something bad happens.
But the plan does not necessitate universal destruction, in fact that is something is more likely to occur from people not giving Xykon the gate.

On the blackmail of the gods, we have no idea if the Dark One's plan is feasible, if it were then why has no other evil god tried it?
We also have no idea if he told Redcloak the truth by way of the Crimson Mantle.

However assuming that everything goes according to Redcloak's understanding of the plan it would simply provide a level playing.

So ignoring all possible results of the ritual (of which the stated plan is not that bad), and focusing on the citizenship under Xykon as alive rather then under Xykon as corpses, I don't really see how how surrendering would be likely worse then fighting - yes Xykon could have killed everyone for giggles (which I don't think likely), but he could have done that anyway.
Wait, you think rule by an evil lich with a massive army of goblinoids is just as good as a chaotic/neutral good cool old guy?:smallconfused: If you are assuming the evil lich WONT kill people hes ruling and that the Twelve gods would be a-OK with their paladins just letting a lich wander in and take over with no resistance...:smalleek:

And why would the evil gods try to blackmail themselves? I don't think any of them want to see the Snarl again, ever, since they saw it kill the poor Greek themed gods. They made this world in partnership with the other gods after seeing the horror of the snarl, why specifically risk it killing them?

[Jaros]

I think a lot of people are focusing on Xykon being a bad guy and therefore doing bad things, sure I can accept that for the purpose of this discussion.

However the bad things he does are normally fairly minor for his amusement, or fairly major for a specific plan, or fairly major if he is significantly annoyed.

Not torching a city that he can make use of seems like something he might very well do.
Would life be pleasant for the people?
Probably not for the majority, however would it really be any worse for the citizens of Azure city then the current system?
I don't think it would be.

He might not see the city as of use to him though, except to be used as an army.

And let's not forget how he dealt with issues back in Dorukan's Dungeon: kill and zombify whoever complains. I have a feeling a main reason that isn't happening so much now is because Redcloak is making sure they don't bother him.

SoD spoilers: When he came to Right-Eye's village, he decided the only people there were his minions and his zombies

[dancrilis]

Wait, you think rule by an evil lich with a massive army of goblinoids is just as good as a chaotic/neutral good cool old guy?
No, this is not to compare life under Xykon to life under Shojo, or Hinjo or anyone else.
This is comparing the following:
1. Xykon conquered the city as laid out exactly in the comic ... not a single action changes from the comic.
2. The city surrenders to Xykon before the battle.

Obviously there would be bad things that would happen, but all the dead human soldiers may be alive, all and Xykon's army, some of the culture may have survived, the noble class to rule some aspects etc.


If you are assuming the evil lich WONT kill people hes ruling and that the Twelve gods would be a-OK with their paladins just letting a lich wander in and take over with no resistance.
I imagine all the paladins would object to the plan, and would likely die or be handed over to Xykon/Redcloak, but that would not really affect the average citizen.



And why would the evil gods try to blackmail themselves? I don't think any of them want to see the Snarl again, ever, since they saw it kill the poor Greek themed gods. They made this world in partnership with the other gods after seeing the horror of the snarl, why specifically risk it killing them?
In order to become the top god, but yes they may never want to deal with it again having greater knowledge then the Dark One (being that his knowledge comes from them).

[Sunken Valley]

He was wrong to let the bad guys win and wrong to withdraw his troops.

But he was right about other things.

He was right about how Elan would never love Therkala.

He was right that he couldn't defeat Hinjo without Quarr.

He was right that nobody would accept him and his men withdrawing.

He was right that if he surrendered, no one would hurt him.

He was right that nothing could be traced back to him.

And he was right that his trial scheme would have worked.

Pretty good for a filler villain

[Kish]

He was right that if he surrendered, no one would hurt him.

...Really? Where is he then?


And he was right that his trial scheme would have worked.
Unknowable.

[Forum Explorer]

Azure City had no logical reason to surrender, though, since they had the power to stop the invasion. And they should have won, barring a freak thing no one could have predicted.

Sorry but I seem to remember the City falling before Redcloak got to the Throne Room. If the nothing unusual had happened Redcloak would be dead and Xykon stuck there until he gets lucky enough to escape the room after regenerating. Still a loss for team Evil but they would still control a gate until Tsusikiko could figure out the ritual.

[SowZ]

Sorry but I seem to remember the City falling before Redcloak got to the Throne Room. If the nothing unusual had happened Redcloak would be dead and Xykon stuck there until he gets lucky enough to escape the room after regenerating. Still a loss for team Evil but they would still control a gate until Tsusikiko could figure out the ritual.

With Xykon dead and Recloak dead, the gate would be protected. As evidenced recently, liches have a phylactery that has to be destroyed is not an unknown concept. Yeah, the civilians may still have had to flee. But the ultimate goal of Azure City would have been fufilled and with the throne room perpetually guarded by ghosts the hobgoblins couldn't kill and without Redcloaks leadership it is far more likely that the humans would have eventually taken back the city. Maybe not, but the plan would have been stopped. A win for the Sapphire Guard, if a costly one.

[Kish]

Sorry but I seem to remember the City falling before Redcloak got to the Throne Room. If the nothing unusual had happened Redcloak would be dead and Xykon stuck there until he gets lucky enough to escape the room after regenerating.
That would have to be a great deal of luck, considering that in the regeneration process he'd spend at least hours as a helpless skull right next to ghost-Soon, ready to be sent back to the beginning of the regeneration process by a single sword blow, even if no one came in who could have destroyed the phylactery at Soon's direction.

[Cynric]

I think that in the light of recent plot events it is easy to forget that the resistance (or what is now left of them) are not the whole of the Azurites, but only a small piece. The vast majority are now safely located in an isolated and defendable Elven city.

Admittedly it was only serendipity that brought them to this outcome, but their current situation has to be far preferable to the life of slavery and imprisonment that would have faced them after a total surrender (Assuming that the option of parley over mass slaughter is one Xykon would have even considered, regardless of the benefits. I mean if you had assembled an army of untold thousands and travelled all that way, would you not use them?).

Although admittedly the Azurites position is improved by the presence of all the soldiers that Kubota and the other nobles held back. Like I say; serendipity.

I'd also like to add that this is my first ever post! I've been a fan for about two years now, and it's nice to finally be commenting!

[Mutant Sheep]

I think that in the light of recent plot events it is easy to forget that the resistance (or what is now left of them) are not the whole of the Azurites, but only a small piece. The vast majority are now safely located in an isolated and defendable Elven city.

Admittedly it was only serendipity that brought them to this outcome, but their current situation has to be far preferable to the life of slavery and imprisonment that would have faced them after a total surrender (Assuming that the option of parley over mass slaughter is one Xykon would have even considered, regardless of the benefits. I mean if you had assembled an army of untold thousands and travelled all that way, would you not use them?).

Although admittedly the Azurites position is improved by the presence of all the soldiers that Kubota and the other nobles held back. Like I say; serendipity.

I'd also like to add that this is my first ever post! I've been a fan for about two years now, and it's nice to finally be commenting!
Don't worry, we'll have you blabbering illogically and making aggressive assumptions about V's gender before ya know it. :smallwink:

[Morthis]

I think a lot of people are focusing on Xykon being a bad guy and therefore doing bad things, sure I can accept that for the purpose of this discussion.

We don't say he does bad things because he's the big bad of the comic, we say he does bad things because we've consistently seen him do so. It's his character.


However the bad things he does are normally fairly minor for his amusement, or fairly major for a specific plan, or fairly major if he is significantly annoyed.

I guess they are fairly minor in the sense that he would probably only kill a couple of dozen people at a time for his amusement and there's billions of people, but if you, or someone you care about, is one of those few dozen I doubt you'd consider it "fairly minor".

Remember from SoD
He killed the human castle that RC was about to attack for no other reason than that it'd be pretty funny. He took great joy in emotionally abusing his victims right before killing them (letting the guy beg for his life and then killing him anyway). He killed his parents. He killed a bunch of goblins on his side, mostly accidentally, but was pretty amused by the whole ordeal anyway. All this took place before he became a Lich, and RC quite clearly said that since turning into a Lich, he's become a lot more interested in watching things die. As Lich, he watched many of his followers die, including all of Right-Eye's family, while watching and laughing.

If you haven't read SoD and don't want to read that spoiler tag, fine, just take our word for it, SoD quite clearly portray him as someone who very much enjoys watching people die and/or killing them. This is not some minor issue or some evil trait we attribute to him simply because he's evil. It's something he has always enjoyed doing, and we have no reason to believe he'll stop now. If you feel that your ruler randomly murdering its subjects is no big deal, well then I guess we have a very fundamentally different opinion of what is and is not acceptable in a ruler. I certainly would not want to live in a country where I, or someone I cared about, might get killed, for no other reason than the personal amusement of the leader.


Would life be pleasant for the people?
Probably not for the majority, however would it really be any worse for the citizens of Azure city then the current system?
I don't think it would be.

Uh, you contradicted yourself with the very first sentence, unless you believe life in Azure City has never been pleasant and people always hated it there.


The other issue that people mention is if Xykon gets the gate, does the ritual and something bad happens.
But the plan does not necessitate universal destruction, in fact that is something is more likely to occur from people not giving Xykon the gate.

We don't know that. We have no clue what the ritual does, and everything is purely speculation. We do know that the gates being left alone entirely is the safest option. That option is off the table because of Xykon and Redcloak.


On the blackmail of the gods, we have no idea if the Dark One's plan is feasible, if it were then why has no other evil god tried it?
We also have no idea if he told Redcloak the truth by way of the Crimson Mantle.

Um, assuming the ritual works at all, TDO using it for the sake of goblin equality is essentially the best case scenario as is. If he's lying about what the ritual will do, I can't think of any scenario that would be beneficial for him to pursue that I'd consider a better outcome than the equality one.


So ignoring all possible results of the ritual (of which the stated plan is not that bad), and focusing on the citizenship under Xykon as alive rather then under Xykon as corpses, I don't really see how how surrendering would be likely worse then fighting - yes Xykon could have killed everyone for giggles (which I don't think likely), but he could have done that anyway.

You're using a straw man argument now. We're not comparing serving under Xykon alive or dying, we're comparing fighting to surrendering. Fighting does not imply all of Azure City has to die (clearly, they fought and many are not dead).

[Math_Mage]

Re: the idea of sending Kubota as an envoy, it is possible he would have negotiated a betrayal of Azure City at some opportune moment. It's certainly LIKELY that Redcloak's hatred of Azure City and Xykon's playful sadism would have done for Kubota, but that wouldn't have persuaded the other nobles to stay and fight, only to leave.


No, this is not to compare life under Xykon to life under Shojo, or Hinjo or anyone else.
This is comparing the following:
1. Xykon conquered the city as laid out exactly in the comic ... not a single action changes from the comic.
2. The city surrenders to Xykon before the battle.

Obviously there would be bad things that would happen, but all the dead human soldiers may be alive, all and Xykon's army, some of the culture may have survived, the noble class to rule some aspects etc.

The Sapphire Guard would still be dead. Many of the remaining soldiers would be dead, the remainder enslaved or imprisoned with a rather short life expectancy, serving as they would be under a goblin who hates humans and would happily use them to satisfy Xykon's whims of casual slaughter. Notably, the citizenry would not have escaped to the abandoned elven vacation island.

Of course, Kubota's idea wasn't to surrender, simply to "give the lich what he wants." He was not aware that this would require surrendering the city, the Gate being immovable; he assumed that the presentation of some petty bauble would turn Xykon and his army around. Kubota was so entirely ignorant of the situation that he didn't even know what he was suggesting. That's not advice to follow.

[dancrilis]

We don't say he does bad things because he's the big bad of the comic, we say he does bad things because we've consistently seen him do so. It's his character.
Who mentioned him being the big bad? I mentioned him being a bad guy, which in theory he is, as you mentioned it is a character trait.



I guess they are fairly minor in the sense that he would probably only kill a couple of dozen people at a time for his amusement and there's billions of people, but if you, or someone you care about, is one of those few dozen I doubt you'd consider it "fairly minor".
From a relatively objective point it is minor to kill dozens for entertainment, particularly in comparison to killing hundreds for a goal, and achieving the same anyway.



Remember from SoD
Yes, and it is relevant however as I mentioned some time ago on a different topic, since Xykon was destroyed he has really stopped such needless waste, he has not wholescale killed hobgoblins, he hired Tsukiko rather then killing her and has never treated her badly, similarly with Jirix who he had raised (which Redcloak had to be told to do).
As far as I am concerned the character development of Xykon over the comic is pure brilliance on Rich's part.



Uh, you contradicted yourself with the very first sentence, unless you believe life in Azure City has never been pleasant and people always hated it there.
Ok I will try this again (I thought it was clear in the opening post, and I thought it was clear when I clarified ... but apparently not).


This is comparing the following:
1. Xykon conquered the city as laid out exactly in the comic ... not a single action changes from the comic.
2. The city surrenders to Xykon before the battle.
If anyone has any issue with the above quote, in terms of understanding my intention please let me know (grammar, spelling, a potential language barrier) anything at all that in some way makes it unclear that I am referring to life under Xykon in Azure City (or as currently named Gobbotopia) now in the comic compared to life in Azure City (or Gobbotopia) if the the city had surrendered.
I am not comparing life if the city surrendered to anything else (Shojo's reign, if Xykon lost, or any other hypothetical).



You're using a straw man argument now. We're not comparing serving under Xykon alive or dying, we're comparing fighting to surrendering. Fighting does not imply all of Azure City has to die (clearly, they fought and many are not dead).
No I am not using a straw man argument, in order for me to have a straw man argument I would need to misrepresent the opposing position and attempt to counter it thereby claiming some sort of shallow victory, even if I wanted too I am actually unsure of what the opposing position is and so could not even begin to misrepresent it.

I could argue that you are using a straw man argument by claiming that I was using one, this could be seen as you using one by misrepresenting my position to thereby claim that it is invalid without actually focusing on the content of what I intended, but I will assume this was a result of miscommunication on my part rather then a deliberate intention on yours.

What I am saying with this 'and focusing on the citizenship under Xykon as alive rather then under Xykon as corpses' is that if the city had surrendered then in theory many of the people that died may still be alive rather then dead.
Note the may in that sentence, but even if they were all dead they would be no worse off under an attempted surrender.

The only survivors of the fight seem to be those on Hinjo's boat (as the other boats left first), as such everyone else can be assumed to be in the resistance, a slave, or dead, and out of 9,000 fighters that is a lot of dead, perhaps needlessly for no gain, those that are slaves may also not be in that position had they surrendered as the nobles may have retained some power to allow serfdom.


Re: the idea of sending Kubota as an envoy, it is possible he would have negotiated a betrayal of Azure City at some opportune moment. It's certainly LIKELY that Redcloak's hatred of Azure City and Xykon's playful sadism would have done for Kubota, but that wouldn't have persuaded the other nobles to stay and fight, only to leave.
I would disagree with this (to an extend), Tsukiko is proof that both Xykon and Redcloak are willing to deal.



The Sapphire Guard would still be dead.
Agreed, but with few exceptions they are anyway.


Many of the remaining soldiers would be dead, the remainder enslaved or imprisoned with a rather short life expectancy, serving as they would be under a goblin who hates humans and would happily use them to satisfy Xykon's whims of casual slaughter. Notably, the citizenry would not have escaped to the abandoned elven vacation island.
Well that would depend on the deal worked out with Xykon and if he honoured it, an appeal to him conquering the world may have swayed him to let the nobles keep power under him.
Redcloak would likely have demanded blood, but the entire Sapphire Guard may have done, and at the stage he hated the hobgoblins as well and without the battle he may never have placed them on a higher level then humans.



Of course, Kubota's idea wasn't to surrender, simply to "give the lich what he wants." He was not aware that this would require surrendering the city, the Gate being immovable; he assumed that the presentation of some petty bauble would turn Xykon and his army around. Kubota was so entirely ignorant of the situation that he didn't even know what he was suggesting. That's not advice to follow.
Of course, I mentioned as much in the opening post.
But knowing what we know I am not sure that having the battle helped anyone in Azure city more then surrendering would have.

[Zevox]

Azure City had no logical reason to surrender, though, since they had the power to stop the invasion. And they should have won, barring a freak thing no one could have predicted.
No, that latter is definitely too strong of a statement. Azure City could possibly have won the battle and stopped the invasion, true, but they were by no means in a position to assume that they could. The only "freak thing no one could have predicted" that happened resolved the struggle over the gate, not the battle for the city. The city was a lost cause before that. The big turning points were Redcloak's elementals knocking holes in the walls, the general effectiveness of the Xykon impostors, and the point at which the Goblin army was able to enter the city through those breaches in the walls. Even if Xykon and Redcloak had fallen in the Throne Room, the Goblin army would still have overrun the city, unless Redcloak's second-in-command panicked and ordered a retreat upon hearing of their fall (and I don't know about you, but given the devotion the other Goblins have displayed towards Redcloak, I would expect the reaction to be more a desire to win the day and recover Redcloak's body, not a panicked retreat).

The possibility of victory did exist though, as I said, and would be one reason not to surrender. The bigger, more important one being the risks associated with letting the Gate fall into Xykon and Redcloak's hands. That latter alone makes the idea out of the question.

Zevox

[Math_Mage]

I would disagree with this (to an extend), Tsukiko is proof that both Xykon and Redcloak are willing to deal.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. You think Kubota would not have been killed straight off? I allowed for that possibility. You think Kubota could have successfully negotiated a peaceful settlement where the residents of Azure City remain largely as they are? I think that's pure wishful thinking.


Agreed, but with few exceptions they are anyway.

Hence the modifier "still."


Well that would depend on the deal worked out with Xykon and if he honoured it, an appeal to him conquering the world may have swayed him to let the nobles keep power under him.
Redcloak would likely have demanded blood, but the entire Sapphire Guard may have done, and at the stage he hated the hobgoblins as well and without the battle he may never have placed them on a higher level then humans.

Redcloak would, at the VERY least, want Azure City to become Gobbotopia, with all that implies for goblin supremacy in Azure City. The Azurites would not enjoy that.

As for "hating hobgoblins," he didn't. He merely didn't care about them. He hated humans. I don't need to work out the totem pole for you, right?


Of course, I mentioned as much in the opening post.
But knowing what we know I am not sure that having the battle helped anyone in Azure city more then surrendering would have.

It helped all the people who subsequently escaped to the elven vacation island and are presumably enjoying a better life than they would have under the tyranny of Xykon/Redcloak. You seem to have forgotten about them when you talk about all the dead people who would be alive if only they'd surrendered.

As far as I can tell, the fundamental premise of your argument is that life for Azurites under Xykon/Redcloak wouldn't be that bad. The only possible textual evidence I can think of for that position is that Redcloak didn't outright kill all the human prisoners (and even there we have calculated self-interest: a bait to lure the Resistance to its own destruction). Every other indicator says that they would have made many Azurites dead and the rest miserable. While we equally have many dead Azurites as events played out in the comic, the live ones are making a new life for themselves far from tyranny. I call that a better situation.

And that's before we get into all the perils associated with Xykon/Redcloak executing the Plan.

[hamishspence]

As for "hating hobgoblins," he didn't. He merely didn't care about them. He hated humans.

He did have a grudge against hobgoblins:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html

though eventually he realizes how racist he was being toward them- and changes:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html

[Morthis]

Who mentioned him being the big bad? I mentioned him being a bad guy, which in theory he is, as you mentioned it is a character trait.

Well, he's the main villain of the comic that's why I called him the big bad, not that it matters much for the discussion, my point was just that we consider him a murderous bastard because he is one, not because he's the main antagonist.


From a relatively objective point it is minor to kill dozens for entertainment, particularly in comparison to killing hundreds for a goal, and achieving the same anyway.

There's two issues here. For one, the reason for their deaths matter. I think most people would much rather die fighting for something they believe in than die because your death will temporarily amuse someone else. Also, since Xykon lives forever, these deaths do not stop.


Yes, and it is relevant however as I mentioned some time ago on a different topic, since Xykon was destroyed he has really stopped such needless waste, he has not wholescale killed hobgoblins, he hired Tsukiko rather then killing her and has never treated her badly, similarly with Jirix who he had raised (which Redcloak had to be told to do).
As far as I am concerned the character development of Xykon over the comic is pure brilliance on Rich's part.

Shortly after he started regenerating his body, and Redcloak's approach to fixing things was to simply suicide hobgoblins at it, Xykon was actually proud of what Redcloak did. When Redcloak wanted Xykon's attention for the battle strategy, he promised torture of hobgoblins as a reward to keep his attention. I see no change, other than that SoD focused more on his character so obviously we saw him do more bad things. Showing his disrespect for anything living, unless it ties into the story, is moot at this point simply because we already know he shows no respect for it. I don't know why his body being destroyed would make any difference.


Ok I will try this again (I thought it was clear in the opening post, and I thought it was clear when I clarified ... but apparently not).

I misunderstood, I thought you meant compared to the previous system (as in when Shojo was a ruler). Would it be worse for the current slaves of Azure City? Probably not, but that's only a fraction of the population, many got away on the boats, and all current slaves can maintain hope that help is eventually coming. They were clearly inspired by the way O'Chull seemingly resisted Redcloak's interrogation. Having hope to cling to can be a pretty big deal, if they surrendered and willingly accepted his rule, there would be no hope to cling to.


What I am saying with this 'and focusing on the citizenship under Xykon as alive rather then under Xykon as corpses' is that if the city had surrendered then in theory many of the people that died may still be alive rather then dead.
Note the may in that sentence, but even if they were all dead they would be no worse off under an attempted surrender.

Strawman was not the correct term since it's both coming from your argument, but I feel you are misrepresenting the two options. The choice is not between fighting and dead, or surrendering and alive, because many of them did not die. You can't just consider the people on Hinjo's boat because we're comparing things exactly as it played out in the comic vs a hypothetical surrender. The people on all the boats survived in the comic, if they had surrendered, they would be under Xykon's rule (Kubota did not make the decision to bail until after Hinjo turned down his suggestion of surrender).

[Dark Matter]

...Even if Xykon and Redcloak had fallen in the Throne Room, the Goblin army would still have overrun the city...The rest of your post I agreed with, but Xykon and RC dying in the Throne room would have meant that although the city was overrun, the situation as a whole was still salvageable. Azure city might be rebuild-able, Gobblotopia may never come about.

No Xykon means No Cloister & the undead loving chick probably leaves. MitD might do so as well without Xykon or RC. No Cloister means the other countries are able to figure out what is going on.

Redcloak's death means the plan falls apart. The Red Cloak is in the Thrown Room under Soon's watchful eye. Low level goblins aren't going to be able to deal with him and they probably don't know that they're supposed to.

No Redcloak means no supreme leader for the combined races, maybe no Cleric high enough level to cast Raise Dead, and the entire organizational structure which eventually formed Gobblotopia might be impossible.

Without the core of Team Evil, the high level characters are all on the other side. Roy gets his raise dead much earlier. Team P makes their move much earlier. The entire situation attracts adventurers until they win.

[Cirin]

There is also no indicating that Xykon and Redcloak would have been dead, even if you accept that Soon would have destroyed them (which ignores Xykon fleeing as he did at the gates explosion), the Goblins still held the city at that stage.
They could have whittled Soon down, retrieved the phylactery and raised Redcloak. Or not, but it is as likely as any other scenario.


Other than the fact that Xykon and Redcloak pretty much admitted they were defeated, and Soon stopped his coup-de-grace to try to stop Miko from smashing the Gate as unneccesary, giving them a chance to escape and preventing their final defeat.

Soon even told Miko that as she laid dying, as a contributing part of why she couldn't regain her Paladinhood

So, if Miko didn't smash the gate, and wasn't even in the room, Soon was still there. An Epic Level Paladin, incorporeal (with who-knows-what other immunities from the Template he had) with apparently a Ghost Touch weapon could have waded through a small army of hobgoblins on his own and held the Throne Room & the Gate secure for a very long time. Without Redcloak or Xykon's high-level magic, the tide of battle could well have been turned.

The only reason Hinjo and the OotS didn't go to the Tower themselves was it destroyed when the Gate went up. The only reason that the OotS and Hinjo even fled the city was that they assumed that with the Gate destroyed, all was lost and the battle was essentially over. Hinjo, Roy, Haley, Durkon, et al. any one of them (or even a random Azurite soldier) could have made it to the throne room and received instructions from Soon on how to destroy the phylactery.

While O'Chul couldn't smash it immediately upon release, it is apparently fragile enough that Redcloak considered Soon's threat to tell someone to destroy it as a very real threat. It's reenforced, not invincible.

[martianmister]

It's not right to agreed with or blame Kubota according to OP's opinion, because "surrendering" wasn't his plan in the first place. He just wanted to give Xykon what he wants. He thought Xykon would leave them alone if they give him what he wants, because Roy said that "lich didn't really care about the city". It was not a good idea because he doesn't know about the gates and their importance.

[SowZ]

No, that latter is definitely too strong of a statement. Azure City could possibly have won the battle and stopped the invasion, true, but they were by no means in a position to assume that they could. The only "freak thing no one could have predicted" that happened resolved the struggle over the gate, not the battle for the city. The city was a lost cause before that. The big turning points were Redcloak's elementals knocking holes in the walls, the general effectiveness of the Xykon impostors, and the point at which the Goblin army was able to enter the city through those breaches in the walls. Even if Xykon and Redcloak had fallen in the Throne Room, the Goblin army would still have overrun the city, unless Redcloak's second-in-command panicked and ordered a retreat upon hearing of their fall (and I don't know about you, but given the devotion the other Goblins have displayed towards Redcloak, I would expect the reaction to be more a desire to win the day and recover Redcloak's body, not a panicked retreat).

The possibility of victory did exist though, as I said, and would be one reason not to surrender. The bigger, more important one being the risks associated with letting the Gate fall into Xykon and Redcloak's hands. That latter alone makes the idea out of the question.

Zevox

Yeah, my mind was thinking about the gate in particular, (which was the most important part of the battle and what I prioritized,) and made the jump in my mind from, "They had the gate on lock down," to "No reason to surrender."

[Sunken Valley]

...Really? Where is he then?

V had to shoot the dog and take unlawful action to do that. Kubota was right that nobody but V would hurt him.

Plus, his trial scheme would have worked if he really had that prestige class.

[Trixie]

Surrendering to the mass murdering Lich (who kills whenever bored, or when he feels like it, or any other time) and the Evil Goblin Priest (who hates humans with pure hatred) who have a plan to threaten to rip reality asunder with a world destroying thingy unless the Gods back down........................does not seem wise.

Well, technically, there was slim possibility that gods backing down and actually negotiating settlement giving goblins equal rights (like Dark One and Redcloak wanted in the beginning) would have been good ending to everyone.

Well, except for Xykon. He would have been pissed and might have tried something dumb. But then, Azure City and OotS would have had goblins as allies, not enemies, making taking him down much easier.


Even without the plan bit the whole "surrender to the Goblin army with an Epic level sorcerer who probably could solo our regular army and gets bored reeeaal easy" is not the smartest strategy.

Are you saying that when meeting force far exceeding your own surrender is bad strategy? As opposed to what? Being completely annihilated instead?

[dancrilis]

Alright some people are saying that life in the city under Xykon is not-preferable to life on the island, now I think there was a decent percentage chance that Xykon may have simply let the nobles alone to run things the same way he did Redcloak, but perhaps not.
As such I will accept this for the purpose of the discussion.

So how about this, abandon the city in full ahead of Xykon and let him have the city, everyone on boats, those that could not fit move north to escape the incoming army.

Still viable by giving Xykon what he wants, not a single human dead or enslaved (save perhaps Nale, Miko, the grand larcenist, the kidnapper, and Tsukiko).

Or evacuate the city (as was done) and the people that can't leave surrender to Xykon giving him what he wants with no hassle.

[Dark Matter]

...Hinjo, Roy, Haley, Durkon, et al. any one of them (or even a random Azurite soldier) could have made it to the throne room and received instructions from Soon on how to destroy the phylactery.

While O'Chul couldn't smash it immediately upon release, it is apparently fragile enough that Redcloak considered Soon's threat to tell someone to destroy it as a very real threat. It's reenforced, not invincible."Miko, take the Cleric's phylactery to the Anti-Magic-Shell in the prison. Then hit it with something until it's destroyed."

[Math_Mage]

Alright some people are saying that life in the city under Xykon is not-preferable to life on the island, now I think there was a decent percentage chance that Xykon may have simply let the nobles alone to run things the same way he did Redcloak, but perhaps not.
As such I will accept this for the purpose of the discussion.

So how about this, abandon the city in full ahead of Xykon and let him have the city, everyone on boats, those that could not fit move north to escape the incoming army.

Still viable by giving Xykon what he wants, not a single human dead or enslaved (save perhaps Nale, Miko, the grand larcenist, the kidnapper, and Tsukiko).

Or evacuate the city (as was done) and the people that can't leave surrender to Xykon giving him what he wants with no hassle.

I think a fundamental premise of the narrative is that LETTING XYKON AND REDCLOAK HAVE A GATE IS A BAD IDEA. I should not need to establish this with evidence from the comic, so don't make me.

[Steward]

Okay, I'll bite.

Why? It's not like they've ever hurt anyone with a gate before, right? I think Redcloak and Xykon deserve a chance. Anyone who says otherwise is prejudiced against necromancy, the undead, goblins, and Lovecraftian entities from a different dimension. :smallwink:

[Math_Mage]

Okay, I'll bite.

Why? It's not like they've ever hurt anyone with a gate before, right? I think Redcloak and Xykon deserve a chance. Anyone who says otherwise is prejudiced against necromancy, the undead, goblins, and Lovecraftian entities from a different dimension. :smallwink:

I'd guess most of OotSworld is justifiably biased against most of the above. So, yes.

On a more plot-driven level,
the world is 'safe' from Xykon only so long as he believes that the Gates are a shortcut to world domination. If at any time he finds out it is otherwise, he will destroy Redcloak and set out to do it the long and painful way. (Alternatively, he'll destroy TDO and take control of the Gate, if he has the power, and it really WILL be a shortcut to world domination.) As for Redcloak and the Plan, if he does manage to pull it off, it is at best a prelude to violent goblin takeover, and at worst the undoing of the world.