(PF) Dervish Dancer questions

[Silus]

Ok, so ChimaeraCon is coming up in April and it promises to have gaming there, so I'm looking to get ready for some pick me up Pathfinder games (That and I've been watching too much Princess Tutu and I'm a bit bored). That being said, I've some questions regarding the class I've decided to play (Bard with the Dervish Dancer archetype from Ultimate Combat). I'd like to stress that I'm not looking for optimization beyond having the character perform its perceived job as best as it can (Said job being a highly mobile whirlwind of bladed, dancing death).

1. When taking the archetype, the bard gains proficiency in both Scimitars and Kukri. They both have the same crit range, but the Kukri deals 1d4 and is light and the Scimitar deals 1d6. Is there some benefit with going with Kukri over the higher damage Scimitar? Only thing I can fathom is a Two-Weapon Fighting Dervish and I'm not sure how viable that is.

1a. Assuming TWF for a Dervish is a viable spec, would I be better off going TWF or sticking with just one weapon, or is it just a matter of preference?

2. Aside from the class changes made between the Dervish PrC from 3.5 and the Pathfinder Archetype, is the method for stating up a Dervish the same in PF as it was in 3.5? (Feats, skill selection, ability points, ect.)

The other class I have in mind is the Armored Gun Archetype for the Gunslinger (or whatever the spec is called) cross-classed with Fighter under one of the Heavy Armored archetypes to try and make an unstoppable armored street sweeper. Not sure how viable it is, but I like the image.

[grarrrg]

...They both have the same crit range, but the Kukri deals 1d4 and is light and the Scimitar deals 1d6. Is there some benefit with going with Kukri over the higher damage Scimitar? Only thing I can fathom is a Two-Weapon Fighting Dervish and I'm not sure how viable that is.

1a. Assuming TWF for a Dervish is a viable spec, would I be better off going TWF or sticking with just one weapon, or is it just a matter of preference?


You have 3 options when it comes to Scimitar/Kukri
Option A: Fight with 1 Scimitar and take the Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) feat.
Option B: Fight with 1 Scimitar and an off-hand Kukri, Two-weapon fighting, better 'base' damage than....
Option C: Fight with 2 Kukris, Two-weapon Fighting, again, but you 'save' on feats.

Option C is almost strictly better than option B, as feats like Weapon Focus are weapon specific. The 1 less average damage is more than made up for through Feat conservation.

Option A is better with Low-point buy (or bad rolls), because you only need Dex and can skimp on Str.
Option C needs Str to enhance damage, and Dex to qualify for Two-weapon Fighting. To-hit can be either Str or Dex, depending on if you can afford Weapon Finesse.

1 Scimitar also has the advantage of being cheaper to enchant than 2 Kukris. But 2 Kukris gives you double the chance of rolling a Critical.

Assuming similar base Stats:
Scimitar is Bab+Dex to-hit, 1d6+Dex damage
Kukri x2 is Bab+(stat)-2 to-hit, 1d4+Str damage

tl;dr
Scimitar is more efficient.
Kukris are potentially deadlier.

[Silus]

I've always been a little hazy on how TWF works with regards to full attacks. Would I get more attacks by going with Option C or just have to divvy up what attack comes from which hand?

Also, the link you provided mentioned the Duelist PrC. Would it be worthwhile in dipping into it or should I just stick with Dervish?

[Bhaakon]

You gain 1 attack with your off-hand per level of TWF feat in addition to your normal attacks with your main-hand weapon.

So if you base attack bonus gets you 3 attacks, then TWF gets you 4, Improved TWF gets you 5, and Greater TWF gets you 6.

[grarrrg]

I've always been a little hazy on how TWF works with regards to full attacks. Would I get more attacks by going with Option C or just have to divvy up what attack comes from which hand?

Also, the link you provided mentioned the Duelist PrC. Would it be worthwhile in dipping into it or should I just stick with Dervish?

Second question first.
The Duelist is a "meh" PrC. While not horrible, most of its bonuses can be gotten/replicated by taking Fighter or Rogue instead.


Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-weapon-fighting-combat) for beginners (note the "for beginners, I am not trying to insult your intelligence, just covering ALL the bases to eliminate potential confusion, this WILL get wordy)

Let's take a hypothetical Fighter named Doug. Doug just reached level 7 and is trying to decide on his Feat (from leveling)
Doug has 16 Dex, and 7 Bab. On a Full-Attack Doug can make 2 attacks, +7/+2
Doug wants to be a "badass", and use 2 weapons. For the sake of argument, a Scimitar and a Kukri. A Kukri is a 'light' weapon.
There are no penalties to 'carrying' 2 weapons, but there are penalties to 'using' two weapons in the same round.
Doug doesn't like penalties. His options are:
Just fight with 1 weapon.
Fight with both but 'alternate' attacks.
Fight with both.

The first option is just silly! (otherwise I wouldn't be typing this up)
The second option means that Doug can, during a Full Attack, decide which of his 2 weapons is used for each attack. He could make his +7 attack with his Scimitar, and his +2 with his Kukri. Or the +7 could be the Kukri and Scimitar the +2, or...etc...
He takes no penalties while doing this.

The 3rd option lets you make an extra attack with your Off-Hand weapon, but ALL of your attacks receive to-hit penalties.
The penalties start at -6 Main hand and -10 Off-hand. These are pretty harsh for just 1 extra attack. Thankfully, there are 2 easy ways to reduce these penalties.
The first is to use a 'light' weapon in the Off-Hand, our Kukri is a 'light' weapon, so we shall call our Kukri our Off-hand weapon. This will reduce both penalties by 2. We now have -4 Main hand and -8 Off-hand.
These are still pretty harsh.
But Doug still has his level 7 Feat to chose!
He can take the feat "Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-weapon-fighting-combat)", this feat reduces the penalties by 2 and 6 points (main/off-hand). Now our penalties are only -2/-2! Doug can live with that if it means being a 'badass'.
Doug's attack routine can now look like this: (S=Scimitar, K=Kukri)
+5 S/+5 K/+0 S
He gets 3 attacks with manageable penalties.

Comparison
One Weapon
+7/+2
Two Weapon 'Alternate' (can be in any order)
+7 A/+2 B
Two-Weapon Fighting
+5 S/+5 K/+0 S

When Doug hits level 8 with his Fighter, he will have the option of putting his Ability Score Increase into Dex and taking the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-two-weapon-fighting-combat---final) Feat. This feat gives him ANOTHER extra attack with his Off-Hand weapon (at adjusted Bab-5).
Doug likes this, he would really be a 'badass' with FOUR attacks!
His Full attack now looks like: (remember, he gained a Bab from leveling)
+6 S/+6 K/+1 S/+1 K
That's a LOT better than a puny old
+8/+2


Final Note: Don't take Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. It sucks. You get a 3rd off-hand attack, at -10 Bab. You probably won't hit anything. And you need 19 Dexterity to take it. That's a lot. Especially if you need Str for hitting/damage.
The (partial) exception to this is Sneak Attack + Weapon Finesse. You have Dex-to-hit, so it is high anyway. And you don't need Str for damage, because Sneak Attack is more efficient.

[Keneth]

To be honest, I've found a magus with dervish dance to be more effective than a bard dervish dancer even though the abilities aren't quite as flavorful. Plus then you don't have to worry about dual wielding since you'll always be taking option one in order to use spell combat.

[Silus]

To be honest, I've found a magus with dervish dance to be more effective than a bard dervish dancer even though the abilities aren't quite as flavorful. Plus then you don't have to worry about dual wielding since you'll always be taking option one in order to use spell combat.

I confess, I've not looked at the Magus, but the Dervish Dancer archetype (as opposed to the scimitar based feat) is what I'm looking for. Beyond the feat, I've no idea how a Magus can get the same abilities as a Dervish Dancer Archetyped Bard...

[Keneth]

The Dervish Dancer archetype doesn't really get anything horribly unique. Let's review:

1) Proficiency: It's cool since those are your weapons of choice in most cases but proficiencies are easy to get. A magus is already proficient with all martial weapons though (including scimitar and kukri).
2) Battle dances are a nice buff since they're competence bonuses but you can only maintain one and at the levels you get these, not really something you couldn't do with Heroism or similar spells.
3) Haste at level 6 while dancing with no speed increase. A magus takes haste at level 7 as a spell anyway, and has plenty of chances to cast it with spell combat, plus it applies to the whole party. On the upside, a bard can also cast haste at level 7.
4) Keen weapon at level 8. A magus can make his weapon keen from lvl1 (if he has a +1 already) or at lvl5 at the latest. He also gets bonus fighter feats, so he can take improved crit later if he feels like it.
5) Leaf on the Wind is a very cool defensive ability. Magus is more of an offensive character, so dervish dancer wins this one flat out. Takes a standard action to maintain however and turtling is usually not the best strategy. Great for tactical repositioning however.
6) Enhancement bonus to land speed -- i.e. doesn't stack with haste and you have to be on the ground. A magus is gonna be using Fly and Haste from 7th level on for 90 ft. fly speed.
7) Perform instead of Acrobatics is nice since it combines well with the next two abilities (which require tumbling to be effective).
8) Ok, so you can attack while moving. But why would you want to? This is only really worth it when fighting a large amount of mooks (although personally I prefer to let them get to me rather than prancing around like an idiot) or getting into a flanking position. This is a level 12 ability? It's got flavor but lacks oomph.
9) Battle fury is something you see in a movie or read in a book. Up to 20 attacks per round? I'll take it. Sadly you have to wait 20 levels to get it and since you're not a real fighter, those attacks will be mediocre at best. It's more flashy than it is useful, not to mention that the other party members will hit you with a book if you're gonna roll 20 attacks in a row.

When I was considering what to play I weighed these abilities against a magus and I decided that the flavor wasn't really worth it, especially with our GM.

[Bhaakon]

I agree with your list, but wold point out that a bard can haste itself with the 2nd level spell allegro starting at level 4.

[Keneth]

Huh, I haven't even noticed that spell while I was reading UM. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Curious]

-Snip-

Uh, what? The Dervish gets an Extraordinary haste that scales with level, to the point where they essentially have full BAB, as they get a free extra attack, and +5 to all attacks.

Free bonuses to land speed are great, since it saves you having to cast any kind of spell or grab a magic item, and still have great mobility.

Free keen is also great, especially since it requires no action cost to activate.

Battle Dances aren't really comparable to higher level buff spells, it's true, but they can be activated as a swift action, so your action economy is superior anyways.

Being able to attack while moving is fantastic. Being unable to get all of your attacks off on the move is one of the greatest obstacles melee characters face in 3.P, and this gets around it handily.

Any Dervish Dancer bard activating Battle Fury is going to be hitting nearly just as often as a fighter would, probably more since he is going to be getting a bunch of bonuses from Inspire Courage at the same time. This ability is amazing, and it's only drawback is that it comes too late to see much use in most games.

EDIT: Also, Leaf on the Wind is. . . Sub-par. There are few situations I can think of where simply attacking would not be a better option.

[Keneth]

The Dervish gets an Extraordinary haste that scales with level, to the point where they essentially have full BAB, as they get a free extra attack, and +5 to all attacks. It's actually Supernatural, not Extraordinary. But it does scale with level and I didn't notice that, so yeah, it's better than I initially thought.


Free bonuses to land speed are great, since it saves you having to cast any kind of spell or grab a magic item, and still have great mobility.I'd rather have it than not but then again I'd rather not be on the ground, so it's kind of a moot point.


Battle Dances aren't really comparable to higher level buff spells, it's true, but they can be activated as a swift action, so your action economy is superior anyways. Superior to who? A wizard surely, but a magus, not really, they're pretty great as far as action economy is concerned.


Being able to attack while moving is fantastic. Being unable to get all of your attacks off on the move is one of the greatest obstacles melee characters face in 3.P, and this gets around it handily. Only really a problem if your opponent is kiting you instead of trying to kill you and only really a problem for pure melee types, never had this problem with a magus. And you still have to moving the whole time which is not always possible since you're on the ground.


Any Dervish Dancer bard activating Battle Fury is going to be hitting nearly just as often as a fighter would, probably more since he is going to be getting a bunch of bonuses from Inspire Courage at the same time. This ability is amazing, and it's only drawback is that it comes too late to see much use in most games. Hitting, yes. But 20 pinpricks while provoking attacks of opportunity is hardly an amazing ability. A barbarian with 5 attacks will easily outdamage you, so unless you're killing mooks, I fail to see your point.


EDIT: Also, Leaf on the Wind is. . . Sub-par. There are few situations I can think of where simply attacking would not be a better option. Yes, the use is situational, just like the use of the other abilities.

Please note that I wasn't arguing that the abilities are bad. I merely weighed them against those of a magus and it came on top every single time.

[Curious]

I'd rather have it than not but then again I'd rather not be on the ground, so it's kind of a moot point.

Not really, since it's still free bonuses to movement speed on a class based around mobility.



Superior to who? A wizard surely, but a magus, not really, they're pretty great as far as action economy is concerned.

Superior to just about anyone who isn't a fullcaster or, yes, the Magus. Neither of which is really much of a mark against it, since action economy is pretty much the Magus' main shtick.



Only really a problem if your opponent is kiting you instead of trying to kill you and only really a problem for pure melee types, never had this problem with a magus. And you still have to moving the whole time which is not always possible since you're on the ground.

The ability never says anything about you being restricted to ground movement, and no, getting all of your attacks off on a dedicated melee character is always a problem, cause if you don't then there goes pretty much all of your damage potential.



Hitting, yes. But 20 pinpricks while provoking attacks of opportunity is hardly an amazing ability. A barbarian with 5 attacks will easily outdamage you, so unless you're killing mooks, I fail to see your point.

The ability doesn't say anything about you having to use all the attacks against different enemies (although that may have been the intent). The actual actual text states that he can 'unleash a single attack at his highest bonus against each target within his reach during any point of his move', which does not exclude simply circling around one enemy, using all your attacks against him.



Yes, the use is situational, just like the use of the other abilities.

Please note that I wasn't arguing that the abilities are bad. I merely weighed them against those of a magus and it came on top every single time.

Oh, certainly, I would agree that a Magus is better at being a gish than the Dervish. I'm simply arguing that it is much better than it initially seems.

[Keneth]

Not really, since it's still free bonuses to movement speed on a class based around mobility. Point being? Like I said, getting it free is fine but I'd rather be flying at that level in which case it doesn't do anything.


The ability never says anything about you being restricted to ground movement, and no, getting all of your attacks off on a dedicated melee character is always a problem, cause if you don't then there goes pretty much all of your damage potential. Well make up your mind, are you gonna be on the ground or not? :smallbiggrin: And I didn't say it wasn't a problem for melee classes, I said it shouldn't happen often enough to make this ability shine. Plus a dervish dancer is not a purely melee class, it gets normal bard spell progression, unlike a fighter, you have other things you can do if you can't make a full attack.


The ability doesn't say anything about you having to use all the attacks against different enemies And I didn't mention anything about using it in such a manner but having 4 times as many attacks as a barbarian doesn't really amount to much if your attacks deal 4 times less damage. Like I said, if your damage output was on par with actual fighters, then it would be stellar but as such it's just great for obliterating mooks. But then again so is a fireball. Now if you had something like Frostbite, that would be awesome. :)