Charging Samurai, Shock Trooper and Banzai Charge...

[Cwymbran-San]

Hi playgrounders,

i was just wondering about this combo and if it might work. Books included in this little idea is: PHB, complete warrior and whatever book it was that Leaping Charge is in.

The question is: do the damage bonuses from Power Attack (during a Shock Trooper Charge) and Banzai Charge (from the Ronin Class) stack? Because if that is so, my calculation would be as follows:

Let's say, our Ronin has a BAB of 10 and the following feats: Power Attack, Leaping Charge, Shock Trooper (and the prereqs) and the Banzai Charge class feature and chose to Leap-Charge an enemy.

Charging means damage+2, right?

Power-attacking with a two-handed katana means double damage, so a 10 BAB Power Attack does 20 damage, transferred to AC via Shock Trooper.

Banzai Charge gives you another 10 damage, lowering your AC by another 10.

And Leaping Charge doubles all this again, right? So we do have weapon damage + (((2+20+10)*2) =) 64 damage per hit, with full AB +2 for charging?

I am new to the "Charger" concept, but that seems and enormous amount of damage output that no caster could hope to achieve. If this is truly viable, why does everybody in this forum state casters to be OP? Just one lost Initiative would serve, the sorc/wiz/fillintheblankwithasquishyrobedcaster would be one-shotted in an instant, or am i getting something wrong. Please enlighten me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hi playgrounders,

i was just wondering about this combo and if it might work. Books included in this little idea is: PHB, complete warrior and whatever book it was that Leaping Charge is in.

The question is: do the damage bonuses from Power Attack (during a Shock Trooper Charge) and Banzai Charge (from the Ronin Class) stack? Because if that is so, my calculation would be as follows:

Let's say, our Ronin has a BAB of 10 and the following feats: Power Attack, Leaping Charge, Shock Trooper (and the prereqs) and the Banzai Charge class feature and chose to Leap-Charge an enemy.

Charging means damage+2, right?

Power-attacking with a two-handed katana means double damage, so a 10 BAB Power Attack does 20 damage, transferred to AC via Shock Trooper.

Banzai Charge gives you another 10 damage, lowering your AC by another 10.

And Leaping Charge doubles all this again, right? So we do have weapon damage + (((2+20+10)*2) =) 64 damage per hit, with full AB +2 for charging?Yes and no... it's a bit more complicated than you seem to think


I am new to the "Charger" concept, but that seems and enormous amount of damage output that no caster could hope to achieve. If this is truly viable, why does everybody in this forum state casters to be OP? Just one lost Initiative would serve, the sorc/wiz/fillintheblankwithasquishyrobedcaster would be one-shotted in an instant, or am i getting something wrong. Please enlighten me.

Because a caster will never lose initiative to melee. Ever. No, not even then. And even if he does, he still has Celerity so that he can still act outside his turn before your attack has a chance to land. Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack does nicely.

Then there's the matter of how the melee character can reach the caster who is sipping tea in his demiplane while Astrally Projecting himself into reality...

[Randomguy]

By leaping charge do you mean leap attack? Because that would triple the damage, but only the damage from power attack, so you'd do 60+2+10 damage per hit (i think), but without pounce you can only attack once at the end of a charge. That's why spirit lion totem barbarian is so popular.

[Cwymbran-San]

Yes, i meant Leaping Attack, and i still think this is a sick amount of damage.

How come a caster would never lose initiative? If i calculated right, the melee would have to be around lv10 to pull of that trick, does a caster have this Celerity-trick (never heard of that in english, please teach me about it) by then? Or Contingency spells, aren't they 6th level?

So many questions, and none of my books at hand...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, i meant Leaping Attack, and i still think this is a sick amount of damage.

How come a caster would never lose initiative? If i calculated right, the melee would have to be around lv10 to pull of that trick, does a caster have this Celerity-trick (never heard of that in english, please teach me about it) by then? Or Contingency spells, aren't they 6th level?

So many questions, and none of my books at hand...

First off... Nerveskitter + Improved Initiative. As a 1st level caster, I have a +8 to initiative. Before stats and other considerations. Yes, I am going first.

Abrupt Jaunt is also online at 1st level. You charge. Before your first attack lands, I teleport out of your reach as an immediate action. You have now wasted your entire turn.

At level 5, the problem arises of how a fighter can REACH or FIND the wizard, since he is likely to be flying or invisible.

Then, when you hit level 7, Celerity shows up. As an immediate action, I get a standard action. Even if you go first, I stop you in the middle of your action to get an action. Dimension Door is often good enough to simply get out of reach long enough to destroy you.

Also at level 7 is Polycheese, and Dire Tortoise for IMMUNITY TO SURPRISE comes online.

At level 9, Overland Flight ensures you can never reach me, by level 12, Phantom Steed obviates it.

At level 11, Contingency comes online. You will never catch a wizard ever again. I promise.

[Nerd-o-rama]

That's assuming a perfectly optimized and omniscient wizard fighting solo against this one guy. Like every single thread ever and no actual game ever does.

Don't worry, OP, assuming you can reach the enemy, this is a pretty good melee damage build. Try to find some way to get the Rhino's Charge spell from the Paladin or Ranger list if you can.

The problem with casters is that, played perfectly, you're just not going to be able to engage them in melee. That's the basic essence of the argument. For a melee charger to beat a spellcaster, you have to find some way to take them completely by surprise, which people on the internet will tell you is completely impossible because of Divination spells that no one in real life ever prepares. It becomes an apples and oranges question where raw damage is meaningless in the face of invisible flying astrally projected timestopped celerity targets.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's assuming a perfectly optimized and omniscient wizard fighting solo against this one guy. Like every single thread ever and no actual game ever does.Not really. Picking a strong ACF (Abrupt Jaunt) makes you immune to this kind of threat completely. That's not 'perfectly optimized', that's a single 1st level option.

The rest are simply standard spell choices, with no attempt at serious optimization.

He asked why people think wizards are OP... I answered. Incidentally, these tactics work on a swarm as easily as a single individual.


Don't worry, OP, assuming you can reach the enemy, this is a pretty good melee damage build. Try to find some way to get the Rhino's Charge spell from the Paladin or Ranger list if you can.Oh, sure, it's a perfectly fine Charger build. Make sure to have a Valorous weapon as well.


The problem with casters is that, played perfectly, you're just not going to be able to engage them in melee. That's the basic essence of the argument. For a melee charger to beat a spellcaster, you have to find some way to take them completely by surprise, which people on the internet will tell you is completely impossible because of Divination spells that no one in real life ever prepares. It becomes an apples and oranges question where raw damage is meaningless in the face of invisible flying astrally projected timestopped celerity targets.

I'm sorry, but that's a Straw Man argument.

Polymorph is a 4th level spell, available by level 7. Polymorphing into a Dire Tortoise will completely prevent and negate any and all attempts at catching the caster by surprise. Period. Yes, even then. It requires zero Divination whatsoever.

Celerity is also a 4th level spell and lets you take a standard action as an immediate action. Sure, you are stunned the following round, but if you don't want to bother shifting into something immune to stunning, then simply make sure your shot counts and ends the encounter. The spell Slow, for example, is multi-target Will Save or Screwed. It shuts down charging completely, which entirely negates the suggested build. Or, if your opponents look to have low Fort saves, Stinking Cloud and 'you are helpless for 1d4 rounds'. If you can't figure out how to finish them by then... you need to turn in your PhB.

Before then, Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, available by level 3. It renders you immune to anything opponents would like to try and do, because they don't know you are there. As long as you don't make an attack, you're perfectly safely invisible. 'not attacking' includes most of the wizard's most powerful arsenal at that level... Grease, Web, and Glitterdust to shut down opponents. Because they aren't attacks, it doesn't negate their invisibility.

There is no 'uber optimization' involved. It's reasonably common and competent spell selection.

When you negate your opponent's ability to affect you, it is irrelevant how much damage they can apply, because they will not be given an opportunity to apply it.

[Cwymbran-San]

Thank you for the input, i did not want to turn this into a "this-class/spec-is-better-than-that-one". I was just wondering.

Just for comparison, i was talking about lv10 (the level of my players), so getting away by means of Celerity and Dimension Door would be an option.

I imagine the following situation:

There is no surprise round, both players roll for Ini, melee player loses. Caster starts blasting since he is far enough away. Melee player charges, caster uses Celerity for a Dimension Door Out Of The Way, still staying in the same are (he still needs LoS to cast). Player has only moved, i would therefor rule he has a Standard action left, activating his Dragonmark of Travel for an ethereal jaunt next to the caster.
Both players are back to Step One, with the difference both standing next to each other.
And trust me, i know my players and my dice when i DM, when that melee character rolls initiative next turn, i will roll a 3 and him an 18, so that +8 initiative on my precious caster npc is worth...hm, nothing.

Rules question: as far as i understand from the rules (and maybe this kind of detail is lost in translation as i have german handbooks), a charge is a move action, ending with an attack, thus completing a full-round-action und making the abovementioned example viable.

Comments?

EDIT: Damn, too slow, another post made in between.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thank you for the input, i did not want to turn this into a "this-class/spec-is-better-than-that-one". I was just wondering.

Just for comparison, i was talking about lv10 (the level of my players), so getting away by means of Celerity and Dimension Door would be an option.

I imagine the following situation:

There is no surprise round, both players roll for Ini, melee player loses. Caster starts blasting since he is far enough away. Melee player charges, caster uses Celerity for a Dimension Door Out Of The Way, still staying in the same are (he still needs LoS to cast).
No. Wizard doesn't blast. Wizard never blasts. Wizard casts Slow. Melee player is now prohibited from charging and is negated as a threat. No need to DimDoor away.

And I am trying to play 'fair'. If I wasn't playing fair, I would end you with negative levels. Split Ray Empowered Enervation, to be specific. 2d4*1.5 negative levels. With Arcane Thesis, a Slaymate, and School Specialization, this is still a 4th level spell. Now THAT, my friend, is starting to qualify as 'cheese'.


Player has only moved, i would therefor rule he has a Standard action left, activating his Dragonmark of Travel for an ethereal jaunt next to the caster.Charging is a full-round action. He has declared to charge, thus he uses his full-round action. Sorry.


And trust me, i know my players and my dice when i DM, when that melee character rolls initiative next turn, i will roll a 3 and him an 18, so that +8 initiative on my precious caster npc is worth...hm, nothing.Then simply Abrupt Jaunt when the opponent gets close to deny him action.


Rules question: as far as i understand from the rules (and maybe this kind of detail is lost in translation as i have german handbooks), a charge is a move action, ending with an attack, thus completing a full-round-action und making the abovementioned example viable.

Comments?

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)

"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move."

[CTrees]

No. Wizard doesn't blast. Wizard never blasts. Wizard casts Slow. Melee player is now prohibited from charging and is negated as a threat. No need to DimDoor away.

And I am trying to play 'fair'. If I wasn't playing fair, I would end you with negative levels. Split Ray Empowered Enervation, to be specific. 2d4*1.5 negative levels. With Arcane Thesis, a Slaymate, and School Specialization, this is still a 4th level spell. Now THAT, my friend, is starting to qualify as 'cheese'.


Honestly... this sounds completely reasonable for some tables, but for tables where enemy wizards do a lot of blasting, a charger may be relevant (and an NPC wizard or sorceror, tossing around fire and lightning? Fairly fun!). Also, not every wizard is a wizard played competently, much less intelligently.

Also, Slow does not stop all charging

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, thankfully, my DM banned Celerity. I know, it exists, and has to be considered in a neutral discussion, but it is still the most broken spell in an edition loaded down with game-breaking spells.

I'd also argue against the sense of using one's almighty arcane prowess to spend all day every day as a giant tortoise, but you know what? That's entirely up to an individual wizard's taste.

The thing is, OP, Wizards had a million means to negate melee attempts to do them in even in 3rd/3.5 core, and splatbooks have made that number infinitely higher. If you're a DM playing a spellcaster, and you want encounters to be beatable (you could have specified that in the OP, incidentally), you cannot use all of a wizard's options, especially since it's easy for the DM to metagame a counter to his player's abilities (which is always the best option for a wizard, as they have in-game metagaming). A wizard, perfectly played, will always beat a melee character perfectly played. EDIT: Barring luck at low to mid levels where spells actually have saving throws.

To actually answer your intended question, your Ronin charger will probably spatter any wizards who are unbuffed and surprised in one hit, but if he doesn't, he's in trouble because of attack-negating spells and save-or-loses.

[Killer Angel]

Charging means damage+2, right?


+2 to hit



And Leaping Charge doubles all this again, right? So we do have weapon damage + (((2+20+10)*2) =) 64 damage per hit, with full AB +2 for charging?

I am new to the "Charger" concept, but that seems and enormous amount of damage output that no caster could hope to achieve.

Young padawan, I fear this is not true... :smallwink:

[Telonius]

Hi playgrounders,

i was just wondering about this combo and if it might work. Books included in this little idea is: PHB, complete warrior and whatever book it was that Leaping Charge is in.

The question is: do the damage bonuses from Power Attack (during a Shock Trooper Charge) and Banzai Charge (from the Ronin Class) stack? Because if that is so, my calculation would be as follows:

Let's say, our Ronin has a BAB of 10 and the following feats: Power Attack, Leaping Charge, Shock Trooper (and the prereqs) and the Banzai Charge class feature and chose to Leap-Charge an enemy.

Charging means damage+2, right?

Power-attacking with a two-handed katana means double damage, so a 10 BAB Power Attack does 20 damage, transferred to AC via Shock Trooper.

Banzai Charge gives you another 10 damage, lowering your AC by another 10.

And Leaping Charge doubles all this again, right? So we do have weapon damage + (((2+20+10)*2) =) 64 damage per hit, with full AB +2 for charging?

I am new to the "Charger" concept, but that seems and enormous amount of damage output that no caster could hope to achieve. If this is truly viable, why does everybody in this forum state casters to be OP? Just one lost Initiative would serve, the sorc/wiz/fillintheblankwithasquishyrobedcaster would be one-shotted in an instant, or am i getting something wrong. Please enlighten me.

Okay, let's say a level 10 character charges and power attacks for -10, using Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, wielding a two-handed weapon. Charging gives a +2 to hit, -2AC, generally. You power attack, -10 to hit gives +20 damage (from being two-handed). That is the only damage from Power Attack you're getting. Leap Attack only increases extra damage from Power Attack, not extra damage from any other source. Since it's a two-handed weapon, this results in +30 (so far).
This is and has been a huge point of confusion, due to a very strangely-worded errata to Leap Attack. The errata shows that you get +100% to normal power attack damage when you use Leap Attack. Remember that when using multiple multipliers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying), you don't just add the multipliers. A x2 multiplier and another x2 multiplier result in a x3 multiplier, not a x4 multiplier.

So if you're using Power Attack with a normal weapon, you get +1 damage for every -1 to hit. When you Power Attack/Leap Attack with a one-handed weapon, you get +2 damage (+1 + [100% of +1] = +2) for every -1 you take to hit. When you power attack with a two-handed weapon, you normally get +2 damage damage for every -1 you take to hit. (+1 + [100% of +1] = +2). Adding Leap Attack means you get (+1 + [100% of +1] + [100% of +1]) = +3, for every -1 you take to hit.


You use Shock Trooper to shift the -10 to attack, to a -10 to AC. You use Banzai Charge to take an additional -10 penalty to AC, but get +10 to damage.

So, all told, you get +2 to hit (charging), +40 damage (power attack, leap attack, banzai charge), -22 AC (charging, shock trooper, banzai charge).

[Manateee]

Given Polymorph's minute/level duration, it still takes some Divinations or a reliable scout to dependably have the buff up when it matters. But with the Wizard's spell list that's still not much of an obstacle.

I'm curious about people who've successfully used the Dire Tortoise tactic though - do we assume Surrogate Spellcasting in those builds, a standard action to dismiss the polymorph, or some other way for a tortoise to use verbal/somatic/material components?

w/r/t OP
Yeah, this should be a workable damage build.

You could definitely crank it higher still (a wand chamber/wand of Rhino's Rush and a level dip for pounce somewhere would go a long way for little cost), but after the cheap damage increasers, you'd probably be better off spending resources to get around common melee obstacles like flight, blink or illusions, or to develop a second trick for when charge damage doesn't autokill - 4000 damage is no better than 400 when 400 punches through a monster's HP defense.

And if casters can chain-gate Titans for an arbitrarily high number of Meteor Swarms (not the best tactical option, but certainly flashy) as a standard action, you're still going to have some problems competing in damage - esp. at higher levels. Or at low levels, they can eg. Lesser Planar Bind a big pile Formian Overseers, which in turn can basically dominate whatever they like. Even dominating something lame like cows, that wizard with 4 taskmasters is going to do about as much damage as a real charger before accounting for his own actions.

As a rule of thumb, don't worry about what casters are doing; they're playing a different game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Given Polymorph's minute/level duration, it still takes some Divinations or a reliable scout to dependably have the buff up when it matters. But with the Wizard's spell list that's still not much of an obstacle.Rope Trick also lets you press a reset button whenever you like.


I'm curious about people who've successfully used the Dire Tortoise tactic though - do we assume Surrogate Spellcasting in those builds, a standard action to dismiss the polymorph, or some other way for a tortoise to use verbal/somatic/material components?Natural Spell. It's not just for Druids anymore.


And if casters can chain-gate Titans for an arbitrarily high number of Meteor Swarms (not the best tactical option, but certainly flashy) as a standard action, you're still going to have some problems competing in damage - esp. at higher levels. Or at low levels, they can eg. Lesser Planar Bind a big pile Formian Overseers, which in turn can basically dominate whatever they like. Even dominating something lame like cows, that wizard with 4 taskmasters is going to do about as much damage as a real charger before accounting for his own actions.

As a rule of thumb, don't worry about what casters are doing; they're playing a different game.

Chain-gating titans is cheesy, arbitrary, and old hat. Mailman builds beat melee at the damage game a lot easier with lower level spell slots.

But yes... Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Bushido Charge is always a fun combination. Even better with a Valorous weapon for another damage multiplier on a charge.

[Master Thrower]

Rope Trick also lets you press a reset button whenever you like.

Natural Spell. It's not just for Druids anymore.



Chain-gating titans is cheesy, arbitrary, and old hat. Mailman builds beat melee at the damage game a lot easier with lower level spell slots.

But yes... Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Bushido Charge is always a fun combination. Even better with a Valorous weapon for another damage multiplier on a charge.

Well A, unless your using Divine Minion Cheese, which is possible considering your trying to play schodingers wizard, no your not getting natural spell, and yes while chain-gating is cheesy, so is using celerity+dire tortoise to say oop well I always go first.
B. For Trick is far from a reset button, you still need eight hours to rest, (two with a ring of sustenance, but many things can get around rope trick at higher levels, transdimentional spell etc.

But in the end it comes down to, if your DM lets the wizard run rampant then yes charging builds, and most other melee builds will be useless, but apart from that high a level of optimization, charging builds are fun to play

[Hiro Protagonest]

Abrupt Jaunt doesn't work on the first round if you lose init. You can't use immediate actions while flat-footed.

Anyway, this is level 20, right? A single Meteor Swarm (highly unoptimized use of a 9th level spell slot, but it's there) deals more damage than that charge. Then there's the fact that you can completely surround yourself with expendable meat shields with Time Stop + multiple Summon Monster III, to summon 1d4+1 Summon Monster I creatures for each summon. And did I mention you always have Foresight up? Oh, and I'm a transmuter, banned necromancy and enchantment.

And that's all core-only. Outside of core, there's Arcane Thesis and Practiced Metamagic (or whatever it's called), so take Practiced Metamagic for Maximize or Empower, and cast Empowered Maximized Orb of Fire as a 6th level spell slot for 120+10d6 damage.

Oh, and you're always 100 feet in the air, thanks to Overland Flight. You only walk when you're in buildings, and even then if they have high ceilings you fly.

[herrhauptmann]

Oh, sure, it's a perfectly fine Charger build. Make sure to have a Valorous weapon as well.

And a Smoking weapon. (Lords of darkness). For lower costs, I'd suggest putting it on your armor spikes or the shield spikes on your animated shield. It has some disadvantages. Like doesn't work in the middle of movement. If you're big, you'll need multiples as well. (Shield spikes, armor spikes, spiked gauntlet, main weapon)

It'll grant you miss chances. And since you're likely to be sinking your AC to single digits, getting 20% miss chance is a lot better than getting hit 95% of the time.

[Suddo]

Abrupt Jaunt doesn't work on the first round if you lose init. You can't use immediate actions while flat-footed.

Anyway, this is level 20, right?

They are more looking at level 10 sense that is when the melee build peaks and the caster might as well play with his hand tied behind his back.

So one point that isn't brought up by the wizards is that the melee build is pretty optimized and you haven't even started optimizing. Polymorph is a normal spell choice; Abrupt Jaunt is a reasonable choice sense conjuration is a reasonable choice (PHB pg 70); flight and invisiblity are both normal spell choices and if the wizard gets a turn can use either to simply deny the warrior the ability to get to him (I prefer invisiblity due to the warrior maybe jumping 30ft); Celerity I've always thought a bit on the cheesy side of things but it is there, and I've heard plenty of people say that uber-chargers are ridiculous too but I'll disclude it from my arguments due to the fact I don't ever like it; Overland Flight is awesome.

So if the wizard wins initiative. He can do this during his turn unoptimized:
Cast Invisible, Move away, preferably behind a tree or something to make charging hard to pull off.
If he's paranoid:
Quicken Cast grease around the fighter, Then do the norm.
If he loses init:
Fighter charges. Wizard Abjurant Jaunts away. Wizard's turn does either of the above.

This is without optimization beyond picking Abjurant Jaunt which rules.

With optimization:
Wizard 5 / Incarnatrix 5
Human: Iron Will
Wizard 1: Twinned
Level 1: Improved Init
Level 3: Arcane Thesis (Ray of Stupidity)
Wizard 5: Residual Metamagic
Incarnatrix 1: Quicken Spell
Level 9: Empower Spell
Incarnatrix 4: Maximized

Ray of Stupidity: 1d4+1 int damage. Enhancement Spell. 1st Level.
Maximized + 3
Twinned +4
Arcane Thesis -3
That's a 4th Level Spell that deals 10 int damage to you.
Or I could gamble on a Empowered Twinned Ray for a 1d4 + 1 * 3, average of 11.5, and see if I kill you. Its two separate empowered rays so the bonus is multiplied.
Oh and I can now cast that every turn till you have 0 int and go into a coma.

That's without dipping into obscure things. Obscurest thing is the Incarnatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun. And yes I could do something similar without it. It simply buys me 1 more feat at this level.

Oh and if I have a wand of Dimensional Door or other teleporting spells. I can burn 3 extra, 4 total, charges to Dimensional Door as a swift action.

Oops almost didn't contribute. To the OP. Give me a sec:

This guide is awesome:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon

[Cwymbran-San]

Ok, discussed this shortly with my players on the phone last night. Answer by the party's wizard: "Hell, then i will just prepare counterspelling in case the bastard wants to jaunt away and let our swordswinger do the rest!"

Viable option? Can you counterspell an immediate action? To my understanding only if you win initiative, correct? Sorry for all the nnob-ish questions, my books are german as i said before and i am not always sure about the translations, they sometimes seem misleading (i.e. the charging rules, which make the charge just like a special form of movement, not attack).

I feel like a complete newbie, and this with 15 years of D&D gaming under my belt :smallbiggrin:

[Zaq]

You can counterspell an immediate spell (if you have your own readied action or other immediate counter prepped, of course), but you can't counter Abrupt Jaunt, since it's not a spell. It's a spell-like ability.

Also, I'd warn you against bringing other entities into this mess, since it's going to make it even uglier really quickly.

[NeoSeraphi]

Then, when you hit level 7, Celerity shows up. As an immediate action, I get a standard action. Even if you go first, I stop you in the middle of your action to get an action. Dimension Door is often good enough to simply get out of reach long enough to destroy you.


This is just not correct. You may not use immediate actions while flat-footed. If he goes first, you may not cast celerity in response to his charge.

Edit: Not to mention, at 7th level you only have one 4th level generalist spell slot per day. Assuming an optimized Intelligence score of 20-24 at 7th level, that's a second slot, meaning you can cast celerity up to twice per day, or just once if you're a focused specialist (you said to be a conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt, right?)

Most groups have more than 2 encounters per day, and even if they don't, interrupting two charges per day won't save you if you're fighting more than three melee creatures per encounter (and that Abrupt Jaunt doesn't last forever...)

Edit II: @OP- Hey, don't worry about dealing with wizards. The thing about optimized PCs is, well...generally you don't have to deal with them. Unless your DM is trying to test you or he's a jerk he's not going to give normal enemies powerful abilities like celerity or time stop.

Remember, the DM's job is to help you guys enjoy the game. If you're just being shut down, you're not going to enjoy the game. The DM might get some damage reduction to make your attacks take longer to kill, or he might get some flight so that you have to rely on a backup weapon, or he might turn invisible so you have to wait until the creature strikes before you strike back, but chances are, you won't have to fight a seriously optimized spellcaster. If nothing else, those are a serious pain in the ass with all the bookkeeping, and a DM already has enough of that to deal with.

[Frosty]

If you want a fair slightly more fair wizard, use the 3.5 Wizard chassis with the Pathfinder wizard spells. Yeah a lot of the broken stuff is still there, but Celerity is gone. Polymorph has been majorly nerfed. Most metamagic reducers are gone. No nerveskitter. No Abrupt Jaunt. You're not auto-winning init anymore.

Now you just have to worry about seeing the invisible wizard and bringing a bow in case of Fly. You can also run away until the duration runs out.

[Cwymbran-San]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I was just mentioning my players as they are the ones who would be facing this nightmare.
And concerning optimization: we are not crunching that much, just PHB, the Complete Series and ToB (for the odd Swordsage among a group of core classes :smalltongue:).
And even with this, the fighter/samurai-player came up with the abovementioned build.

[Suddo]

If you want a fair slightly more fair wizard, use the 3.5 Wizard chassis with the Pathfinder wizard spells. Yeah a lot of the broken stuff is still there, but Celerity is gone. Polymorph has been majorly nerfed. Most metamagic reducers are gone. No nerveskitter. No Abrupt Jaunt. You're not auto-winning init anymore.

Now you just have to worry about seeing the invisible wizard and bringing a bow in case of Fly. You can also run away until the duration runs out.

Or just play tier 3 and 4 and be happy. I mean that's what I do for the most part. I only go above it when: A) Can play an artificer; B) Told X isn't that powerful; or C) Am trying out something to know how powerful it is. Beyond that I stay in tier 3 and 4. Maybe tier 2 if I'm playing nice.
If you are trying to nerf wizards just stop and decide to play another class that's not as silly. I mean even a Wu-Jen is a better choice. It doesn't get all the silly spells. Gets some cool flavor and some cool spells of its own.