The holy warrior that no-one talks about.

[Elboxo]

So we all know Paladin is pretty bad, but for an upcoming campaignette I'm designing, I am thinking of allowing Paladin and maybe bard, as the two classes I'm allowing from the Player's Handbook, because Bards are exotic enough to be fun for full-casters to melee characters and because Paladins need more recognition........

So, with acfs prestige classes, whatever, how can you make a paladin more flavourful, preferably by the lowly level of 5, but up to about 10.

The aim here is to make Paladin different from Fighter with spellcasting instead of feats, to try and make it have definining features past "smite" and a mount.

Sources allowed are Feats/Spells from PHB, no other classes/races from there, nearly everything else is allowed except for Kindom of Serpents and Dragon Magazine.

[Manateee]

Honestly, rather than dig through a pile of sourcebooks, I'd just slap on the Bard's spell progression, Charisma-based casting, Cleric spell access and at least 4+Int skill points per level. If you feel just giving the Paladin stuff, feel free to strip its Cure Disease, Lay on Hands, etc. This is assuming your aiming for the same power-level as the Bard.

The Paladin - even with whatever weird variants you dig up* - just isn't that interesting.

*Maybe... Curse Breaker, Mystic Fire Knight, probably Paladin of Freedom, maybe Shadow Cloak Knight? None of it's enough to put it on the same footing as the Bard.

[Elboxo]

Honestly, rather than dig through a pile of sourcebooks, I'd just slap on the Bard's spell progression, Charisma-based casting, Cleric spell access and at least 4+Int skill points per level. If you feel just giving the Paladin stuff, feel free to strip its Cure Disease, Lay on Hands, etc. This is assuming your aiming for the same power-level as the Bard.

The Paladin - even with whatever weird variants you dig up* - just isn't that interesting.

*Maybe... Curse Breaker, Mystic Fire Knight, probably Paladin of Freedom, maybe Shadow Cloak Knight? None of it's enough to put it on the same footing as the Bard.

Thanks for the prompt reply, how about mix and matching acfs, with charisma based casting on a Paladin of Freedom?

[Kenneth]

If you are going to be fighting a lot of evil outsiders.. knight of the Chalice is a pretty badass PrC. ( recomend instead of fiendslaying being at 1st/3rd/6th/9th you make it every odd level kind of like a sneak attack progression that what I did, not like the paladin don't need a bit of love. being able to do +5d6 holy dmg to evil outsiders per attack is pretty awesome. kinda like a mini smite)

Pious templr is ptretty rocking.. you are basiclally a paladin within a paladin

but honestly the Divine Crusader is the single BEST PrC for paladins ever.. what really killed Paladins in 3rd ed was teh fluff did not meet teh mechanics.. The cleric was ebbter suited to a holy smack down layer of evil, rule-wise why? greater access to spells! If the paladin had greater access to spells wel.. he would be a force to be reckoned with.. wait.. whats this..? The divine crusader is able to cast 9th level spells!!!
the requirements are BaB +7 weaponf ocus in your diety's weapon and Knowledge religion :2 ranks and your laigment must match your diety's..

so that means as a paladin7/Divine crusader 9 ( id stop there becuase lvl 10 make you an outsider so you cna no longer be subject to a lot of spells.. like enlarge person etc.) youd be a 16th level character that can cast 9th level spells 100% legally without tricksy rules interpretations..
anywyas.. yeah get Divine Crusader.. just the ability to cast up to 6th level cleric spells should be more than anough to warrant your buddy wanting this for his paladin.. Oh and Divine Crusader is in Cmplete Divine.

[navar100]

If the 3E Paladin is not to your liking:

1) Use a Crusader.

2) Use Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana. Enter as 4/1 Fighter/Cleric for more combat focus via feats or 2/3 Fighter/Cleric of a bit more oomph in spellcasting. You're only effectively a level behind in Paladinesque abilities like Lay On Hands and Bonded Mount progression as a 3E Paladin of equal character level once you enter the prestige class but have more feats via Fighter and better spellcasting via Cleric. Your Smite Evil will suck more. Instead, use the plus number to hit to fuel a well-timed big Power Attack. Take a Divine Feat to spend your Turn Undeads.

3) Use a Pathfinder Paladin. That's a Paladin! CHA based spellcasting. Smite Evil worthy of being called a Smite. Versatile Lay On Hands. Bonded Weapon instead of Bonded Mount allowing you to choose from a set of enchantments. More class features like immune to charms and compulsions and share Smite Evil ability with party members.

[Metahuman1]

Take Pathfinder Paladin and the 3.5 Spell list. The whole spell list. Including spell compendium. Now give it to the Pally.

Now make Smites a Per Encounter Ability, like the Factotums Inspiration points.

Next, give it 4 skill points a level and add the Crusaders class skills to the already existing class skills.

Last, give it the Crusader Maneuver Mechanic and progression.


Congratulations. You now have a wonderful Paladin fix that is very different form a core fighter and get's several tricks you just couldn't duplicate on any other class.

[Treblain]

Divine Crusader lets you cast spells from a single domain, and by RAW, acquiring new domains doesn't let you cast from them. Nor does it seem to have a caster level, but if it did, it would suck. And once you get to level 16, what next?

Battle Blessing (CC) is a feat that lets you cast paladin spells as a swift action. I'm sure someone's going to bring up Sword of the Arcane Order, but that's not a paladin.

If you're willing to do a little homebrew, give it some fighter feats and make Smite per encounter instead of daily, or at will against [Evil] subtype creatures.

[Ravens_cry]

Use Pathfinder Paladin, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin)they're pretty rockin'. They ain't clerics, but they can pull out the smash and their Lay on Hands are good secondary healing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium) reduces your MAD. Take Battle Blessing (CChamp) for the ability to cast paladin spells as a swift action.

[Fax Celestis]

You could also try the d20r paladin (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=198).

[Alienist]

There is the prestige paladin.

Take cleric to start with, then a coupe of levels of ordained champion, then prestige paladin.

[HunterOfJello]

1. The number one thing that a paladin can be given is an alternate code. Make paladins choose an alignment other than true-neutral and set up a short list of things they will adhere to. The traditional paladin code is too restrictive for most players, which leads to them ignoring the class. The UA paladin alternatives are either just as restrictive (CE) or create codes that are extremely difficult/impossible to adhere to over a long period of it (CG & LE).

2. If you want to improve a paladin's abilities then I would start by giving them more spells per day. Have their progression start at level 1 and have them max out at 6 spells per day at each spell level before bonus spells.

3. Also add some other stuff in including:



More skill points. (4 + Int)
Tower Shield proficiency
Smite Evil 1/encounter
modify Lay of Hands somehow to give out a bit more hp and have a minimum of the charisma bonus counting as 1 (in case of charisma drain, etc.)
Turn Undead as cleric of same level
Charisma only spellcasting


4. Have Paladins progress to 6th level spells over 20 levels. Give them access to all Cleric Spells or some other long list that's similar to the cleric (i'm not sure if there's a list like this out there).

5. Another slightly more complex option would be to include 1/2 a crusader's maneuver progression. Take the progression a crusader gets up to level 10 and spread that out among 20 levels. The highest level maneuver possible would be 5th level maneuvers.

~~~~

I think there were a lot of great possibilities for Initiator-Spellcaster mixes that were never fully realized. The dual progression PrCs aren't too great and they wouldn't be fully necessary if some decent base classes were implemented that included both from the get go. A class that gains a delayed progression of both would be great imo.

[Kenneth]

Poo.. never really realized that about the DIvine Crusader.. a domain to cast form is sort of not so good.. unless I guess you take the celestia domain....

and if we are offerign homebrews.. might as well be a bit selfish and give mine :) Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11913739&postcount=13)

[Elboxo]

If the 3E Paladin is not to your liking:

1) Use a Crusader.

2) Use Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana. Enter as 4/1 Fighter/Cleric for more combat focus via feats or 2/3 Fighter/Cleric of a bit more oomph in spellcasting. You're only effectively a level behind in Paladinesque abilities like Lay On Hands and Bonded Mount progression as a 3E Paladin of equal character level once you enter the prestige class but have more feats via Fighter and better spellcasting via Cleric. Your Smite Evil will suck more. Instead, use the plus number to hit to fuel a well-timed big Power Attack. Take a Divine Feat to spend your Turn Undeads.

3) Use a Pathfinder Paladin. That's a Paladin! CHA based spellcasting. Smite Evil worthy of being called a Smite. Versatile Lay On Hands. Bonded Weapon instead of Bonded Mount allowing you to choose from a set of enchantments. More class features like immune to charms and compulsions and share Smite Evil ability with party members.

This is for my PCs, trying to make Paladin interesting as a viable option, pathfinder paladin sounds cool! Thanks.


1. The number one thing that a paladin can be given is an alternate code. Make paladins choose an alignment other than true-neutral and set up a short list of things they will adhere to. The traditional paladin code is too restrictive for most players, which leads to them ignoring the class. The UA paladin alternatives are either just as restrictive (CE) or create codes that are extremely difficult/impossible to adhere to over a long period of it (CG & LE).

2. If you want to improve a paladin's abilities then I would start by giving them more spells per day. Have their progression start at level 1 and have them max out at 6 spells per day at each spell level before bonus spells.

3. Also add some other stuff in including:



More skill points. (4 + Int)
Tower Shield proficiency
Smite Evil 1/encounter
modify Lay of Hands somehow to give out a bit more hp and have a minimum of the charisma bonus counting as 1 (in case of charisma drain, etc.)
Turn Undead as cleric of same level
Charisma only spellcasting


4. Have Paladins progress to 6th level spells over 20 levels. Give them access to all Cleric Spells or some other long list that's similar to the cleric (i'm not sure if there's a list like this out there).

5. Another slightly more complex option would be to include 1/2 a crusader's maneuver progression. Take the progression a crusader gets up to level 10 and spread that out among 20 levels. The highest level maneuver possible would be 5th level maneuvers.

~~~~

I think there were a lot of great possibilities for Initiator-Spellcaster mixes that were never fully realized. The dual progression PrCs aren't too great and they wouldn't be fully necessary if some decent base classes were implemented that included both from the get go. A class that gains a delayed progression of both would be great imo.

Ooh great suggestions! Just what I wanted, bard-progression with per-encounter smite and Cha basedcasting, I'd probably allow more skills too, and suggest Battle-Blessing to my PCs.

Thanks everyone!

EDIT: Since it's a rather low level story ( EL 5) I'm giving the Paladin the following: 4 + Int skills, Smite Evil is once per encounter, Spellcasting is based off Charisma, Spellcasting follows the Bard progression: Gets spells/day equal to the Bard of equal level. With the option of Lay on Hands OR Tower Shield Proficiency. The improved skill list is yet to be decided

[Mando Knight]

Tower Shield proficiency

...Tower Shields? Really? They're huge and ungainly. I'd rather use a Heavy shield or two-hand than use a shield that basically doubles my armor weight.

[Deepbluediver]

Personally, I would rather see the Paladin AS a prestige class.

By compressing everything down from 10 levels to 20 we can get rid of a lot of the dead spots, and the flatter spell structure won't seem so pointless if you buff it up a bit (find ways to get the higher tier War/Good/Healing spells in there). I'm gonna homebrew a version of that some day (probably cribbing a good portion of it from Pathfinder) but for now I've got other stuff on my plate, sorry.

[HunterOfJello]

...Tower Shields? Really? They're huge and ungainly. I'd rather use a Heavy shield or two-hand than use a shield that basically doubles my armor weight.

Tower Shields can be very handy in many situations. They aren't the norm, but they're still pretty good. At the very least, it doesn't hurt a paladin to gain free proficiency with them. I bet the only reason they weren't given prof. for them in core was so that Fighters would be the only class who can use them without taking a feat.

[Elboxo]

I might look at improving the mount too, ideas anyone?

[Treblain]

My favorite mount-boosting idea is to make the mount able to change shape. It can be a horse... or a giant spider in caves, or a shark at sea, or a giant eagle when you need to fly... it keeps a class feature from being entirely situational.

[Snowbluff]

Take Pathfinder Paladin and the 3.5 Spell list. The whole spell list. Including spell compendium. Now give it to the Pally.

Now make Smites a Per Encounter Ability, like the Factotums Inspiration points.

Next, give it 4 skill points a level and add the Crusaders class skills to the already existing class skills.

Last, give it the Crusader Maneuver Mechanic and progression.


Congratulations. You now have a wonderful Paladin fix that is very different form a core fighter and get's several tricks you just couldn't duplicate on any other class.

This seemed fine until you added Crusader. Crusader is T3 by itself. Any more and you're entering OP-Sorc territory.

Though I would make Pallies Spontaneous Casters if they weren't already.

[Prime32]

Personally, I would rather see the Paladin AS a prestige class.

By compressing everything down from 10 levels to 20 we can get rid of a lot of the dead spots, and the flatter spell structure won't seem so pointless if you buff it up a bit (find ways to get the higher tier War/Good/Healing spells in there). I'm gonna homebrew a version of that some day (probably cribbing a good portion of it from Pathfinder) but for now I've got other stuff on my plate, sorry.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

[Metahuman1]

This seemed fine until you added Crusader. Crusader is T3 by itself. Any more and you're entering OP-Sorc territory.

Though I would make Pallies Spontaneous Casters if they weren't already.

I said Crusaders Maneuver progression. Not all his other features. You don't get furious counter strike, Metal, Steely resolve, ext. Just Maneuvers. If you want to weaken it, fine, here's a slight alternative that's not as simple.

You take the Crusader maneuver progression, stick it on the paladin. But instead of every time your turn comes up you roll for your new maneuver available, you have to stop and spend a full round action to get granted an additional two maneuvers. When you have no more ready maneuvers to grant, spend a full round action to refresh.

This is like a hybrid of swordsage and crusader. And probably weaker then either. Combine it with my other suggestions and your still awesome high Tier 3, but your less likely to step on toes.



It's not like any sensible core 3.5 paladin isn't already dipping Crusader anyway for maneuvers.

[Deepbluediver]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

Thanks, I hadn't seen those.

Their better, I guess, but they've STILL got dead levels. Maybe we could do the same thing except use the Pathfinder version of the paladin instead.

[Snowbluff]

I said Crusaders Maneuver progression. Not all his other features. You don't get furious counter strike, Metal, Steely resolve, ext. Just Maneuvers. If you want to weaken it, fine, here's a slight alternative that's not as simple.

You take the Crusader maneuver progression, stick it on the paladin. But instead of every time your turn comes up you roll for your new maneuver available, you have to stop and spend a full round action to get granted an additional two maneuvers. When you have no more ready maneuvers to grant, spend a full round action to refresh.

This is like a hybrid of swordsage and crusader. And probably weaker then either. Combine it with my other suggestions and your still awesome high Tier 3, but your less likely to step on toes.



It's not like any sensible core 3.5 paladin isn't already dipping Crusader anyway for maneuvers.

Except that a Crusader's Maves >>>>>>>>> it's class features. Sure the SS Mave recovery weakens it, but a single Feat would lets you recover all of them, and the randomness of the Crusader's Recovery serves to counter the action economy.

Also, you have that last part wrong. It's the Crusaders who are dipping in Paladin. :smalltongue:

[MeeposFire]

I said Crusaders Maneuver progression. Not all his other features. You don't get furious counter strike, Metal, Steely resolve, ext. Just Maneuvers. If you want to weaken it, fine, here's a slight alternative that's not as simple.

You take the Crusader maneuver progression, stick it on the paladin. But instead of every time your turn comes up you roll for your new maneuver available, you have to stop and spend a full round action to get granted an additional two maneuvers. When you have no more ready maneuvers to grant, spend a full round action to refresh.

This is like a hybrid of swordsage and crusader. And probably weaker then either. Combine it with my other suggestions and your still awesome high Tier 3, but your less likely to step on toes.



It's not like any sensible core 3.5 paladin isn't already dipping Crusader anyway for maneuvers.

For the most part the crusader class features are nice but offer little to its overall rating. Changing the recovery mechanic can lower its ability but the actual class features are just nice for the most part.

[Curious]

Thanks, I hadn't seen those.

Their better, I guess, but they've STILL got dead levels. Maybe we could do the same thing except use the Pathfinder version of the paladin instead.

You might check out my sig for an updated version of the Prestige Bard, but I haven't gotten around to Paladin or Ranger.

[Red_Dog]

My small comment on "valid paladin builds"...

*following is my opinion only =] take it or leave it*

First 1-20 Paladin is kinda of a suicide mission. I would advise bailing after you get Curse braking(6th). But until maybe level 10 I guess won't be so much IF you want to improve your mount. But still...
Alternatively lvl3 is potential THE BEST time to hop off the crazy train.

Out of 4 alignment variations the power scale is=> Freedom>Tyranny>PHBI>Slaughter
================================>
Freedom
Gets almost permanent IMMUNITY TO COMPULSION at lvl3.
FREAKING 3! And he gives +4 to his allies in 10 feet radius. Just watch out for attacks when you are a sleep.
Curse breaker variant is very thematic for him as he "frees" people from "magical shackles". Plus the variant is one of the best out there so grab it.
Second best feature of Freedom is that he has the 2nd shortest stick ludged up his.. am moving along *rollseyes* = ]
Remember that Paladin of Freedom by nature are very flexible which is why the multiclassing ideas can be widely different from ranger, crusader, swordsage, warblade, Gray Guard(scoundrel), or a Divine Crusader dedicated to an obscure Domain ^^ Just make sure your deity is EXACTLY CG, as divine crusader will need(or forcefully shift) your alignment to much the deities.
*Also note that while holy liberator SOUNDs logical, mechanically its not that great. His main shindig is the same mind-immune/resisting aura and you already have it ^^
================================>
Tyranny
Second best choice. Most people use him to build excellent No-Save-Just-DIE de-buffers. That truly strike horror. His class "stick" is also the shortest of them all, especially if campaign is at least Neutral. He won't have to charging maniacally since as long as he is "working towards domination" he is fine. Especially if you pick a tricky, plotting deity that doesn't like to much noise as long as job is done, you are golden even in ALL good party ^^. Sure you'll stink of evil, but you can get away with it.
Sadly however, his jump-off point is usually lvl3. There is just nothing there for him after that. = \ A Swordsage will make a great multiclassing choice for a conniving character. As will fighter, some rouges Divine crusader and hell even an Assassin as long as you will work towards your goals secretly or not, the class is fine. Some people also like HexBlade 4 for dark companion dip(for nice -6 to saves easy-peazy!). Also while gimped, Hexblade's abilities go of Charisma and he gets mettle. Marshal Dip can be amazingly helpful as well, depending on campaign or just for awesome sauce saves and potential +1DC Dragon aura ^^
================================>
As for the other two odd ducklings... just don't bother. Your party will hate the rants of lawful good as much as chaotic evil. They are simply to straightforward and limited in what they can and can not do = \ Codes just kill them if campaign isn't written for them = \

*EDIT*
P.S. Don't forget Divine Power/Shield if your charisma lets you. Divine Might actually makes Two-Weapon fight very plausible (more attacks utilize it better). In-fact, paladin's saving grace usually is being Charisma Centered. While not nearly as awesome as Factotum synergy=> You can add it to Dmg, AC, Saves, Skills, speed (vigor), self healing(evil profane leech/stuff from Complete Divine), Various Devotions and some other stuff (can't recall all as if now). So yeah a Charisma focused Paladin of Freedom dual-wielding isn't the worst option out there ; )

[Deepbluediver]

My small comment on "valid paladin builds"...

*following is my opinion only =] take it or leave it*

First 1-20 Paladin is kinda of a suicide mission. I would advise bailing after you get Curse braking(6th). But until maybe level 10 I guess won't be so much IF you want to improve your mount. But still...
Alternatively lvl3 is potential THE BEST time to hop off the crazy train.

Out of 4 alignment variations the power scale is=> Freedom>Tyranny>PHBI>Slaughter

I never really liked the idea of non lawlful-good paladins, but I have played an alternate Prestige class called the Divine Liberator, which is basically the exact same thing as a chaotic-good paladin. It's just one more option if you want to go that route.

[Red_Dog]

Prestige class called the Divine Liberator
While he is a fine class I guess... Lucks signature Divine Grace(Cha to saves) but ok over all. Just don't take it as an actual Paladin. Take it as anything else just not a Paladin, not even Freedom. Freedom gains nothing from it, and other Paladins LOOSE there stuff! I mean its like ex-cleric Ur-Priest, except you didn't suddenly went Dark Side on your god, you just decided to "disobey" even a bit... So yeah, Warblade, Crusader or w/e martial (or even half sneaky as long as you get that +5 BAB) with Sense Motive/Diplomacy.

But you know, if this is what you want thematically than sure. But mechanically just loosing 5 class levels is steep penalty. = \

[Rubik]

Loose =/= Lose, (http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/looselose.html) though I guess if you loose something you could lose it if it doesn't come back.

[Red_Dog]

Loose =/= Lose, (http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/looselose.html) though I guess if you loose something you could lose it if it doesn't come back.

*claps slowly* = P, Apologies for being dyslexic in two languages = ]. If not for spell-check I wouldn't make a lick of sense ^^

[elvengunner69]

So why is the Paladin despised so much? I've heard it referenced as a glass cannon in other threads. Is it because it is so limited in what it does (have honor when fighting, obey the law and smash stuff)? I think it's kind of fun as I have a Paladin with some back story (father killed by baddies, adopted by a religious order, grows bitter but then a selfless act by one of his teachers who sacrifices his life defending some farm out in the middle of nowhere..or maybe it was somewhere...anyway...). The back story was fun to make up and he's kind of the morale compass for the rest of the party who are all good but tend towards chaos and/or neutrality).

I'm tempted to add some Kensai (not sure if I spelled that right) once I meet the requirements (lvl 6 I think) but would multi-classing in Fighter give the Paladin some more backbone for people playing more 'core'? Or is it case of spending your GP on things to buff your AC so you are hard to hit?

Just curious on the reasoning....

[Rubik]

*claps slowly* = P, Apologies for being dyslexic in two languages = ]. If not for spell-check I wouldn't make a lick of sense ^^I was just trying to help, really. I'm an editor, and that generally translates to 'grammar nazi,' though I try to be nicer about it.

Dyslexia is understandable (as is being multilingual with English not being the primary language), so it's okay. What's NOT okay is when native speakers obliterate their own language and have no viable justification for doing so. (And no, "being a lazy arse" isn't viable, but it's the usual culprit.)

[Rubik]

So why is the Paladin despised so much? I've heard it referenced as a glass cannon in other threads. Is it because it is so limited in what it does (have honor when fighting, obey the law and smash stuff)? I think it's kind of fun as I have a Paladin with some back story (father killed by baddies, adopted by a religious order, grows bitter but then a selfless act by one of his teachers who sacrifices his life defending some farm out in the middle of nowhere..or maybe it was somewhere...anyway...). The back story was fun to make up and he's kind of the morale compass for the rest of the party who are all good but tend towards chaos and/or neutrality).

I'm tempted to add some Kensai (not sure if I spelled that right) once I meet the requirements (lvl 6 I think) but would multi-classing in Fighter give the Paladin some more backbone for people playing more 'core'? Or is it case of spending your GP on things to buff your AC so you are hard to hit?

Just curious on the reasoning....First is that the paladin class is an extremely narrow class, justifying its place as a low tier. Second is that it gives nothing of real worth outside the first few levels, so there's no reason to take it past level 3 or so (though there are exceptions, mainly with ACFs). And third is that damnable code. Unless the DM works with the player to customize it and make it a bit more flexible, it leads to the paladin being the morality police to the whole party, retards roleplaying for everyone else, prevents the redemption of evil, and in more extreme situations, leads to killing children of various races "because they're born Evil". Even fiends can be redeemed, but never by a paladin following his code.

[Manateee]

So why is the Paladin despised so much?
...
Just curious on the reasoning....
Despising Paladins has nothing to do with their abilities, and could probably be resolved with a visit to a good proctologist. :p

It's also a weaker class that basically stops gaining class abilities a quarter of the way through its progression. But that's not anything that most D&D classes don't experience.

[Red_Dog]

To elvengunner69 Main issues is that a 10 foot pole that can be purchased as an item by most other character in the "equipment section", comes as standard Paladin's class feature... = ]

In all seriousness in core only, Paladin is horrible, with less use than even a fighter. When supplements come to play, one can build a decent (tier4-3ish) charisma centered character. You will be able to do dmg, have high enough AC, and bunch of other percs. You might not be a cannon ball of destruction that is Dungeon Crusher fighter (although you can multiclass into one), but you'll have flavor.

To Rubik Don't worry, I'm not offended ^^. I've been speaking english for around 8 years now. Dyslexia never left, but spell check helps.

[Mando Knight]

In all seriousness in core only, Paladin is horrible, with less use than even a fighter.
Really? They get a rather tough mount for building a charger, and can provide their own buff and healing spells. If there's someone around to provide those spells for the Fighter, sure, the Paladin is worse off, but in a vacuum, I'd give it to the Paladin...

[Red_Dog]

Really? They get a rather tough mount for building a charger, and can provide their own buff and healing spells. If there's someone around to provide those spells for the Fighter, sure, the Paladin is worse off, but in a vacuum, I'd give it to the Paladin...

The only ONE advantage the Paladin has over a Fighter in core only is that he is not a socially inapt person who communicates with mix of grunts, mouth foaming and absence gestures. And even than, an aforementioned 10 foot pole screws with that ability. In other words, Paladin can do diplomancy. And fighter can cross skill that if he REALLY wants to.
*Also, of course, paladin actually has saves. That is true and can't be disregarded, but that's lvl2 ability. Staying for longer might be not a great choice*

Mount btw, would be kind of neato if campaign took place where it can be used. Which in core is just "Plains"... & maybe Hills & some deserts.

Marshes, underground, Dungeons, sea, rocky terrain, mountains, forest, swamps are not catering to a mounted Knight in full armor.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Marshes, underground, Dungeons, sea, rocky terrain, mountains, forest, swamps are not catering to a mounted Knight in full armor.

Hippogriffs, griffons, and pegasi can't fly over anything other than a dungeon or underground?

[Metahuman1]

Except that a Crusader's Maves >>>>>>>>> it's class features. Sure the SS Mave recovery weakens it, but a single Feat would lets you recover all of them, and the randomness of the Crusader's Recovery serves to counter the action economy.

Also, you have that last part wrong. It's the Crusaders who are dipping in Paladin. :smalltongue:

So put in that they can't take that one feat as a house rule if it's unbalancing the game more then a none blaster Sorcerer/favored soul/Psion is going too going by strict RAW and moderately competent optimization levels. I garrote you, Paladin still doesn't have enough nice things even in the original suggestions of mine to pull that little stunt off. Sure as heck doesn't have enough to be as bad as a Cleric or an Artificer or an Erudite.

So the warrior that is all about having a God back him up is finally capable of giving Gish in a can and Conan the Barbarian a meaningful run for there money? Why is that so bad?

[undead hero]

Take a look at the 2e paladin then turn him into a 3.X character.

Now that was a one evil smiting class! :D

[Snowbluff]

So put in that they can't take that one feat as a house rule if it's unbalancing the game more then a none blaster Sorcerer/favored soul/Psion is going too going by strict RAW and moderately competent optimization levels. I garrote you, Paladin still doesn't have enough nice things even in the original suggestions of mine to pull that little stunt off. Sure as heck doesn't have enough to be as bad as a Cleric or an Artificer or an Erudite.

So the warrior that is all about having a God back him up is finally capable of giving Gish in a can and Conan the Barbarian a meaningful run for there money? Why is that so bad?

Omg...

OKay, you are suggesting Take the Crusader, T3 by itself with it's Maves, make it behave like another T3 class. While adding Spells, a Mount, Turn Undead, etc.

I hope you know 2 things. First, the Crusader exists. Second, if you want these things, don't homebrew something. Cleric dips and RKV exist for a reason.

I'd suggest model a new Paladin Class after the Duskblade. It's T3, a gish in a can, and will fulfill everything everyone would expect from a Paladin. Maybe add mount.

[Rubik]

Omg...

OKay, you are suggesting Take the Crusader, T3 by itself with it's Maves, make it behave like another T3 class. While adding Spells, a Mount, Turn Undead, etc.

I hope you know 2 things. First, the Crusader exists. Second, if you want these things, don't homebrew something. Cleric dips and RKV exist for a reason.

I'd suggest model a new Paladin Class after the Duskblade. It's T3, a gish in a can, and will fulfill everything everyone would expect from a Paladin. Maybe add mount.I have a question.

What's a mave?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have a question.

What's a mave?

Maneuver .

[elvengunner69]

Is there a monster class like Hound Archon that would make a straight Paladin better? And what about mixing it with a Knight and/or Crusader?

[Gwendol]

There are some multiclassing alternatives to take after the usually recommended break-off points. Purple Dragon Knight is one. The CW version allows for progression of Paladin, if that is important.
Paladin-Knight is thematically viable: one gets a mount and the other gets mounted bonus feats. They are both alignment restricted. Paladin 5/Knight 4/PDK 5/?

[Aran Thule]

You could go for dragon devotee from Races of Dragons, gives a decent stat boost and allows you to cast spells like a lev 1 sorc with no armour misfire chance.