Fire shuriken - assassin or wu-jen?

[Icestorm245]

So there is two options for classes to get the fire shuriken spell. One of them is assassin, and the other is wu jen. The problem I'm having is deciding do I want the higher BAB to actually hit with these shuriken, thus sacrificing caster levels and thus, losing shuriken whenever I cast the spell, or go wu jen for the full caster level, easy way of increasing caster level even further for more shuriken per casting but sacrifice a crap ton of BAB and attacks, making my shuriken hard to hit with. What should I do?

Also, thanks to everyone who helped me with my last thread about making shuriken throwers. I ended up with two builds, one that used Ninja and Master Thrower for lots attacks and sudden strike damage, and a more complicated Ranger/Rogue build that concentrated on strength and power attack with the distracting shot ACF and the Death's Ruin ACF.

[sonofzeal]

- what level?

- what books?

- how flexible is your DM?

[Icestorm245]

- what level?

- what books?

- how flexible is your DM?

Level 20, preferably something that is effective from level 6 (Our group tends to start around here), all books as long as they are published by wizards of the coast are allowed and he's pretty open minded but he does tend to be skeptical and sometimes even derogotory to ideas he thinks is dumb - until proven otherwise.

[Urpriest]

Well, Wu Jen will let you make a Gish build. Something like

Crusader 1/Wu Jen 5/Jade Phenonix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5

Is nice and thematic, while keeping high caster level and BAB.

[Talionis]

Fire Shuriken can be on the Chameleon spell list at level 6. I really like 2 levels of Chameleon with any amount of Intiators from the Tome of Battle because you can get both the Floating Chameleon feat and Heroics spell to add maneuvers in the middle of the day. Since Chameleon casts like a wizard it can cast Fire Shuriken in your down time to get you a stash of them.

[Icestorm245]

Both of these sound pretty promising, I'll have to look into them. Thanks for the suggestions, guys! My initial idea was to do Wu jen 10/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theruge 8 using Divine Metamagic to power Persist Divine Power, but that leaves me without my character's intended flavour until level 12 at best.

[Manateee]

Both. Ultimate Magus FTW! :p

[Icestorm245]

Both. Ultimate Magus FTW! :p

The problem with that is still my BAB issue. =P I want to have at least average BAB so I don't suck with this character concept.

[dextercorvia]

Why not just a Mystic Ranger of the Arcane Order with several eternal wands of Fire Shuriken?

[sonofzeal]

Why not just a Mystic Ranger of the Arcane Order with several eternal wands of Fire Shuriken?
Er, what? That's got about as much relevance, and balance, as telling him to play a Planar Sheppard with the same. MRotAO is complete cheese, and it doesn't even let him use the wands since they aren't Wizard spells and he still won't have UMD as a class skill. So... way to break the game in a way that has nothing to do with Icestorm's issue, I guess? :smallconfused:

[dextercorvia]

Er, what? That's got about as much relevance, and balance, as telling him to play a Planar Sheppard with the same. MRotAO is complete cheese, and it doesn't even let him use the wands since they aren't Wizard spells and he still won't have UMD as a class skill. So... way to break the game in a way that has nothing to do with Icestorm's issue, I guess? :smallconfused:

It doesn't have to be Mystic Ranger, and that is still just T3, since it caps out at 5th level spells. However, SoTAO does allow him to cast arcane spells, which means he can activate any Eternal Wand. Even those of spells not on his list.

[Icestorm245]

It doesn't have to be Mystic Ranger, and that is still just T3, since it caps out at 5th level spells. However, SoTAO does allow him to cast arcane spells, which means he can activate any Eternal Wand. Even those of spells not on his list.

I COULD do this, but I want some semblance of character concept and theme. Also, my DM may not allow things like Eternal Wands, since it is rather game breaking. He told our cleric he could only use one nightstick, so I doubt he'll let me use this.

[sonofzeal]

It doesn't have to be Mystic Ranger, and that is still just T3, since it caps out at 5th level spells. However, SoTAO does allow him to cast arcane spells, which means he can activate any Eternal Wand. Even those of spells not on his list.
By my reading and despite its name, SotAO doesn't actually specify whether your spells count as arcane or divine; you're putting Wizard spells into the slots, but your slots and actual casting mechanic remain divine. PHB specifies that Rangers cast divine spells, and SotAO does nothing to override this.

As corroborating evidence: arcane spells get ASF in armor barring specific exemption, and SotAO provides no such exemption, but both Ranger and especially Paladin are armor-wearing classes. Even Mystic Ranger gets light armor proficiency. RAI seems clear that SotAO Paladins don't have to ditch their armor to use their new spells, and quid pro quo the spells RAI count as divine. RAW too, since again nothing is stated to contradict the divine casting mechanic of both classes.

[FMArthur]

Chameleon is actually better at casting Assassin spells than an assassin.

[sonofzeal]

I COULD do this, but I want some semblance of character concept and theme. Also, my DM may not allow things like Eternal Wands, since it is rather game breaking. He told our cleric he could only use one nightstick, so I doubt he'll let me use this.
In what way are Eternal Wands game-breaking? You'd have to be using both charges every day for a month before it payed off compared to a regular Wand, and even then non-eternal Wands have more flexibility and allow that occasional 3rd (or more) charge per day. Rare is the campaign where Eternal Wands are more valuable than regular ones.

[dextercorvia]

Eternal Wands are far from game breaking. You would only be able to activate them a couple of times/day, which means that your stock would not be any greater than if you were casting it yourself.

Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat that represents a Ranger or Paladin's devotion to one of the dieties of magic (Azuth or Mystra in FR). So you could be a reclusive disciple of some old hermit, who has taught you the ways of the forest, and some smidgen of magic. Your Eternal Wands are the property of your sacred order, which have been entrusted to you as you go out into the world to prove that you know Kung Fu.

[dextercorvia]

If you want to cast them from your own set of spells known, then I will 15th what everyone else has said about Chameleon.

[Coidzor]

I COULD do this, but I want some semblance of character concept and theme. Also, my DM may not allow things like Eternal Wands, since it is rather game breaking. He told our cleric he could only use one nightstick, so I doubt he'll let me use this.

:smallconfused: ...Eternal Wands aren't game breaking.

And, really, if Fire Shuriken is that big of a deal for you, well, eternal wands free up your options, no? :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

or go wu jen for the full caster level, easy way of increasing caster level even further for more shuriken per casting but sacrifice a crap ton of BAB and attacks, making my shuriken hard to hit with. What should I do?

Fire Shuriken can be created and stockpiled in any downtime you have; the Instantaneous duration of it means they last forever once made (until you chuck them at something, anyway) So the amount you get per cast isn't terribly relevant unless you never get any downtime, since on any day where you don't expect to be in active combat you can fill all your level 2+ slots with Fire Shuriken and make a few dozen more. So I'd focus on hitting/damage boosters with them.

That said, if you are pressed for down-time, a Wu Jen-based build will have a lot more level 2 and greater slots to make shuriken with, letting you make the most of whatever opportunities you get to refill your stock.

(Also, I just realized this.. although I've noted the permanent nature of Fire Shuriken before and fiddled with making a build based on it, it also means somebody could conceivably make a business creating and selling Fire Shuriken as a cost-effective alternative to magic shuriken/buying a zillion daggers.)

[Telok]

Fire Shuriken is an instantaneous evocation spell, like Fireball, that creates an immediate effect. It is not an instantaneous conjuration, like Orb of Force, which creates a permanent object.

Stockpiling is only applicable to spell effects that create permanent objects.

[tyckspoon]

Nuup. Check the spell again. The effect of it is to create the fire shuriken. That's all. It just makes the shuriken in your hand; it doesn't launch them, it doesn't require that you actually throw them when you cast it or even after (and note that it doesn't make provision for throwing them as part of casting the spell either, so your reading would make it effectively useless- you use one standard action to cast the spell, and then the shuriken instantly appear and fade away before you get another one to throw them, let alone a full-round to throw all of them that you make?) The Effect of the spell is to create 1 shuriken/3 CL, and it's Instantaneous. It is somewhat unusual that it's an Evocation, but that doesn't change how the rules work.

[sonofzeal]

Fire Shuriken is an instantaneous evocation spell, like Fireball, that creates an immediate effect. It is not an instantaneous conjuration, like Orb of Force, which creates a permanent object.

Stockpiling is only applicable to spell effects that create permanent objects.
The Fire Shuriken spell very specifically creates them in your hand, and then states you can throw them "as a normal ranged attack".

Corroborating evidence: the range for the spell is 0 feet, while the range for Melf's Acid Arrow is "Long". If Fire Shuriken were intended to function like Fireball or Acid Arrow, it would presumably have a range entry that renders it something more than "completely useless". I mean, I guess you could grapple someone and cast it that way, but that seems bizarre on way too many levels.

[Icestorm245]

Ah, I was mistaken about the Eternal Wands. My apologies, it must have been something else. However, using them to create the shuriken for me isn't all that... flavorful. I would rather cast from scrolls for a character like this rather than a wand because when's the last time you've seen someone use wands to call other weapons? Scrolls, however, are just not great to use in this situation.

[Telok]

Nuup. Check the spell again. The effect of it is to create the fire shuriken. That's all. It just makes the shuriken in your hand; it doesn't launch them, it doesn't require that you actually throw them when you cast it or even after (and note that it doesn't make provision for throwing them as part of casting the spell either....

Actually the only instantaneous effect spells that generally create permanent items are the Conjuration (Creation) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation) spells. There is no precedent or rule for an instantaneous evocation spell to create permanent items.

The issue with throwing them is a problem no matter which way you rule it. By your method a 9th level wu-jen would have to spend three rounds to throw all his shuriken. I would presume that all of the shuriken were launched by the spell in the same round that they were created. The spell simply doesn't say which.

[sonofzeal]

The issue with throwing them is a problem no matter which way you rule it. By your method a 9th level wu-jen would have to spend three rounds to throw all his shuriken. I would presume that all of the shuriken were launched by the spell in the same round that they were created. The spell simply doesn't say which.
If it was launched by the spell, you'd need a Target and non-zero Range. Also, one would hope the spell would mention something of the sort. As none of those three apply, I think we can rule out the spell launching them.


Also:


Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
There's some precedence for non-Conj spells working that way.

[Coidzor]

Ah, I was mistaken about the Eternal Wands. My apologies, it must have been something else. However, using them to create the shuriken for me isn't all that... flavorful. I would rather cast from scrolls for a character like this rather than a wand because when's the last time you've seen someone use wands to call other weapons? Scrolls, however, are just not great to use in this situation.

Wand of flameblade = lightsaber. Bam.

[Icestorm245]

Wand of flameblade = lightsaber. Bam.

There is so many things wrong with this on so many levels, lol. A lightsaber is not a magical creation so much as it is technological. That and a lightsaber isn't fire. And lightsaber handles are kinda wandshaped... but they have unlimited charges then.

Nice Try =P

[Telok]

If it was launched by the spell, you'd need a Target and non-zero Range. Also, one would hope the spell would mention something of the sort. As none of those three apply, I think we can rule out the spell launching them.

Also: There's some precedence for non-Conj spells working that way.

The spell does indicate targets and range increment in the spell description. It is also SR: Yes. The spell resistance roll is not found on spells that create permanent objects.

One unfortunate effect of your decision is that Burning Hands, another instantaneous evocation, now creates a permanent spray of fire that you can pick up and walk around with. EWP: Burning Hands would be fun, but it's not supposed to work that way. Another bonus is that you create equipment that can be sold. Shuriken that everyone is proficient with and does 3d6 base damage, that can be stored or traded by anyone. Someone is going to sell these for 2 sp. each and make a lot of money.

I really do think that you are taking an unintended loophole caused by an absolute literalist reading of portions the spell, and carving a special exception in the evocation/conjuration rules for this one spell.

[absolmorph]

Actually the only instantaneous effect spells that generally create permanent items are the Conjuration (Creation) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation) spells. There is no precedent or rule for an instantaneous evocation spell to create permanent items.

The issue with throwing them is a problem no matter which way you rule it. By your method a 9th level wu-jen would have to spend three rounds to throw all his shuriken. I would presume that all of the shuriken were launched by the spell in the same round that they were created. The spell simply doesn't say which.
Evidence that a specific subschool does something is not evidence that no other subschool can do it.
Please provide the text that states that only Conjuration (Creation) spells create permanent effects (the fire shuriken are an effect, not an item).

A spell that does not say it throws something does not throw something.