How to play a samurai (=Warblade)?

[danzibr]

So a while back I was kind of obsessed with making a playable Samurai (the CW one). I read Shneekey's stuff and all. But then I posted on another thread about a cool two-man party being a Samurai and Ninja, and someone responded they agreed, but with Warblade and Swordsage. Then I thought...

If you wanted to play as a samurai (no caps) would you make a Warblade and roleplay the samurai part of it?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yep. Different disciplines represent different types of samurai. Bog standard? Iron Heart and Diamond Mind. Musashi? Tiger Claw. Warlord? White Raven.

[tyckspoon]

Really depends on what you want/expect a 'samurai' to be- it's not a well-defined concept, especially in fantasy (I suppose for accuracy's sake it's a defined thing, but that thing is so broad that you have to decide which part(s) of it you're using for your idea.) That said, there are very few melee-weapon-fighter concepts that can't be covered with Warblade in some fashion. So.. answer to your question: Yes. Build as a Warblade, roleplay whatever kind of social class/personality type you wanted.

[Manateee]

I'd definitely recommend adding some levels in a class with bow proficiencies and Ride early in the build (both for the skill and proficiencies and to delay the fourth-level stance). Maybe even digging up a homebrew ranged discipline (or class).

[sonofzeal]

I'd definitely recommend adding some levels in a class with bow proficiencies and Ride early in the build (both for the skill and proficiencies and to delay the fourth-level stance).
Fighter2 is good for exactly this reason.

[hex0]

Fighter2 is good for exactly this reason.

Ranger 2 would work as well, but not as flavorful. If Iajutsu Focus is allowed, Factblade has great samurai feel and you'll nab ranged weapon profeciencies. Both classes benefit from decent INT score. (Factotum 3 or 8 and Warblade 17 or 12)

[Zonugal]

Fighter2 is good for exactly this reason.

Two levels of the Samurai class from OA would work well. +3 to Fort & Will, nice skills (including Iajutsu Focus), a bonus feat and a magical weapon for your entire career.

[Grendus]

As always, it depends on the power level you want to go for. If you're in a low op party, the CW samurai isn't too terrible. A core only fighter, monk, healer, and a CW samurai will work just fine together. In a more middle of the road party, an optimized Fighter or Warblade would probably fit the concept best. In high op, you're looking at a gish, probably a sorcadin or psionic build. It all comes down to context.

[danzibr]

Hmm, yeah, I could've been more clear. My wife and I were in Wendy's talking about how we think of the Hollywood samurai. We came up with things like noble, honorable, strong, intelligence, fast, intimidating, those sorts of things. I thought it would be cool (and, well, I do still think it's cool) to try to optimize the CW Samurai, but as far as just playing a samurai, the class is unimportant to me.

Some things any samurai should have, methinks: bastard sword/katana, scary armor, high BAB. Despite being in my eighth semester of Japanese in a university, I know crap about their history or culture. It would be interesting to learn how they fought and behaved in real life, since I kind of doubt Hollywood catches it accurately.

[tyckspoon]

Hmm, yeah, I could've been more clear. My wife and I were in Wendy's talking about how we think of the Hollywood samurai. We came up with things like noble, honorable, strong, intelligence, fast, intimidating, those sorts of things. I thought it would be cool (and, well, I do still think it's cool) to try to optimize the CW Samurai, but as far as just playing a samurai, the class is unimportant to me.

Some things any samurai should have, methinks: bastard sword/katana, scary armor, high BAB. Despite being in my eighth semester of Japanese in a university, I know crap about their history or culture. It would be interesting to learn how they fought and behaved in real life, since I kind of doubt Hollywood catches it accurately.

Ah. Most of that is personality trait and/or personal image decisions, yes, which are largely unrelated to the class you use for your mechanics. 'Intimidating' can be done with skill points, feats, and gear choices well enough to replicate most of the things the CW Samurai gets for it if you want mechanics to back that angle.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A warblade can also make use of the Takahashi no Onisan intimidation tricks, wouldn't work exactly like that because it uses some CWar Samurai features; but the bare basics might work.... it was Fearsome Armour Enhancement and imperious comand IRCC

[Nerd-o-rama]

If you want Hollywood Samurai, you want either wuxia, things that inspired wuxia, or period high drama with a token sword fight. Tome of Battle is all about modeling wuxia films in D&D, so it seems like a very good bet for the first two. For the latter, you're...well, you're not talking about the latter.

I'd say any of the ToB classes could model some interpretation of samurai, really, but Warblade is closest in mechanical abilities to the "standard" idea.

[gkathellar]

The good fit seems intentional to me — Diamond Mind has bastard sword as a favored weapon, I wonder why.

[danzibr]

One thing I forgot to ask about is race. Are there any races that have honor and whatnot strongly fluffed into their background? I personally think Hellbred makes for a baddonkey samurai, but there's also a lot out there I don't know about.

[Zonugal]

One thing I forgot to ask about is race. Are there any races that have honor and whatnot strongly fluffed into their background? I personally think Hellbred makes for a baddonkey samurai, but there's also a lot out there I don't know about.

Dwarves tend to work well with the themes of honor, nobility, servitude and such commonly associated with Samurai.

[Urpriest]

Hobgoblins are pretty fun fluffwise, though they're pretty bad for LA +1

[Dusk Eclipse]

They are the posterchilds of how badly designed LA is, OP I suggest you ask your DM to knock off the Hobgoblin's LA to 0.

[Zonugal]

They are the posterchilds of how badly designed LA is, OP I suggest you ask your DM to knock off the Hobgoblin's LA to 0.

Or give them features to elevate them to proper +1 LA status.

[BIGMamaSloth]

Or give them features to elevate them to proper +1 LA status.

ya I think theres about 12 different homebrews on these boards for correcting hobgoblins, up or down.

[Endarire]

You could just say, "I'm a Warblade who's acting like a Samurai and will follow these codes," regardless of race.

[Optimator]

If I wanted to make a samurai character, I would definitely use Warblade 20. It's just too perfect. One can make all kinds of samurai with Warblades, Crusaders, and Swordsages.

[Novawurmson]

The Pathfinder hobgoblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/hobgoblin) isn't great... but hey, better than having +1 LA.

[gkathellar]

If I wanted to make a samurai character, I would definitely use Warblade 20. It's just too perfect. One can make all kinds of samurai with Warblades, Crusaders, and Swordsages.

To expound on this point for anyone who's seen Seven Samurai (and if you haven't, you should):

Kambei Shimada: Crusader 5, mostly Devoted Spirit and White Raven.
Katsushiro: Warblade 1, generic Iron Heart specialist.
Gorobei: Warblade 3, favoring Diamond Mind and White Raven.
Shichiroji: Warblade 4 with Iron Heart and Diamond Mind.
Heihachi: Crusader 2 with White Raven and Stone Dragon.
Kyuzo: Swordsage 8, using a mix of Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand.
Kikuchiyo: Crusader 3, with Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon.

The bandits being a mix of 1st-3rd level fighters, rogues, rangers and barbarians. It works out perfectly.

[danzibr]

I think I'm going to go Warforged samurai, being something like Warforged Samurai 1/Fighter 1/Warblade X/maybe a PrC. Samurai 1's to use the katana, I don't know what Fighter 1 would be for, though it would be nice to get some archery in.

[gkathellar]

I think I'm going to go Warforged samurai, being something like Warforged Samurai 1/Fighter 1/Warblade X/maybe a PrC. Samurai 1's to use the katana, I don't know what Fighter 1 would be for, though it would be nice to get some archery in.

Honestly, skip the samurai level. If you're really committed to using an actual bastard sword you can do it with two hands as a martial weapon — you'll deal a lot more damage and the fighting style will actually be a lot more like the way most kenjutsu works.

If you're okay with refluffing, just use a greatsword or elven courtblade or something and call it a katana.

[Keneth]

How do a samurai and a ninja make sense as a two man party? The former is a high class soldier (usually a noble) serving the local lord and the latter a well-trained commoner militiaman and mercenary doing the dirty jobs. It's like making a party with a paladin and a rogue. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Per Complete Warrior, Bastard Swords and Katanas are interchangeable. In addition, Short Swords and Wakizashis are interchangeable. (This is reinforced in Complete Divine.)

[danzibr]

How do a samurai and a ninja make sense as a two man party? The former is a high class soldier (usually a noble) serving the local lord and the latter a well-trained commoner militiaman and mercenary doing the dirty jobs. It's like making a party with a paladin and a rogue. :smallbiggrin:
Oh, that was a total joke.

As for the EWP: Bastard Sword... yeah, it totally makes sense to skip it. My dude would only ever use is two-handed.

[Keneth]

Oh, that was a total joke. Damn, and here I thought you had some kind of cool justification.

Contrasted characters make for great romantic couples if nothing else. :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

If your wife wants to play a Ninja, then I suggest looking at a homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186505) or the Oriental Adventures Ninja Spy PrC. Like the CW Samurai, the Comp Adventurer Ninja is garbage.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah skip CW samurai levels entirely unless you really want to jiten-ryu with 10 dexterity. Fighter 2 for bonus feats is never really a bad option for melee characters, though. Loses you out on your capstone, but 18 levels with two extra combat feats is probably more utility than one level with dual stances.

EDIT: Unless you meant one level of OA Samurai, which I'm not sure what that gives you other than EWP bastard sword which you don't need.

[gkathellar]

How do a samurai and a ninja make sense as a two man party? The former is a high class soldier (usually a noble) serving the local lord and the latter a well-trained commoner militiaman and mercenary doing the dirty jobs.

What? No. Hattori Hanzo was born into nobility, and was Tokugawa Ieyasu's standard-bearer on the field. Ninjas of the Iga and Koga noble clans often served openly as palace guards. At least one of the three groups usually invoked to form the composite "ninja" image were just the subsection of samurai who were professional espionage experts.

[Cwymbran-San]

As for the cultural aspect, i could shed some light on this as it was my subject in Ancient History in college, but i would not want to rant on this thread unless asked.
Samurai (master) and ninja (servant) would indeed go well together, as the ninja is usually a commoner, nothing he/she does would ever bother the samurai. A commoner has no honor to be lost, so there is nothing the samurai would need worry about. If the ninja would be disguised as his student, he would indeed keep a close eye on his actions as they would all fall back on him (student disgracing the master was a sure way of getting the samurai to commit seppuku).
Gaming reference: The Ronin PrC is always nice if you combine the two concepts, if only for Banzai Charge (my personal favourite).

[Nerd-o-rama]

The samurai and his ninja retainer should get into wacky hijinks with a paladin and his rogue squire.

[Keneth]

@gkathellar: How exactly does espionage mesh with the samurai code? I've never heard of samurai spies while I was practicing ninjutsu.

While they might not care what the other is doing, being in a team often requires all members to take the same approach, so it's quite the roleplaying challenge unless the ninja decides to go all "noble" which frankly just makes it boring.

[danzibr]

Yeah skip CW samurai levels entirely unless you really want to jiten-ryu with 10 dexterity.
What's jiten-ryu? Google and my 7 semesters of Japanese tell me nothing.

As for the cultural aspect, i could shed some light on this as it was my subject in Ancient History in college, but i would not want to rant on this thread unless asked.
Oh please do. I am quite interested.

Also, I don't know how to multi-quote on different pages, but Person_Man, the two-man party thing doesn't have much to do with my wife and me. It was just a thought I had. We were just chatting about samurai.

[Keneth]

What's jiten-ryu? It's obviously the school that utilizes heavy dictionaries in a fight. :smallbiggrin:

[gkathellar]

@gkathellar: How exactly does espionage mesh with the samurai code? I've never heard of samurai spies while I was practicing ninjutsu.

Bushido was invented during the late Edo period* in an attempt to make Samurai take their role as "the warrior class" seriously when most were functionaries or bureaucrats. It took a while to catch on, and didn't last long in popularity. For most of Japanese history there was no "samurai code," much less a distinct samurai class — common soldiers could be elevated to nobility for honors until Toyotomi Hideyoshi created the rules which governed the social classes in the Edo period. For reference, Hideyoshi was the first man to unify Japan and a former commoner himself.

During the Edo period, only two of the Sengoku period's "ninja clans" (insofar as such a thing really existed during the Sengoku period) really got official political patronage: Iga (from which Hattori Hanzo, Tokugawa Ieyasu's most trusted retainer, bodyguard and standard-bearer hailed) and Koga. This meant other practicing espionage groups, especially those working for families that had fought Ieyasu, had to go underground. Many became criminals or common mercenaries.

Some even became Yamabushi — mountain-dwelling ascetics purported to have great fighting skills and mystical powers. The relationship between the "ninja" archetype and the Yamabushi is complicated, and it gets even more intricate when you account for the influence of kabuki theater on ninja in the public consciousness. Suffice it to say that the samurai were no more "honor-bound" than any nobleman or warrior in history, and that having vassals or allies trained in espionage and assassination was a military and administrative asset no sensible nobleman or warrior would give up.

*Honor codes have been around forever in all cultures of course, but the most important tenet of most warrior codes is, "serve your lord well."

[Keneth]

I see, that's quite an interesting perspective. I've often heard of samurai being little more than common mercenaries or even bullies at times but I've always thought that employing techniques usually associated with ninja (such as espionage) to be beneath them if nothing else. I guess they were more underhanded than I thought.

Still, this is D&D, stereotypes are intentionally accentuated. I was interested to hear what the two-man team was gonna do to break them. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

What's jiten-ryu? Google and my 7 semesters of Japanese tell me nothing.

I mixed up the word for the real swordfighting discipline using katana and wakizashi, niten-ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hy%C5%8Dh%C5%8D_Niten_Ichi-ry%C5%AB), with an entirely fictional style of giant robot swordfighting (jigen-ryu). This is what I get for not fact-checking myself before I post.

[Cwymbran-San]

Oh please do. I am quite interested.


As for starters, a samurai considers himself noble, but not in an aristocratic sense like we "westerners", especially us europeans, think about noble. No, a samurai thinks noble in the truest sense of the word, being something that has to be earned rather than inherited.
The common classes payed the samurai respect because they chose to act noble in the first place. The samurai himself was a servant to the emperor, so the common man was servant to the samurai.
Every person in ancient Japan considered himself a part of this divine order, being part of a collective rather than an individual being. Some of that lingers on up until today. About 5 years ago, a japanese employee of Kodak in Japan had a new manager, some guy straight out of Harvard. The new manager knew his profession but nothing about the japanese mindset, so the guy made 2 grave mistakes: first, seing the good work that man did, he praised and complimented him in front of his colleagues. Second, after a year or so, he wanted to reward that guy for working 60-70 hours a week by sending him to retirement early, at the age of 52.
Next morning, he found the man, kneeling in his office, with blade in hand, cutting open his belly and bleeding to death in front of the manager who only wanted to be kind to him. What had happened?

As to mistake One: Being elevated among your peers is considered shame, doing good work is reward enough, at least to someone with a Tao background. So, instead of motivating his employee, he shamed him to the bone. He might have swallowed that, especially with the insult coming from a gaijin, save for mistake Two:
Being sent away? After some 30 years of good work? For the honor of this man, this was no reard, it was punishment. He was denied the opportunity to contribute to the company, this was more than he could stomach. Disgrace of this enormity could only mean one thing: he had to restore his, and his families, honor by killing himself, and so he did.

Honor has different meanings in japanese as you will know from your studies, as does purity. A man cleaning clothes day in and day out is considered honorable, though his work is not in particular. A girl who sleeps with a man before her wedding without becoming pregnant and admitting openly to have slept with a man is considered pure.

And most important: when talking to these people, it is more important to hear what they do not say, rather than what they say. Remember the movie:"The Last Samurai"? Not a historical piece of work, but one scene catches the entire form of communication, as Katsumoto hands Cpt Algren his books and says:"When i took these, i was your enemy." By which he simply meant that they now where friends but could never say so.

I would offer you parts of my library for further study, but i don't know if you are particularly interested in german literature about japanese culture and their art of smithing.:smallbiggrin: