The Stupid Crusader?

[Rossebay]

So, what exactly is the Stupid Crusader? I've heard about it, but I don't quite know how to execute it.

The recovery mechanic for Crusader is a bit annoying, so... Any suggestions on changing that via the rules?

[sreservoir]

idiot crusader? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8218.0) grab some warblade levels to fill up, prc out where applicable.

[Snowbluff]

I would not change how the Crusader recovers Maves. It's doesn't take actions, which is neat. I'd suggest printing out some Mave cards and shuffling them.

[Big Fau]

idiot crusader? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8218.0) grab some warblade levels to fill up, prc out where applicable.

As mentioned in this link, the Idiot Crusader is a build capable of constantly refreshing it's entire maneuver supply every round, and does not have restricted maneuver access.

It, like Chuck, is not meant for normal gameplay. It is little more than a thought experiment and RAW loophole.

[Gnaeus]

As mentioned in this link, the Idiot Crusader is a build capable of constantly refreshing it's entire maneuver supply every round, and does not have restricted maneuver access.

It, like Chuck, is not meant for normal gameplay. It is little more than a thought experiment and RAW loophole.

I dunno. Its strong, but as long as it can't WRT itself for infinite action loops, It isn't unplayable in a really high op party. It isn't, for example, more broken than a Planar Shepherd, which someone somewhere obviously thought was a good idea in play.

[gkathellar]

As mentioned in this link, the Idiot Crusader is a build capable of constantly refreshing it's entire maneuver supply every round, and does not have restricted maneuver access.

It, like Chuck, is not meant for normal gameplay. It is little more than a thought experiment and RAW loophole.

Eh. I have to agree with Gnaeus. It's extemely high-op, probably too good for a Tier 3 party that isn't similarly optimized, but unlimited maneuver access isn't exactly at TO levels of powerful.

[Big Fau]

I dunno. Its strong, but as long as it can't WRT itself for infinite action loops, It isn't unplayable in a really high op party. It isn't, for example, more broken than a Planar Shepherd, which someone somewhere obviously thought was a good idea in play.

The thing is interpreting RAW far enough for the Idiot Crusader to work means that self-WRTing isn't off the table.

[NOhara24]

An example where this WOULDN'T be OP is likely a party like my current one. We've got a DMM cleric and a Planar Shepard Druid (nerfed significantly, though.)

A melee fighter with access to all his maneuvers, all the time, would fit in nicely.

My poor, poor DM.

[Seerow]

The thing is interpreting RAW far enough for the Idiot Crusader to work means that self-WRTing isn't off the table.

I play in a group where idiot crusader would be fine, but self WRTing would get a book thrown at you.

I mean idiot crusader really just means "Have all your best options available each round". It might get a little boring, but it's really hard to call extremely overpowered. I mean a Crusader with no optimization at all can easily hit that same point after a few rounds of combat. Idiot Crusader just gets to have it all the time without having to hold back for a few rounds to make it happen.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, WRT gives you multiple turns per round, but your maneuvers only refresh once per round, so you could not WRT more than once in a given initiative round regardless.

The idea behind an Idiot Crusader is that you only know as many maneuvers as you have granted at the start of your recovery cycle, so all of your maneuvers are granted/refreshed every round. Note that this only applies to Crusader maneuvers, not maneuvers gained from any other class. Apart from WRT shenanigans, you're probably going to be spamming lower-level maneuvers than what a single-class initiator if your current level would be using, making it less than game breaking. Even with WRT, it's a case of melee getting Nice Things, you're taking two turns per round to make melee attacks/strikes, not casting twice as many AoE save-or-lose spells.

I would not consider it TO-level or even higher than a Tier 3. Tier 1 can do anything they want at any time, or with a day's preparation, making every lower-tier class obsolete. Tier 2 can be built to do anything but cannot switch what it does the next day, and has access to the same game-breaking tricks of Tier 1. IMO the only way to consider an Idiot Crusader above Tier 3 would be if he's spamming WRT on an allied primary spellcaster, or if he's using that to activate multiple magic items per round, rather than making his melee strikes. He's still stuck in the high end of Tier 3 unless he can completely negate multiple opponents' actions or defeat an appropriate challenge single-handed. I'd make him Dragonborn with Entangling Exhalation, but even using that with WRT I'd still put him below Tier 2.

[Big Fau]

First of all, WRT gives you multiple turns per round, but your maneuvers only refresh once per round, so you could not WRT more than once in a given initiative round regardless.

No, the Crusader recovers at the end of his turn, not the end of the round.


If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers

In fact, none of the initiators have a restriction on how many times per round they can recover their maneuvers other than actions/round.

[Seerow]

Biffoniacus_Furiou: I just double checked and I'm pretty sure you're wrong on how Crusader recovery works. The distinction never mattered to me because I specifically avoid using WRT usually, but the book says the Crusader's maneuvers are refreshed at the end of his turn, not and the end of a round. Since WRT moves up your initiative order to give you a new turn, maneuvers would refresh, and he could use it again.


Edit: got ninjad, by a second guy with the initials of B_F. What are the odds of that? Edited for clarity.

[dextercorvia]

First of all, WRT gives you multiple turns per round, but your maneuvers only refresh once per round, so you could not WRT more than once in a given initiative round regardless.

This is incorrect. The Crusader recovery is explicityl based on turns, not rounds.


If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers

Edit: Ninja'd hard