3.5 Touch Spell and Attack of Opportunity question

[Unusual Muse]

Okay, so here's the scenario:

The cleric is staring down a large dragon (10' reach with bite) who is 20' away. To avoid the Concentration check, he casts Shivering Touch (a melee touch spell), then moves 20' to within striking distance of the dragon, and then delivers the touch.

This goes down in two ways depending on where things are initiative-wise; if the cleric wins initiative, he gets in to deliver the touch spell before the dragon's turn and thus suffers no AoO... much rejoicing, etc. If the cleric is acting after the first round (i.e. the dragon is not flat-footed), the dragon would get a bite AoO on the cleric once he moves from 10' out to adjacent. If the op attack hits, does that discharge the touch spell? If so, since it's a natural weapon, does the dragon still suffer the effects of the shivering touch (assuming it beats his SR)?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

At first I thought this was going to be simple, but the rules are a little vague here. Essentially it comes down to the poor wording in holding the charge of a spell.
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.Technically we're touching lots of things all the time, including the ground, but let's ignore those minor quibbles and consider only major, rules-acknowledged touches (i.e. getting telekinetically bull rushed into a wall or ally would count, but feeling a light breeze wouldn't). If a dragon bites you, I would argue that yes, you are touching the dragon. This is especially considering that one can deliver a touch spell using a natural attack, which implies by the rules that the connection of a natural attack counts as a touch for the purposes of touch attacks. This means the spell would discharge on the dragon.

Note that if you wish to rule to the contrary, then the spell doesn't discharge. This is because for the spell to discharge the cleric has to touch something, and given the events as told that something has to be the dragon.

[Unusual Muse]

Okay, that makes sense... so, to clarify (or to further un-clarify, as the case may be), what if the op attack is coming from fighter with a guisarme instead of a dragon? Does that attack also discharge the touch spell? Would the fighter then suffer the effects of the Shivering Touch (since it's not a natural weapon touching the cleric)?

[Curmudgeon]

In D&D's combat model touching is not symmetric. That is, if you touch someone they're not considered to be touching you. Only touches initiated by the spellcaster can discharge the spell carried in their body.

Also, only valid targets for a spell can ever release a spell charge. You can spend all day touching the ground, weapons, your backpack, food, & c. but that won't discharge a spell which requires a creature for its target. If you hand someone a piece of fruit at lunch, though, touching their hand will deliver that spell charge. If that same person rudely grabs the fruit out of your hand, there's no spell discharge.

[Unusual Muse]

In D&D's combat model touching is not symmetric. That is, if you touch someone they're not considered to be touching you. Only touches initiated by the spellcaster can discharge the spell carried in their body.

Interesting; I've never heard that... so I can defend it to my group, where does that come from?


You can spend all day touching the ground, weapons, your backpack, food, & c. but that won't discharge a spell which requires a creature for its target.

Hmm... I guess I'm unclear on this point because the rules regarding touch spells (ref: SRD) that state that if you "touch anyone or anything" it will discharge the spell, right?

Thanks for your help!

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting; I've never heard that... so I can defend it to my group, where does that come from?
It comes from the game mechanic used for touch attack spells. Of course, that's only one of the two types of touch spells.

Willing target touch spells don't require an attack roll.
Touch attack spells discharge when you succeed on an attack roll.
If you're holding the charge on the first type of spell, contact that another character allows makes them a willing target. If they willingly initiate the contact, that also makes them a willing recipient for the spell charge. Also any unattended objects that you try to touch don't have any option to be unwilling. That's how you can accidentally discharge a spell.

A touch attack spell, though, requires an attack roll specifically to deliver the spell charge. If you're holding a spell charge (most attack spells; there are some exceptions) and someone bull rushes you: they're touching you, but that touch by them can't initiate your attack roll which is required to deliver the spell charge. So them touching you doesn't count as you touching them.

Hmm... I guess I'm unclear on this point because the rules regarding touch spells (ref: SRD) that state that if you "touch anyone or anything" it will discharge the spell, right?
Sure, but that doesn't override the standard rules for spells.
Aiming A Spell

You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
The Spell’s Result

Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails. If a spell only affects creatures, you can't ever discharge it on an object ─ intentionally or otherwise. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, and that thing or person is a valid target for the spell, the spell discharges.

[0nimaru]

Curmudgeon is correct with all the sourcing.

It's just a bad line of text in the SRD that appears to have been discouraging you from trying to hold a charge for long durations, but really just muddies the instinctual concept of how the charge goes off.


Also any unattended objects that you try to touch don't have any option to be unwilling. That's how you can accidentally discharge a spell.
Notably, your own gear is not unattended and does not discharge the spell against yourself (or your gloves, or pack, etc). Despite the spell stemming from you, you can be unwilling and keep it from hitting yourself.

Just mentioning that in case it's brought up.

[Unusual Muse]

Ahhh! I get it now. Thanks for breaking it all down, Curmudgeon! :smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

Ahhh! I get it now. Thanks for breaking it all down, Curmudgeon! :smallsmile:
You're welcome. Touch spell rules are muddied by having two spell mechanisms using the same name, and being in two places (the Magic and Combat chapters of the Player's Handbook). It's rather a mess.

[Alienist]

Once you have your head firmly wrapped around the ins and outs of touch spells in combat, I invite you to wander over to Chill Touch... that'll bake your noodle all over again. :smallbiggrin:

[Volos]

I'm curious, how was this cleric supposed to both cast a spell and make a move action in the surprise round? :smallconfused: That was one of the scenarios you had described.

[Firest Kathon]

I'm curious, how was this cleric supposed to both cast a spell and make a move action in the surprise round? :smallconfused: That was one of the scenarios you had described.

I believe the OP meant that the spell is cast in the surprise round, then in the regular initiative the cleric moves in and casts.

Case 1:
Cleric: Casts Spell, wins initiative
Cleric: Moves in, touches dragon, who is still flat-footed
Dragon: Eats cleric, rejoices

Case 2:
Cleric: Casts Spell, loses initiative
Dragon: Does something which does not kill the cleric, e.g. laughs about the fool who challeges it, but is no longer flat-footed
Cleric: Moves in, recieves AoO
Dragon: Eats cleric, rejoices

[Unusual Muse]

Case 1:
Cleric: Casts Spell, wins initiative
Cleric: Moves in, touches dragon, who is still flat-footed
Dragon: Has its Dex reduced to 0, is paralyzed
Cleric: Spends following rounds coup de grace-ing dragon until it's dead, rejoices

Case 2 may (or may not) stand, but I fixed Case 1 for ya. :smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

It should be like this: The Cleric wins initiative, casts Shivering Touch as a standard action, Moves close, tumbling so that the Large or bigger dragon doesn't threaten when he moves out of a square the dragon threatens, uses a swift action to activate his belt of battle with two charges, and then makes a Touch Attack as a Standard Action...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Um, guys...


Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.You can cast, move and touch as a standard + move.

[Unusual Muse]

Um, guys...

You can cast, move and touch as a standard + move.

Yes, but during the surprise round you can only take a standard action.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yes, but during the surprise round you can only take a standard action.Hm, I suppose I got confused since the original scenario lacked a surprise round.

[Gavinfoxx]

Um, guys...

You can cast, move and touch as a standard + move.

Wait, really? So a wizard out of range could cast shivering touch, move, and then attack, with JUST standard and move?? Are you sure??

[tyckspoon]

Wait, really? So a wizard out of range could cast shivering touch, move, and then attack, with JUST standard and move?? Are you sure??


You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.

Yes. Explicitly so. Casting a touch spell gives you an extra action, for that round only, that may be used to attempt to deliver the spell. Like most actions, you can use it in any order with your other actions- it's not actually tied to the same action as casting the spell.

[Unusual Muse]

Wait, really? So a wizard out of range could cast shivering touch, move, and then attack, with JUST standard and move?? Are you sure??

To be clear, you're not technically casting, moving, and attacking (which would be a standard action, a move action, and another standard action); you're casting, moving, then completing the casting by touching the opponent with the melee touch attack (which the rules allow you to do with touch spells). Think of it as if you were moving, then casting, then rolling your to-hit roll for your touch spell; still just 1 move action and 1 standard action (the casting+melee to-hit roll). It just happens that the rules let you split that up into casting, then moving, then delivering the touch.

[The Random NPC]

Its kind of like casters get Shot on the Run for free. Only instead of being able to shoot in the middle of a move action, they can use a move action in the middle of shooting.

[Ravens_cry]

Once you have your head firmly wrapped around the ins and outs of touch spells in combat, I invite you to wander over to Chill Touch... that'll bake your noodle all over again. :smallbiggrin:
Damn it, now I am going to read all your posts as the Oracle. Oh, I am sure the phrase is older than that, but it's the first time I heard it.

[Curmudgeon]

To be clear, you're not technically casting, moving, and attacking (which would be a standard action, a move action, and another standard action); you're casting, moving, then completing the casting by touching the opponent with the melee touch attack (which the rules allow you to do with touch spells). No, that's exactly wrong; tyckspoon got it right. You're not getting another standard action; you're only getting an opportunity to make a single attack, restricted to one which can deliver the spell charge if you successfully hit the target.

You've fallen into the confusion created by the book labeling two different types of spells as "touch spells". Only willing target touch spells allow touching as part of the casting. Touch attack spells do not continue the casting through the attack.

Think through this: if you were still casting the spell until the attack was resolved, while you moved to deliver the spell charge you would provoke AoOs for the casting. And if you got hit on the AoO you provoked for spellcasting, you could lose that spell retroactively because you haven't finished casting it, even though you moved after the end of the standard action required for the spellcasting. Of course, that doesn't happen.

[Alienist]

Damn it, now I am going to read all your posts as the Oracle. Oh, I am sure the phrase is older than that, but it's the first time I heard it.

Don't worry, by the time this thread is over you'll have forgotten all about it.