adding maneuvers to core characters? pirate campaign

[Kol Korran]

(i posted this in the regular roleplay forum, but it was suggested i move it here, so...)

hi there. in developing a pirate campaign i've been considering the Tome of battle... i want to include maneuvers in the campaign, but i wanted to do something a little different than usual, and i wanted your thoughts, critics and info.
it is still being built and adjusted, but the basics are as follows:

1) classes: there is more or less clear definition between the islanders culture (from which the PCs hail) and the Empire tradition (a sort of advanced colonial force) and the far traders (we won't get into that now). that division comes to effect in many aspects, including equipment, races, and even classes.

the islanders' classes can be divided to witch classes (mostly spontaneous casters and similar- sorcerers, warlock, binders, favored souls, bard and the like) and the martial classes, which are the barbarian, monk, ranger and scoundrel (rogue mixed with swashbuckler). all 4 races have quite a few opportunities of ACF, and have been adjusted both in flavor and mechanics to fit the world.

2) i want to add some sort of a maneuver mechanic to these 4 classes. the main reason is to give them more options, and make them somewhat more fun. (more than "i hit again")

3) the actual rules (so far): (rationalization in red)
All the non witch classes get access to maneuvers and stances (for Maneuvers known). However, there are differences from the tome of battle. The copy pasted table (the swordsages progression) show the maneuvers known and stances known. Readied maneuvers are not used in this campaign. Abilities do not increase the known maneuvers or stances. DCs are based on Either Wis or Int, at your choosing.

I've chosen the sword sage's table to enable many maneuvers known. i think of the islanders as wily, resourceful, with many tricks up their sleeves.

the player disliked the "readied maneuvers/ encounter" mechanic, so i try to find something more akin with what they know- see next

At first levels you can use maneuvers 6+ Con modifier times a day. Barbarians don't get extra maneuvers when raging. Each level you gain in a mundane class adds you 1 more daily maneuver use. (But not new maneuvers! Those are by the table) multi classing doesn't get you new maneuvers or the 6+con extra uses. It just gets you access to new disciplines, by the class levels. You may choose your new known maneuver (by the table) in these disciplines.

so it will be a bit like spontaneous maneuver casting. the uses/ day may seem a bit low, but:
- they can use their high level maneuvers with this all the way.
- this is in addition to their normal class abilities, not their main shtick (like the regular tome of battle characters are)
balanced? thoughts? other ideas of progression?

Each time you get a new maneuver level, you can change a previous maneuver to any level you have, including the new one! (this will lead to having at mid- high levels 3 maneuvers of the highest levels you have.)

After using a maneuver, you can't use it for 2 rounds. After that, it's accessible again

this is as a safety of spamming one really powerful maneuver over and over again... not sure it's a good enough safety measure.

4) the disciplines
Barb: Devoted spirit, Tiger claw, Stone dragon, white raven
Monk: Devoted spirit, diamond mind, setting sun, stone dragon
Ranger: diamond mind, iron heart, Tiger Claw, stone dragon (i really need some sort of ranged maneuvers as well)
Scoundrel: diamond mind, iron heart, setting sun, white raven

my questions regarding this:

- how strong will my suggested mechanics make these classes? compared to regular tome of battle classes? compared to the witch classes?

- do you think it is fun?

- do you think the disciplines fit the classes?

thanks in advance,
Kol.


Search word: piratewitch

[DonDuckie]

my questions regarding this:

- how strong will my suggested mechanics make these classes? compared to regular tome of battle classes? compared to the witch classes?

It will give them more options in combat, but as far as tiers go, not much will change.

I think Barbarian should have Iron Heart.(repeated later)
I think Monk should have WIS extra maneuvers known from any school. They are quite MAD those monks. And give them full BAB.
I don't know if you already allow this. But I would let the Ranger exchange maneuvers for the wildshape ACF. Or if they still have spells exchange those. But spells don't seem to fit.
I have a hard time evaluating the scoundrel, so I will just leave that.



- do you think it is fun?
Yes, very much. It sounds absolutely awesome!


- do you think the disciplines fit the classes?
my suggestions:
Barb: Devoted spirit, Tiger claw, Stone dragon, iron heart
Monk: Devoted spirit, diamond mind, desert wind, setting sun
Ranger: setting sun, Tiger Claw, stone dragon, white raven
Scoundrel: diamond mind, shadow hand, white raven, iron heart(not sure)

I would make a unique discipline for each(except Ranger, for which I still favor wildshape ACF, and I think that is unique enough)



(i really need some sort of ranged maneuvers as well)

IIRC maneuvers were very(if not exclusively) melee.

You could consider the Shaman class (miniatures handbook I think) it's spontaneus from druid spell list and can change spells known daily.

[Prime32]

Mainly, this sounds strange from a fluff/disassociated mechanics perspective. I find the readying thing weird myself, and just let warblades/swordsages treat all known maneuvers as readied at the start of an encounter.

Have you considered any other mechanics, like the ones for breath weapons? (at will, but wait 1d4 rounds before you can use them again)

[playswithfire]

Have you considered any other mechanics, like the ones for breath weapons? (at will, but wait 1d4 rounds before you can use them again) Or perhaps just something like the Recharge Magic rules, so that lower level maneuvers recover more quickly than high level ones. Though I also don't see why the normal readied maneuvers/recovery mechanics rules are problematic, particularly if you just give everyone Adaptive Style for free.


the islanders' classes can be divided to witch classes (mostly spontaneous casters and similar- sorcerers, warlock, binders, favored souls, bard and the like) and the martial classes, which are the barbarian, monk, ranger and scoundrel (rogue mixed with swashbuckler). all 4 races have quite a few opportunities of ACF, and have been adjusted both in flavor and mechanics to fit the world. Does scoundrel refer to this scoundrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227772), or just a rogue 4/swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw, or something else?


2) i want to add some sort of a maneuver mechanic to these 4 classes. the main reason is to give them more options, and make them somewhat more fun. (more than "i hit again")

the disciplines
Barb: Devoted spirit, Tiger claw, Stone dragon, white raven
Monk: Devoted spirit, diamond mind, setting sun, stone dragon
Ranger: diamond mind, iron heart, Tiger Claw, stone dragon (i really need some sort of ranged maneuvers as well)
Scoundrel: diamond mind, iron heart, setting sun, white raven

- do you think the disciplines fit the classes?
To get the obvious out of the way, you could replace monk with the unarmed swordsage variant out of the way, or just let the monk pick any 4 of the swordsage's disciplines.
I might also swap iron heart and devoted spirit between the barbarian and the ranger. I understand the barbarian having devoted spirit for the "I never fall down" aspect of the discipline, but the healing aspect of it fits the ranger better and the "peak athleticism" aspect of Iron Heart fits the barbarian well.

If you're willing to entertain homebrew, the Tome of Tactics link in my signature includes a class called the Huntsman which was my attempt to make a ToB style Ranger with a Barbarian-like adaptation. It also includes a discipline (Life's Blood) that fits wilderness classes well, a grappling discipline (Giant's Grip) that I think fits the monk and possibly the barbarian, and links to a mounted discipline (Twin Spirit) and an archery discipline (Iron Rain) that might be useful.

[Kol Korran]

It will give them more options in combat, but as far as tiers go, not much will change.

I think Barbarian should have Iron Heart.(repeated later)
I think Monk should have WIS extra maneuvers known from any school. They are quite MAD those monks. And give them full BAB.
I don't know if you already allow this. But I would let the Ranger exchange maneuvers for the wildshape ACF. Or if they still have spells exchange those. But spells don't seem to fit.
I have a hard time evaluating the scoundrel, so I will just leave that.



- i'll reread the Iron Heart discipline. it felt more "controlled and percise fighting" than the barbarian's style (or so i perceive)
- Monks already get full BAB in my campaign. the extra "wis maneuvers" will give them 2-4 extra maneuvers, from 1st level... is that such a big deal? :smallconfused:
- shapeshifters of any kind are REALLY rare in this campaign setting. (no druids BTW). the ranger won't be a shapeshifter, it just doesn't fit (and my players haven't shown any inclination towards shapeshifting other than for infiltration purposes). they have other variants instead of spells.



my suggestions:
Barb: Devoted spirit, Tiger claw, Stone dragon, iron heart
Monk: Devoted spirit, diamond mind, desert wind, setting sun
Ranger: setting sun, Tiger Claw, stone dragon, white raven
Scoundrel: diamond mind, shadow hand, white raven, iron heart(not sure)
i'll consider these (need to read the disciplines again) i am deliberatly avoiding the more "magical" themed disciplines like desert wind and shadow hand, since these are supposed to be more "mundane" classes. the maneuvers represent inner power/ resolve/ skill and the like.


I would make a unique discipline for each(except Ranger, for which I still favor wildshape ACF, and I think that is unique enough)
what do you mean "make a unique discipline? homebrew one? not sure i'm up for that at the moment. balance is NOT my strong point.


You could consider the Shaman class (miniatures handbook I think) it's spontaneus from druid spell list and can change spells known daily.
the spirit shaman? from complete divine. it's already one of the magical (AKA witch) classes. probably the strongest one along with binders (which we'll test in this game)


Mainly, this sounds strange from a fluff/disassociated mechanics perspective. I find the readying thing weird myself, and just let warblades/swordsages treat all known maneuvers as readied at the start of an encounter.

Have you considered any other mechanics, like the ones for breath weapons? (at will, but wait 1d4 rounds before you can use them again)

i don't quite get what you mean by the emphasized "this"- do you mean the original rules sound strange, or my potential rules? the idea is that each one has the ability to perform certain feats (not the game term) that exert themselves to a degree (hence the limited times per day) from disciplines they know.

i specifically want to avoid recharge/ delay ideas to avoid certain abuses we've seen in our last campaign, mostly out of combat (such as with Shadow Jaunt) when the power became available after but 5 minutes. another reason was to put everyone on similar mechanics (not some with powers who recharge every encounter, and others with powers/ day)

but i'm quite willing to hear ideas- how would a game with such delay/recharge mechanics differ? in terms of balance and fun?


Or perhaps just something like the Recharge Magic rules, so that lower level maneuvers recover more quickly than high level ones. Though I also don't see why the normal readied maneuvers/recovery mechanics rules are problematic, particularly if you just give everyone Adaptive Style for free.

we had a swordsage in our campaign and he dominated as hell. maneuvers here, there, and with various "not necesserily combative" maneuvers he was able to cause some serious abuse out of combat as well. this was our first TOB character, and we're not that of an optimized group, so perhaps those are relvent factors. the party (player included) felt that the "full maneuvers every encounter" mechanic was way over powered.

so they dislike TOB, but i think it can bring a lot to the game, hence this rule adjustment.


Does scoundrel refer to this scoundrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227772), or just a rogue 4/swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw, or something else?
actually, is is based on the daring outlaw (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188150) with a few changes (mainly not the lucky aspect).



To get the obvious out of the way, you could replace monk with the unarmed swordsage variant out of the way, or just let the monk pick any 4 of the swordsage's disciplines.

As stated above, i'm trying to build the TOB mechanics on allready accepted and approved chassis, and due to the swordsage experience, i'll stay away from that.

i'll consider about the monk picking from any 4 disciplines, though as stated far above- i'm trying to stay away from the more "magical" disciplines such as desert wind and shadow hand, and leave that to the magical places. the maneuvers should mostly feel like feats of expertise, resolve and the like. not magic.


I might also swap iron heart and devoted spirit between the barbarian and the ranger. I understand the barbarian having devoted spirit for the "I never fall down" aspect of the discipline, but the healing aspect of it fits the ranger better and the "peak athleticism" aspect of Iron Heart fits the barbarian well.

hhhmmmm.... i'll consider this, TOB is new to me as well.


If you're willing to entertain homebrew, the Tome of Tactics link in my signature includes a class called the Huntsman which was my attempt to make a ToB style Ranger with a Barbarian-like adaptation. It also includes a discipline (Life's Blood) that fits wilderness classes well, a grappling discipline (Giant's Grip) that I think fits the monk and possibly the barbarian, and links to a mounted discipline (Twin Spirit) and an archery discipline (Iron Rain) that might be useful.

these i will look into definitely (allready started with the Iron Rain). have they been play tested yet?

[DonDuckie]

- i'll reread the Iron Heart discipline. it felt more "controlled and percise fighting" than the barbarian's style (or so i perceive)
- Monks already get full BAB in my campaign. the extra "wis maneuvers" will give them 2-4 extra maneuvers, from 1st level... is that such a big deal? :smallconfused:
- shapeshifters of any kind are REALLY rare in this campaign setting. (no druids BTW). the ranger won't be a shapeshifter, it just doesn't fit (and my players haven't shown any inclination towards shapeshifting other than for infiltration purposes). they have other variants instead of spells.

The extra WIS maneuvers is not a big thing, but the "any discipline" for these might be enjoyable.

No shapeshifter, got it...:smallwink:


i'll consider these (need to read the disciplines again) i am deliberatly avoiding the more "magical" themed disciplines like desert wind and shadow hand, since these are supposed to be more "mundane" classes. the maneuvers represent inner power/ resolve/ skill and the like.

I haven't looked at disciplines in a while, so I may not remember themes correctly.

for the magical themed disciplines: maybe just ban maneuvers on case-by-case basis. They just each have some nice stuff.


what do you mean "make a unique discipline? homebrew one? not sure i'm up for that at the moment. balance is NOT my strong point.

Not homebrew, just let them have one standard discipline that the other classes can't access without feat or monk bonus.

BTW: I usually don't care about balance, especially not at the cost of awesome.


the spirit shaman? from complete divine. it's already one of the magical (AKA witch) classes. probably the strongest one along with binders (which we'll test in this game)

I checked my books. Yep, that's the one. It's (close to) tier 1.

[Prime32]

- i'll reread the Iron Heart discipline. it felt more "controlled and percise fighting" than the barbarian's style (or so i perceive)
Absolute Steel: Fast movement 10ft
Iron Heart Endurance: Ignore hp damage through willpower
Iron Heart Focus: Reroll saving throws through willpower
Iron Heart Surge: Row row, fight the power
Punishing Stance: Enter a state where you deal more damage but take a -2 penalty to AC.
Scything Blade: Basically an improved Cleave
Steel Wind: Basically PF Cleave
Steely Strike: Get so angry at one guy that you forget the others
Supreme Blade Parry: DR 5/-
Lightning Throw: Throw your sword so that it beheads a line of enemies

They copied some class features outright. :smalltongue:


i don't quite get what you mean by the emphasized "this"- do you mean the original rules sound strange, or my potential rules? the idea is that each one has the ability to perform certain feats (not the game term) that exert themselves to a degree (hence the limited times per day) from disciplines they know.The potential rules. There are rules for exertion already, so it comes across something like this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=615). "You are too tired to charge but not too tired to run. You are too tired to swing your sword vertically but not too tired to Power Attack. You are too tired to hit two enemies with one blow but not too tired to hit two enemies with one blow."


i specifically want to avoid recharge/ delay ideas to avoid certain abuses we've seen in our last campaign, mostly out of combat (such as with Shadow Jaunt) when the power became available after but 5 minutes.What happened exactly?

[playswithfire]

these i will look into definitely (allready started with the Iron Rain). have they been play tested yet?

Giant's grip has had the most play testing since it predates tome of tactics. If Setting Sun is ok, 98% of Giant's Grip should be too. It chan make the character a very effective grappler but only so many things can be effectively grappled to begin with. Life's blood has been used in a few games and has seemed fairly balanced, though the healing maneuvers, if used with standard ToB rules, can heal everyone up out of combat without finding a cleric, but that can also be done with devoted spirit. A lot of its bonus damage is skirmish damage, which can be useful, but some things are, of course, immune to it as it is precision based. Iron rain and twin spirit I personally haven't play tested much, but I'be heard good things from people who used iron rain. Most of those were with the huntsman.

Keep in mind that the huntsman was designed to be solid Tier 3, on par with the standard ToB classes, which may not be what you want based on your sword sage experience.