How do you prevent the Shadowcolypse?

[Yahzi]

As we all know, one shadow + one village of commoners = complete devastation of all living things in a week or two. Yet most of us DM games where that hasn't happened yet.

So, as DM, what is the reason in your world that Shadows/Wights haven't taken over, and that Gated Solars/Balors haven't destroyed everything, or that chain-wishing Djinn haven't created the Tippyverse yet?

In my world, I rule that XP is a tangible resource (like gold), and just as it takes XP to level characters, it takes XP to create monsters (not counting ordinary animals). So the Shadows can't create other shadows for free (it takes 128 commoners to make one shadow, so by the time the first one has drained an entire village, there are only 2 Shadows for the heroes to deal with). The chain-wishing thing is also fixed by asserting that every spell-like effect has to be paid for in XP; Dijnn can cast wish and probably have enough XP available to cast it once when they're fighting for their lives, but they can't get unlimited ones. There are a finite number of Solars/Balors, and being servants of the gods they have rules on their ability to interfere (although I haven't worked those out yet).

Also, since my XP table doubles at every level, there are way fewer 11+ wizards around.

How do you solve these problems in your world?

[Treblain]

Because narrative trumps game mechanics. Just decide that in your game, it doesn't happen. If you're worrying about the Shadow-pocalypse or some other abusable chaining mechanic enough that you need to work it into your campaign setting, it's getting in the way (unless you have a cool idea that actually works well, obviously). You are not obligated to take every rule to its allegedly "logical" conclusion.

[bloodtide]

Rules.

My basic idea is that all the great powers of the Multiverse go together in the long, long ago before time and set down the rules. Basically everyone agreed to not cause the apocalypse, as everyone wants the Multiverse. Even the most extreme beings were forced into the rules by everyone else.

This stops anything 'too bad' from happening. Either by changes to the fabric of the Muiltverse, police squads, or out right bribes/agreements.

So you take undead. The gods of undead agree to ''keep the numbers under control'', and the gods of light agree not to ''hunt undead to extinction''. So like most treaties each side gives/gets a little. The treaty also has plenty of gray areas so they can attempt to do things a bit.

Each 'side' also keeps plenty of troops ready to watch for violations and can teleport whole armies in to set things right/cause trouble. And there are watchers for the watchers and so on. So on one 'side' can really make much of a move without 'sticking there necks out' and being vulnerable.

Mortals, in general, are not effected by the rules.

[Yahzi]

Because narrative trumps game mechanics.
That's not a house rule so much as as a hand wave. If I'm just going to make it up as I go along, then the dice are a lie. AND WE MUST RESPECT THE DICE!

:smallbiggrin:

I'm not asking for trivial things like the drowning rules to have no mistakes; I'm asking for fundamental elements (monsters that spawn) to have been thought about in such a way that this doesn't occur:


Player: "My summoned shadow kills an orc and spawns another shadow."

DM: "OK."

Player: "My summoned shadow kills an orc and spawns another shadow."

DM: "OK."

Player: "My summoned shadow kills an orc and spawns another shadow."

DM: "No, that doesn't work."





Rules
Do you have any concrete ones? I'm still figuring out the whole "limited diety interaction" thing. A simple solution is that if you get a Gate, they get a Gate; but that kinda begs the question of why you would ever use Gate.

[bloodtide]

Do you have any concrete ones? I'm still figuring out the whole "limited diety interaction" thing. A simple solution is that if you get a Gate, they get a Gate; but that kinda begs the question of why you would ever use Gate.

There are tons of concrete ones. The type of rule that changes the fundamental way the universe works.

Gate--The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or type of being as you cast the spell, you may cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature, who must then make a Will save or the gate will pull the subject through to the caster. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. To control a creature the caster must use additional spells, magic or skills to get the desired result.

You may simply ask the creature to preform a service. It's reaction depends on your alignments, the creatures attitude and the type of service asked to preform. A simple service can take no more then one round per level to do and must be immediate. You may choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from the called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward.


Limited Diety Interaction--this is the sandbox problem(as in the four wooden railroad ties enclosing six square feet of sand). Say you and several others carefully build roads, houses, towers, buildings and such out of the sand and add in lots of model figures, animals and trees. Once you have it all set up, it's hard or even impossible to change things. If you want to move a single cow figure in the middle of the sandbox you must step into the sandbox, and try your best not to step on anything or crush or destroy anything. Even just the wind created by your careful step can knock things down, as can something a simple as your breath.

Deities face the same problem. They can't effect the world very much without 'stepping' on things. So they have to limit what they do, and do most of the things they want indirectly.

[Snowbluff]

That's not a house rule so much as as a hand wave. If I'm just going to make it up as I go along, then the dice are a lie. AND WE MUST RESPECT THE DICE!

:smallbiggrin:

I'm not asking for trivial things like the drowning rules to have no mistakes; I'm asking for fundamental elements (monsters that spawn) to have been thought about in such a way that this doesn't occur:

Do you have any concrete ones? I'm still figuring out the whole "limited diety interaction" thing. A simple solution is that if you get a Gate, they get a Gate; but that kinda begs the question of why you would ever use Gate.

I have one. I made it up. It's congruent with how DM's will normally operate, though. Each DM is a deity, who's tasked with maintaining equilibrium sanity and insanity, in whatever form they may take. Some, like me, will apply thermodynamics to prevent these from happening, while others will apply something more useful. Like common sense.

It's not a handwave so much as "Snowbluffius the Odd smites any new Shadows being created for the next hour or so" or "A squad of Paladin can be found patrolling these part on a regular basis, slaying any wight infestations".

[absolmorph]

Shadowcolypse and Wightocalypse are prevented by demon squads who work out of the Abyss.
Because they don't want to deal with hordes of those things, either.

EDIT: Also, dedicated forces of clerics.

[tiercel]

Because narrative trumps game mechanics. Just decide that in your game, it doesn't happen. If you're worrying about the Shadow-pocalypse or some other abusable chaining mechanic enough that you need to work it into your campaign setting, it's getting in the way (unless you have a cool idea that actually works well, obviously). You are not obligated to take every rule to its allegedly "logical" conclusion.

+1

This is particularly true for full-on rules abuse (e.g. infinite wish cycles) where, as a practical matter, it just gets nipped in the bud by DM saying "no" before it begins.

As for a shadowpocalypse, while shadows obviously multiply on small scales, as long as it isn't happening "on screen" you can use the handwaving argument ("do you really want the world to have already ended?"). If it does start to happen on-screen, then you bring out a more detailed explanation.

In the case of a default-Greyhawk-pantheon world, the church of Pelor hates, hates, HATES undead, and one could reasonably assume mid-level clerics and up who aren't already on a mission of some sort spend at least some spell slots on divinations asking Pelor about Undead Outbreaks of Doom (assuming that Pelor doesn't just send his clerics scary dreams "HEY, get off your butt, go here and stop shadows from taking over the world!").

If a shadowpocalypse got to the point of consuming a city of any significant size, it is not unreasonable to assume that most every church, everywhere (excepting maybe some CE ones), would mobilize to contain and then destroy the end-of-the-world event, not to mention most adventurers.

Really, though, it does boil down to a fantasy version of the weak anthropic principle, i.e. "of course we live in a world that happens to operate by rules that allow us to be here -- otherwise, we wouldn't be here."

[Demonic_Spoon]

In the case of a default-Greyhawk-pantheon world, the church of Pelor hates, hates, HATES undead, and one could reasonably assume mid-level clerics and up who aren't already on a mission of some sort spend at least some spell slots on divinations asking Pelor about Undead Outbreaks of Doom (assuming that Pelor doesn't just send his clerics scary dreams "HEY, get off your butt, go here and stop shadows from taking over the world!").

You forget that Pelor is evil (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate).

[GolemsVoice]

I see nothing wrong with handwaving it so that it just doesn't work. After all, I'm the GM. I run the world, all the NPCs, I have calculated all the monsters, the loot, designed the dungeons, all that. That's no mean feat, especially in D&D, where one can spend hours just for one high-level NPC. For this, I expect the players to respect the world I've created. That doesn't mean I will stop them from being clever and, for example, talk over/avoid an NPC I spent a long time on, but I won't have them break the game or the world. However, I expect my players to know this, and not even try.

Though I have the luck to be in a group of very good people, no matter the system. We aren't really optimizers, but things like the "Shadowcolypse", even if they were known, are things that one acknowlegdes as a fun exercise of thought and an example of the more extreme moments of D&D, but nobody of my friends would ever think about actually DOING such a thing. It just doesn't happen.

[tiercel]

You forget that Pelor is evil (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate).

*cackles* Yeah, alright, I almost had forgotten. But even in that shocking expose (soon to be "accidentally" deleted by a convenient solar flare), we get:


Pelor hates undead as they cannot properly suffer in the same way as mortals.

So my point still stands; the Burning Hate will fight the shadowpocalypse just as much (or even more) than the little goody-two-shoes "healing goodness and light" facade that the naive subscribe to. ;)

[Cwymbran-San]

As for the shadowcalypse, it's simply economics of population. Shadows possess an innate intelligence, and they are predators in the truest sense of the word. They feed on life energy, just like wights and others.
If i were a predator with a little intelligence, what reason would i have to kill off everything i can feed off if i am not hungry?
Why would i wish to create a lot more predators in the process as absolutely neccessary? As a predator, i am not interested in procreation or world domination, i am interested in survival, which means staying fed.
Same is true for wights, vampires and all the others.

On the rules side, in my campaign worlds, undead take damage from sunlight, so they are not very mobile in the sense of conquering settlements.

[Hirax]

Too many powerful outsiders have an interest in the material plane to let it become overrun by shadows. If you were a deity, would you sit idly by while your principle source of worshipers was devoured and turned into worthless undead?

Also, shadows and wights aren't that powerful. Unless there are no characters above level 4, survivors would eventually get organized and take back the world, perhaps living in exile on another plane while preparing. Holy storm traps would be more than sufficient to fortify communities, they offer no save, no SR, and a 40' diameter AOE that does 4d6 damage to undead and evil outsiders per round, with a rounds per level duration.

If there's even one character that can cast hallow, then they can package death ward into the casting of hallow. Then shadows and wights are entirely thwarted, because if you're within the hallowed area, then you're immune to their energy drain attacks, at which point shadows are no threat. Wights still have their slam attack, and perhaps weapons if you're willing to let them use their intelligence score, but at that point you're back to conventional warfare, which humans are very good at.

So yeah, I don't see this as a realistic possibility for ending the world. Like any sort of plague it could wipe out entire regions, but it wouldn't engulf the entire plane.

[Alleran]

You forget that Pelor is evil (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate).
The post in that link has left out one crucial factor, that being the similarity between Pelor's image and the image of another god. Look upon the holy symbol of Zarus. Then look upon the holy symbol of Pelor. Take away the beard, and you are left with two images that are strikingly similar. Almost as if one deity is the same as the other... except bearded. The two are more or less side by side here (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pelor).

[Tenno Seremel]

The reality shattering power of PCs empowers Shadows/Wights. Without their presence they cannot do it.

[Psyren]

You know, the good guys have divination too. You'd think that "annihilation of entire world by self-propagating undead" would show up on someone's radar during that Commune or CoP session, or relate to the goddess of life's portfolio in some way.

In short, there are good deities/clergy that keep tabs on things like that.

[Yora]

The main reason the world doesn't get whiped out by powerful monsters is, that most of them have no reason to seek out any living humanoid they can find to kill.
Undead usually only prey on those who get close to their lair, but don't travel far to search for new victims. They usually can survive without feeding on the living without problem and often do so for decades or centuries.
If you happen to find a wight being trapped behind a crumbling wall in your basement, there's a good chance wights will eliminate the entire village in a few nights. But then they won't start a large scale search for other settlements to annihilate. Once everyone in the village is killed or fled, they just make their lairs in basements and crypts in the village and stay there until someone comes wandering to close.

And if they do try to start a large scale hunt on the living, this will get the attention of high level adventurers who are more than capable of killing dozens if not hundreds of undead all by themselves.
A shadow against villigers is nasty. But a 6th level cleric with a couple of fighters can take care of them just fine.

With demons, its a bit stranger, as most settings really have no reasons why demons would be interested in destroying mortal towns. Unless you are working on divinity, there's really no benefit in slaying mortals and having cultists.
But again, if you try something big, you are going to step on some other powerful peoples toes. You might be able to defeat them, but that leaves you open to attacks by other demon lords who will gain a lot by taking over another demons domain.

[Steward]

These are all good reasons.

It's also possible that most of these spells and creatures are rarer than you might imagine. It's very possible to create a world where most spellcasters never go past fifth or sixth level, and shadows, wights, and similar creatures are so rare that most people have never even heard of them. Alternatively, you could create a world where mid-level clerics are common place, so only the most powerful undead have a real shot at taking over vast settlements.

[Grollub]

That's not a house rule so much as as a hand wave. If I'm just going to make it up as I go along, then the dice are a lie. AND WE MUST RESPECT THE DICE!

:smallbiggrin:

I'm not asking for trivial things like the drowning rules to have no mistakes; I'm asking for fundamental elements (monsters that spawn) to have been thought about in such a way that this doesn't occur:






Do you have any concrete ones? I'm still figuring out the whole "limited diety interaction" thing. A simple solution is that if you get a Gate, they get a Gate; but that kinda begs the question of why you would ever use Gate.

Is this all about your players TRYING to create a "shadowcolypse"? If so, let them... Good luck having them control ALL the shadows/wights tho. It would quickly get out of hand and they would lose control; forcing them to deal with the problem or die.

[Yahzi]

Undead usually only prey on those who get close to their lair, but don't travel far to search for new victims.
Now there's a perfect houserule: Shadows/Wights can't travel more than a mile from where they're spawned. It neatly localizes the problem to the adventure area in a consistent and intuitive manner (intuitive because everybody knows places are haunted).

One sentence in the MM and bam! problem solved, with virtually no impact on the rest of the rule set. House rule score: 10 out of 10! Too bad they didn't ask you before printing. :smallcool:



An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases
Yes, Gate is already set up to allow the DM to intervene reasonably. Gate is not a law of physics (like how Shadows spawn) but simply a tool of diplomacy. You can summon a Solar and ask it to do something; but the next time you summon it and ask it to do the same thing, it might not be willing, since its decision is influenced by what happened last time. That's a perfect ad hoc situation; the Solars can learn, so the player gets to use his clever trick once but not so many times it ruins the game.



It's very possible to create a world where most spellcasters never go past fifth or sixth level, and shadows, wights, and similar creatures are so rare that most people have never even heard of them. Alternatively, you could create a world where mid-level clerics are common place, so only the most powerful undead have a real shot at taking over vast settlements.
The first one only makes the problem worse; the rarer magic is, the more powerful magic-users are. The second dramatically changes the nature of your campaign world; but worse, it is not the campaign world described in the source books.



If you were a deity, would you sit idly by while your principle source of worshipers was devoured and turned into worthless undead?
But the deities sit idly by while their worshipers are slaughtered by <insert BBEG of the week>.


Unless there are no characters above level 4, survivors would eventually get organized and take back the world, perhaps living in exile on another plane while preparing.
A fascinating campaign idea... but hardly the one described by the standard books. :smallbiggrin:

Still, houseruling that civilized lands are protected by ancient magics, while uncharted lands are anything goes, is a classic of fantasy and would work very well; the rule is easily extended to cover all sorts of situations other than just shadows. (Gate doesn't work here! Or Wish! etc. as necessary) Didn't Chivalry & Sorcery go so far as to say that magic and class powers didn't work inside civilized lands - that your heroes were just ordinary people in the King's castle?



I see nothing wrong with handwaving it so that it just doesn't work.
But I want to wave my hands in advance. It makes the players respect me more. :smallbiggrin:



Is this all about your players TRYING to create a "shadowcolypse
All parties try to "break the world." It's how you win at D&D. You do something so reality bending it destroys the campaign world, the DM elevates your characters to Godhood, and everybody starts over!

I thought everybody played this way. :smallwink: Or maybe it's just the nature of the sandbox game.

[Steward]

The first one only makes the problem worse; the rarer magic is, the more powerful magic-users are.

How so? Depending on how rare it is, there might be only one spellcaster able to use Gate in the world. Sure, he might decide to take over the world, but he might not. He might not have even discovered the spell 'Gate', yet. It's really up to the DM what NPCs do, isn't it?


The second dramatically changes the nature of your campaign world; but worse, it is not the campaign world described in the source books.

I don't understand this argument. Are you suggesting that most games in D & D are set in a single 'world' with a clearly-defined ecology and geography? I don't know about you, but apart from actual settings (Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Eberron) the generic setting of D & D is pretty malleable in most of my games. Not every desert campaign will encounter every single creature in Sandstorm. Not every campaign set in the wintertime will be exactly the same -- word-for-word -- as what was presented in Frostburn.

Even the books themselves allow DMs to adapt certain details of a setting when it won't quite fit. Shadows can be as common as lice in one DM's game while in another, most people in the game world will never lay eyes on one. The Tippyverse can exist in one person's game while in another, magical advancement is slow or not nearly as widespread. Heck, depending on when you set the game, you could have the PCs be the ones to set up the Tippyverse themselves, as they become part of the first generation of magic-users. The game rules don't really stop you, as long as everyone's having fun, right?

[Hirax]

But the deities sit idly by while their worshipers are slaughtered by <insert BBEG of the week>.


That is an entirely different scenario that shouldn't even be a blip on the radar in this discussion.

[Yahzi]

How so?
It's a general perception garnered from years of gaming. The rarer you make magic, the more unique it is, the more power it has.

Mage Hand is a silly spell in classic D&D. In Las Vegas, where they don't have Detect Magic, it is a game-breaker.


Are you suggesting that most games in D & D are set in a single 'world' with a clearly-defined ecology and geography?
There are rules in the DMG for generating the standard "town." Every edition of D&D has included percentile breakdowns of how many magic users, what level they are, etc. Also, virtually every published module presumes these basic environmental variables.

However, this default setting has some gaping holes that require explanation to make sense. That's what I want to see: the houserules for that. This is something only the sandbox style simulationists are going to be interested in; narrative types are going to say, "That doesn't happen," and be done with it.

But if I was your player, I would ask, "Why doesn't it happen?" :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

But the deities sit idly by while their worshipers are slaughtered by <insert BBEG of the week>.


No - they send adventurers, just like they would here. And when those adventurers need curative items and spells, they go to the good churches for help, or better yet they have a good servant of those churches along for the ride as a party member.

As was stated earlier in the thread, a level 6+ party can rip through a number of shadows or wights. A level 10+ party can nip an -ocalypse squarely in the bud, and if it has the backing of a BBEG or evil organization then the final solution is full-scale war.

[Grinner]

Limited Diety Interaction--this is the sandbox problem(as in the four wooden railroad ties enclosing six square feet of sand). Say you and several others carefully build roads, houses, towers, buildings and such out of the sand and add in lots of model figures, animals and trees. Once you have it all set up, it's hard or even impossible to change things. If you want to move a single cow figure in the middle of the sandbox you must step into the sandbox, and try your best not to step on anything or crush or destroy anything. Even just the wind created by your careful step can knock things down, as can something a simple as your breath.

That....is a fantastic analogy.

[Hazzardevil]

Shadowcolyose never happens because there are too many powerful parties who have an interest in it not happening.
The devil's don't want it to happen because it cuts off their supply of divine power, meaning they can't fight the demon's, which is not in the other god's interest because the demon's want to destroy reality. So it comes down to shadowcolypse mucks up the devil's, which lets the demon's destroy all of reality.

Simple really.

[candycorn]

Why doesn't it happen?

Well, in my games, Pun Pun has ascended to godhood, and is the god of continuity preservation and cheese.

Whenever cheese occurs on a level that would disrupt the balance of the world, Pun Pun steps in, shakes his head, says "beat you to it", and corrects the issue.

[Avaris]

Player: "My summoned shadow kills an orc and spawns another shadow."

DM: "OK."

Player: "My summoned shadow kills an orc and spawns another shadow."

DM: "OK."

Player: "My summoned shadow kills an orc and spawns another shadow."

DM: "No, that doesn't work."

Surely this is fixed fairly simply... "You run out of Orcs"

A shadowcolypse can only happen if the shadows reach critical mass before they encounter something strong enough to stop them. This requires sufficient weak things to kill before said strong thing turns up.

Simple logic says this is unlikely enough as to not be a problem for a gm unless they wish to make it a problem. Consider: you live in a village of 200 people. One day your mate Jeff disappears. A search party is sent out, but finds no trace. This unnerves you. The next day an entire family disappears. This DEFINATELY unnerves you in a community of this size, especially if no trace is found. People start talking, trying to figure out what is happening, maye keeping regular tabs on each other and moving in groups. Eventualy someone sees a shadow, and panic spreads. People know they can't deal with this, so flee the area. Word spreads to nearby settlements as well, and if the incursion is big enough people will likely flee those as well. Meanwhile, those best equipped to deal with it are drawn to the area. Shadowcolypse averted.

Alternatively, maybe the Shadows (or someone controlling them) are smart enough to try to build their numbers quickly. It is likely to take several rounds for a shadow to completly drain even a peasant, and that is several rounds worth of screaming and trouble. Again, people will panic, and most peasants aren't that brave: they flee. The shadows will catch some, but others will escape, spreading word of what happened (as much as they know). Again, people will be ready and those who can deal with the problem will be drawn there. Shadowcolypse averted.

[Psyren]

A single Holy Word can clear out all Shadows within 40 ft., even around corners. Even Greater Shadows will be rendered easy pickings.

[HunterOfJello]

I prefer methods of superior and opposite force. Attempting to destroy the balance of the world invokes the sudden appearance of multiple Inevitables, Angels, Demons, Devils, Druids or other beings that keep careful watch of such things.

Want to use a series of Bags of Holding and Portable Holes as weapons to destroy a massive castle? A few Quarut Inevitables (CR 17) are going to have a few questions for you immediately afterwards.


If I was DMing a game the first groups I would think of would be Druids who hate large numbers of undead wandering the surface and Shadow Giants (FF) who dislike tiny people messing with the realm of Shadow. A single CR 18 Shadow Giant will likely change the minds of a normal party of adventurers once it rips apart all the shadows with ease and then starts attacking the party members one by one until they swear they will never mess with the plane of shadow once again.


In game methods of dealing with problems are always more fun for everyone than saying "No".

[ericgrau]

CR >= 3 guards of various classes (or higher/lower CR mixed groups even).

Because any town dumb enough to not have guards would have already been taken over a long time ago anyway. Hmm... let's say by goblins and kobolds.

A more complicated question might be how many shadows can hide in a given city before they are detected and exterminated.

[Demonic_Spoon]

They're incorporeal, so that can just chill in the ground until a hapless peasant gets near them.

[Hirax]

Which is why they shouldn't stray out of an area under the effects of hallow packaged with death ward. 100% shadow proof.

[Psyren]

They're incorporeal, so that can just chill in the ground until a hapless peasant gets near them.

When they attack in this way, this impervious defense gets downgraded to cover (+4 AC) - not exactly insurmountable.

Sure the peasants are still screwed (they're unlikely to have ghost touch weapons after all) but against adventurers this is a poor tactic.

[Jack_Simth]

That's not a house rule so much as as a hand wave. If I'm just going to make it up as I go along, then the dice are a lie. AND WE MUST RESPECT THE DICE!
House Rule:
Undead don't so much "not eat" as they eat ambient negative energy... which, being inimical to life, is not found in areas dense with the living. An undead cannot produce his own negative energy (with a handful of exceptions: A Ghost, which draws its energy from the emotions that created it; and a Lich [and any lich-like creature, such as the Dry Lich of Sandstorm), which gets it's energy from it's phylactery). Any undead away from a source of negative energy invokes the rules of dehydration, modified thusly:
1) All damage from not getting their negative energy is lethal damage.
2) Any reference to a constitution check in the dehydration rules is replaced with a Charisma check.
3) Any reference to a fortitude save in the dehydration rules is replaced with a Will save.

In the case of a caster who has created undead via spell, this explains the limit of his control: He can only produce so much negative energy that way to keep them 'fed'. Any undead in excess of this amount are no longer sticking with him as their meal ticket. Ditto for the Commanded undead control limit.

Thus, a lich has to keep his phylactery accessible to himself (he must return to it regularly for sustenance). Undead are found in areas where there is little life (sources of negative energy - usually due to evil events, sometimes arcane tampering).

And undead in an area dense with life don't last long.

[ericgrau]

They're incorporeal, so that can just chill in the ground until a hapless peasant gets near them.

Look bra, if level 3 adventurers can hunt and kill them routinely so can guards. I was intentionally general to avoid endless tactic A beats tactic B beats tactic C arguments. But you can go back and forth forever with Psyren I suppose (no offense to him, it's easy bait to take). Simply put, shadows might be able to do X sometimes but they can't defeat everyone nor hide from every means of detection. They're only CR 3. Eventually when it becomes a big enough problem out go the exterminators and/or defenses.

[Zale]

Simple.

Add this to their entry.


Shadows are extremely territorial, and will rarely ever go beyond five miles from where they are spawned.

Now a Shadow can wipe out an isolated village, but never go to far away from it.

[Ancient Mage]

This problem is fixed in the Greyhawk setting in several ways:

(1): true deities (divine rank 6+) cannot enter the material plane. Period. A few are allowed access, but most are the good deities, not evil ones. In addition, the rules of the gods make the Flanaess secure from angel/demon hordes in the thousands from trundling across it.

(2): adventurers. In any campaign, if something starts to go wrong, there are always adventurers to solve the problem. Mordenkainen, Tenser, Bigby, Robilar, and Riggby are always around to solve major problems, as are your PC's.

(3): If you take the D&D rules verbatim, and just play as they say, with no narrative, no plot, no decisions made on your own, then the game would be horrible. This is why we DM's decide on our own when certain things happen, and we can rule that undead do not suddenly overcome the world all the time. Only when we want them to.

Remember, the rules are a guide, the game is in your imagination.

-Ancient Mage

[Psyren]

Look bra, if level 3 adventurers can hunt and kill them routinely so can guards. I was intentionally general to avoid endless tactic A beats tactic B beats tactic C arguments. But you can go back and forth forever with Psyren I suppose (no offense to him, it's easy bait to take). Simply put, shadows might be able to do X sometimes but they can't defeat everyone nor hide from every means of detection. They're only CR 3. Eventually when it becomes a big enough problem out go the exterminators and/or defenses.

Actually, Shadows are widely considered to be under-CR'ed (along with plenty of other incorporeal baddies - Hi, Allips!) Don't let WotC's CR assignments mislead you; they actually deserve to be higher.

[GolemsVoice]

I prefer methods of superior and opposite force. Attempting to destroy the balance of the world invokes the sudden appearance of multiple Inevitables, Angels, Demons, Devils, Druids or other beings that keep careful watch of such things.

Want to use a series of Bags of Holding and Portable Holes as weapons to destroy a massive castle? A few Quarut Inevitables (CR 17) are going to have a few questions for you immediately afterwards.

Again, as a player, I consider it a form of politeness towards the DM not to break his games by invoking shady rules. Because, after all, if I'm supposed to siege/sneak into the castle, I have just destroyed my adventure, too. And as a DM, I'd ask the same of my players.

Not that it would be wrong to destroy a village by using shadows, that would actually be quite cool and incredibly atmospheric if the characters suit this tactic, but I would veto it without feeling bad once the players intentionally let it get out of hand.

[absolmorph]

Look bra, if level 3 adventurers can hunt and kill them routinely so can guards. I was intentionally general to avoid endless tactic A beats tactic B beats tactic C arguments. But you can go back and forth forever with Psyren I suppose (no offense to him, it's easy bait to take). Simply put, shadows might be able to do X sometimes but they can't defeat everyone nor hide from every means of detection. They're only CR 3. Eventually when it becomes a big enough problem out go the exterminators and/or defenses.
To the bolded, I have one question: with what?

[Yahzi]

House Rule:
Undead don't so much "not eat" as they eat ambient negative energy... which, being inimical to life, is not found in areas dense with the living.
Another good one. Again, it intuitively maps to "adventure areas" and "civilized areas."


Again, as a player, I consider it a form of politeness towards the DM not to break his games by invoking shady rules. Because, after all, if I'm supposed to siege/sneak into the castle, I have just destroyed my adventure, too. And as a DM, I'd ask the same of my players.
That's the difference between narrative and simulationist.

I don't create adventures so much as create a world. The players can sneak into the castle or they can burn it down; it's really on them. When I make up bad guys, I make them level appropriate, but I don't have any idea how the heroes are supposed to defeat them; that's up to them. :smallbiggrin: