Crusader help

[Adindra]

Hey playground im taking my first attempt into the tome of battle to create a crusader (my party really really needs the melee and tank) but ive hit a block in how to build it.

ive looked at all the guides and i thought i found a build that worked but when looking it over again it doesnt at all and im just stumped on what to do

the advice im looking for in particular would be

1. race choice (i was going to play a dragonborn darfellan but then i realized i need dex so i can use combat reflexs and thicket of blades)
2. general build orders (i was thinking of crusader 20 then i was going to switch for crusader 14 warblade 6 but im at a loss other than i want crusader)
3. any other advice at all be it stances maneuvers its all new to me so im floundering a bit :smallfrown:

im also using this trial run with tob to show my dm that it isnt completely broken and to actually see for myself before i make any judgement so im not gonna use the ruby knight windicator build that ive seen however im willing to try white raven tactics :smallsmile:

edit: forgot to mention all books are open other than book of exalted deeds (i can still use things i just have to get dm approval first) and dragon is open as well as long as i dont make a completely broken character

[Snowbluff]

Crusader 20 should be fine, but I prefer some Cleric then grabbing Some Ruby Knight Vindicator. You said no to that, so here's some other options.

If you want to Warblade and Crusader at the same time, go 4-7 lvls Warblade, 4-7 lvls Crusader, then 9-10 lvls in Eternal Blade. Eternal Blade is an amazing class, but you have to be an elf. Take Power Attack, use the Avalanche of Blades/Time Stands Still and the best healing strike early with the EB's class features.If I recall correctly, Snow Elf is the best fit for this. This build seems a bit overkill to me.

1-10 Take Crusader and WB (4 of one, 6 of the other is best if you want both to have a 9th level mave and you don't care about the EB capstone. otherw),

Take Power Attack, Weapon Focus (doesn't matter what weapon, WB lets you change it), Use the WB feat for Combat Reflexes (I heard you wanted it :smallwink:), and another feat of your choice (make it count).

Then take 9 to 10 in Eternal Blade. Map all/most of the "Maves Readied" to Crusader to increase how often you refresh Crusader Maves (it also increases Maves Granted if you get it from a PrC). Spread out the Maves known to WB and Crusader, I'd suggest getting Avalanche of Blades to WB. If you don't get all 10 in EB, use your last level for a Ninth in the Class you only have 4 levels in.

I'd suggest taking a feat for Pouncing Charge. You'll need WB Ilvl 9 at least. Pouncing is awesome. Extra Granted Maneuver is a great feat for a fledgeling crusader. Leap Attack and the like fit nicely here, and so will Exotic Weapon (Spike Chain), tripping, etc.


Should look something like this:
1:WB1 (Weapon Focus)
2:WB2
3:WB3(Power Attack)
4:Cr1
5:WB4
6:WB5 (Combat Reflexes from WB feat)
7:Cr2
8:WB6
9:Cr3
10:Cr4
11:EB1
12:EB2 (Use a feat for Pouncing Charge here)
13:EB3
14:EB4
15:EB5
16:EB6
17:EB7
18:EB8
19:EB9 (Grab a Times Stands Still for WB)
20:Cr5 (Take Strike of Righteous Vitality)



Crusaders have the unique capability of being the only effective in-combat healers. Martial Spirit and Healing Strikes are your friends. If you go this route, I suggest Stone Power for an extra 10 temporary HP/round. Keep you in mind you have many ways of not dying, from Immortal Fortitude to Steely Resolve.

Keep in mind have more Maves Granted than Maves Known makes you an Idiot Crusader. 1 level in WB to take all Stone Dragon Maves, then use Extra Granted Maves, increased Granted Maves with PrC Extra Maves Readied. It's easy, but incredibly broken.

Man, I know so much off the top of my head I should write a handbook...

Keep in mind Crusader/20 would be best for trying not to be overpowered.

[Adindra]

Thank you! I had all but given up on getting a reply but that sounds amazing!

i like to keep a big notebook of builds so im gonna have to write out all the stuff thank you it's a gigantic help my party really needs the melee!

[Snowbluff]

Thank you! I had all but given up on getting a reply but that sounds amazing!

i like to keep a big notebook of builds so im gonna have to write out all the stuff thank you it's a gigantic help my party really needs the melee!

If I can read "really needs the melee" as "this party is full of casters", you should have no problem looking balanced. :P

Your welcome dude!:smallsmile:

EDIT: If you are going support, some levels in Bard and Song of the White Raven, along with some of the usual Bardic Music optimization would be cool.

Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), Words of Creation (BOeD), Song of the Heart (Ebberon)and a Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends (+5 to Bard Level for Inspire) and a castong of Inspirational Boost from your Bard levels is a great way of playing support.

Qualifies you for JPM, Crusaders Levels Stack with Bard for Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration, you learn some Cure spells. 8, 14, 20 Bard+Crusader levels are the sweet spots for Inspire Courage. Bard6/Crusader9/JPM5 seems like a good option. Gives a 4th level Spell and some 3rds, 20 level of Inspire Courage with the Vest of Legends, and a Ninth level Maneuver!

It's rather MAD and feat heavy though, needing 15int/cha for Words of Creation, Cha for casting, and the usual Str and Con. IMO, Words of Creation >>> Song of the Heart, no question's asked, and Snowflake Wardance is largely optional.

[Adindra]

yeah literally the entire party are casters ranging from bard and warmage to cleric and psion so we needed the person in front

[Snowbluff]

yeah literally the entire party are casters ranging from bard and warmage to cleric and psion so we needed the person in front

In that case, they would not benefit much from another Bard. :smalltongue:

[Adindra]

any suggestions on a non spiked chain weapon? i'd hate to pull that out on my dm as well :( my original build i was going trident spiked heavy steel shield but im thinking i should probably grab a two hander or something like that

[Greenish]

Guisarme if going for tripping, lance if going mounted, ranseur if fighting medium-or-smaller humanoids at low levels, glaive if none of the above.

[Snowbluff]

any suggestions on a non spiked chain weapon? i'd hate to pull that out on my dm as well :( my original build i was going trident spiked heavy steel shield but im thinking i should probably grab a two hander or something like that

I like falchions if you don't want to be focused on tripping. 2 less damage than great sword, but the extra crit range more than makes up for it!

[Adindra]

Guisarme if going for tripping, lance if going mounted, ranseur if fighting medium-or-smaller humanoids at low levels, glaive if none of the above.

Thank you very much Greenish Glaive it is then!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thank you very much Greenish Glaive it is then!

With spiked gauntlet.

[navar100]

Human - you can never have enough feats and skill points. :smallsmile:

Extra Granted Maneuver feat is a big help.

If your build is not dedicated feat intensive, I recommend Vital Recovery. You refresh without taking an action, so you can use the feat as part of that not taking an action. At low levels it is like a free potion of Cure Light Wounds once per encounter. At mid levels it becomes like a Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds. Use it when your healing strikes just didn't do enough for you or you let a party member benefit but you really need that one more round of not being close to 0 hit points.

Your stance progression sucks. You can't get a 3rd level stance until 8th level, a 5th or 6th level stance until 14, and no 8th level stance at all, unless you spend feats for Martial Stance.

Solution 1: Suck it up and spend the feat or not.

Solution 2: Ask DM for house rule allowing you to change a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

Solution 3: Ask DM for a house rule delaying stance progression by a level. Still need to spend a feat for 3rd and 6th level stances.

Solution 4: Multiclass two levels before reaching Crusader 8. Still need to spend a feat for 3rd level and 6th level stances.

Take White Raven Tactics as a maneuver. Just do.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright, DO NOT USE WRT ON YOURSELF. It works by RAW, but it clearly is not RAI (or at least RAMS), and you said you want to prove ToB is NOT overpowered.

[Little Brother]

Why not build an Idiot Crusader? Most fun build I have ever played.

[Kenneth]

I cannot remember where I saw this particular build but it went Crusader 1/Knight 4 then crusader 15. for a good replication of the MMO style tanks where you tant then hurt things.

[Snowbluff]

Why not build an Idiot Crusader? Most fun build I have ever played.

He's trying not to appear overpowered, and I already told him how to do it and how bad it would look. :smalltongue: