How to munchkin a troll character??

[Petertje Segers]

heey everybody,

I my new campain.. I got permision from the DM to play a Troll as a character (yaaay).. I have to use the savage species rules.. no props.. But my fellow players are expirienced optimizers.. and I don't want to play the cool but useless dude..

So to make a long story short.. how can I tweak/optimise this nice little troll??

Any advice would be greatly apprectiated:smallbiggrin:

[molten_dragon]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'no props'. That being said, trolls are large, so they qualify for that part of War Hulk and Hulking Hurler. Other than that you just need to meet feat prereqs and the BAB +5 prereq. I'd do something like Troll 11/Fighter 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 5. That will let you meet all your prereqs as soon as possible. Then just throw heavy things at people for a ton of damage. Assuming you start with a base 16 STR you should be able to have a 38 by level 20 (with no magical assistance). With overburdened heave that will let you throw stuff weighing up to 6400 pounds, which translates to 35d6 damage. With magic it will be considerably higher.

If the DM will allow you to, you might be better off stopping the troll class at level 5 (when you become large). That would let you do Troll 5/Fighter 3/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 9 which would put your base strength at 42 by level 20.

In all honesty though, if the rest of the party is well optimized you're probably still going to fall behind. Trolls simply have too high of a LA and Giant HD aren't all that great. Could you do LA buyoff?

[Petertje Segers]

mm.. thnx for the reply..

.. with no props.. I meant I did not have propblems with the savage species..

But your build Idea sounds nice.. will look it up.. Dunno if my DM will allow me to take only 5 racial HD.. but I can defenitly ask..

[The Glyphstone]

If you want to break it, just find a way to get Acid and Fire immunity.

[Petertje Segers]

If you want to break it, just find a way to get Acid and Fire immunity.

yeah.. that would be awesome.. but dunno how to do that both.. if i go barb then i can take blazing berserker.. but for the acid.. I do not know..

[Big Fau]

Fire immunity can be obtained through a feat in Sandstorm (requires Rage). Acid immunity is harder to get.

[Acanous]

half black dragon.

[Eisenfavl]

You've got savage species, so you can invest a LA in getting the earth/acid subtype to cover that base.
Blazing berserker instead of fire subtype outright makes it 'largely unstoppable' instead of retarded levels, but if you are contending with a twice betrayer or the like in your party, you can grab it for fire as well.

[Petertje Segers]

half black dragon.

mm.. that sounds okeey.. but that would mean to take an template in the beginning.. do not know if my DM will like the idea of a half-black dragon troll running through his campain..

[Petertje Segers]

You've got savage species, so you can invest a LA in getting the earth/acid subtype to cover that base.
Blazing berserker instead of fire subtype outright makes it 'largely unstoppable' instead of retarded levels, but if you are contending with a twice betrayer or the like in your party, you can grab it for fire as well.

mm.. where can I find this in the savage species?? sounds like good fun..

[Petertje Segers]

found it :smallbiggrin:

Ritual of the Elements
This ritual imbues a character with an elemental (air, earth, fire, water) or energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire) subtype or modifier.
The character becomes immune to the appropriate energy type or element, and takes double damage from its opposing energy or element unless a saving throw
for half damage is allowed. The character is subject to all spells that affect that element or energy type.
Associated Opposed
Element Energy Energy
Air Electricity Acid
Earth Acid Electricity
Fire Fire Cold
Water Cold Fire
This ritual requires a 9th-level cleric who has the appropriate element or energy type as one of his domains.
Ritual Cost: This ritual costs the subject 36,000 gold pieces
and 1,440 XP.
Level Adjustment: +1.

[Helldog]

mm.. that sounds okeey.. but that would mean to take an template in the beginning.. do not know if my DM will like the idea of a half-black dragon troll running through his campain..
If he's okay with a troll then he shouldn't have a problem with a half-dragon troll.

[HunterOfJello]

If the DM will allow you to use LA Buyoff from Unearthed Arcana while also allowing you to stop the number of racial levels you take from the Troll racial class progression, then being a Troll would be worth it. If you can only stop the # of racial levels, then it can still be worth it but will be a bit harder. If you can't use either option, then I would recommend finding a different way to accomplish what you're after.


The Primordial Giant template could actually apply to the Troll if you wanted to. It's in Secrets of Xen'drik.

Half-Minotaur template is a popular way to become large and gain a strength bonus with a much smaller LA penalty.

[Petertje Segers]

The Primordial Giant template could actually apply to the Troll if you wanted to. It's in Secrets of Xen'drik.

well I search this out.. and I really like it.. it cancels the mental penalties of the troll.. and gives them nice new features..

sadly this also leaves the troll with only -2 con en - 2 wis at level 1 if I follow the savage species.. but then again this wil be fixed when I ltake troll levels, or I can just take the normal giant HD, wich become very good with the Primordial giant template..

[Demonic_Spoon]

Do ritual of the Elements to become immune to acid, and get that mantle of something spell from Sandstorm cast on you to be immune to fire. Take a few levels of that class from cityscape that makes you immune to nonlethal damage, or become a necropolitan, enjoy your straight up immunity to most damage. You should invest in protection from disintegrate and the like, get a mind blank from somewhere etc.

[Helldog]

BTW. Could you do something with the "munchkin" in the title? You aren't really munchkining, you just ask for optimization help. Big difference, and "munchkin" is a slightly insulting word.

[Seerow]

BTW. Could you do something with the "munchkin" in the title? You aren't really munchkining, you just ask for optimization help. Big difference, and "munchkin" is a slightly insulting word.

When you cross into looking for fire and acid immunity on said troll, I think the term munchkin is entirely appropriate to be perfectly honest.

[NiteCyper]

I assume you're a Large creature. It's easier for you to benefit from the symbiotic creature template in Savage Species (page 131). Small creatures can be your...partner. Secondly, you're ready to take advantage of the Knockback feat in Races of Stone (page 142) combined with the Fighter Dungeoncrasher variant in Dungeonscape (page 10). If these suggestions have already been made, consider my suggestions a seconding. I searched the thread for the terms "symbiotic" and "Knockback".

[Cieyrin]

Besides covering making you immune to damage via immunity to acid, fire and nonlethal, what exactly are you looking for in terms of optimization? What's the rest of the party? LA Buyoff isn't viable without shenanigans in using a Savage Progression and buying off as you pick up LA, which would munchkin you much further along, which may lead to pelting with books.

If you're more for getting fun feats, I'd look at Detach, Pain Mastery, Involuntary Rage and Thunderclap. Especially combined with Hulking Hurler, you could Detach the majority of your body and throw it at your enemies. Take a level of Kensai or get a Necklace of Natural Attacks with Returning so you can make your lost part Return to you so you can immediately reattach and then rip somebody asunder. Fling Enemy, Knockback, Thayan Gladiator, Black Blood Cultist are other things to consider.

[Urpriest]

If the DM will allow you to use LA Buyoff from Unearthed Arcana while also allowing you to stop the number of racial levels you take from the Troll racial class progression, then being a Troll would be worth it. If you can only stop the # of racial levels, then it can still be worth it but will be a bit harder. If you can't use either option, then I would recommend finding a different way to accomplish what you're after.


LA Buyoff won't help much, the LA is too large. You need class levels to buy off LA, RHD don't help.

For the OP: just in case, you might want to read the handbook in my sig. It's not so much about how to play a monster well as it is about the rules for playing monsters. But newer players tend to make a lot of mistakes with this, so if you're not sure you know how everything works, better to read the guide.

[SleepyShadow]

A friend of mine built a Troll Master Thrower/Hulking Hurler using a feat in Savage Species that allowed him to throw parts of his body for natural attack damage. He was called Pungo the Penetrater :smallcool:

As for fire and acid immunity, you really only need about resist 20 in most cases. I believe the DMG has rings for that.

[HunterOfJello]

LA Buyoff won't help much, the LA is too large. You need class levels to buy off LA, RHD don't help.

Oooh. I never noticed that. Thank you for pointing that out.

Having 3 RHD and only +2 LA would be much better than the full rhd and la progression that a troll normally has though. If LA buyoff was there, he could start buying off LA once he gets 3 class levels which wouldn't be great, but wouldn't be horrific.

[Cieyrin]

A friend of mine built a Troll Master Thrower/Hulking Hurler using a feat in Savage Species that allowed him to throw parts of his body for natural attack damage. He was called Pungo the Penetrater :smallcool:

As for fire and acid immunity, you really only need about resist 20 in most cases. I believe the DMG has rings for that.

Detach, like I mentioned earlier. It's lulzy. :smallwink:


Oooh. I never noticed that. Thank you for pointing that out.

Having 3 RHD and only +2 LA would be much better than the full rhd and la progression that a troll normally has though. If LA buyoff was there, he could start buying off LA once he gets 3 class levels which wouldn't be great, but wouldn't be horrific.

You'd need 6 class levels before you could buyoff your first level in that instance, since it's 3xcurrent LA. With that distribution, you could buyoff your first with at ECL 11 and the second at ECL 13.

[Red_Dog]

So a Troll ha?

While Monster PCs are not liked by WotC... Trolls get a short end of the stick if way to often.

I guess if you can negotiate some of the level adjustment. May be playing a younger Troll with not fully developed Regeneration? (trading say +3LA for ability to always take normal damage but still Fast Heal 5?) I mean Combined with incredibly heavy Mental penalties the options are thin...
[assume troll 11 for all]
*18th level feat left open*
==========================>
6 Fighter(Dungeon Crusher)/anything(Warhulk?)
Feats: Shock Trooper Chain[3], Knock Back, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Cometary Collision[see gear] or Leap Attack
Alternative Feats: Swap, Endurance/Determination/Collision for Cleave+Focus[Great Club]+Three mountains
Gear: Steadfast Boots [from MiC] if allowed to be used with Cometary Collision, Any large piece of metal you can find that you can hold in two hands, Iron golem's leg will do
==========================>
6 Fighter(Dungeon Crusher)/1 Exotic Weapon Master/Anything(again)
Feats: Shock Trooper Chain[3], Knock Back, Exotic Weapon[Tiger Skull Club maybe?]/Focus with said weapon, Cometary Collision or Leap Attack
Same dance, different remix. One handed exotic weapon for squeezing as much Str bonus you can from Uncanny Blow. Several supplement books have some one handed exotic weapons to choose from
==========================>
Controversial 3.0 Material ahead!
1 Barbarian(Lion Pounce)/1 Soul Eater/1 Fighter/Anything
Feats: Alertness, Focus[Claws], Shock Trooper Chain[3], MultiAttack, Improved Energy Drain/Life Drain [from Libris Mortis]
Since BoVD have not been updated, and you are using Savage Species, it seems that Soul Eater is a Fair Game. This while not focuses on energy Drain, sure as hell counts on it to help the over all situation. Landing at least 3 out of 2 attacks gives either bonuses on attacks or Life. I would choose bonuses as Charisma penalties won't help the life drain.
==========================>
First is Classic Cannon Ball. Second is small permutation of first, and third Has a potent method of attack besides dmg... Also the more he drains the better he fights. Rules on Stacking are controversial, in my game I ruled so that stacks with in limits of single victim, new victim overlaps and if new victim lost more HDs, that bonus applies instead... That is definitely not a RAW ruling... but you know, seemed sensible ^^

Then there can be permutations & combinations of same old Same old. Your Possible Frenzied Berserker, Normal Barbarian, Hurler, Warhulk and etc. All good choices really ^^ Just max your STR, and charge in shouting obscenities in language the enemies can't understand to score circumstantial role-playing bonus ^^

P.S. As an extra option, consider Crystalline Troll from MMIII p.179! If DM allows him, its 10HD & +5LA, but only Sonic damage can kill you. And you still have 5 levels left. Granted its deeper penalties too LA/RacialHD wise, but his ability gains are substantial. +12Str/Con and lessened mental penalties is a good thing. His fluff is a bit easier on "I thog, I smash". Though no tea drinking, Arcane Monthly reading. But you know, something better than "find a shiny in that guy guts!" ^_^ Just jesting ^^. Also, since you have regeneration that's one of rather good ways to Optimize it IMO ^^

[Petertje Segers]

heey guys.. sorry for the late reaction..

But thnx a lot.. I will take al your suggestions in to consideration..

I think I can make some nice little über-troll now..

Greetz and many thanx,
Peter

[Venser]

Ignore the troll and take half-troll template and apply it to goliath.
That is my current character, half-troll goliath lvl 3 with 26 str and 24 con, fast healing 5, huge greataxe which occasionaly becomes a gargantuan weapon.

[Petertje Segers]

Ignore the troll and take half-troll template and apply it to goliath.
That is my current character, half-troll goliath lvl 3 with 26 str and 24 con, fast healing 5, huge greataxe which occasionaly becomes a gargantuan weapon.

mmmm.. a Primordal Half-troll.. would really make a intresting character.. double inherited template at first level.. mm.. that will need some good chatter with my DM to pull that of.. but I like the idea...

[Mystify]

I would like to point out the rule on regeneration:

"Regeneration

Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability."
So necropolitan doesn't work, as it would knock out your regeneration.
However, technically speaking, other methods that make you immune to nonlethal while leaving your con intact would make you immune to the damage. Technically. Though if your DM doesn't slap you for that, he is doing something wrong.
Another option instead of becoming outright immune to the damage is frenzied berserker. Death rage is even more powerful on a troll, since you get to stand up and be unkillable while raging, then when you drop out of rage, instead of exploding into a red mist with -1000hp, you just fall very and regenerate for a while. Also, troll con means your frenzy will last for a very long time.

You should also note that disintegrate won't kill a troll. Disintegrate only turns something to dust if they are reduced to 0 hp. Trolls don't take hp damage, they gain nonlethal damage, so the 100hp troll with 100 nonlethal damage does not turn to dust when hit with disintegrate.

[Rubik]

Cheating is easy. Just don't follow the rules.

[Runestar]

I can give the troll fire and acid immunity and he would still be woefully underpowered as a PC.

Thanks to his +5LA, he will likely have quite few hp for his ECL (even with his high con). Even if he can't be killed, he will probably be spending most of an encounter unconscious due to large amounts of subdual damage taken. That is, if his crap will save doesn't cause him to be disabled by spells like deep slumber (which still work at up to ECL15), slow or charm monster.

When you do the math, his str bonuses barely makes up for the lost bab anyways, so his attack rating is still inferior to what any decently built fighter or barb's str would be. :smallfrown:

My advice, for the same ECL, go for the bladerager troll in MM5. Much better bonuses overall, including pounce and permanent mindblank! :smallcool:

[Necroticplague]

Step 1:Have a background that ends with you getting attacked by vampires, so you have a convenient reason to not have those pesky RHD.
Step 2: Add gheden, half clay colem, and half-red dragon.
Step 3:Focus on pumping up your saves, and invest all your wbl and feats (including worshiping an elder and taking the frail flaw and quick trait) into buying immunities.
Step4:Happily walk through most things ignoring things that others consider suicide.

You see, step 2 makes you immune to HP damage, so you can happily take advantage of everything that would normally reduce your hp pool , so all that's left is SODs. Since nothing deals lethal damage to you, even SOLs don't work because you can't be coup de graced. a binder dip for neberius would do wonders so you are less likely to suffer statdeath, and dump CHA, and INT. Some DM's might smack you for Step 1, so try seeing if you can take the LA from step 2 from your RHD.

[Mystify]

I can give the troll fire and acid immunity and he would still be woefully underpowered as a PC.

Thanks to his +5LA, he will likely have quite few hp for his ECL (even with his high con). Even if he can't be killed, he will probably be spending most of an encounter unconscious due to large amounts of subdual damage taken. That is, if his crap will save doesn't cause him to be disabled by spells like deep slumber (which still work at up to ECL15), slow or charm monster.

When you do the math, his str bonuses barely makes up for the lost bab anyways, so his attack rating is still inferior to what any decently built fighter or barb's str would be. :smallfrown:

My advice, for the same ECL, go for the bladerager troll in MM5. Much better bonuses overall, including pounce and permanent mindblank! :smallcool:
Hence the frenzied beserker. You will stay up, unless they are casting spells which would neutralize a fighter anyways.

You can also completely ignore AC 100%, as getting hit by things is irrelevant, and spend all that money on anything else. Particularly, items that help your other defenses/immunities. Your single strikes are stonger due to the extra strength, but your lower BaB means weaker full rounds. So don't worry about full rounding, worry about single strikes. Warhulk works wonderfully with that philosophy. Not having AC also makes ubercharger builds more effective, as the AC penalty for shocktrooper is meaningless, and you are already taking frenzied beserker for the deathless frenzy, though this does not combo as well with war hulk. Similarly, since you are focused on single strikes, the slightly lower accuracy is not a big deal, as your first attacks are likely to be hitting anyways.

As for raw HP, if it matters, a 20th level barbarian with a hefty +13 con has bout 390 hp. 20th level troll barbarian ends up with 391.5 hp on average. With regeneration on top. They aren't exactly frail.
At 11th level, when they have the full brunt of their LA, assuming no magic items, a barbarian has about 148 hp. The troll likely has 98. Assuming they get 2 rounds of standing in, effectively 108. Weaker, yeah, but they are more likely to stand up afterwards, or even mid-battle, whilst a barbarian may just stay dead.

Ultimately, the shortcoming of such a build will be mostly shared by all fighter/barbarian builds.

Though the bladerager troll does seem to be a strictly superior choice.

[Red_Dog]

The only issue with bladerager is well... horrid fluff. You will need an additional NPC "handler"... because blade ragers are=>warmachines. Because of those "augmentations" they suffer, they are not really capable of being characters...

Unless serious DM help is given=> You are a pet for one of the characters at best. If it sounds cool, by all means I am not trying to bring you down ^^(not being sarcastic). But if you want personality beyond "make the agony stop!", a regular troll seems like a college graduate in comparison... Sry = \