Maneuvers as Rewards

[TheMeMan]

Here's the Gist: I'm planning on DMing my first campaign and my brother is really dead-set on being a fighter... again. It worked out well in the past for the large reason that our previous DM basically made it up as we went along(As in you really could do damn near anything you wanted while attacking or what-have-you, as long as you described it and the DM would let it happen if the rolls worked in your favor). Thing is, I'm more of a rules-type person. Not necessarily hard-set on following them to an absolute T, mind you, but following them fairly closely.

The problem is, my brother will not like the fact that the Fighter is not a good class to take for any number of reasons, and will get bored (And whiny) very fast. He is adamant about going the fighter route, and doesn't even want to look at the Tome for inspiration. So I'm going to sneak it into the campaign.

The idea is rather simple: As a reward for certain quests, players can be awarded a Maneuver (Of my choosing) as an (Su) ability useable 1/encounter at their character level. Seems simple. Problem comes into calculating the cost of such a reward. I'm not to terribly hung up on if it's technically possible or not to do this, as I don't feel like re-writing classes. This is just the easiest way to get around the problem. Thing is, I don't want to completely screw the players with extremely well below what should be expected for a level, nor do I want to give them a massive boon that will wreck the encounters.

For a bit of background, if it helps, these people are quite frankly extremely low-op players. I got DMG-smacked by the previous DM for unwittingly over optimizing my Psychic Warrior(Which was not that powerful, but was wiping the floor with everything he through at us). So abuse or them becoming overpowering isn't the issue. The issue is spicing combat up.

So, what would be the price to gain of Maneuvers as permanent (Su) abilities?

[dgnslyr]

Price? Are you trying to figure out how much of their WBL it would take up? Well, there's items in ToB that grant maneuvers, like Belt of the Stone Dragon, or Crown of the White Raven, on page 149, that grant one maneuver for which you meet the prerequisites. They cost 3000gp, 15 000gp, and 45 000gp, respectively, and grant maneuvers of up to 3rd, 6th, and 9th level, respectively.

Why is this ability Su? Most maneuvers are inherently Ex abilities, so it seems odd that the bold swordsman suddenly forgets how to hit two people with one swift strike in an AMF.

[TheMeMan]

Price? Are you trying to figure out how much of their WBL it would take up? Well, there's items in ToB that grant maneuvers, like Belt of the Stone Dragon, or Crown of the White Raven, on page 149, that grant one maneuver for which you meet the prerequisites. They cost 3000gp, 15 000gp, and 45 000gp, respectively, and grant maneuvers of up to 3rd, 6th, and 9th level, respectively.

Why is this ability Su? Most maneuvers are inherently Ex abilities, so it seems odd that the bold swordsman suddenly forgets how to hit two people with one swift strike in an AMF.


Heh, I meant Ex, not Su. Was being none to intelligent there. And yes, the WBL ratio is what I'm curious about. I'm trying to avoid giving items was the main issue, as I'd rather have option to use the Maneuver to be freely and always available. However, I'd rather not add it necessarily on top of WBL, as that could easily get hinky. Further, I'm trying to find more unique methods of reward than stacking increasingly ridiculous amounts of loot on the players. Although that is helpful, and I'm completely dumbfounded as to why I didn't consider going by that.

[Slipperychicken]

They cost 3000gp, 15 000gp, and 45 000gp, respectively, and grant maneuvers of up to 3rd, 6th, and 9th level, respectively.


The magic item guidelines say prices are doubled for unslotted items. So it would be roughly [those prices x2], maybe x3 or more for the (Ex) tag. To me, that sounds pretty reasonable for 1/encounter abilities no one can ever take away.

[Alefiend]

Instead of making them item-based, why not have these maneuvers be awarded in the form of training? Even if it's from a magical source, such as a Wish or a tome, it represents knowledge that can't be taken away short of massive brain damage. This may have the added benefit of getting the player more comfortable with maneuvers as innate abilities.

As to scaling the reward to the character, just convert their level directly to their Initiator Level, rather than at the usual reduced rate for non-ToB classes. Whatever they qualify for, they can have.

[Feralventas]

I actually granted two of my players a maneuver to use 1/encounter. They were trying to get close to someone holding a legacy weapon which involved going into a training session with a number of other practitioners of the sublime path. One of them was placing a monster-PC, and so got a maneuver from the Tiger Claw school, while the Rogue got one from Shadow Hand. They spent time IC and in-game to do so, and I figured that there wasn't a need for monetary cost in and of itself.

If you feel you must put a price-tag on doing this, I would suggest you look into the cost for a Wizard to scribe a spell into a spell-book, have the training and practice take approximately the same time and GP value as a spell of the same maneuver level.

[TheMeMan]

The magic item guidelines say prices are doubled for unslotted items. So it would be roughly [those prices x2], maybe x3 or more for the (Ex) tag. To me, that sounds pretty reasonable for 1/encounter abilities no one can ever take away.

Ah, very helpful. That should make deciding on the reward pay out a bit easier on my end.




Instead of making them item-based, why not have these maneuvers be awarded in the form of training? Even if it's from a magical source, such as a Wish or a tome, it represents knowledge that can't be taken away short of massive brain damage. This may have the added benefit of getting the player more comfortable with maneuvers as innate abilities.

As to scaling the reward to the character, just convert their level directly to their Initiator Level, rather than at the usual reduced rate for non-ToB classes. Whatever they qualify for, they can have.


Actually, that's the plan I have in mind for how the maneuvers will be learned. The major reason I want the costs involved is so that I can adjust other rewards accordingly. As I said, it's a lo-op game, so the party Wizard getting loot while the Fighter gets something he problem should have had to begin with isn't going to be an issue in terms of raw power. I'll probably end up tweaking things here and there, as I'm not strictly following WBL.

The main reason I'm going this route is because there will be whining. Lots of it. So I need to have some way to properly justify giving out Ex abilities as rewards to people, and removing some of the monetary or item rewards is the way to go to make most everyone happy(As the casters can't complain that the Fighter gets awesome abilities AND magic items, and the Figther can't complain that the Wizard gets everything good).

By and large, they will be trained abilities, given out as rewards here and there for certain quests.



I actually granted two of my players a maneuver to use 1/encounter. They were trying to get close to someone holding a legacy weapon which involved going into a training session with a number of other practitioners of the sublime path. One of them was placing a monster-PC, and so got a maneuver from the Tiger Claw school, while the Rogue got one from Shadow Hand. They spent time IC and in-game to do so, and I figured that there wasn't a need for monetary cost in and of itself.

If you feel you must put a price-tag on doing this, I would suggest you look into the cost for a Wizard to scribe a spell into a spell-book, have the training and practice take approximately the same time and GP value as a spell of the same maneuver level.


Yeah, I'd really rather not need to worry about the cost, and I don't really plan on making characters literally pay for the maneuver. However, as I said, this is an extremely low-op game(Not willfully low-op, they really are not optimizers at all). Any boon given to any character over and above what the others get will not be taken kindly. So, I have to find some way to justify it to them if questions get brought up, and incorporating somehow into WBL is the easiest way.

As for the suggestion, that's another avenue I hadn't considered. I'll look into it.

Thanks all.

[Coidzor]

Just think of it like the magical locations that grant benefits such as feats, only, without the feats and just the benefits.

Really though, if you're doing it to bump up a fighter, you don't want to really be cutting into his WBL to be doing it.

[TheMeMan]

Just think of it like the magical locations that grant benefits such as feats, only, without the feats and just the benefits.

Really though, if you're doing it to bump up a fighter, you don't want to really be cutting into his WBL to be doing it.

I'd really rather not cut into WBL. The problem is that the social climate of the group is not exactly friendly when it comes to rewards. Think of it like grown men acting like 10-year olds who go over to their friend's house, see the new toy they have, and start begging their parents for something cool. My brother, who wants to play a fighter, is relatively competent(And the people who play caster completely incompetent much of the time). It's not so much to provide a large boost rather than to give something other than "I hit it with a stick. Again."

The other solution is to hand out equal SLA's to the casters, and equivalencies to other characters. But that would get ridiculous and fast. So, to keep the peace, so to speak, I'm going to have to offset it somehow. And the most readily visible way is cutting a bit into WBL. Not completely, obviously, but a bit.

[Cieyrin]

Since you're saying this Fighter is not likely to look at Martial Study, why not go the route of just granting him Martial Study as a bonus feat, as it covers all the mechanics you're throwing around here without impinging on WBL without going the route of messing with WBL via magic items or magic locations. As long as you don't go overboard with throwing bonus feats out and tie them into the story as actual awards, it tends to work out decently well. Will it solve the Tier disparity? No, but it's a solution I've seen work fine in more than one campaign without people getting whiny about disparate awards.