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Mystify
2012-01-14, 10:28 AM
I am working on a variant set of rules for spellcasting. I realize this will not completely fix the core inbalances of the system, but I hope it will fix some of the undesired properties of the system while still maintaining a sense of balance.

Issues I am attempting to address
1. general incapatability between spellcasting and multiclassing
due to the "quadratic wizards vs. linear fighters" phenomenon, a martial class can general multiclass fairly easily. However, since multiclassing out of a spellcasting class leads to a quadratic dropoff in power, it is a very poor move to do so. You lose spell levels, which are key

2. Fighters don't get nice things
Fighters, and martial builds in general, do not offer a proper scaling of abilities in high levels. They are left with few recourses to counter spells at high levels.

3. Theurges need specialty prestige classes, and even then don't work quite right
This is related to point number 1. A theurge is a mixture of two spellcasting classes. Simply making a 10 wizard/10 cleric yeilds an extremly poor character. You need a class, like mystic theurge, that advanced both in parrallel. At low levels, you are a mixed caster, and it doesn't work well. at mide levels, you have the theurge pretige class to elevate you, so you climb in power faster, and eventually reach a state that is arguably functional, trading raw spell power for more flexibility and spells per day. Then, unless you can find another prestige class, you can only advance the casting of one, and the other falls behind. Its a mess.

4. Gish builds rely on special prestige classes to mix their martial and spellcasting abilities.
This is similar to the theurge issue. Instead of being able to effectively multiclass a fighter and a wizard to make a gish, you need to find special prestige classes to advance spellcasting while maintaining martial skill.
rule set

1. BCB
the Base Caster Bonus, or BCB, is analogous to the BAB for martial characters. Even a spellcaster gains BaB as they level. Correspondingly, even martial classes gain BCB when they level.

Spellcasters gain a full BCB progression, gaining a BCB every level
half casters(like paladins and rangers) gain a BCB on 3/4 of the levels
non-casters have a 1/2 BCB progression


BCB is used in place of caster level for all purposes. Hence, a level 20 wizard has a BCB, and hence a caster level of 20, as you would normally expect. However, a level 10 fighter/level 10 wizard has a BCB of 15 (10 from wizard, 5 from fighter), and hence casts spells with an effective caster level of 15.

2. Spells per day
A character gets the spells per day of a caster of their level, multiplied by the percentage of their levels that are of that casting class. The minimum spells per day of a given level is 0 for the highest level spells, and 1 for any spell level that you would have had for 2 levels (so a 20th level fighter will have 1 spell per day of each level). This minimum amount of spells per day is satisfied if any class would grant that many spells. A 19th level wizard/1st level cleric would not receive 1 cleric spell of each level because they already have a wizard spell of each level.

So, a 20th level wizard has 4 spells per day of each level, as normal. A 10th level wizard/10th level fighter would have 2 spells per day of each level.

If you have a partial spell for a given level, you may combine it with a partial spell of a lower level to create a new spell per day of that lower level. So if the class would normally grant 5 spells per day of level 3 and 2, and you have half the caster levels, you end up with 2.5 spells at level 3 and 2. You can turn this into 3 2nd level spells and 2 3rd level spells.

Additional spells/day, such as from a cleric's domain or a wizard's specialization, also combine like this, but they must combine with like spellslots. So a 10th level wizard/10th level cleric could get a bonus domain spell slot for levels 2, 4, 6, 8, and a bonus specialty school spell slot for 2, 4, 6, 8

alternatively, if you have partial spells of a given level in 2 different classes, you can combine them to form a single spell slot of one class. So, the 10/10 wizard cleric can combine his half domain spells with his half specialty spells to get a bonus domain or specialty spell at each level.

A non-caster must choose a spellcasting class to emulate. They use this class to determine the baseline for their spell per day, spell list, casting stat, and method of preperation. If you later take a level in a different casting class, your emulated class is irrelevant.

Mixing casting classes:
Mixing two casting classes is additive. You will have the BCB progression of both, and spells per day based on the proportion of each. For instance, a 10th level wizard/10th level cleric will have a BCB of 20, and 2 wizard spells per day of each level, 2 cleric spells per day of each level. As mentioned above, they will also get a bonus spell slot at each level that can be spent on a domain spell or a specialty school spell, and an extra 4th and 2nd level cleric spell.

Bonus spells:
you get bonus spells/day from your primary casting stat as normal, even if you are a noncaster. If you have more than one casting class, you only get bonus spells from one stat, but you may assign those bonus spells for either class. You decide on the assignment whenever you get a new bonus spell, and it cannot be changed. However, you cannot assign more bonus spells to another class that you would normally get for its primary casting stat.

For instance, if you have a 1 int and are a wizard/cleric, you have 2 bonus spells of levels 1 and 2, and 1 bonus spell of levels 3,4,5,6. You could assign a bonus cleric spell of level 1,2, 4, and 6, and a bonus wizard spell of level 1, 2, 3, and 5. If this character only had a wisdom of 12, then thy could only assign 1 1st level bonus spell to cleric, and the rest must be wizard spells.

spells known:
for any given class, the spells known, if applicable, are treated as if you were a caste of your character level. Hence, a sorcerer 10/fighter 10 has the same spells known as a sorcerer 20, as would a sorcerer-aligned fighter 20.

half casters:
paladin's, ranger's, and other half casters get a caster level boost from this system. They also get an emulated caster class, druid for rangers and cleric for paladin. In addition to their class-based casting, they get the same casting progression in their emulated class that a non-caster would.


prestige classes:
Any class with a caster level requirement should be replaces with a BCB requirement. If a class specifies (ability to cast X level spells), then it should come with a BCB requirement based on what caster level would be needed to cast that level spell normally.

any single-class prestige class should work just fine with this system, gaining a BCB according to the above rules. Classes without casting get 1/2 BCB, classes with their own spell list get 3/4 BCB. If it is a short list, then they can retain their emulated class in addition to it, if it is a full spell list they get its progression instead. These classes may need to be allowed on a case-by case basis.
If a class advances spellcasting, then its levels stack with the base class for determining the percentage of levels to determine spells per day, and would have a full BCB. If it only advanced spellcasting on certain levels, then only those levels stack to determine the percentage.

Theurge and gish classes need modification. Since some offer ways to blend the abilities of the seperate classes, I don't want to throw them out completely. Instead, they should half their stacking ability. More instance, a mystic theurge would stack half its levels with cleric and half its levels with wizard to determine the allocation of spells per day. This makes mystic theurge rather pointless, but that is the intent. Something like Eldritch theurge that offers abilities to mix class abilities is more in line with what is intended. Instead of taking some other prestige class, you are taking a prestige class to heighten the mixture of your classes. Or, for gish-based builds, you are learning new ways to combine the two classes, gaining the ability to ignore spell failure chance for armor, for instance. The innate ability for the two classes to stack removes the need to advance both fully, and should be reduced to the equivalent multiclass combination for the advancement, trading the base classes features for the feature of the prestige class.

Metamagic:
This isn't really part of this variant, but I figured that while I'm altering things, I may as well include this revision. I find it to be a very helpful balancing factor.

When using any metamagic cost reduction, other than a rod, you cannot cast an effective spell level higher than you could normally cast.

So, even if you are using divine metamagic to make the +6 cost for persistant spell free, you can't cast persistant divine power unless you could normally cast a 10th level spell. You could use it to cast a persistent shield of faith out of a 1st level spell slot instead of a 7th level spell slot, assuming you could cast 7th level spells to start with.

This makes metamagic reduction useful, but cuts short most of the broken combos that let people cast level 25 spells.

Examples and analysis

Since every class has some ability to cast spells, they can utilize them to make themselves more potent at higher levels. Their spell selection will probably be complimentary to their own class abilities. This helps bridge the gap between spellcasters and martial characters. The full spellcasters are, of course, much better at it.

Not taking casting classes now has a linear tradeoff, instead of the quadratic one it used to. This allows you to mix caster with other characters in various combinations, or even to mix different casting classes. a wizard/cleric hybrid is a viable character build by itself, and functions at all levels. they have full caster level and spell level, but their spells per day are divided. This progression is maintainable at all levels, they don't suffer from the roller coaster power curve of a theurge. While they do gain considerable flexibility in spell access, this is offset by the smaller pool of spells per day, limiting their ability to leverage them. It also introduces some degree of MAD, which also helps limit them.

A canny reader may notice that this allows fighters to qualify for many caster classes, since they gain the ability to cast spells. This is intended. A wizard is capable of qualifying for martial classes by taking more levels to gain the extra BaB, and so a fighter can qualify for spellcasting prestige classes by taking more levels.

Since everyone gets spellcasting, it makes more sense for a magic-rich setting.
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So, thoughts, comments? Anything strike you are particularly exploitable or unreasonable? Is anything unclear?

missmvicious
2012-01-14, 12:24 PM
Most of our house rules tend to nerf the caster rather than buff the tanks. In the end, it's been a cleaner, safer, and simpler repair to balancing the system. Imho, it's not necessary to give the casters nicer things. They already get that by being a caster.

And turning brutes into casters is a bit redundant. They already have PrCs that do that. And Clerics are already good martial PCs with great casting ability Although the idea of an Arcane Cleric (Cleric with Arcane spell slots instead of Divine spell slots) sounds kind of cool... but I digress.

I'm not really qualified to offer ways to fix the martial classes, since I don't play around with them often, but it seems logical to me to only give them more of what they already have, while giving casters less of what they already have:

Some Example Bones to Throw to the Martial Classes:
1. Feats: can't have too many of those.
2. Skill Points: always nice.
3. BAB: a popular fix.
4. Starting Gear: just double it, or triple it even. A Fighter is only as good as her weapon.
5. HP: that's what their there for--to get beat up while casters stay back and win the fight.
6. Bonus Levels: Let them skip levels. When it's time for them to hit L2, let them build an L3 instead, then L5, L7, so on as long as they don't add on a caster class. I'm not sure if this would OP the non-caster classes or not... but maybe they're due. :smallwink:

Some Example Penalties to Throw to the Caster Classes:
1. Feats: They're going to miss those Feats, even ban some of the game-breaker ones.
2. HP: Deadly at a range, but dead in one hit if a Fighter can get in close.
3. Spells/Level: Fewer spells = Less Nova moments.
4. Spell Level Limits: 9th Level Spells are game breakers anyway.
5. Spell Component Consumption: Especially interesting if Eschew Materials is a banned feat. Make a spell pouch carry only 10 spells worth of components. Then watch them sweat when they're still 2 days from the nearest town, and down to one Component.

I'm not saying use all of these. But maybe one, two, or three of these can help balance the system a little.

The Spell Component Consumption house-rule is a new one we tried recently. We broke it by taking Eschew Materials, but I think the rule has potential if that Feat is removed. If the casters run out of components and need to cast a spell with a Component Cost, you could allow them to forage for supplies if they have someone with ranks in Survival do a Survival check, but that may make the game tedious instead of fun. Instead just say, "The Components are made a special way, dried, and aged. You have to buy them at Alchemical Shops," to end that argument instead.

Mystify
2012-01-14, 12:44 PM
I am mainly trying to address the fact that you can' reasonable do anything with a caster, other than be a full caster. It is interesting to play a rouge with arcane spells, or the monk that casts spells along with their martial skill, or the cleric/wizard hybrid, but the system is basically incompatible with it. You need specialty classes to do it, and hence you have to spend your prestige classes on the theurge-classes. Instead of a generic system to combine things like you have with the martial classes, you need specific patches to allow it.

This is not intended to improve casters. A pure caster will be equally as strong in the core system as this system. What it allows is impure casters to be viable. I always thought that playing a hybrid wizard/sorcerer would be interesting, but with the system as-is, you HAVE to take ultimate magus to pull that off, and it still doesn't work that great.

I think its better to have a system that lets you naturally create a gish or a theurge without having to use prestige classes. Intuitively, if you want to create a warrior that boosts themselves with magic, you multiclass a wizard and a fighter. In practice, that just ends up an unusable mess. You have to take a prestige class to blend them.

The wizard gains BaB 10 by 20th level. That is the same base martial skill as a 10th level fighter. Sure, they may not be equipped to leverage it as well, but the base ability is there. Just by virtue of being a high level character, they have picked up considerable martial prowess. Even though they have spent all their time reading books and flinging fireballs. This turns that around and lets the fighter do the same with magic. They are not the most powerful casters around. They have just picked up a bit of magic by virtue of going out and adventuring for ages.

missmvicious
2012-01-14, 12:55 PM
I'm pretty sure that's not true. I've seen tons of Gish builds on this board... all of them god-killers by L10. I've also gotten build advice for a Divine/Arcane caster before. I ended up not using it, but it was a good build.

You just need to post a build advice thread. I think you can have what you're looking for that way.

Mystify
2012-01-14, 12:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that's not true. I've seen tons of Gish builds on this board... all of them god-killers by L10. I've also gotten build advice for a Divine/Arcane caster before. I ended up not using it, but it was a good build.

You just need to post a build advice thread. I think you can have what you're looking for that way.
Without any prestige classes? I've designed plenty of gishes and theurges, but they all were highly reliant on prestige classes to advance both aspects.

Randomguy
2012-01-14, 12:58 PM
Your BCB system just makes casters stronger. Casters don't need to get stronger.

Your spells per day system gives EVERYONE ninth level spells, which are the most broken in the game. Even a level 20 commoner would be able to cast shapechange, or gate. People even have spells that they shouldn't have the caster level to cast, since a level 7 fighter can cast fireball with a caster level of 3.
The system itself also seems convoluted and hard to understand. For example, you made it so that taking a level in cleric at level 19 doesn't give any cleric spell casting, but taking a level in sorcerer at level 19 gives you all sorcerer spells known, which is great for cleric 19/sorcerer 1 but terrible for sorcerer 19/cleric 1.


Without any prestige classes? I've designed plenty of gishes and theurges, but they all were highly reliant on prestige classes to advance both aspects.
Yes, but that's the point of these prestige classes. If you want to make a skillgish build with wizard and rogue, you've got thousands of ways to do it because of prestige classes. What do you have against prestige classes?
And in fact it IS possible to gish without PrC's. The beguiler, spellthief and to a small extent factotum all mix casting and stealth. The mystic ranger, duskblade, hexblade and battle sorcerer are all base classes that mix casting with melee. All this without any prestige classes.
The SOTAO mystic ranger mixes arcane, divine, stealth, and combat ability, so you can even do all of those things at once without any prestige classes.

Mystify
2012-01-14, 01:20 PM
Your BCB system just makes casters stronger. Casters don't need to get stronger.

Your spells per day system gives EVERYONE ninth level spells, which are the most broken in the game. Even a level 20 commoner would be able to cast shapechange, or gate. People even have spells that they shouldn't have the caster level to cast, since a level 7 fighter can cast fireball with a caster level of 3.
The system itself also seems convoluted and hard to understand. For example, you made it so that taking a level in cleric at level 19 doesn't give any cleric spell casting, but taking a level in sorcerer at level 19 gives you all sorcerer spells known, which is great for cleric 19/sorcerer 1 but terrible for sorcerer 19/cleric 1.

It does far more to boost everyone else than to help casters. It makes it viable to mix spellcasting in any arbitrary build.

Yes, there is a critical threshold below which multiclassing into a spellcasting class doesn't make sense. Generally speaking, you need more than 1/4 of your class levels to be caster levels to have them rise to relevance. Not taking the last level of cleric on a cleric 19 build would give you 19/20 casting, which would hurt your spells per day. The level of sorcerer would give you the spells known, but you wouldn't have any spells per day to use them with. I specifically designed it so you can't do a 1 level dip to get anything meaningful from the class. On the continuum of sorcerer/cleric mixes, pure sorcerer and pure cleric act as normal, a 75/25 mix will give you a few spells per day of one while having a focus in one, and a 50/50 mix will split your spells per day in half for each class.

I think this is a more balanced system across the entire leveling sequence than the theurge classes offer. Its cleaner to build.

It does seem funny that any sorcerer ability would give you all the spells known as a full sorcerer, but I couldn't think of another way to do it that wouldn't support wizards as the only viable arcane class to use. Wizards don't have the limit on spells known, you can fill their spellbook with as many spells as you want. If the highest spell level is fixed, your spell selection does not suffer from not taking wizard levels. A sorcerer that only has access to 1/2 the spells known because they are half cleric would take the hit much, much harder than a wizard would.

And sure, the 20th level commoner may have a single 9th level spell, assuming he has the 19 casting stat to use it. But what is a 20th level commoner? Really, I struggle to comprehend how that makes sense. However, if it did make sense, I think they would have just as much claim to the 9th level spell as the 20th level fighter.

It may help you to think of it this way:
The ability to cast spells is based on HD. Whatever abstract quality a HD represents ingame, it is the same thing as base spellcasting potential. Hence, you need 18HD of awesomeness to be able to utilize 9th level spells. IF you have that, and have the 19 stat to access it, you can cast it. Spellcasters devote themselves to studying this ability, and leverage it more effectively, more often, and hence are better at it.

And if everyone has 9th level spells, they are more balanced compared to each other than if only the wizards have them.

as for the complexity, its actually fairly straightforward. Its just kinda wordy to explain, and requires a little bit more though for multiclasses casters, but its pretty easy to implement. I'm basically trying to linearize effect of caster levels.

missmvicious
2012-01-14, 01:47 PM
What do you have against prestige classes?

I agree with this sentiment. You can build what you want without them, yet you can also build an even more powerful version of it with them. Plus you don't suffer XP penalties when multi-classing with PrCs. Or, perhaps that's why you don't like PrCs? Are they too OP? Game-breaking? If that's the case, I can see the frustration.

At any rate, I think I see where you're going with your house-rules. But I worry that you're going to make the game "beige" that way. Once everyone is a caster who can punch things, there will be no real difference between the builds, and therefore no flavor for the campaign. At that point, you can simplify the house-rule even more by saying, "All classes except Clerics and Druids are banned." That way, no one in your group needs to learn a new build system.

I think a better fix is to give everyone a niche to fill. Punchers should be good at punching, archers should be good at archery, casters should be good at casting, healers should be good at healing, and skill monkeys should be good at... skilling? monkeying? :smallconfused: Either way, a good fix would focus on bringing out the best features of each class rather than to morph them all into one generic gish build.

Mystify
2012-01-14, 02:17 PM
I agree with this sentiment. You can build what you want without them, yet you can also build an even more powerful version of it with them. Plus you don't suffer XP penalties when multi-classing with PrCs. Or, perhaps that's why you don't like PrCs? Are they too OP? Game-breaking? If that's the case, I can see the frustration.

At any rate, I think I see where you're going with your house-rules. But I worry that you're going to make the game "beige" that way. Once everyone is a caster who can punch things, there will be no real difference between the builds, and therefore no flavor for the campaign. At that point, you can simplify the house-rule even more by saying, "All classes except Clerics and Druids are banned." That way, no one in your group needs to learn a new build system.

I think a better fix is to give everyone a niche to fill. Punchers should be good at punching, archers should be good at archery, casters should be good at casting, healers should be good at healing, and skill monkeys should be good at... skilling? monkeying? :smallconfused: Either way, a good fix would focus on bringing out the best features of each class rather than to morph them all into one generic gish build.
I reject the notion that a prestige class should be required for a basic combination of two classes. If I want a fighter barabrian, I can simply multiclass a fighter and a barbarian. I don't need to find the raging warrior prestige class to make the combination stick. Or a barbarian rouge. I can simply combine barbarian and rouge, and end up with a viable character. However, as soon as you want to multiclass a caster, you suddenly need a prestige class to make it work.

And many of the theurge prestige classes do not provide a satisfactory balance over every level. In fact, I'm not sure they are properly balanced at any level. Nor do they allow for much variation. If you are making a cleric/wizard theurge. there is not much room to focus on one aspect of the other. With my system, you can be the 5 level sorcerer/15 level cleric, and give up a bit of your cleric to mix in some sorcerer without going into a full 50/50 mix. You could have a 15 level sorcerer 5 level wizard, who is primarily concerned with their sorcerer spellcasting, but can access a few more utility spells at the cost of less prepared slots.

Don't get me wrong, I like prestige classes. I just don't think they are the right answer to multiclassing casters.

I don't think this will make everyone generic. Just the opposite, it opens up more opens for them to utilize. Take a base fighter, for instance. At a high level, I could be a cleric-emulating fighter, focusing on some minor self-buffs and healing, a druid-emulating fighter, focused on summoning backup when needed, a sorcerer-emulating fighter, able to pull out useful debuffs, or a wizard-emulating fighter, who has a spellbook of nifty utility abilities he can call upon. Or a sorcerer-fighter who uses spells to set up barriers and vision obsuring things to keep themselves the front-line target. Or how about a beguiler/rouge that focuses on invisibility and teleportation?

The non-caster classes will not have enough spells per day to rely on their spellcasting, but it gives them a baseline set of spells to take advantage of. If you want a more gish-centered style, actually taking levels becomes more important. You can mix spellcasting abilities, so you could play a cleric/druid(I can't even think of a prestige class for that combination), a sorcerer/wizard, or some other arbitrary mixture.