"Wait, what?" - Improper Placement of Particular Powers

[legomaster00156]

So, when I was looking through the spell list again, I came across a rather distressing feature: the Resurrection line is not necromancy. It is Conjuration. I flipped. A spell line that literally brings the dead back to life should most definitely be in the school that manipulates life and death energies.
But then, another idea occured to me. What other spells are in unfitting schools? Go ahead, Playground, scout out your books.

[fryplink]

So, when I was looking through the spell list again, I came across a rather distressing feature: the Resurrection line is not necromancy. It is Conjuration. I flipped. A spell line that literally brings the dead back to life should most definitely be in the school that manipulates life and death energies.
But then, another idea occured to me. What other spells are in unfitting schools? Go ahead, Playground, scout out your books.

I think raise dead fits because you are calling the soul from the beyond. I'm surprised that CLW is conj as well though. In 3.0 it was necromancy IIRC, as was raise dead

[Venger]

the teleport line in 3.5 is transmutation. huh?

[Jeraa]

I think raise dead fits because you are calling the soul from the beyond. I'm surprised that CLW is conj as well though. In 3.0 it was necromancy IIRC, as was raise dead

Nope. They were conjuration in 3.0 as well.

Fluff-wise, it makes some sense if the resurrection-type spells summon your soul from the after life, while cure spells actually bring part of the positive energy plane that you physically apply to the wound.


the teleport line in 3.5 is transmutation. huh?

No they aren't. They are Conjuration (teleportation).

[fryplink]

the teleport line in 3.5 is transmutation. huh?

In 3.5 it is Conj, in 3.0 it's transmutation. It's why Varsuuvius can't cast teleport, actually the change of school of that very spell was the subject of a joke.

[chadmeister]

Well there's the whole Conjuration(Healing) subschool. Seems more like a Transmutation subschool. You change someone from wounded into healed.

Prismatic Wall is Abjuration, while other "energy" walls (Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice) are Evocation, as is Prismatic Spray.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Almost all teleport-like spells are in Conjuration... so I don't get what you are talking about.

[Jeraa]

Well there's the whole Conjuration(Healing) subschool. Seems more like a Transmutation subschool. You change someone from wounded into healed.


Well, Fireball changes you from uninjured to burned. So is it a Transmutation spell too?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Well, Fireball changes you from uninjured to burned. So is it a Transmutation spell too?

The difference here is in what the magic does. Fireball summons a ball of fire to damage you, while healing spells, well, directly heal you. Unless you subscribe to the theory that healing spells summon positive energy that then heals you.

[jaybird]

Mage Armor in Transmutation Conjuration, when everything about the spell screams Abjuration.

Hmm, should we put together a list of spells that thematically suit other schools better? Could start from Core...

EDIT: derp.

[Steward]

It does kind of fit under the game's definition of 'Conjuration (Healing'):


Healing

Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.

Antipathy is an Enchantment spell that could probably be refluffed into an Abjuration spell, but I honestly can see why it is in the former school.

[Lans]

Mage Armor in Transmutation, when everything about the spell screams Abjuration.

Hmm, should we put together a list of spells that thematically suit other schools better? Could start from Core...

Evocation actually for the same reason wall of force is in the school

[onemorelurker]

Nope. They were conjuration in 3.0 as well.

Fluff-wise, it makes some sense if the resurrection-type spells summon your soul from the after life, while cure spells actually bring part of the positive energy plane that you physically apply to the wound.



Then why is the Inflict line necromancy? Either both healing and negative energy work by drawing energy from their respective planes (conjuration) or both lines work by manipulating life/death energy (necromancy). I'm not saying that conjuration is definitely the wrong place for them--I like to put them in necromancy mostly because it needs the extra love more than conjuration does--but both lines should be the same school.

Necromancy, rather than being about life and death, seems like a catch-all school for evilish spells. See also fear spells (Cause Fear, Scare, etc.), which are necromancy but should probably be enchantments.

[Tenno Seremel]

Fluff-wise, it makes some sense if the resurrection-type spells summon your soul from the after life

Summoning soul from afterlife should not resurrect it. You summoned it, good. But it has no body whatsoever.

[Cespenar]

To summarize, the system doesn't make any sense. Best not to dwell on it.

[jaybird]

Evocation actually for the same reason wall of force is in the school

Yeah, but Abjurant Champion really should benefit from that spell.

[onemorelurker]

To summarize, the system doesn't make any sense. Best not to dwell on it.

Aw, what fun would that be? :smalltongue:

[chadmeister]

Unless you subscribe to the theory that healing spells summon positive energy that then heals you.

And in that case summoning energy is generally Evocation.

[Douglas]

Then why is the Inflict line necromancy? Either both healing and negative energy work by drawing energy from their respective planes (conjuration) or both lines work by manipulating life/death energy (necromancy). I'm not saying that conjuration is definitely the wrong place for them--I like to put them in necromancy mostly because it needs the extra love more than conjuration does--but both lines should be the same school.

Necromancy, rather than being about life and death, seems like a catch-all school for evilish spells. See also fear spells (Cause Fear, Scare, etc.), which are necromancy but should probably be enchantments.
The Inflict line is necromancy because that's the proper place to put it.

The Cure line is conjuration because necromancy is evil and healing can't go in the evil school.:smallsigh:

Never mind that there are plenty of non-evil necromancy spells and plenty of evil non-necromancy spells, some designers just got it stuck in their heads that necromancy as a whole is evil because of its association with the undead.

[tyckspoon]

Necromancy, rather than being about life and death, seems like a catch-all school for evilish spells. See also fear spells (Cause Fear, Scare, etc.), which are necromancy but should probably be enchantments.

Basically, yes. Necromancy was not assigned spells based on the school descriptions; it was assigned spells because they're spooooooky and/or feel like something an Evil Necromancer (with the skull ring!) would do. Healing clearly doesn't fit with that, so they had to make up Conjuration (Healing).. nevermind that the same logic means that the Inflict spells and things like Enervation clearly should be Conjuration (Harming).

[Siosilvar]

The Inflict line is necromancy because that's the proper place to put it.

The Cure line is conjuration because necromancy is evil and healing can't go in the evil school.:smallsigh:

Never mind that there are plenty of non-evil necromancy spells and plenty of evil non-necromancy spells, some designers just got it stuck in their heads that necromancy as a whole is evil because of its association with the undead.

All this despite the fact that the Cure line was Necromancy from when D&D gained spell schools until 3rd edition came out.

Fear is one spell in Necromancy that "it's evil" is the only justification for. How is that not Enchantment? (EDIT: It was Illusion in 1e, just like Phantasmal Killer then and now.)

...The entire orb line except for the orb of acid spells is misplaced. The only reason they exist and are in Conjuration is so that blasters can shoot into an antimagic field, as far as I can tell. All of them (especially Force) need to be in Evocation.

[onemorelurker]

orb[/I] line except for the orb of acid spells is misplaced. The only reason they exist and are in Conjuration is so that blasters can shoot into an antimagic field, as far as I can tell. All of them (especially Force) need to be in Evocation.

Why except for Orb of Acid? It seems like it functions identically to the other orb spells. Am I missing something? :smallconfused:

[fryplink]

Why except for Orb of Acid? It seems like it functions identically to the other orb spells. Am I missing something? :smallconfused:

I would imagine that is because it actually calls Acid, a real thing, into existence. The other Orb spells are all expressions of energy (or lack thereof) with the exception of Orb of Acid, and maybe force, depending on what the force is actually caused by and made of.

[onemorelurker]

I would imagine that is because it actually calls Acid, a real thing, into existence. The other Orb spells are all expressions of energy (or lack thereof) with the exception of Orb of Acid, and maybe force, depending on what the force is actually caused by and made of.

Oh, that makes perfect sense. I guess I'm so used to thinking of in-game acid as an energy type that I forgot that it's also a physical thing. :smallredface:

[legomaster00156]

On another note, I personally despise the Conjuration (creation) subschool. It makes no sense. Evocation manipulates energy to create effects, while Conjuration (creation) manipulates energy to create matter. But why not simply roll Conjuration (creation) right into Evocation? It makes a lot more sense, at least to me.

[NNescio]

On another note, I personally despise the Conjuration (creation) subschool. It makes no sense. Evocation manipulates energy to create effects, while Conjuration (creation) manipulates energy to create matter. But why not simply roll Conjuration (cration) right into Evocation? It makes a lot more sense, at least to me.

Acid Arrow
Evocation [Acid]

Major Creation
Evocation

Cloudkill
Evocation

Grease
Evocation

Wall of Stone
Evocation [Earth]

ಠ_ಠ

[legomaster00156]

Acid Arrow
Evocation [Acid]

Major Creation
Evocation

Cloudkill
Evocation

Grease
Evocation

Wall of Stone
Evocation [Earth]

ಠ_ಠ
Precisely. And Bahamut knows that Evocation NEEDS the boost, just as much as Conjuration needs the nerf.

[nedz]

Have you considered that there may be spells which can fit into several schools ?
Different casters could use different routes to the same effect.
E.g. Fear could be done by Illusion, Enchantment, Necromancy or, with some creative thinking, Abjuration (protection from fearlessness) or Transmutation (change of someones mental state).

[NNescio]

Precisely. And Bahamut knows that Evocation NEEDS the boost, just as much as Conjuration needs the nerf.

It makes zero sense in the above examples, the (Creation) subschool mentions nothing about manipulating energy, and if you're going to insert that line anyway practically anything can be classified under Evocation, since you're manipulating (magical) energy at all times.

From a balance perspective, that would shove most of Conjuration's BFCs (and Genesis) and nukes into Evocation, displacing and obsoleting a significant amount of spells that are already in Evocation.

I mean, sure, now you can neither ban Conjuration or Evocation, but most of the spells you moved are Conjuration's staple and signature spells, in effect turning Evocation into Conjuration and Conjuration into "that school with the teleports and (overpowered) planar binding spells".

So, yeah, ಠ_ಠ
Now, if it's only energy spells (force in particular) except for acid, then I'm more amendable to the change. And all save one of the Orb spells should belong in Evocation anyway.

[sreservoir]

of course (creation) manipulates energy, mass-energy equivalence, duh!

mind, it's a hell of a lot of energy, but.

[Chronos]

Quoth tyckspoon:
Necromancy was not assigned spells based on the school descriptions; it was assigned spells because they're spooooooky and/or feel like something an Evil Necromancer (with the skull ring!) would do.Ahem. "Department of Postmortem Communications". Definitely not necromancy; that would be bad.

And what school a cleric spell goes into is largely irrelevant, anyway, since clerics don't specialize. I agree wholeheartedly about the Orb spells, though: As written now, you should be able to pick up an Orb of Force and throw it back at the caster.

[NNescio]

of course (creation) manipulates energy, mass-energy equivalence, duh!

mind, it's a hell of a lot of energy, but.

"Of course all magic manipulates energy, First Law of Thermodynamics, duh!"

See, the thing is, energy in D&D does not mean the same thing as it does in Physics.

[fryplink]

"Of course all magic manipulates energy, First Law of Thermodynamics, duh!"

See, the thing is, energy in D&D does not mean the same thing as it does in Physics.

First, I think I might sig this someday.

Second, if we're playing that game, then conj and evok need to be the same school, because all mass is energy and all energy is energy.

Third, there has to be a way to exploit this, perhaps Minor Creation-ing the supercritical mass of an unstable element? Those explosions are measured in TNT equivalent amounts and so we would have a method of stating them damage (I cast Minor Creation and roll 2786d6 Fire, Sonic and Force damage). This is assuming my understanding of physics is great enough that this works they way I think it does.

[Ancient Mage]

Reality Maelstrom, a really good 9th level spell from Spell Compendium is oddly placed school-wise. It rips open a whole in the fabric of reality, sucking things to another plane. (Think a cross between a black hole and the gate spell.)
You'd think that would be conjuration, the school of the planes, but its evocation instead. Strange.

-Ancient Mage

[sreservoir]

First, I think I might sig this someday.

Second, if we're playing that game, then conj and evok need to be the same school, because all mass is energy and all energy is energy.

Third, there has to be a way to exploit this, perhaps Minor Creation-ing the supercritical mass of an unstable element? Those explosions are measured in TNT equivalent amounts and so we would have a method of stating them damage (I cast Minor Creation and roll 2786d6 Fire, Sonic and Force damage). This is assuming my understanding of physics is great enough that this works they way I think it does.

well, not really. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2010735&postcount=38) although anti-meitnerium might be better.

I mean, sure, as a rare metal, it might only last 1 round/level. that's enough to annihilate stuff and then destroy things nearby.

[fryplink]

well, not really. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2010735&postcount=38) although anti-meitnerium might be better.

I mean, sure, as a rare metal, it might only last 1 round/level. that's enough to annihilate stuff and then destroy things nearby.

Is anti-matter a kind of matter? or is it something else?

From the SRD (minor creation):
You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter

Emphasis mine, unless it means "vegetable matter" (as a single idea) and not nonliving and vegetable "matter". Using antimatter is better than using unstable elements though. 100% energy conversion far outweighs the 12% or so that you get from fission.

[Psyren]

You want to boost Evocation? Merge it with Abjuration. You manipulate all energy, including that of other casters.

Hey, it works for psionics.

[sreservoir]

Is anti-matter a kind of matter? or is it something else?

From the SRD (minor creation):
You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter

Emphasis mine, unless it means "vegetable matter" (as a single idea) and not nonliving and vegetable "matter". Using antimatter is better than using unstable elements though. 100% energy conversion far outweighs the 12% or so that you get from fission.

well, you need major creation for metals, yes.

since "matter" isn't really defined that I know of, the only definition I can find in a general dictionary which would exclude antimatter is "(physics) Matter made up of normal particles, not antiparticles. (Non-antimatter matter)."

eh, you can probably just MC a critical mass of something anyway. less efficient, but.

[fryplink]

eh, you can probably just MC a critical mass of something anyway. less efficient, but.

Eh' sometimes not killing the world is the way to go. I like the world. Magic-ing a ton of anti-matter into it kills it. Magic-ing fissile material probably won't. Sometime more daka isn't the answer. Plus radiation in the area could be a boon as per the situation.

[sreservoir]

conclusion: being able to standard action major creation without needing material components would be marvelous.

[Chronos]

Emphasis mine, unless it means "vegetable matter" (as a single idea) and not nonliving and vegetable "matter". Using antimatter is better than using unstable elements though. 100% energy conversion far outweighs the 12% or so that you get from fission.Double nitpick: First, fusion only gives about 0.6% conversion, and fission is even less than that. Second, antimatter annihilation will give you 100% conversion, but most of it ends up being wasted in neutrinos, which don't really do anything interesting (they'll just pass right through the monsters, without dumping their energy into them), so in practice, antimatter would work out to only something like 40% (I'd have to re-run the calculations to be sure).

Apologies to the catgirls.

[Morph Bark]

You want to boost Evocation? Merge it with Abjuration. You manipulate all energy, including that of other casters.

Hey, it works for psionics.

And merge Enchantment with Illusion? :smallwink:

[fryplink]

Double nitpick: First, fusion only gives about 0.6% conversion, and fission is even less than that. Second, antimatter annihilation will give you 100% conversion, but most of it ends up being wasted in neutrinos, which don't really do anything interesting (they'll just pass right through the monsters, without dumping their energy into them), so in practice, antimatter would work out to only something like 40% (I'd have to re-run the calculations to be sure).

Apologies to the catgirls.

Ok, sorry, the 12% number was produced from a 6 month old memory from a symposium after the japan disaster. I was there for the Political and Economic talks. I was half asleep during the physics talks.

[Big Fau]

I would imagine that is because it actually calls Acid, a real thing, into existence. The other Orb spells are all expressions of energy (or lack thereof) with the exception of Orb of Acid, and maybe force, depending on what the force is actually caused by and made of.

Nitpick: Fire is a chemical reaction, and actually has a mass (somewhat; it reacts differently in zero gravity than it does under gravity, and high gravity may have an effect on it).

That said, the Orbs really do not make sense at all. You can play baseball with Orbs of Sound...


conclusion: being able to standard action major creation without needing material components would be marvelous.

See: Greater Dragonmark (Mark of Making).




My personal hatred? Deathwatch. WHY IS IT EVIL!?!

[Alienist]

like something an Evil Necromancer (with the skull ring!)

The reason for the skull ring is because desecrate isnt a necromancy spell either...

[legomaster00156]

My personal hatred? Deathwatch. WHY IS IT EVIL!?!
Because, just like the Animate Dead line, there's obviously no way whatsoever that it can be used for good. Nope, never.
In general, I hate the law/chaos/good/evil descriptors on any spells EXCEPT those they're specifically designed for: Detect X, Protection from/Magic Circle against X, Holy Smite, and the like.

[chadmeister]

In general, I hate the law/chaos/good/evil descriptors on any spells EXCEPT those they're specifically designed for: Detect X, Protection from/Magic Circle against X, Holy Smite, and the like.

My favorite is Planar Binding. You can force an Archon, a servant of Good Dieties, on to the Material Plane against its will and trap it until it does your bidding. Obviously, this is a Good spell.

[legomaster00156]

My favorite is Planar Binding. You can force an Archon, a servant of Good Dieties, on to the Material Plane against its will and trap it until it does your bidding. Obviously, this is a Good spell.
So, one of the quickest ways for an evil conjurer to earn redemption is by enslaving Good extraplanars? :smalleek:

[Sdonourg]

My personal hatred? Deathwatch. WHY IS IT EVIL!?!

At least the nightstalker (an awesome dragonlance class) treats it as non-evil.

[NNescio]

First, I think I might sig this someday.
Go ahead.



Second, if we're playing that game, then conj and evok need to be the same school, because all mass is energy and all energy is energy.
Interestingly, both "Evoke" and "Conjure" happen to be synonyms...

Ah, TSR. On the one occasion you use a thesaurus, you don't use it the way we ask.

[JKTrickster]

Have you considered that there may be spells which can fit into several schools ?
Different casters could use different routes to the same effect.
E.g. Fear could be done by Illusion, Enchantment, Necromancy or, with some creative thinking, Abjuration (protection from fearlessness) or Transmutation (change of someones mental state).

Wait....I have actually never heard this idea before. It's an interesting take, but it seems too complicated (spells would simply be reprinted across multiple schools).

On the other hand some schools really should be folded together. E.g. Folding Illusion and Enchantment wouldn't be that bad and it would give Enchantment a good enough boost to remain relevant at higher levels (although True Seeing + Mind Blank still shuts it down).

[NNescio]

Wait....I have actually never heard this idea before. It's an interesting take, but it seems too complicated (spells would simply be reprinted across multiple schools).

On the other hand some schools really should be folded together. E.g. Folding Illusion and Enchantment wouldn't be that bad and it would give Enchantment a good enough boost to remain relevant at higher levels (although True Seeing + Mind Blank still shuts it down).

PHBII introduced dual-school spells. They work a little differently. Casting dual-school spells require access to both schools and they count as either school for the purposes of prerequisites and benefits. Similar benefits don't stack though -- a caster with Spell Focus in both schools still only gets a +1 to his DC.

[nedz]

The idea is not that new. 2E introduced Specialist Wizards (ignoring 1E's Illusionist etc.) and in that edition some spells were in two schools.
And then 2E's Tome of Magic introduced Elemental Wizards - who specialised in one of {Air, Earth, Fire, Water}. A Fire specialist's list contained spells which were on other lists e.g. Fireball, Fireshield, etc.
Its important to note that the same spell cast from different schools are probably different spells - since they harness arcane power through different paths - kind of like convergent evolution. They just happen to produce very similar effects.
Which gives me another idea, ..., time for another thread perhaps ?

[Zaq]

My favorite is Planar Binding. You can force an Archon, a servant of Good Dieties, on to the Material Plane against its will and trap it until it does your bidding. Obviously, this is a Good spell.

I can't be sure, but I think the intention there was that you can't cast spells with opposing descriptors to your own alignment (I know that's not really the case for most people, but I don't think WotC knew that), so Darklord Evilguy can't use the spell to summon good-aligned critters, only evil ones. That's not what actually happened, of course, but I think that was the intent.

No proof for this, of course. Just an educated guess.

[Steward]

I can't be sure, but I think the intention there was that you can't cast spells with opposing descriptors to your own alignment (I know that's not really the case for most people, but I don't think WotC knew that), so Darklord Evilguy can't use the spell to summon good-aligned critters, only evil ones. That's not what actually happened, of course, but I think that was the intent.

No proof for this, of course. Just an educated guess.

Isn't that mainly for clerics though?


A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#chaotic,%20Evil,%20Good,%20and%20Lawful %20Spells)

I honestly can't remember if arcane casters can cast spells that have a descriptor opposed to their own alignment.

If there is, the Malconvoker would have a workaround for it though, right?

[Jeraa]

Isn't that mainly for clerics though?

I honestly can't remember if arcane casters can cast spells that have a descriptor opposed to their own alignment.

If there is, the Malconvoker would have a workaround for it though, right?

Clerics and druids. Sorcerers and wizards don't care about alignment descriptors. Repeated casting could possibly change their alignment, but they aren't prevented from casting the spell.

[dextercorvia]

The idea is not that new. 2E introduced Specialist Wizards (ignoring 1E's Illusionist etc.) and in that edition some spells were in two schools.
And then 2E's Tome of Magic introduced Elemental Wizards - who specialised in one of {Air, Earth, Fire, Water}. A Fire specialist's list contained spells which were on other lists e.g. Fireball, Fireshield, etc.
Its important to note that the same spell cast from different schools are probably different spells - since they harness arcane power through different paths - kind of like convergent evolution. They just happen to produce very similar effects.
Which gives me another idea, ..., time for another thread perhaps ?

In 2e some actually belonged to 3 schools. I never saw clear language on whether you could use a spell if one of its schools was banned for you, but the other wasn't.

[fryplink]

Nitpick: Fire is a chemical reaction, and actually has a mass (somewhat; it reacts differently in zero gravity than it does under gravity, and high gravity may have an effect on it).

Ok... giving up on making science-y statements outside of my field (which, is only sort of science {Poli and Econ Sci}). Though heat is energy, which is, I hope, where the damage is coming from.

Also: Animate Rope is a transmutation spell. I change rope into.... moving rope.
Spectral Hand is a necromancy spell. Magic Hand delivers spell. Watchout for the negative energy involved.
Rope Trick is a Transmutation spell, even though it's big brothers, the secure shelter line are Conj.

[dextercorvia]

Ok... giving up on making science-y statements outside of my field (which, is only sort of science {Poli and Econ Sci}). Though heat is energy, which is, I hope, where the damage is coming from.

Also: Animate Rope is a transmutation spell. I change rope into.... moving rope.
Spectral Hand is a necromancy spell. Magic Hand delivers spell. Watchout for the negative energy involved.
Rope Trick is a Transmutation spell, even though it's big brothers, the secure shelter line are Conj.

Its Spectral and Disembodied!:smallbiggrin:

[Zeta Kai]

Implosion is a special case, but it warrants mentioning. It is Evocation, which is exactly right, & it's a pretty cool spell for any blaster-mage to use...

What, what's that? It's a Cleric-only spell? Really? Really?!? :smallconfused:

Yeah, really. :smallsigh: One of the coolest Evocation spells is Cleric-only. Now, I'm not saying that Wizards need more power. But neither do Clerics, & it doesn't even fit them thematically. For a company that assumed that casters would blast & healbots would heal, WotC sure got this one backward.