Class Power by Level

[Ancient Mage]

It becomes quickly apparent to all veteran D&D players that certain classes are mechanically weaker at lower levels (assuming low to mid levels of optimization) than are other classes. Some soar at high levels, whereas other classes trudge along.
I have taken JaronK's original tier system, and tried to find the math behind it to the best of my ability. With the math mostly accurate, I have plotted the classes (most to least powerful) by certain levels.

1st level: Druid, Monk, Ranger, Cleric, Barbarian, Wizard, Fighter, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer

5th level: Druid, Monk, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian, Fighter, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Sorcerer

10th level: Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, Sorcerer, Bard, Fighter, Paladin

15th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Monk, Sorcerer, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Fighter, Rogue

20th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Monk, Sorcerer, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Fighter, Rogue

These numbers are the mechanical features of the classes, not including optimization, non-core rulebooks, etc. It is based off of JaronK's Tier system, mathematically, with a focus on versatility and power.

So give me your thoughts on the system, tell me what you think, what's wrong, what's correct, etc. Remember, this used only the core rulebooks, so don't come saying that an option in Libris Mortis increases the cleric by at least 2 spots, please. Any input is appreciated.

-Ancient Mage

[sreservoir]

the fact that you consider monk > sorcerer at 20 is ... odd, to say the least.

[Snowbluff]

the fact that you consider monk > sorcerer at 20 is ... odd, to say the least.

For some reason Monk is ever considered better than Fighter.

[gkathellar]

Monk doesn't belong in the #2 spot at 1st level, much less 5th. Frankly, I have no clue why you're rating it so high. At early levels it's a worse fighter, and at late level its just the worst period.

Rangers are not better than Sorcerers. Or bards. In core only, they're not even really better than barbarians.

Wizards definitely outclass druids and clerics by 15th, if not by 10th.

I would keep going, but I would just have to write up my own version to give it the full estimate. Suffice it to say that this list is wildly inaccurate at almost every level benchmark.

[GoatBoy]

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/12/12916/13226492.jpg

[Ancient Mage]

I Know, I redid the math over and over again. If I take out certain aspects of the math for the monk, then it will drastically destroy many other classes. The monk class is obviously a hard class to eke power out of, and I agree that it should not be so far up.
It's probably the improved evasion, mountain of special abilities (wholeness of body, quivering palm, etc.) and in particular, the 3 good saves, that make the class so high up. The mathematical advantage from 3 good saves is very high, also propelling some 2 save classes (like Ranger) into high slots.
I do not know JaronK's method of deciding upon tiers, but I can surmise that it's main focus was versatility, and it was not 100% mathematical.

-Ancient Mage

[dextercorvia]

Monk is way too far to the left at levels 1 and 5(especially 5 -- who takes more than two levels of monk?)

At level 1, Barbarian should be to the left of Ranger. The skills of the Ranger won't really come into play for a while. Even at mid-op, Wizard should be to the left of any non caster. Maybe this has to do with your playstyle, but unless the wizard prepares all Magic Aura, this is true even in low op.

At mid-high levels, Wizard moves to the left of Cleric and eventually Druid. His spell list is that good. Cleric is really only better than Wizard at level 5 if DMM, or some of the other options are on the table, and I doubt that you consider that mid-op.

Sorcerer, likewise might be outshined by a good melee at level 1, but will quickly surpass the rest.

A poorly optimized bard is a terrible thing, but still outshines melee by level 5-10 when the player accidentally discovers diplomacy or glibness.

[Ancient Mage]

This is part of the reason I posted this. JaronK's system does not have a by-level estimate. A by-level estimate might come in handy on shorter games that only last a few levels, but start at a different level than 1.
I need suggestions as to how to manipulate the table, adding things besides mathematics to my estimations.

-Ancient Mage

[Snowbluff]

This is part of the reason I posted this. JaronK's system does not have a by-level estimate. A by-level estimate might come in handy on shorter games that only last a few levels, but start at a different level than 1.
I need suggestions as to how to manipulate the table, adding things besides mathematics to my estimations.

-Ancient Mage

Well, you always do what JaronK did. Just look at each class and what it can do/how versatile it is at each level. Example:1 level Druids don't know Wildshape yet. Maybe put them a little more right at that level.

[dextercorvia]

This is part of the reason I posted this. JaronK's system does not have a by-level estimate. A by-level estimate might come in handy on shorter games that only last a few levels, but start at a different level than 1.
I need suggestions as to how to manipulate the table, adding things besides mathematics to my estimations.

-Ancient Mage

What did you base your math on? It looks like you did something like, (Cumulative Class Specials)+(size of HD)+(# of good saves) = Power. This is wildly inaccurate.

[Big Fau]

The idea that the Bard is less powerful than the Monk is ludicrous. Same with the Sorcerer being ranked lower. I think 9th level spells like Shapechange are vastly superior to Quivering Palm or Flurry of Blows or Wholeness of Body.

[dextercorvia]

Well, you always do what JaronK did. Just look at each class and what it can do/how versatile it is at each level. Example:1 level Druids don't know Wildshape yet. Maybe put them a little more right at that level.

I happen to agree that Druid is the strongest class core only at level 1. They have a d8 HD, high Con, Spells, and a pet Fighter+. That they get two good saves is just gravy.

[gkathellar]

The issue here is that your math is inaccurate. Your rankings are simply wrong in many places.

In fact, I'm really uncertain what you mean when you say you're deriving this mathematically. What exactly is your method? Are you assigning point values to different abilities and trying to compare from that point? Because I'd question (a) your individual choices of how valuable things are, and (b) whether it's possible to accurately reduce a game with such a focus on lateral thinking to mathematics.

[NOhara24]

In fact, I'm really uncertain what you mean when you say you're deriving this mathematically. What exactly is your method? Are you assigning point values to different abilities and trying to compare from that point? Because I'd question (a) your individual choices of how valuable things are, and (b) whether it's possible to accurately reduce a game with such a focus on lateral thinking to mathematics.

This. How is "math" involved in ranking the classes at all?

Jaron K's tier system is more than enough. We don't need a further breakdown of which class is most powerful in each tier. There is no "best class" in D&D. That's not to say that some classes just aren't better than others. But I can guarantee you that a Druid will get handily outperformed by a party of other Tier 1s.

[Snowbluff]

I happen to agree that Druid is the strongest class core only at level 1. They have a d8 HD, high Con, Spells, and a pet Fighter+. That they get two good saves is just gravy.

Fighter pet isn't exactly at level 1, either. It has no BaB, can't Power Attack yet, and you are limited to the weaker pets. A Pwnasaurus Fleshraker it is not.

Spells are a plus, but Druid's also only have a small handful of slots, and if they have high Con as a higher level Druid, they probably dumped their Dex and Str, making them weak with weapons.

Following that reasoning, I'd elect Sorc to be moves left at Level One, as they simply have more Slots and Wizards have similar spell choice limitations. Plus, they have almost the same class features, including the Almost-Fighter+ Familiars.

[tyckspoon]

I do not know JaronK's method of deciding upon tiers, but I can surmise that it's main focus was versatility, and it was not 100% mathematical.

-Ancient Mage

For Tiers 1 and 2, and some applications of Tier 3, it's not mathematical at all. The defining feature of those tiers is I Have A Spell For That, which is not something you can reasonably apply a 'score' to. Whatever the problem is, a Tier 1/2/3-within-its-specialty can solve it. If you want to talk in terms of versatility (and to horribly oversimplify a lot of the reasoning behind the tier assignments:)

Tier 1 is Power + Versatility, exemplified by the Wizard. They can have the perfect solution, and they can change what situations they have the perfect solution for.

Tier 2 is Power + limited versatility, exemplified by the Sorcerer. They can choose what to have the perfect solution for, but once that choice is made it can't/can't be easily changed.

Tier 3 is Power OR Versatility; they typically can have perfect solutions, but with very little choice in what to be good at (Beguiler, Bard, for example, are really good at illusions/enchantment/social/stealth, but not so much anything else) or be decent at everything without having the absolute best way to solve any one thing (Factotum, some kinds of Bard again.)

For those tiers- especially the 1 and 2 full casters- base numbers are essentially meaningless.

[dextercorvia]

Fighter pet isn't exactly at level 1, either. It has no BaB, can't Power Attack yet, and you are limited to the weaker pets. A Pwnasaurus Fleshraker it is not.

Spells are a plus, but Druid's also only have a small handful of slots, and if they have high Con as a higher level Druid, they probably dumped their Dex and Str, making them weak with weapons.

Following that reasoning, I'd elect Sorc to be moves left at Level One, as they simply have more Slots and Wizards have similar spell choice limitations. Plus, they have almost the same class features, including the Almost-Fighter+ Familiars.

BAB +1, 13 HP, Free Trip on successful attack. Fairly comparable. It might not be Fighter+ yet, but it is just one class feature.

[Grim Reader]

My take for level 1:

Cleric -spells, armor, hp, saves, and domain abilities. Also turning.
Druid -spells, hp, saves and a pet thats about equalt to a monk or fighter.
Wizard -spells
Sorcerer -spells
Barbarian -Rage, pounce and hp
Ranger/Rogue/Paladin/Bard -uncertain which is better at level 1
Monk
Fighter

WBL hasn't rendered the monks stuff irrelevant yet.

At level 5

Druid -adds wild shape
Cleric
Wizard
Sorcerer
Bard
Barbarian
Paladin -Divine Grace matters at this point.
Rogue -UMD matters
Ranger (Unless Wildshape)
Fighter
Monk

At later leves, Ranger probably climbs a little as good spells come in. Paladin drops a bit.

[tyckspoon]

BAB +1, 13 HP, Free Trip on successful attack. Fairly comparable. It might not be Fighter+ yet, but it is just one class feature.

I was going to say.. level 1 is actually a high point for the Animal Companion in this comparison. A Riding Dog or combat-trained Wolf wearing barding is better than unoptimized (sword+shield+ Weapon Focus, for the 'typical' Fighter-who-doesn't-know-better) Fighters and is still useful standing next to optimized ones. Not bad for the *weakest* of the 3 major Druid class features. Magic items generally tip the balance back toward the Fighter as you level, unless the Druid is willing to invest his own WBL in keeping his pet up instead of buying stuff for himself. The animals still tend to be better at whatever one thing it is they do, tho- grappling for bears, putting out damage very very quickly for the dinosaurs/pouncing cats.

[Snowbluff]

BAB +1, 13 HP, Free Trip on successful attack. Fairly comparable. It might not be Fighter+ yet, but it is just one class feature.

If it's a level 1 animal, which have average BaB, it should only have 0 BaB. :smallconfused:

Also, I am not say fighter is better, but that other classes do better at level 1.

[Siosilvar]

If it's a level 1 animal, which have average BaB, it should only have 0 BaB. :smallconfused:

Also, I am not say fighter is better, but that other classes do better at level 1.

Wolves and riding dogs both have 2 HD and are valid choices for a level 1 druid's animal companion.

[tyckspoon]

If it's a level 1 animal, which have average BaB, it should only have 0 BaB. :smallconfused:

Also, I am not say fighter is better, but that other classes do better at level 1.

Riding Dogs and Wolves both have 2 HD. It's a reasonably significant part of what makes them as good as/better than a Fighter at level 1.

Edit: So as not to be completely useless post-ninja-

A Heavy Horse also makes for a pretty beastly companion, assuming you combat-train it so it can use its hoof attacks properly. Unfortunately this does not convert your Heavy Horse to a Heavy Warhorse- they're different creatures- but if you can convince your DM that it does more power to you.

[dextercorvia]

If it's a level 1 animal, which have average BaB, it should only have 0 BaB. :smallconfused:

Also, I am not say fighter is better, but that other classes do better at level 1.

You don't gain a "level one animal," you gain a Riding Dog, which has 2 HD, and the correct amount of BAB to go with that.

Also, a Low-Op fighter is going to be Sword and Board, or TWF, not Two Handed Power Attacking.

[Istari]

Following that reasoning, I'd elect Sorc to be moves left at Level One, as they simply have more Slots and Wizards have similar spell choice limitations. Plus, they have almost the same class features, including the Almost-Fighter+ Familiars.

This, at level one, a wizard may have slightly more versatility, but the spell slots at level one make the sorcerer much better.

[Grim Reader]

This, at level one, a wizard may have slightly more versatility, but the spell slots at level one make the sorcerer much better.

Wizards get Scribe Scroll, and scribing a 1st level spell is rather cheap. Meaning they increase both versatility and number of spells. Sorcerers can take Scribe Scroll, but don't get it for free. (And Wizards can grab a reserve feat)

[Snowbluff]

You don't gain a "level one animal," you gain a Riding Dog, which has 2 HD, and the correct amount of BAB to go with that.

Also, a Low-Op fighter is going to be Sword and Board, or TWF, not Two Handed Power Attacking.

Forgot that the AnC had it's own set of HD and gained Bonus HD, rather sharing HD with it's owner like the familiar.

Also, a "Low-op" Druid isn't going to choose the AnC that has 2 HD. >.>

[SamBurke]

I Know, I redid the math over and over again. If I take out certain aspects of the math for the monk, then it will drastically destroy many other classes. The monk class is obviously a hard class to eke power out of, and I agree that it should not be so far up.
It's probably the improved evasion, mountain of special abilities (wholeness of body, quivering palm, etc.) and in particular, the 3 good saves, that make the class so high up. The mathematical advantage from 3 good saves is very high, also propelling some 2 save classes (like Ranger) into high slots.
I do not know JaronK's method of deciding upon tiers, but I can surmise that it's main focus was versatility, and it was not 100% mathematical.

-Ancient Mage

Basing it on tiers, here's the list:

1. Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Barbarian, Bard, Fighter/Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, Monk

5. Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Monk.

10. Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Bard, (gap) Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Monk.

15. Wizard, Cleric, Sorc, Druid. (gap) Bard, (Large Gap), Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter, Paladin, Monk

20. Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, (Insert gigantic cliff here), Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, Monk.

There are some parts to this that may or may not be accurate (especially at the lower end of the list), but that's a better version, methinks, by JaronK.

[shadow_archmagi]

You should post the math you used. I'm curious as to what formulae you were using as criteria

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright! Let's fix this. *cracks knuckles*

1st: Druid, cleric, ranger, barbarian, bard, rogue, fighter, monk, sorcerer, wizard (at first, they're all very close)
5th: Druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, ranger, barbarian, rogue, fighter, monk (the tier system kicks in here, but everything within one tier of each other is close)
10th: Druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, rogue, barbarian, ranger, fighter, monk (this is where the tier system comes into full effect)
15th: Wizard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, bard, rogue barbarian, ranger, fighter, monk (rogue, barbarian, and ranger are close, tier 1s are close)
20th: As 15th

[Demons_eye]

Forgot that the AnC had it's own set of HD and gained Bonus HD, rather sharing HD with it's owner like the familiar.

Also, a "Low-op" Druid isn't going to choose the AnC that has 2 HD. >.>

Badger gets rage, camel has 3hd, Dire Rat has Disease, even low op druids would choose a dog you can ride between it and one you couldn't, Eagle, hawk, and owl can fly, hourse has 3hd, pony has 2hd, Snake has poison, and wolf is a wolf. An A.C. is better than a fighter in the sense it gives you options if its not a fighter or a better fighter than the fighter is, at least at level 1.

[gkathellar]

Basing it on tiers, here's the list:

1. Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Barbarian, Bard, Fighter/Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, Monk

5. Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Monk.

10. Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Bard, (gap) Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Monk.

15. Wizard, Cleric, Sorc, Druid. (gap) Bard, (Large Gap), Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter, Paladin, Monk

20. Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, (Insert gigantic cliff here), Bard, Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, Monk.

There are some parts to this that may or may not be accurate (especially at the lower end of the list), but that's a better version, methinks, by JaronK.

I'd say this is fairly accurate in core-only. Outside of that, the Druid jumps up past the sorcerer, and the Ranger can potentially pull in ahead of the Barbarian.

[Snowbluff]

Badger gets rage, camel has 3hd, Dire Rat has Disease, even low op druids would choose a dog you can ride between it and one you couldn't, Eagle, hawk, and owl can fly, hourse has 3hd, pony has 2hd, Snake has poison, and wolf is a wolf. An A.C. is better than a fighter in the sense it gives you options if its not a fighter or a better fighter than the fighter is, at least at level 1.

KK, good point except it has no bearing on op. More fighters would choose their trusty zweihanders than Sword + Board. Though I will say having another body is better than nothing at all levels.

Not that SB is that bad at Lvl1 anyway. A shield is a significant boost when 14 AC is alot.

As for the Wizard and Scribing Scrolls, I think its 50gp to scribe a level 1 scroll, and players don't start with a lot of GP at level one. Still, it's a lot better than none. YMMV

[dextercorvia]

KK, good point except it has no bearing on op. More fighters would choose their trusty zweihanders than Sword + Board. Though I will say having another body is better than nothing at all levels.

Not that SB is that bad at Lvl1 anyway. A shield is a significant boost when 14 AC is alot.

As for the Wizard and Scribing Scrolls, I think its 50gp to scribe a level 1 scroll, and players don't start with a lot of GP at level one. Still, it's a lot better than none. YMMV

It costs 12.5 gold and 1 XP to scribe a level one scroll. If you have any downtime at all, you can scribe one scroll per day containing as many spells as you have left.

[Snowbluff]

you can scribe one scroll per day containing as many spells as you have left.

Really? Spells you have left? More like you are going to have to have down DAYS at level 1 to make it worthwhile. Your mileage STILL may vary. :smallfrown:

[Grim Reader]

Goldwise, in practice you should get the party to chip in to keep a few sitauational spells handy. XP wise...1 xp isn't THAT much.

[Draz74]

Basing it on tiers, here's the list:

Close (especially for Core-only), but at low levels spellcasters actually do run out of spells with a decent number of encounters/day, and that actually can put melee types ahead.

I'd say:

Level 1
Druid, Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, Monk, Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

Level 5
Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Bard, Sorcerer, Monk

Level 10
Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Bard, Rogue, Sorcerer, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

Level 15
Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

Level 20
Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

[Demons_eye]

KK, good point except it has no bearing on op. More fighters would choose their trusty zweihanders than Sword + Board. Though I will say having another body is better than nothing at all levels.

Not that SB is that bad at Lvl1 anyway. A shield is a significant boost when 14 AC is alot.

You mentioned how a A.C. is not equal to a fighter and when shown how well a comparison a wolf would be you said that 'Low op' druids wouldn't pick a 2hd A.C. So I listed how other A.C.'s choices could still be a decent fighter or give you different options. It pertains to the OP because it shows how well off even a low op druid is over a low op fighter/any other class.

[dextercorvia]

Really? Spells you have left? More like you are going to have to have down DAYS at level 1 to make it worthwhile. Your mileage STILL may vary. :smallfrown:

A core only Wizard1 will have 3-4 1st level spells. If you have a light day, you can scribe the spell or two you have left. In a single full day of downtime, you can scribe your full allotment. How many scrolls does do you need for you to consider it worthwhile?


Close (especially for Core-only), but at low levels spellcasters actually do run out of spells with a decent number of encounters/day, and that actually can put melee types ahead.

My experience is that Melee runs out of HP faster than spellcasters run out of spells even at Level 1, unless they force the casters to use their class features to keep them in the game. I'm thinking Wizard and Sorcerer should be at least to the left of Rogue and Monk.

[Big Fau]

A core only Wizard1 will have 3-4 1st level spells. If you have a light day, you can scribe the spell or two you have left. In a single full day of downtime, you can scribe your full allotment. How many scrolls does do you need for you to consider it worthwhile?

You can only scribe 1 scroll/day:


The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.

[dextercorvia]

You can only scribe 1 scroll/day:

A scroll can contain more than one spell.

[Lans]

This being core only means that monk needs to be low on the list due to mad and lack of awesome abilities like invisibility, playing dead, and epic fighter feats.

Not to mention lack of offense and defense.

How is the clerics and druids BAB playing into the calcs at high levels?

[Snowbluff]

A core only Wizard1 will have 3-4 1st level spells. If you have a light day, you can scribe the spell or two you have left. In a single full day of downtime, you can scribe your full allotment. How many scrolls does do you need for you to consider it worthwhile?


1 slot from 1st level Wizard. You need 20+ Int to get a 3rd slot. 2 slots is what you can expect from an average first level Core Wizard. Which, in my opinion, is a little harsh.

A day in my campaigns has 2-3 encounters in. Saving spells for afterwords would mean only casting one 1st level spell in the WHOLE day. :smalleek:

This also brings up the fact that even if a Wizard knew more spells than his Sorcerer counterpart. At level 1, he might as well only know one!

[sreservoir]

1 slot from 1st level Wizard. You need 20+ Int to get a 3rd slot. 2 slots is what you can expect from an average first level Core Wizard. Which, in my opinion, is a little harsh.

A day in my campaigns has 2-3 encounters in. Saving spells for afterwords would mean only casting one 1st level spell in the WHOLE day. :smalleek:

This also brings up the fact that even if a Wizard knew more spells than his Sorcerer counterpart. At level 1, he might as well only know one!

specialization is +1 slot.

[Big Fau]

This also brings up the fact that even if a Wizard knew more spells than his Sorcerer counterpart. At level 1, he might as well only know one!

Wizards start with a number of 1st level spells equal to their Int modifier...


A scroll can contain more than one spell.

Show me where in the rules it says doing so counts as scribing a single scroll.

[dextercorvia]

Wizards start with a number of 1st level spells equal to their Int modifier...



Show me where in the rules it says doing so counts as scribing a single scroll.


Scrolls
A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell.

Physical Description

A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 ½ inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 ½ inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather.



Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.

The first quote makes it clear that Scroll /= Spell. If they wanted to make this per spell, they would have needed to say "Scribing a spell onto a scroll requires..."

@Snowbluff: 2 spells per day was a sad fact of life in 2e even for specialists. 1st level was hard. My max of 4 spells comes from 1(std. Wizard) + 1(specialization) +2 (Int of 20 from a Gray Elf, MM)

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff: 2 spells per day was a sad fact of life in 2e even for specialists. 1st level was hard. My max of 4 spells comes from 1(std. Wizard) + 1(specialization) +2 (Int of 20 from a Gray Elf, MM)

Yeah, it must've been. Though, being able to get a +int race with no LA is a big help. I Don't think Sorcs are that lucky in Core.

This definitely shows the biggest benefit of being a Wizard. You have lots of overhead for optimization!

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, it must've been. Though, being able to get a +int race with no LA is a big help. I Don't think Sorcs are that lucky in Core.

This definitely shows the biggest benefit of being a Wizard. You have lots of overhead for optimization!

That's why I said 3-4. I am expecting at low-op, Evocation Specialist with 16 Int (to make room for a more dex, or lower pt. buy.) and that is still 3 spells per day. It's harder to budget them, but it works.

[Ancient Mage]

Ok, they way that I did the math was based, yes, partially on basic class features. Base Attack, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills contributed to the math, but overall, they were a secondary method of determination.
Spells gained the class a lot of power, perhaps not enough? When I Balanced out spells with BA, HD and Saves, I may not have given enough power to spells, and in particular, arcane spells.
The last part was how well each class can overcome speedily, efficiently, and powerfully, a challenge thrown at it. I tested each class for Combat, Diplomacy, Travel, Utility, Stealth and Healing powers. I have now added another test, Defensive capability, and have altered class features math somewhat.

20th level: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter

15th level: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter

10th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Bard, Fighter, Rogue

5th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Fighter, Rogue

1st level: Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Barbarian, Wizard, Monk, Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Bard, Rogue

Tell me what you think, and tell me what I should add to my math.

-Ancient Mage

[gkathellar]

Ok, they way that I did the math was based, yes, partially on basic class features. Base Attack, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills contributed to the math, but overall, they were a secondary method of determination.
Spells gained the class a lot of power, perhaps not enough? When I Balanced out spells with BA, HD and Saves, I may not have given enough power to spells, and in particular, arcane spells.
The last part was how well each class can overcome speedily, efficiently, and powerfully, a challenge thrown at it. I tested each class for Combat, Diplomacy, Travel, Utility, Stealth and Healing powers. I have now added another test, Defensive capability, and have altered class features math somewhat.

20th level: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter

15th level: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter

10th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Bard, Fighter, Rogue

5th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Fighter, Rogue

1st level: Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Barbarian, Wizard, Monk, Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Bard, Rogue

Tell me what you think, and tell me what I should add to my math.

-Ancient Mage

Better, but still deeply, deeply wrong. Rangers are not better than Barbarians and Bards in core-only, and they're not better than Sorcerers ever. Monks are hands-down the worst class at every level. Again, the list goes on, and I have to question how exactly you're deriving these, at what level of optimization your estimates are coming in, the relationship between abilities and items, and the variable value lateral thinking and tactics have to various different classes.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, they way that I did the math was based, yes, partially on basic class features. Base Attack, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills contributed to the math, but overall, they were a secondary method of determination.
Spells gained the class a lot of power, perhaps not enough? When I Balanced out spells with BA, HD and Saves, I may not have given enough power to spells, and in particular, arcane spells.
The last part was how well each class can overcome speedily, efficiently, and powerfully, a challenge thrown at it. I tested each class for Combat, Diplomacy, Travel, Utility, Stealth and Healing powers. I have now added another test, Defensive capability, and have altered class features math somewhat.

Can you just say what sort of math you are using? I'd be happy to look at a formula, and see what sort of tweaks could be made. Sorcerers are moving across too slowly, Monk is testing abnormally high at all levels. Wizard should have overtaken Cleric at least by level 10, and possibly Druid as well, but I have less experience with them. Bard ranks unusually low at all levels, especially 15 and 20. Rogue should rank higher at low levels when trapfinding is the only way to avoid traps.

[Grim Reader]

You can only scribe 1 scroll/day:

That only limits you during your first adventure. It normally takes more than one dungeon to leave level 1. You should have a few weeks dowontime between adventures, during which you can scribe 10-30 spells if the party has the gold.

Let the Sorcerer have more slots.

[Venusaur]

Ok, they way that I did the math was based, yes, partially on basic class features. Base Attack, Hit Dice, Saves, and Skills contributed to the math, but overall, they were a secondary method of determination.
Spells gained the class a lot of power, perhaps not enough? When I Balanced out spells with BA, HD and Saves, I may not have given enough power to spells, and in particular, arcane spells.
The last part was how well each class can overcome speedily, efficiently, and powerfully, a challenge thrown at it. I tested each class for Combat, Diplomacy, Travel, Utility, Stealth and Healing powers. I have now added another test, Defensive capability, and have altered class features math somewhat.

20th level: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter

15th level: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Ranger, Monk, Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Rogue, Fighter

10th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Monk, Barbarian, Paladin, Bard, Fighter, Rogue

5th level: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Fighter, Rogue

1st level: Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Barbarian, Wizard, Monk, Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Bard, Rogue

Tell me what you think, and tell me what I should add to my math.

-Ancient Mage

Why is rogue last? It is a great skill monkey, and sneak attack can do good damage. It isn't the best but still good. Also, monk 20 is last.

[Siosilvar]

Why is rogue last? It is a great skill monkey, and sneak attack can do good damage. It isn't the best but still good.

Not to mention UMD as a class skill, which ought to bump it up quite a bit... if it's used (properly). Rogue with UMD and rogue without UMD play as two completely different classes.

[Venusaur]

It does say to assume low-op, so i left UMD out. Still better than monk. Rogue is also more of a team player with flanking buddies, and might not do well by himself in tests.

[Chronos]

A low-op druid isn't going to pick a wolf for having 2 HD. A low-op druid is going to pick a wolf because hey, wolves are cool, and who doesn't want to have a pet wolf? That's part of the problem with druids: They're idiot-proof (at least, more so than most other classes).

And the last time I saw someone do the detailed comparison, a moderate-optimization 1st-level fighter did work out to be a little better than a wolf companion... But only slightly, and if the druid does so much as flanking for the wolf to give it +2 to hit (not actually doing anything else, just standing there flanking), that's enough to put the wolf over the top. And of course that's in addition to the druid swinging a club himself, and maybe throwing out a couple of Entangles a day.

Then too, of course, the animal companion is also expendable. The biggest problem that a level 1 fighter has is that an orc warrior who gets lucky with a battleaxe can kill him in a single hit, game over, but he really needs to be up front next to that orc with the axe to do his job. If the animal companion takes that lucky crit, though, well, the druid just gets another wolf the next day, no problem.

Druids are one of only about 4 or 5 classes, and the only one in core, that doesn't suck at first level.

[sreservoir]

A low-op druid isn't going to pick a wolf for having 2 HD. A low-op druid is going to pick a wolf because hey, wolves are cool, and who doesn't want to have a pet wolf? That's part of the problem with druids: They're idiot-proof (at least, more so than most other classes).

not idiot-proof; that would imply that it's difficult possible to screw up. druid is more of a class which simply can reach high power simply by picking cool things, which quite different.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This thread is why establishing tier levels for classes will never be a truly mathematical process. It's already been said a thousand times before, but martial is linear, and magic is quadratic.

You will probably, in all likelihood, have a situation (at first level) that looks something like this:

1st: Druid, Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Ranger, Paladin, Wizard, Monk, Bard

Class-by-class analysis:

Druid: Those two spells per day may not amount to a whole lot in terms of sheer quantity, but always knowing their whole list (which is good even in core), the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally (even for one round, a wolf is great to have), D8 Hit Dice, light armor proficiency, and 4+int skills per level with a decent list (Diplomacy, Heal, Listen, Spot, Survival, to name a few) mean that there really is no tremendous downside to being a druid, even at first level. Let's see, was I forgetting something? Oh, yeah--they get another freakin' wolf that sticks around.

Barbarian: D12 Hit Dice, full Base Attack Bonus, and fast movement all matter at this point. If you think of your barbarian as the axe-swinging, well, barbarian, then he's probably using a greataxe (or some equivalent weapon), is STR-heavy (and possibly CON-heavy as well), and are probably capable of one-shotting almost anything at CR 1 (up to, and including, your archetypal wolf), at least while in rage. At this point, the fact that they get full Hit Dice at 1st level matters more than the fact that they get D12 Hit Dice, and they probably have triple the hit point value of your average caster (and twice everyone else) while in rage, where hit points are still a thing that matters.

Cleric: A Cleric has a D8 hit dice (which is average), 2+Int skills with a shoddy list (but more on that), and no Base Attack Bonus at this level, but has almost everything else that matters. Two good saves, full armor proficiencies, spellcasting that doesn't suck at low levels (Bless is strictly better than the bard's Inspire Courage at this level, and it's not even the best thing on your spell list at core-only 1), and the awesomeness that is domain-granted powers. Seriously, domain powers are the Cleric's versatility at this stage in the game. Want to be more battle-focused? Take the War domain, which offers you Magic Weapon as your bonus spell, and Weapon Focus (your deity's weapon here) for dessert! Want to be a rogue in plate? Disguise Self is better than disguise ever will be, but just for funsies, you get disguise, bluff and hide to pad your weak skill list with! The cleric spell list isn't enough? Pad your spell list with domain spells! Finally, while spontaneous cure spells scale incredibly poorly, this is the one level where a Cure Light Wounds will cure a meaningful percentage of a character's maximum Hit Points.

Fighter: A weak skill list, one good save, and poor class features don't affect the fighter too much at this level; what matters is that the Fighter is likely STR-loaded (and STR is the only attribute that typically applies to damage rolls) and that feats that don't scale are always best at first level. If you have good starting gold, you can possibly finance chain mail or splint mail (depending on your DEX bonus), and even if your feats are something like Weapon Focus and Power Attack, those small bonuses are still enough to matter at this point (the same goes, ostensibly, for Dodge, Combat Expertise, and the like). A Human Fighter played by even a reasonably competent player will likely have at least one trick that can turn the tide of a low-CR encounter (such as Power Attack + Cleave for a STR-loaded fighter leveling a band of mooks, keeping in mind that we're at a point where 2d6+4 on a 16 STR fighter is not only meaningful, but lethal to most; or Improved Trip for taking care of that one Big Bad in the room, since being prone makes a lot of things useless at this stage in the game). D10 Hit Dice and full Base Attack Bonus aren't the absolute best chassis, but they're better than most.

Rogue: Sneak Attack +1d6 is situationally useful, and at this point it can end the life of some poor mook if you're using a sword and have a decent STR bonus (meaning that, in terms of strict damage output, at this level a rogue in the ideal situation is almost as effective as a 2H barbarian or fighter on an average day). Their chassis isn't good (one good save, D6 HD, 0 BAB), but their skill list is the best in the game, and this is a saving grace at entry levels where skillful situations leave most people with their pants down. At this point, the fact that the rogue gets 4x skills at first level is more important than the fact that they get 8+INT in general (meaning that, for a skillful build, dipping rogue at level 1 isn't an unpopular choice in core, even if rogue isn't your first choice for classes in general).

Sorcerer: Your chassis is the worst in the game (D4 HD, poor BAB, one good save, a poor skill list), you have a limited number of spells known, and anything that scales (and as a caster, everything that scales) is at its absolute weakest. You do, however, have a diverse range of options, and can simply spam anything and everything that you have. You may only know a few spells, but you can use any of them when you want to, and you can use each of them as many times as you have spells per day, which means you have less versatility of options, but more practical versatility (in the application of your options). If you take any of Charm Person, Disguise Self, Obscuring Mist, Grease, Hypnotism, Silent Image or Sleep, you'll likely be able to make an impact throughout your entire adventuring day. If you take Mage Armor and Magic Missile, you'll still at least be fairly safe throughout your combats (you'll likely wise up quickly and realize that Mage Armor and a light crossbow are your best friends if your DEX bonus is high enough).

Paladin & Ranger: Each of these classes gets D10 Hit Dice, full Base Attack Bonus and one (niche, or otherwise mediocre) combat ability. Paladins and Rangers have their niche, if the DM feels like giving it to them; a Ranger that has Favored Enemy (human scum) and is playing in a war game and a Paladin that has Smite Evil Scum and is fighting a good vs. evil campaign are going to see some decent use out of their features, though at level 1 Smite Evil only matters if you have a high CHA bonus (though as a Paladin, you definitely want a high CHA bonus). When it comes down to it, in combat neither of these features are strictly as good or as versatile as the Fighter bonus feat at first level, when used intelligently. This and the Fighter's being slightly less MAD (and being STR-loaded) are what make the Fighter better in this stage of the game, though by level 2, the Paladin is already getting features that exceed the equivalent Fighter feats (Divine Grace). The Ranger probably slightly beats out the Paladin because of the ability to select your favored enemy options, better skill list, and two good saves. (The latter stops mattering by level 2, but it definitely matters now.)

Wizard: The Wizard is in a unique predicament at first level, and that's that, unless he has an absurdly high INT score (Gray Elf with maxed INT) or is a specialist, he probably only has two spells per day at this level, plus cantrips. At starting gold, the wizard isn't able to buy his way to vastly greater diversity than the sorcerer, so while the wizard likely has more options, it isn't a game-changer. What is, however, is the limits of the wizard's applications. The wizard who gets two spells per day chooses them in advance of the adventuring day (or prepares empty slots, which guarantees he has his pants down by first combat), and while he can make a difference with those two spell slots, he likely won't survive the adventuring day on the merits of his spells alone. First-level wizards don't qualify for any reserve feats (much less any that matter), so longevity is their death knell here. After the first fight, many wizards are commoners with crossbows.

Monk: To understand exactly why the monk is so far down on this list, you have to understand exactly what it gets and its relative value compared to all that we've compared it to thus far. The monk gets D8 Hit Dice (which is strictly inferior to every melee-oriented character except for the Rogue), 3/4 BAB (see Hit Dice) and three good saves (which is strictly superior to everyone else). Their skill list and skill points are Rogue Lite, but INT is your dump stat (being strictly inferior to STR, DEX, CON and WIS), so you won't be capitalizing on it very well at 4+INT. You get WIS to AC in lieu of armor proficiency, which basically means that a first-level monk with 14 DEX and 14 WIS is mechanically identical to a first-level rogue with 14 DEX and leather armor, only the rogue didn't have to invest a second good roll (or the equivalent point buy) to get it. You get flurry of blows, which is Two-Weapon Fighting with limitations, but the Rogue that picks Two-Weapon Fighting as an entry level feat gets to apply Sneak Attack +1d6 to each attack, making him, again, strictly superior. You get unarmed damage progression that beats your average unarmed strike, but is on par with using a short sword (or equivalent one-handed light weapon) and behind everything else, and you don't get blanket proficiencies of any weapon level (and are technically not proficient with unarmed strikes, though any DM that nerfs the monk deserves to be set on fire, especially if he uses this nitpick). You get Stunning Fist (but 1/day) or Improved Grapple, which is like having a Fighter bonus feat I guess, but the Fighter's probably doing it better. The monk is MAD, almost all its features are strictly inferior to any weapon or armor proficiency... It's a mess.

Bard: ...But not quite as much, at first level, as the bard. The bard gets the rogue's Hit Dice and Base Attack Bonus, but two saves, so its chassis is slightly better for combat than the rogue and slightly worse than the monk (which gets D8 and three good saves). They also get some interesting weapon proficiencies, and that's where the good stuff ends. They get Bardic Music, but only 1/day, and their options for using it are mediocre (Countersong is only really useful against other bards, who at this level don't have sonic attacks yet, Fascinate gives opponents a mediocre skill check penalty, and Inspire Courage is strictly worse than Bless at level 1, and is essentially Concentration in larger combats). That's about it. Oh, and I mentioned this in passing before, but Bards don't get level 1 spells yet. They are much like the Paladin, Ranger and Monk in this regard--the money features don't come online until level 2--but they have the worst chassis among them. At level 1, you are a worse skill monkey than the rogue, and that's your signature feature.

5th: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Fighter

Class-by-class analysis:

Druid: Wild Shape. Third-level spells. Animal companion. Nothing more needs to be said. Even without wilding clasps or wild armor (outside of core, this comes as an armor enhancement and probably won't be attained at level 5), Wild Shape, Summon Nature's Ally III (and other spells, since you're technically padding your spell list with other spells for show) and your animal companion make you a one-man army who is quickly becoming capable of answering any problem simply by being anything. This isn't a "bear-riding bear who summons bears" statement: this is stopping yourself from dying from a sheer drop by flying out of your nosedive.)

Cleric: You get access to third-level spells, including some that really matter. Being evil is what's keeping you ahead of the Wizard at this point, as Animate Dead turns you into Bizarro druid, and Bestow Curse and other debuffs give you some of the more powerful of the low-level save-or-sucks. Your chassis is also strictly better than the wizard, and this is one of the precious last few levels that this still matters for anything, at least in low-to-mid op games.

Wizard: You now have enough spells to have an answer to most situations (even without investing considerable WBL to expand your spell list), and enough spells per day to carry yourself through the average adventuring day without breaking out your crossbow, which has become a spurned lover to you. More importantly, spells that can scale have scaled, so even your offensive options aren't strictly worse than melee at this point (remember when the party fighter laughed at you for taking Shocking Grasp?). You get a lot of bread-and-butter spells at this level, no matter your flavor (Fireball and Lightning Bolt for blasties; Haste, Heroism and Invisibility for buffies; Slow and Dispel Magic for debuffies; Sleet Storm for battlefield control), but you're not quite at the point where you're breaking the game. You're still squishy, but you're capable of protecting yourself in some ways (Mage Armor lasts you most of the day, but Protection from Arrows and Resist Energy get you through those tougher encounters). Also, you can fly and be invisible.

Barbarian: As I said before with the cleric, this is one of the last levels where the chassis still matters. Barbarians get another instance of rage, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense, but mostly it's just their physical numbers that matter at this point (and also the rage). This may be an unpopular decision, since they still only get one attack per round, but I think it's deserved.

Rogue: The Sorcerer may be able to do everything the rogue does at this level, but only by investing all their spells known in the doing. Sneak Attack +3d6 never runs out of daily uses, and they are still skillful.

Sorcerer: Odd-numbered levels make the sorcerer cry. The wizard is up a spell level, and the sorcerer is also lagging behind in spells known, which can be quite shameful. A sorcerer with decent CHA doesn't run out of spells per day at this level, but they may also be stuck with spells that were useful at level 1, but scale poorly or not at all (such as Sleep or Cause Fear).

Bard: Bards are also at their second-level spells at this point, and while their list isn't as fantastic as the sorcerer/wizard, or their spellcasting options as lenient as the cleric or druid, spellcasting is spellcasting. The bard is, out of the box, more skillful than any other caster, and outside of core, skills still matter somewhat, so that's good. Your options are yet limited, but you are filling into the "jack of all trades" role a little more easily.

Paladin: You now have a second use of Smite Evil (and it's scaling... Somewhat), turn undead, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Divine Mount, divine spells... You're as feature-packed as you're ever going to get. Your spellcasting options are fairly weak (about equivalent to most fighter feats in core), but you get more of them, and can switch out ones you don't like. You're slightly better than the ranger at this level because Divine Grace and turn undead make a high CHA score very useful, and your special mount is still better than the ranger's animal companion.

Ranger: The ranger at this level has their first combat style feat, an animal companion, a second favored enemy, and divine spells (if their WIS is high enough). Their core options for spells aren't fantastic, but Charm Animal, Entangle and Resist Energy at least give you some decent options. Your spell options are slightly better than the paladin, but their class features are slightly better at this point.

Monk: Ki Strike allows you to overcome certain damage reduction, your flurry of blows has scaled better than your BAB up to this point, you have purity of body and your second bonus feat, and you still have three good saves. Unfortunately, this is also the last level monks aren't the worst class in the game.

Fighter: Your lack of features are really hurting at this point. Bonus feats only get you so far, and you are still only able to attack once per round. You aren't built as well as a barbarian. You've got nothing special going for you at this point.

10th: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

Class-by-class analysis:

Wizard: At level 7, you got Polymorph, Solid Fog, and Black Tentacles. At level 9, you got Lesser Planar Binding, Teleport, Magic Jar and Baleful Polymorph. You've kinda stopped caring about your D4 HD as well, because you're now a dragon.

Druid: Wild Shape is scaling nicely, but you just can't keep up with the level of sheer power at a wizard's disposal by this point. This will remain true for the rest of the game.

Cleric: You are about on par with the druid in terms of straight spellcasting ability, but you lack the strength of its class features. Divine Power and Righteous Might let you carve up baddies better than your average fighter, and Slay Living and Raise Dead have made you capable of not caring just how alive something is anymore (but at a cost). Spell Resistance and Plane Shift are what are keeping you in the game, here.

Sorcerer: It's kind of hard to tell if the sorcerer is ahead of the cleric or not at this point, simply because the core-only options for a cleric are fairly one-dimensional (lots of buffs to AC, saves, and attack rolls, which the sorcerer stopped caring about awhile back). The sorcerer is coming out on its own, but it lacks the diversity of options; either it's using suboptimal spells to their fullest extent, or it's using optimal tricks in a way that's brutally inefficient for the sorcerer to be doing, because they have a lot of spells per day that won't ever get touched in this regard. A well-played battlefield specialist is probably better than a cleric at this point, but it's close.

Bard: You got your first fourth-level spell! (Assuming CHA 18 or higher.) You now have access to Dominate Person, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement and Summon Monster IV, to name a few, and while it took you longer than the wizard to be able to do most of these things, the fact that you're able to do them allows you to widen the power gap greatly over everything below you. In terms of straight spellcasting ability, nothing beneath you will ever be as good as you are now, at least until the very end game. You also have Bardic Suggestion, and enough uses to mindrape everybody, and Inspire Greatness is pretty cool too. (Inspire Courage just isn't as good in core, ever.)

Rogue: Sneak attack +5d6, evasion, and improved uncanny dodge have made you less vulnerable in combat, and you're still the most skillful in the game, but skills haven't kept up with caster levels very gracefully. You have your first special ability, which you can use on things like Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, Skill Mastery, or Defensive Roll.

Ranger: You're not as strictly combat-effective as the barbarian, but you have evasion now, and you've got second-level spells (and are looking at third). Barkskin, Protection from Energy, Summon Nature's Ally II and the animal buffs are all useful for different things. As for your animal companion, you can now have a Giant Eagle, allowing you to fly about and wreak havoc from the skies. It'll never be as combat effective as a Druid's animal companion, but you do have options.

Barbarian: Damage reduction 2/-- is... Something. Three uses of rage per day mean you're probably in rage whenever it would matter, but you've also the unfortunate drawback of being incomparably weak against a barbarian of just one level higher than you, when your third iterative and greater rage come online. Then again, paladins and rangers get their third iterative and third-level spells at the same time, so the power balance isn't greatly disrupted.

Paladin: You get a few animal buffs and Shield Other, but you're lagging fairly well behind the barbarian and ranger in core. Splat support is really what made the paladin list good.

Fighter: Your feats don't compare to the class features and spells of most of the rest of this list, but at least you're not unarmed and unarmored.

Monk: ...Like the monk. Flurry of blows stopped being quite as good when it started scaling with your BAB, so the fighter is now getting ahead every five levels and you're not.

15th: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Class-by-class analysis:

Wizard: At level 11, you got Planar Binding, True Seeing, Contingency, Mass Suggestion, and mass animal buffs. At level 13, you got Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, Mass Hold Person, Prismatic Spray, Mass Invisibility, and Limited Wish. At level 15, you get Dimensional Lock, Prismatic Wall, Greater Planar Binding, Trap the Soul, Irresistible Dance, and Polymorph Any Object. You're now bending the world over your knee (whilst it is doing the boogie, rest assured).

Druid: Nothing else has changed here. You have better class features than the wizard and cleric, but worse spells than the wizard, and that's keeping you in a solid second.

Cleric: Nothing else has changed here, either. There is enough of a power gap between the cleric and the sorcerer's spellcasting, level-by-level, that the sorcerer is strictly better than the cleric on even levels by virtue of raw power. The cleric's options just aren't good enough in a core-only game to keep pace. Thankfully, this isn't an even level.

Sorcerer: More of the same. Yawn. You're capped at seventh-level spells at this point (sorcerers hate odd numbers), but you've got enough of the lower-level spells known to do at least a few of the world-shatteringly epic tricks available to the wizard at this point. Hopefully you've also traded out most of the spells that you stopped caring about, too.

Bard: You have fifth-level spells (and you get your final spells next level), plus Inspire Greatness and the Song of Freedom. You've done nothing to bridge the gap between yourself and the sorcerer, cleric, druid or wizard, but you're widening the gap between yourself and the rest of the lesser classes considerably.

Ranger: Your spells are starting to matter more. You have fourth-level spells, but your only real bread-and-butter is Freedom of Movement. You have a good skill list and enough tricks to keep pace with the rogue, but it's close.

Rogue: You're just behind the ranger and just ahead of the paladin at this point. Their spellcasting is enough to make a difference in regards to self-buffs and everything like that, and even though you're up to +8d6 sneak attack, you're also at a point where +8d6 just isn't enough to make up for how situational it is to get it at this stage in the game. You're the skill monkey who occasionally has a trick up his sleeve, a (comfortable?) mid-tier class.

Paladin: Holy Sword, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle, and Restoration are all well and good, and four uses of Smite Evil are nice to look at (they're doing +15 damage now), but the power gap between you and the ranger/rogue just aren't going to close. This is the best the paladin will ever get.

Barbarian: Greater rage and scaling damage reduction are nice, but they don't scale well enough to compete with the Paladin's spellcasting.

Fighter: You're just not as good as a barbarian. Sorry.

Monk: Quivering Palm and Diamond Soul are helpful, I suppose, but you just aren't able to match the damage output of a fighter. You're level 15, and you can't even overcome damage reduction as adamantine. Every weapon the fighter has held has been doing that for the last five levels, and is also +3 Flaming Burst or something. Too many of your class features are just too little, too late.

20th: Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

Class-by-class analysis:

Wizard: Time Stop! Imprisonment! Weird! Shapechange! Astral Projection! Mass Hold Monster! Gate!

Sorcerer: Any three of the wizard tricks listed above, plus most of the tricks available to the wizard below. The sorcerer actually benefits from a core game in regards to the relative power level between the sorcerer and the prepared casters, because the prepared casters just don't have the sheer number of available spells that splat support gave them. That advantage is narrowed. What you're left with, then, is the undeniable fact that the sorcerer is still pulling spells from the single best spell list in the game, and we're now at a point where that alone is enough to push it above two of the big three at level 20.

Cleric: Gate! Miracle! True Resurrection! The cleric that uses these three wisely can compete with a sorcerer, but a sorcerer can do two of these three (and the third by proxy using Wish), and another broken trick, such as Time Stop. Actually, in all fairness, so can the cleric, if they choose the right domain.

Druid: Shapechange! Er... Summon Monster IX? Well, I guess you can still be a Huge elemental.

Bard - Monk: The only thing that's changed is that the barbarian's Mighty Rage ekes it out ahead of the paladin of equal level. All the unique features have been spoken for save for the monk's, which can be summed up under the "too little, too late" category.

No math was used in the making of this post. It did require some reasoning, however, but I think that's what made it more accurate than a strict mathematical assessment.

[Doug Lampert]

At level 5

Druid -adds wild shape
Cleric
Wizard
Sorcerer
Bard
Barbarian
Paladin -Divine Grace matters at this point.
Rogue -UMD matters
Ranger (Unless Wildshape)
Fighter
Monk

At later leves, Ranger probably climbs a little as good spells come in. Paladin drops a bit.

Level 5 druid isn't nearly as good as level 6. No natural spell, so if you want to be able to cast AND to wildshape you're basically SOL, wildshaping gets only one use per day and can't cast once you use it till you drop it.

Level 5 druid should only top your list if level 4 druid topped your list too.
Level 6 druid OTOH...

[Gavinfoxx]

Awesome post of awesomeness

And that is why a quantitative, math based analysis with points assigned to features doesn't work as well as such a qualitative analysis in this particular situation. Too much of the class power can't be given a meaningful value; the decisions are arbitrary... but I definitely agree with this post completely, though! OP, if you can get your math to end up closer to this post, you will be more accurate...

[Phaederkiel]

I have to go with Lonely Tylenol here. I´d like to see this for all basic classes (and as a graph, so not to have this "next-lvl-they-get-something-but-now-they-are-still-crap"-situation come up that often). Could be a very good referential threat, this one.


what I do not understand are the people that put wizard on 1st place even on first level. Do you only read optimisation or do you really play this game? No Dm worth his salt will let you rest often enough to be better than the fighter.

[TheMeMan]

This thread is why establishing tier levels for classes will never be a truly mathematical process. It's already been said a thousand times before, but martial is linear, and magic is quadratic.

You will probably, in all likelihood, have a situation (at first level) that looks something like this:

1st: Druid, Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Ranger, Paladin, Wizard, Monk, Bard

Class-by-class analysis:

[spoiler]Druid: Those two spells per day may not amount to a whole lot in terms of sheer quantity, but always knowing their whole list (which is good even in core), the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally (even for one round, a wolf is great to have), D8 Hit Dice, light armor proficiency, and 4+int skills per level with a decent list (Diplomacy, Heal, Listen, Spot, Survival, to name a few) mean that there really is no tremendous downside to being a druid, even at first level. Let's see, was I forgetting something? Oh, yeah--they get another freakin' wolf that sticks around.

Barbarian: D12 Hit Dice, full Base Attack Bonus, and fast movement all matter at this point. If you think of your barbarian as the axe-swinging, well, barbarian, then he's probably using a greataxe (or some equivalent weapon), is STR-heavy (and possibly CON-heavy as well), and are probably capable of one-shotting almost anything at CR 1 (up to, and including, your archetypal wolf), at least while in rage. At this point, the fact that they get full Hit Dice at 1st level matters more than the fact that they get D12 Hit Dice, and they probably have triple the hit point value of your average caster (and twice everyone else) while in rage, where hit points are still a thing that matters.

Cleric: A Cleric has a D8 hit dice (which is average), 2+Int skills with a shoddy list (but more on that), and no Base Attack Bonus at this level, but has almost everything else that matters. Two good saves, full armor proficiencies, spellcasting that doesn't suck at low levels (Bless is strictly better than the bard's Inspire Courage at this level, and it's not even the best thing on your spell list at core-only 1), and the awesomeness that is domain-granted powers. Seriously, domain powers are the Cleric's versatility at this stage in the game. Want to be more battle-focused? Take the War domain, which offers you Magic Weapon as your bonus spell, and Weapon Focus (your deity's weapon here) for dessert! Want to be a rogue in plate? Disguise Self is better than disguise ever will be, but just for funsies, you get disguise, bluff and hide to pad your weak skill list with! The cleric spell list isn't enough? Pad your spell list with domain spells! Finally, while spontaneous cure spells scale incredibly poorly, this is the one level where a Cure Light Wounds will cure a meaningful percentage of a character's maximum Hit Points.

Fighter: A weak skill list, one good save, and poor class features don't affect the fighter too much at this level; what matters is that the Fighter is likely STR-loaded (and STR is the only attribute that typically applies to damage rolls) and that feats that don't scale are always best at first level. If you have good starting gold, you can possibly finance chain mail or splint mail (depending on your DEX bonus), and even if your feats are something like Weapon Focus and Power Attack, those small bonuses are still enough to matter at this point (the same goes, ostensibly, for Dodge, Combat Expertise, and the like). A Human Fighter played by even a reasonably competent player will likely have at least one trick that can turn the tide of a low-CR encounter (such as Power Attack + Cleave for a STR-loaded fighter leveling a band of mooks, keeping in mind that we're at a point where 2d6+4 on a 16 STR fighter is not only meaningful, but lethal to most; or Improved Trip for taking care of that one Big Bad in the room, since being prone makes a lot of things useless at this stage in the game). D10 Hit Dice and full Base Attack Bonus aren't the absolute best chassis, but they're better than most.

Rogue: Sneak Attack +1d6 is situationally useful, and at this point it can end the life of some poor mook if you're using a sword and have a decent STR bonus (meaning that, in terms of strict damage output, at this level a rogue in the ideal situation is almost as effective as a 2H barbarian or fighter on an average day). Their chassis isn't good (one good save, D6 HD, 0 BAB), but their skill list is the best in the game, and this is a saving grace at entry levels where skillful situations leave most people with their pants down. At this point, the fact that the rogue gets 4x skills at first level is more important than the fact that they get 8+INT in general (meaning that, for a skillful build, dipping rogue at level 1 isn't an unpopular choice in core, even if rogue isn't your first choice for classes in general).

Sorcerer: Your chassis is the worst in the game (D4 HD, poor BAB, one good save, a poor skill list), you have a limited number of spells known, and anything that scales (and as a caster, everything that scales) is at its absolute weakest. You do, however, have a diverse range of options, and can simply spam anything and everything that you have. You may only know a few spells, but you can use any of them when you want to, and you can use each of them as many times as you have spells per day, which means you have less versatility of options, but more practical versatility (in the application of your options). If you take any of Charm Person, Disguise Self, Obscuring Mist, Grease, Hypnotism, Silent Image or Sleep, you'll likely be able to make an impact throughout your entire adventuring day. If you take Mage Armor and Magic Missile, you'll still at least be fairly safe throughout your combats (you'll likely wise up quickly and realize that Mage Armor and a light crossbow are your best friends if your DEX bonus is high enough).

Paladin & Ranger: Each of these classes gets D10 Hit Dice, full Base Attack Bonus and one (niche, or otherwise mediocre) combat ability. Paladins and Rangers have their niche, if the DM feels like giving it to them; a Ranger that has Favored Enemy (human scum) and is playing in a war game and a Paladin that has Smite Evil Scum and is fighting a good vs. evil campaign are going to see some decent use out of their features, though at level 1 Smite Evil only matters if you have a high CHA bonus (though as a Paladin, you definitely want a high CHA bonus). When it comes down to it, in combat neither of these features are strictly as good or as versatile as the Fighter bonus feat at first level, when used intelligently. This and the Fighter's being slightly less MAD (and being STR-loaded) are what make the Fighter better in this stage of the game, though by level 2, the Paladin is already getting features that exceed the equivalent Fighter feats (Divine Grace). The Ranger probably slightly beats out the Paladin because of the ability to select your favored enemy options, better skill list, and two good saves. (The latter stops mattering by level 2, but it definitely matters now.)

Wizard: The Wizard is in a unique predicament at first level, and that's that, unless he has an absurdly high INT score (Gray Elf with maxed INT) or is a specialist, he probably only has two spells per day at this level, plus cantrips. At starting gold, the wizard isn't able to buy his way to vastly greater diversity than the sorcerer, so while the wizard likely has more options, it isn't a game-changer. What is, however, is the limits of the wizard's applications. The wizard who gets two spells per day chooses them in advance of the adventuring day (or prepares empty slots, which guarantees he has his pants down by first combat), and while he can make a difference with those two spell slots, he likely won't survive the adventuring day on the merits of his spells alone. First-level wizards don't qualify for any reserve feats (much less any that matter), so longevity is their death knell here. After the first fight, many wizards are commoners with crossbows.

Monk: To understand exactly why the monk is so far down on this list, you have to understand exactly what it gets and its relative value compared to all that we've compared it to thus far. The monk gets D8 Hit Dice (which is strictly inferior to every melee-oriented character except for the Rogue), 3/4 BAB (see Hit Dice) and three good saves (which is strictly superior to everyone else). Their skill list and skill points are Rogue Lite, but INT is your dump stat (being strictly inferior to STR, DEX, CON and WIS), so you won't be capitalizing on it very well at 4+INT. You get WIS to AC in lieu of armor proficiency, which basically means that a first-level monk with 14 DEX and 14 WIS is mechanically identical to a first-level rogue with 14 DEX and leather armor, only the rogue didn't have to invest a second good roll (or the equivalent point buy) to get it. You get flurry of blows, which is Two-Weapon Fighting with limitations, but the Rogue that picks Two-Weapon Fighting as an entry level feat gets to apply Sneak Attack +1d6 to each attack, making him, again, strictly superior. You get unarmed damage progression that beats your average unarmed strike, but is on par with using a short sword (or equivalent one-handed light weapon) and behind everything else, and you don't get blanket proficiencies of any weapon level (and are technically not proficient with unarmed strikes, though any DM that nerfs the monk deserves to be set on fire, especially if he uses this nitpick). You get Stunning Fist (but 1/day) or Improved Grapple, which is like having a Fighter bonus feat I guess, but the Fighter's probably doing it better. The monk is MAD, almost all its features are strictly inferior to any weapon or armor proficiency... It's a mess.

Bard: ...But not quite as much, at first level, as the bard. The bard gets the rogue's Hit Dice and Base Attack Bonus, but two saves, so its chassis is slightly better for combat than the rogue and slightly worse than the monk (which gets D8 and three good saves). They also get some interesting weapon proficiencies, and that's where the good stuff ends. They get Bardic Music, but only 1/day, and their options for using it are mediocre (Countersong is only really useful against other bards, who at this level don't have sonic attacks yet, Fascinate gives opponents a mediocre skill check penalty, and Inspire Courage is strictly worse than Bless at level 1, and is essentially Concentration in larger combats). That's about it. Oh, and I mentioned this in passing before, but Bards don't get level 1 spells yet. They are much like the Paladin, Ranger and Monk in this regard--the money features don't come online until level 2--but they have the worst chassis among them. At level 1, you are a worse skill monkey than the rogue, and that's your signature feature.

5th: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Fighter

Class-by-class analysis:

Druid: Wild Shape. Third-level spells. Animal companion. Nothing more needs to be said. Even without wilding clasps or wild armor (outside of core, this comes as an armor enhancement and probably won't be attained at level 5), Wild Shape, Summon Nature's Ally III (and other spells, since you're technically padding your spell list with other spells for show) and your animal companion make you a one-man army who is quickly becoming capable of answering any problem simply by being anything. This isn't a "bear-riding bear who summons bears" statement: this is stopping yourself from dying from a sheer drop by flying out of your nosedive.)

Cleric: You get access to third-level spells, including some that really matter. Being evil is what's keeping you ahead of the Wizard at this point, as Animate Dead turns you into Bizarro druid, and Bestow Curse and other debuffs give you some of the more powerful of the low-level save-or-sucks. Your chassis is also strictly better than the wizard, and this is one of the precious last few levels that this still matters for anything, at least in low-to-mid op games.

Wizard: You now have enough spells to have an answer to most situations (even without investing considerable WBL to expand your spell list), and enough spells per day to carry yourself through the average adventuring day without breaking out your crossbow, which has become a spurned lover to you. More importantly, spells that can scale have scaled, so even your offensive options aren't strictly worse than melee at this point (remember when the party fighter laughed at you for taking Shocking Grasp?). You get a lot of bread-and-butter spells at this level, no matter your flavor (Fireball and Lightning Bolt for blasties; Haste, Heroism and Invisibility for buffies; Slow and Dispel Magic for debuffies; Sleet Storm for battlefield control), but you're not quite at the point where you're breaking the game. You're still squishy, but you're capable of protecting yourself in some ways (Mage Armor lasts you most of the day, but Protection from Arrows and Resist Energy get you through those tougher encounters). Also, you can fly and be invisible.

Barbarian: As I said before with the cleric, this is one of the last levels where the chassis still matters. Barbarians get another instance of rage, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense, but mostly it's just their physical numbers that matter at this point (and also the rage). This may be an unpopular decision, since they still only get one attack per round, but I think it's deserved.

Rogue: The Sorcerer may be able to do everything the rogue does at this level, but only by investing all their spells known in the doing. Sneak Attack +3d6 never runs out of daily uses, and they are still skillful.

Sorcerer: Odd-numbered levels make the sorcerer cry. The wizard is up a spell level, and the sorcerer is also lagging behind in spells known, which can be quite shameful. A sorcerer with decent CHA doesn't run out of spells per day at this level, but they may also be stuck with spells that were useful at level 1, but scale poorly or not at all (such as Sleep or Cause Fear).

Bard: Bards are also at their second-level spells at this point, and while their list isn't as fantastic as the sorcerer/wizard, or their spellcasting options as lenient as the cleric or druid, spellcasting is spellcasting. The bard is, out of the box, more skillful than any other caster, and outside of core, skills still matter somewhat, so that's good. Your options are yet limited, but you are filling into the "jack of all trades" role a little more easily.

Paladin: You now have a second use of Smite Evil (and it's scaling... Somewhat), turn undead, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Divine Mount, divine spells... You're as feature-packed as you're ever going to get. Your spellcasting options are fairly weak (about equivalent to most fighter feats in core), but you get more of them, and can switch out ones you don't like. You're slightly better than the ranger at this level because Divine Grace and turn undead make a high CHA score very useful, and your special mount is still better than the ranger's animal companion.

Ranger: The ranger at this level has their first combat style feat, an animal companion, a second favored enemy, and divine spells (if their WIS is high enough). Their core options for spells aren't fantastic, but Charm Animal, Entangle and Resist Energy at least give you some decent options. Your spell options are slightly better than the paladin, but their class features are slightly better at this point.

Monk: Ki Strike allows you to overcome certain damage reduction, your flurry of blows has scaled better than your BAB up to this point, you have purity of body and your second bonus feat, and you still have three good saves. Unfortunately, this is also the last level monks aren't the worst class in the game.

Fighter: Your lack of features are really hurting at this point. Bonus feats only get you so far, and you are still only able to attack once per round. You aren't built as well as a barbarian. You've got nothing special going for you at this point.

10th: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

Class-by-class analysis:

Wizard: At level 7, you got Polymorph, Solid Fog, and Black Tentacles. At level 9, you got Lesser Planar Binding, Teleport, Magic Jar and Baleful Polymorph. You've kinda stopped caring about your D4 HD as well, because you're now a dragon.

Druid: Wild Shape is scaling nicely, but you just can't keep up with the level of sheer power at a wizard's disposal by this point. This will remain true for the rest of the game.

Cleric: You are about on par with the druid in terms of straight spellcasting ability, but you lack the strength of its class features. Divine Power and Righteous Might let you carve up baddies better than your average fighter, and Slay Living and Raise Dead have made you capable of not caring just how alive something is anymore (but at a cost). Spell Resistance and Plane Shift are what are keeping you in the game, here.

Sorcerer: It's kind of hard to tell if the sorcerer is ahead of the cleric or not at this point, simply because the core-only options for a cleric are fairly one-dimensional (lots of buffs to AC, saves, and attack rolls, which the sorcerer stopped caring about awhile back). The sorcerer is coming out on its own, but it lacks the diversity of options; either it's using suboptimal spells to their fullest extent, or it's using optimal tricks in a way that's brutally inefficient for the sorcerer to be doing, because they have a lot of spells per day that won't ever get touched in this regard. A well-played battlefield specialist is probably better than a cleric at this point, but it's close.

Bard: You got your first fourth-level spell! (Assuming CHA 18 or higher.) You now have access to Dominate Person, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement and Summon Monster IV, to name a few, and while it took you longer than the wizard to be able to do most of these things, the fact that you're able to do them allows you to widen the power gap greatly over everything below you. In terms of straight spellcasting ability, nothing beneath you will ever be as good as you are now, at least until the very end game. You also have Bardic Suggestion, and enough uses to mindrape everybody, and Inspire Greatness is pretty cool too. (Inspire Courage just isn't as good in core, ever.)

Rogue: Sneak attack +5d6, evasion, and improved uncanny dodge have made you less vulnerable in combat, and you're still the most skillful in the game, but skills haven't kept up with caster levels very gracefully. You have your first special ability, which you can use on things like Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, Skill Mastery, or Defensive Roll.

Ranger: You're not as strictly combat-effective as the barbarian, but you have evasion now, and you've got second-level spells (and are looking at third). Barkskin, Protection from Energy, Summon Nature's Ally II and the animal buffs are all useful for different things. As for your animal companion, you can now have a Giant Eagle, allowing you to fly about and wreak havoc from the skies. It'll never be as combat effective as a Druid's animal companion, but you do have options.

Barbarian: Damage reduction 2/-- is... Something. Three uses of rage per day mean you're probably in rage whenever it would matter, but you've also the unfortunate drawback of being incomparably weak against a barbarian of just one level higher than you, when your third iterative and greater rage come online. Then again, paladins and rangers get their third iterative and third-level spells at the same time, so the power balance isn't greatly disrupted.

Paladin: You get a few animal buffs and Shield Other, but you're lagging fairly well behind the barbarian and ranger in core. Splat support is really what made the paladin list good.

Fighter: Your feats don't compare to the class features and spells of most of the rest of this list, but at least you're not unarmed and unarmored.

Monk: ...Like the monk. Flurry of blows stopped being quite as good when it started scaling with your BAB, so the fighter is now getting ahead every five levels and you're not.

15th: Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk

Class-by-class analysis:

Wizard: At level 11, you got Planar Binding, True Seeing, Contingency, Mass Suggestion, and mass animal buffs. At level 13, you got Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, Mass Hold Person, Prismatic Spray, Mass Invisibility, and Limited Wish. At level 15, you get Dimensional Lock, Prismatic Wall, Greater Planar Binding, Trap the Soul, Irresistible Dance, and Polymorph Any Object. You're now bending the world over your knee (whilst it is doing the boogie, rest assured).

Druid: Nothing else has changed here. You have better class features than the wizard and cleric, but worse spells than the wizard, and that's keeping you in a solid second.

Cleric: Nothing else has changed here, either. There is enough of a power gap between the cleric and the sorcerer's spellcasting, level-by-level, that the sorcerer is strictly better than the cleric on even levels by virtue of raw power. The cleric's options just aren't good enough in a core-only game to keep pace. Thankfully, this isn't an even level.

Sorcerer: More of the same. Yawn. You're capped at seventh-level spells at this point (sorcerers hate odd numbers), but you've got enough of the lower-level spells known to do at least a few of the world-shatteringly epic tricks available to the wizard at this point. Hopefully you've also traded out most of the spells that you stopped caring about, too.

Bard: You have fifth-level spells (and you get your final spells next level), plus Inspire Greatness and the Song of Freedom. You've done nothing to bridge the gap between yourself and the sorcerer, cleric, druid or wizard, but you're widening the gap between yourself and the rest of the lesser classes considerably.

Ranger: Your spells are starting to matter more. You have fourth-level spells, but your only real bread-and-butter is Freedom of Movement. You have a good skill list and enough tricks to keep pace with the rogue, but it's close.

Rogue: You're just behind the ranger and just ahead of the paladin at this point. Their spellcasting is enough to make a difference in regards to self-buffs and everything like that, and even though you're up to +8d6 sneak attack, you're also at a point where +8d6 just isn't enough to make up for how situational it is to get it at this stage in the game. You're the skill monkey who occasionally has a trick up his sleeve, a (comfortable?) mid-tier class.

Paladin: Holy Sword, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle, and Restoration are all well and good, and four uses of Smite Evil are nice to look at (they're doing +15 damage now), but the power gap between you and the ranger/rogue just aren't going to close. This is the best the paladin will ever get.

Barbarian: Greater rage and scaling damage reduction are nice, but they don't scale well enough to compete with the Paladin's spellcasting.

Fighter: You're just not as good as a barbarian. Sorry.

Monk: Quivering Palm and Diamond Soul are helpful, I suppose, but you just aren't able to match the damage output of a fighter. You're level 15, and you can't even overcome damage reduction as adamantine. Every weapon the fighter has held has been doing that for the last five levels, and is also +3 Flaming Burst or something. Too many of your class features are just too little, too late.

20th: Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Monk

Class-by-class analysis:

Wizard: Time Stop! Imprisonment! Weird! Shapechange! Astral Projection! Mass Hold Monster! Gate!

Sorcerer: Any three of the wizard tricks listed above, plus most of the tricks available to the wizard below. The sorcerer actually benefits from a core game in regards to the relative power level between the sorcerer and the prepared casters, because the prepared casters just don't have the sheer number of available spells that splat support gave them. That advantage is narrowed. What you're left with, then, is the undeniable fact that the sorcerer is still pulling spells from the single best spell list in the game, and we're now at a point where that alone is enough to push it above two of the big three at level 20.

Cleric: Gate! Miracle! True Resurrection! The cleric that uses these three wisely can compete with a sorcerer, but a sorcerer can do two of these three (and the third by proxy using Wish), and another broken trick, such as Time Stop. Actually, in all fairness, so can the cleric, if they choose the right domain.

Druid: Shapechange! Er... Summon Monster IX? Well, I guess you can still be a Huge elemental.

Bard - Monk: The only thing that's changed is that the barbarian's Mighty Rage ekes it out ahead of the paladin of equal level. All the unique features have been spoken for save for the monk's, which can be summed up under the "too little, too late" category.

No math was used in the making of this post. It did require some reasoning, however, but I think that's what made it more accurate than a strict mathematical assessment.[/spoiler

Very good, very rational post. It's an entirely fair class-by-class view of Core classes, that is free from the knee-jerk reactions of those who think Wizards are gods, always, and those that think that the Martial types are somehow balanced compared to them.

The point being that this is the best analysis I've seen, explaining in massive detail not only which classes change, and how, but also why. Which is very important I think for anybody to really understand the Tier system, and the abilities of classes at various levels. I disagree in a few rankings here and there, but overall I'm pretty much in total agreement.

[dextercorvia]

what I do not understand are the people that put wizard on 1st place even on first level. Do you only read optimisation or do you really play this game? No Dm worth his salt will let you rest often enough to be better than the fighter.


I'm not going to claim it should go in the number one slot at first level, but that is about the only thing I disagreed with Lonely Tylenol about.l


Outside of core only, my 1st level wizard has 4-5 1st level spells per day, and I know how to use my 0 level spells to good effect (Launch Item + Tanglefoot Bag, Alchemist's Fire, or Acid). Likewise, I can have a reserve feat or some other feat granted ability to keep me from breaking out the crossbow. How many encounters does a DM need to grind a 1st level party through to be 'worth his salt'?

In addition, outside of core, I can boost my CL so that even blasting options are encounter ending at level 1.

I also have either Abrupt Jaunt, or a familiar to share a buff or Light of Lunia with (doubling my spell power for that encounter). I will probably have Abrupt Jaunt, which is 4-5 times per day that I can just say, "No, I'm not there." That more than compensates for the 6 missing hp. Even if only half of those attacks would have hit a fighter, that is at least 6hp worth.

Druid and Crusader have offense/defense that are comparable or better at level 1. Cleric has better defense, but it is lacking in offensive options at level 1. Barbarian will smash anything it can reach, but is hurting for defense on the front line, and will suck more of the healing resources (which are really coming from the cleric at level one) than any other frontliner except the Ranger. Please, if you have built a Ranger at this level use a damn bow. Think of the cleric, who would like to use one of his 1st level spells today for something other than Cure Light Wounds.

People often forget that HP are often more of a limiting factor than any other resource at level one. Fighter goes down to negatives from a lucky shot by an Orc Barbarian in round one. Wizard drops a grease, so the Rogue can Sneak Attack with his bow, and then the cleric spends two of his precious class resources on getting the fighter back to full. He stands up and his player says, let's go guys, "I can go all day. I never run out of sword swings." Unless he is lucky with the cleric's domain choice, or he is an AnthroBat, that cleric is now down to Cure Minor's. The alternative is for the Cleric to only prepare Lesser Vigor, since it is more efficient healing, but that still means that he can't do any of the cool stuff he wanted to do with his spells slots.

In a party without a dedicated healer, which would you rather play? The guy with class features and some HP standing between you and death, or the guy with HP and 6 more HP?

[Manateee]

My Maths show that Fighters are better spellcasters than Wizards at all levels. You can trust me because it's Maths. Don't worry about the formulae, because they're Maths.

[Chronos]

Outside of core only, my 1st level wizard has 4-5 1st level spells per day, and I know how to use my 0 level spells to good effect (Launch Item + Tanglefoot Bag, Alchemist's Fire, or Acid).4 I can see, with a specialist (or elf racial substitution) grey elf with point-buy or a lot of luck to 20 Int. But how in the world do you get 5?

[Manateee]

4 I can see, with a specialist (or elf racial substitution) grey elf with point-buy or a lot of luck to 20 Int. But how in the world do you get 5?
Focus on the solution, you must. :p

[Siosilvar]

Focus[ed specialist]

1 Wizard spell + 2 (20 Int) - 1 (focused specialist) = 2 spells
3 Specialist spells

2 spells + 3 specialist slots = 5 spells per day.

[sreservoir]

sell your spellbook, buy a new spellbook, pay to copy a few spells you might care to have, and take the rest of the money to buy scrolls of mnemonic enhancer?

also, elf generalist domain wizard.

[Lonely Tylenol]

And that is why a quantitative, math based analysis with points assigned to features doesn't work as well as such a qualitative analysis in this particular situation. Too much of the class power can't be given a meaningful value; the decisions are arbitrary... but I definitely agree with this post completely, though! OP, if you can get your math to end up closer to this post, you will be more accurate...

Thanks. :smallsmile:


I have to go with Lonely Tylenol here. I´d like to see this for all basic classes (and as a graph, so not to have this "next-lvl-they-get-something-but-now-they-are-still-crap"-situation come up that often). Could be a very good referential threat, this one.

You mean something like this?

{table=head]
Class | 01 | 05 | 10 | 15 | 20
Barbarian | 02 | 04 | 08 | 09 | 08
Bard | 11 | 07 | 05 | 05 | 05
Cleric | 03 | 02 | 03 | 03 | 03
Druid | 01 | 01 | 02 | 02 | 04
Fighter | 04 | 11 | 10 | 10 | 10
Monk | 10 | 10 | 11 | 11 | 11
Paladin | 08 | 08 | 09 | 08 | 09
Ranger | 07 | 09 | 07 | 06 | 06
Rogue | 05 | 05 | 06 | 07 | 07
Sorcerer | 06 | 06 | 04 | 04 | 02
Wizard | 09 | 03 | 01 | 01 | 01[/table]

Where the X axis is the class, the Y axis is the level, and the intercept point is the class's ranking within that level?

I don't think I could do much better than a table representation, honest.

If you think I should try and expand it as such, I could try, but it's worth noting that my level of system mastery isn't nearly as complete as some others (meaning I could probably tell you about where most base races place from my experience, but my knowledge of some alternative systems, such as Pact Magic or Inspiration, are beyond the scope of my knowledge).

Did you also want a 1-20 as opposed to key points? That might be a little harder, but it also clears up a lot of the problems of "well, next level X gets Y", and is also a little fairer to full BAB classes, who were assessed just before each new iterative attack (this actually matters in some games at level 6).


what I do not understand are the people that put wizard on 1st place even on first level. Do you only read optimisation or do you really play this game? No Dm worth his salt will let you rest often enough to be better than the fighter.

In all fairness, if you tread into ACF territory, Immediate Magic (PHB II, p. 68), Focused Specialist (CM, p. 34), Domain Wizard (UA, p. 57), Spontaneous Divination (CC, p. 53) and Specialist variants (UA, p. 59-64) all give the Wizard some pretty decent options at level 1. A specialist wizard essentially has three spell slots (1 normal, 1 bonus spell, 1 specialist slot), but a focused specialist has four (1 bonus spell, 3 specialist slots), five if they're a Gray Elf with 20 INT, which means if you chose useful spells from a useful school at level 1, you're basically a sorcerer. Already that addresses the complaint of longevity pretty well. Similarly, Spontaneous Divination tricks allow you to basically cast from your list spontaneously.

If you're a Conjurer, not only does this mean you can fill those three specialist slots with the likes of Mage Armor, Summon Monster I, Grease and Obscuring Mist (and them's just the Core spells), but you also get access to Abrupt Jaunt, which you can use to escape when someone closes in on you in melee, which addresses the issue of survivability.

An abjurer specialist gets an extra spell slot for something like Shield or Protection from W/X/Y/Z (or three if they so choose), plus Urgent Shield, for a +2 bonus to AC as an immediate action, or energy resistance 5 for an hour once per day at the expense of a familiar.

People dig on evokers, but strictly at first level, a focused specialist evoker who takes Energy Affinity (fire) gets four uses of Kelgore's Fire Bolt and Burning Hands, each of which would do 2d4 damage in a cone/2d6 damage to a target, at a level when your average enemy has 4 or 5 HP and the average damage from these attacks would kill them. Oh, and if Bloodline of Fire is your first-level feat? Fuggeddaboutit. That's 4d4/4d6 of damage right there; you're ending encounters at that point (both spells are Reflex Half, but if you find that daunting, Lesser Orb of Fire is 2d8 and is no save, though it only benefits from Bloodline of Fire anyway).

Necromancers can get a human skeleton cohort instead of a familiar. At first level, a necromancer has a combat-ready minion with DR 5/bludgeoning and immunity to cold, and a base AC of 13 (plus any equipment you give to it). It scales with you as you level. A focused specialist Necromancer is also probably using Cause Fear at least twice out of his three school slots, and the spell is no slouch at this level; or, if they choose, they can pick up Enhanced Undead, which benefits them later.

Transmuters can give themselves a burrow, fly or swim speed as an immediate action, or +2 to an ability score as a free action (technically an immediate action with how it's worded, but nevertheless).

In other words: if the Wizard player is able to dig through splat books and find the best character options within the scope of that class, even level 1 is possible to overcome quite easily. Dextercorvia is entirely right in that regard. (You might choose to place such a wizard at around Cleric level at level 1; above or below depends largely on what school they're specializing in and what features they take.)


Very good, very rational post. It's an entirely fair class-by-class view of Core classes, that is free from the knee-jerk reactions of those who think Wizards are gods, always, and those that think that the Martial types are somehow balanced compared to them.

The point being that this is the best analysis I've seen, explaining in massive detail not only which classes change, and how, but also why. Which is very important I think for anybody to really understand the Tier system, and the abilities of classes at various levels. I disagree in a few rankings here and there, but overall I'm pretty much in total agreement.

Thanks. :smallsmile: I know some people are going to disagree on some points, but I hope on the whole this was a fairly commonsense list.


I'm not going to claim it should go in the number one slot at first level, but that is about the only thing I disagreed with Lonely Tylenol about.l


Outside of core only, my 1st level wizard has 4-5 1st level spells per day, and I know how to use my 0 level spells to good effect (Launch Item + Tanglefoot Bag, Alchemist's Fire, or Acid). Likewise, I can have a reserve feat or some other feat granted ability to keep me from breaking out the crossbow. How many encounters does a DM need to grind a 1st level party through to be 'worth his salt'?

In addition, outside of core, I can boost my CL so that even blasting options are encounter ending at level 1.

I also have either Abrupt Jaunt, or a familiar to share a buff or Light of Lunia with (doubling my spell power for that encounter). I will probably have Abrupt Jaunt, which is 4-5 times per day that I can just say, "No, I'm not there." That more than compensates for the 6 missing hp. Even if only half of those attacks would have hit a fighter, that is at least 6hp worth.

Well, in core, you have none of this.

CL-boosting doesn't happen in core; the feats just don't exist for it. Reserve feats are in Complete Mage, and Abrupt Jaunt is an ACF from Player's Handbook II (which, eerily, is not regarded as core, nor is it SRD content). Launch Item and Launch Bolt are both in the Spell Compendium.

Further, without CL boosting, or other such tricks, you aren't using a reserve feat at level 1, since all of them at least require "the ability to cast 2nd-level spells." So even if you expand to Core and Completes, you're likely not getting second-level spells and a reserve feat at level 1, unless you're being allowed to take flaws (which are outside of Core and Completes).

For all intents and purpose, the practical limits of what you can have as a Wizard as per my class-by-class analyses is concerned can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm), here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm). And whatever pages of the SRD you use for items.

I think I made some offhand mention of reserve feats in my CBC, which was probably a mistake. Sorry.

[dextercorvia]

All you need for Fiery Burst is Complete Arcane and Complete Mage.

Even in Core, with 4 1st level spells per day, I put it in the middle of the pack. Gray Elf is still an option. It is more fragile, but definitely a force to be reckoned with. It essentially a Barbarian in offense, its lack of durability offset by the fact that it doesn't have to be in reach of the enemy.

[Lonely Tylenol]

All you need for Fiery Burst is Complete Arcane and Complete Mage.

You're going to have to explain this one to me.


Even in Core, with 4 1st level spells per day, I put it in the middle of the pack. Gray Elf is still an option. It is more fragile, but definitely a force to be reckoned with. It essentially a Barbarian in offense, its lack of durability offset by the fact that it doesn't have to be in reach of the enemy.

With Core, we're still talking about the necessity of min/maxing to get four spells per day. Assuming equal optimization, your paladin and ranger are going to be slightly better for level 1 as well, and they still don't have longevity issues or 4+CON hit points.

I'm not saying that Wizards at level 1 are always going to be terrible. I'm saying that, in a strictly Core environment, they are definitely more restricted than the average class at level 1.

[dextercorvia]

You're going to have to explain this one to me.
Complete Arcane has Precocious Apprentice. Complete Mage has Focused Specialist and Fiery Burst.



With Core, we're still talking about the necessity of min/maxing to get four spells per day. Assuming equal optimization, your paladin and ranger are going to be slightly better for level 1 as well, and they still don't have longevity issues or 4+CON hit points.

I'm not saying that Wizards at level 1 are always going to be terrible. I'm saying that, in a strictly Core environment, they are definitely more restricted than the average class at level 1.

You listed Wizard at third to last place at first level, which I disagree with. I think they belong right there along side the Sorcerer. Same chassis, and I happen to think that WotC actually balanced the spontaneous short list vs. prepared long list really well at first level (and that level only). Scribe Scroll might give the Wizard an advantage, but that is hard to use so early. Int is a better stat than Cha, simply because of skill points, but these are relatively minor points. The only advantage that the Sorcerer has at first level is his 4 spells per day with any reasonable Charisma. But if neither of his two spells known is useful in one particular encounter, then he is no better off than a Low-Op Specialist with only 3 spells, who ran out.

Again, the main advantage of Paladin and Ranger at level 1, is that if someone else can patch them up, then they can stand in the front and be a damage rod again. They have the slight advantage of being able to use wands of cure light wounds, but that probably won't come into play until level 2.

[Phaederkiel]

First: I meant core.

I play an 20 nt (via some dm meddling) human beguiler 1 / specialist focused conjurer atm. abrupt jaunt, all the evil things.

I also have very little ability to end encounters on my own. Spellscrolls seem pretty scarce, so i have mainly the list I started with. Grease, benevolent transposition, shield, blockade. Useful things, all of them. Honestly, i am loathe to put some blasting spell into my list, since I do not know when i get other spells.

So perhaps I am very much wrong, but a simple day with 6 or 7 encounters (social ones included) means hard rationing of spells, even with a complete first lvl beguiler list as an added resource.


and abrupt jaunt is absurd. If your dm lets you take this, he will allow the druid greenbounds.

and even with AJ power, a simple arrow from an unseen opponent can kill you.

[dextercorvia]

Did you see the guy last week or the week before. He was playing a 1st level Wizard against a party of level 3's (Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue). He got a bunch of advice, and tried several times. Of course, he lost a couple of times, but he did win once. And my point, the reason he won that time, was Color Spray. It wasn't the dragonwrought cheese, or anything else. He hit them with a DC15 Color Spray, and they all fell down (easily attainable with Spell Focus as your feat). Everything else he did was pointless. He could have finished the job with a Scythe, at most needing a second Color Spray.

I would like to see a level 1 Barbarian present such a challenge to a level 3 party. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to run the other side.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Complete Arcane has Precocious Apprentice. Complete Mage has Focused Specialist and Fiery Burst.

Ah, yes, Precocious Apprentice. I forgot that was CArc.

Very well; outside of Core (even if only Completes are added), Wizards (and Sorcerers for that matter) just stop caring what other people think, even at level 1, though I've already defended that viewpoint in this thread.


You listed Wizard at third to last place at first level, which I disagree with. I think they belong right there along side the Sorcerer. Same chassis, and I happen to think that WotC actually balanced the spontaneous short list vs. prepared long list really well at first level (and that level only). Scribe Scroll might give the Wizard an advantage, but that is hard to use so early. Int is a better stat than Cha, simply because of skill points, but these are relatively minor points. The only advantage that the Sorcerer has at first level is his 4 spells per day with any reasonable Charisma. But if neither of his two spells known is useful in one particular encounter, then he is no better off than a Low-Op Specialist with only 3 spells, who ran out.

I regard ranger, paladin and wizard as being rather close, being that, without optimization, they may find a niche, but they're not necessarily going to carry the day.

With specialization and proper min/maxing, the wizard is up there with the sorcerer (though there isn't enough of a difference to make either of them really better than a first-level Rogue), but then, the paladin moves up all the same. (The ranger doesn't.)


Again, the main advantage of Paladin and Ranger at level 1, is that if someone else can patch them up, then they can stand in the front and be a damage rod again. They have the slight advantage of being able to use wands of cure light wounds, but that probably won't come into play until level 2.

Notably, paladins also have the benefit of being STR-loaded. A paladin with 18 STR and 14 CON still has 12 hit points and swings for 2d6+6 with a greatsword, and can be done with any race and the same point buy investment as a wizard with 18 INT and 14 CON, who has half as many hit points and gets Magic Missile for 1d4+1 instead. Further, a paladin's armor proficiency means they'll beat a wizard with Mage Armor unless that wizard also has a good DEX bonus (and there's nothing stopping the Paladin from having that same DEX bonus at WBL, unless they opt for Smite use instead).

Let's put all this in perspective here:

Say your run-of-the-mill Core-only wizard was fairly well-optimized, Gray Elf conjurer with 20 INT and four spells per day. He bans evocation and enchantment, because he knows those schools are the least optimized (ostensibly). He prepares Mage Armor, Grease, Color Spray and Expeditious Retreat, because even if he had damage spells, he knows they would be meaningless at this level, since anything that scales by level has a multiple of 1 at this point. Mage Armor is a pre-buff, and a necessary one at this stage in the game, so he casts it, and is down to three spells. (This is mark one against a sorcerer of equal level, who would need to use one of his two spells known to do the same.)

The first encounter is against a group of kobolds. Fortunately, the wizard read the Monster Manual entry on kobolds, and knows they have a weak Will save! Color Spray, with its DC 16, knocks two of them unconscious (the third makes his save; nonsense, he screams in his head), but it's okay, because the Paladin of Pelor strikes the third down with his greatsword. He can coup de grace the others (they're still unconscious), and he does. He's feeling pretty awesome right now: he's savvy and optimized; he can end an encounter with a mean glare; he's a wizard, Harry.

He walks in through the entrance of the ruins shortly after, and he is faced with a pair of menacing Orcs. Gulp! He know Orcs are strong, and he is not, and it's a big enough deal to matter at this point. Luckily, he won initiative (whatever that means), and he happens to have a spell for that. They're spread out too far to catch both with Grease, but he does do get one, and he slips and falls. The second charges him, but the Paladin takes him out with his attack of opportunity, which is great, too, because the Orc's falchion would do 2d4+4 damage, and he has 6 HP, and he knows enough basic arithmetic to know that even the poorest of rolls, 1+1+4, is enough to stagger him, and any better (at 15/16 odds) is enough to knock him to the negatives! What's worse, the Orc on the ground has a greataxe, and our intrepid hero suspects he might have class levels, and he's getting up. He's getting up! What do I do? Our hero is out of first-level spells save for Expeditious Retreat (the panic panic button, which is looking nice right now), and he banned enchantment, so Daze is out of the question. He could ready his crossbow, but his DEX bonus is poor and he has no Base Attack Bonus, and shooting into prone suffers a -4 penalty, so that's not likely to do anything. He could base the Orc and try to hit him in melee, but what if he misses? The Orc could cleave through him like butter! (What if he has Barbarian levels and Power Attack?!) Plus, you dumped STR, like any properly min-maxed wizard would, so your quarterstaff (which doesn't count against WBL) is only good for 1d6-1 damage, and wouldn't kill this Orc anyway. What do I do, what do I do?!

Oh. He fell back down.

Phew!

On his initiative, the paladin walks up and strikes him down where he lays. Unlike you, he has a +9 to hit someone who's prone, and the Orc's AC is only 13 or so. With 2d6+6 damage per successful hit, pretty much anything his sword touches turns to muck, which is great for him; he hasn't even used that one daily use of Smite Evil yet as a result. He's saving it for the Orc leader, who he suspects might have two HD.

Well! That certainly was exciting! Our hero managed to get as far as the entrance to the ruins the Orcs were using for their war camp, and what's more, he didn't get hit into the negatives even once! He's just about ready to call it a day; Mage Armor is just about to expire (after all, even an hour/level buff only lasts for an hour at level one), you're down to Expeditious Retreat and cantrips, and you'd rather not waste crossbow bolts with your paltry +1 to-hit bonus. Time to pack it in for the night.

"Pack it in?" your paladin friend says. "But I'm just getting started! I've got all my hit points, nary a chink in my armor, and my sword arm is nowhere near tired. I'm ready to clear this entire camp and rid the village of this menace!"

"I dunno... I'm feeling kinda... Tired."

"It's 11 in the morning."

"Yeah, well..."

"That's okay," the paladin says. "You find your way back to the village. I'll take care of it from here."

On your way back, you are attacked by a single dog. You Expeditious Retreat away. That still counts as clearing the encounter, right?

Right?

At level 1, there are three major problems with every wizard:

1) Wizards lack longevity. You have between two and four spells of whatever kind, depending on your level of optimization; higher optimization can help overcome this hurdle somewhat by giving you more spells.

2) Your spells may, or may not, be useful for solving the particular problem that you're having. Your mileage may vary based on how savvy you are at selecting your spells. Higher optimization, again, can help alleviate this problem by selecting the most powerful of the spells at your disposal.

3) Even if you have a decent quantity of spells at your arsenal, and you make all the smartest choices, at level 1, without any truly encounter-ending spells at your disposal (a failed save on Color Spray is the closest thing you've got at this point), you're still playing second fiddle to whatever greatsword-wielding thug you manage to hide yourself behind. You need them to make bad guys fall down, and if you're fortunate enough to make bad guys fall down yourself, you still need them to make sure those bad guys don't get back up. This problem corrects itself in time, but in core, no amount of optimization can solve this problem at the first level (unless you plan on ending every encounter by getting close enough to Color Spray everyone, hoping everyone fails their save, and then coup de gracing everyone afterward, which is quite the gamble).

At level 1, the numbers game is more critical to the success and failure of your character and party than any other level in the game, and wizards, at this level, are terrible in the numbers game.

[olentu]

Everyone lacks longevity at level 1.

[zlefin]

it should be quite possible to figure reasonable mathematical approximations of the values of various class features; especially by applying some in specific cases. Valuation of clusters of features would be somewhat harder;
and of course a lot of features have an inherent variance depending on the campaign/setting their used in (like favored enemy is a lot better with a campaign focused on an enemy type).
Unfortunately, I don't have the math skill to properly come up with a formula myself; i didn't study statistics much, and linear regression is more than what little I learned; let alone more complicated techniques. I also don't have matlab or some other math program to help with the calculations.

Also, i wish people would stop saying linear and quadratic! while the sentiment has some value; the scaling is in fact emphatically not linear nor quadratic for any class.
The intended scaling, based on the CR to character level challenge equivalencies; is to have exponential scaling; with the base of sqrt(2)
In fact; I find the wizards and other casters tend to exceed this, having a higher exponential growth rate;
whereas melee seems much lower, and i'm not sure wehther it's having a low base to the exponent, or is a polynomial of some medium high order (at least x^3 i'd say, with lesser terms covering the lower level issues)
Also, I find that WBLmancy represents a significant portion of the contribution to the power formula; i'm not sure exactly how significant, but without WBLmancy I think many martial classes resort to low order polynomial scaling.

and it would be ncie to see what OPs formulae are; to better assess alternatives.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Everyone lacks longevity at level 1.

The Druid, Barbarian and similar classes much less so.

[TheMeMan]

Did you see the guy last week or the week before. He was playing a 1st level Wizard against a party of level 3's (Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue). He got a bunch of advice, and tried several times. Of course, he lost a couple of times, but he did win once. And my point, the reason he won that time, was Color Spray. It wasn't the dragonwrought cheese, or anything else. He hit them with a DC15 Color Spray, and they all fell down (easily attainable with Spell Focus as your feat). Everything else he did was pointless. He could have finished the job with a Scythe, at most needing a second Color Spray.

I would like to see a level 1 Barbarian present such a challenge to a level 3 party. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to run the other side.

You are failing to note a few key points.

First:

1. He was extremely lucky in initiative. He beat out three other characters, one who I can only imagine was Dex-focused, in initiative. This was vital. This goes beyond what a wizard is capable of controlling.

2. He was extremely lucky with his Color-spray. DC 15 is largely a 50/50 for both the Cleric and Fighter, and only worrisome for the Rogue. The fact that all three fail this is an massive stroke of luck, beyond what a Wizard is naturally capable of controlling.

3. For some reason, I have yet to fathom, the party were bunched up. If they were spread out pretty much at all, the colorspray would have hit only one or two of them. This, again, was beyond what a wizard can control, and once again luck.

The wizard won because of the luck, and nothing else. The fact that he won one out of three, and the other two he admitted were complete trounce-fests proves this. Such an example proves the Wizard is God at first no more than a Fighter one-shotting each of three wizards at level 1 because he won intiative and succeeds each of the saves for the spells they DO throw at him(Or what have you). The example is poor at best, because so much of the event was determined by luck(As admitted by the poster himself).

Further, he used items that any player can get, in particular Alchemical Fire and some other items(Oil, I think). Actually ending the fight was determined not by spells, but by mundane items freely available to any class.

[olentu]

The Druid, Barbarian and similar classes much less so.

Well of course druid.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Did you see the guy last week or the week before. He was playing a 1st level Wizard against a party of level 3's (Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue). He got a bunch of advice, and tried several times. Of course, he lost a couple of times, but he did win once. And my point, the reason he won that time, was Color Spray. It wasn't the dragonwrought cheese, or anything else. He hit them with a DC15 Color Spray, and they all fell down (easily attainable with Spell Focus as your feat). Everything else he did was pointless. He could have finished the job with a Scythe, at most needing a second Color Spray.

I would like to see a level 1 Barbarian present such a challenge to a level 3 party. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to run the other side.

I missed this post.

The problem is that this is, for the most part, nothing that we didn't already know: wizards, even at level 1, have the potential to end an encounter, but the scope and effectiveness of this potential is very limited. TheMeMan covered the reasons why sheer dumb luck played at least as much of a role as Color Spray's mind-blowing awesomeness (and to the point of ending encounters, Color Spray really is your one trick), but what I really want to know is how this completely ended the encounter, as a party of three creatures with 3 HD are only subject to the blinding and stunning portions of Color Spray on a failed save, neither of which renders a party of 3 HD humanoids helpless long enough to coup de grace the lot of them.

You're also missing the point, here, somewhat. The reason the barbarian is so incredibly effective at ECL 1 is because you're not fighting swaths of creatures with 3 or more HD. A CR-appropriate encounter (or even over-CR) will typically use creatures of one or two Hit Dice, without the "maximize the first Hit Dice" rule that PCs typically use. If the barbarian is using a two-handed weapon, then the damage from his strength modifier alone will put most creatures in a CR-appropriate encounter in the negatives, and the average damage done by a greataxe- or greatsword-wielding barbarian with 18 STR will drop a wolf (which is the upper-end of power for a CR1 creature) to 0 in one hit. Meanwhile, there is no creature capable of dropping this same barbarian in one hit, unless it's another barbarian statted out equivalently (and even then, only on a well above-average roll on the 2d6, which is what makes him unique against a fighter of the same level and attributes).

But I'll humor you: if I had a group of four level 3 PCs (rogue, cleric, fighter, wizard?), all huddled together within striking range and using incredibly poor tactics (as the level 1 wizard obviously did), my human barbarian, level 1, 18 STR and 16 CON, taking Power Attack and Cleave as his first-level feats (if flaws were available, this hypothetical barbarian would take a flaw and be either a wood elf or dwarf), charges the rogue or wizard, power attacking with his greatsword. He has a +6 to hit (+7 if Wood Elf under the rules above), and swings for 2d6+8 damage. The average damage for this attack averages to about 15. That's enough to drop a wizard with 14 CON (who has average Hit Dice advancement beyond 1) or a rogue with 12 CON (who has the same) in the negatives, at which point you cleave into the other of the two that you didn't hit and hope to take two down in one shot. You're now a level 1 barbarian fighting a level 3 cleric and level 3 fighter.

The odds don't favor me even in this most favorable of situations, but then, the odds didn't particularly favor the level 1 wizard either. Through sheer dumb luck and persistence, I'll eventually wind up with a situation where the cleric and fighter miss enough for me to strike everyone dead. Either way, in an average situation with average to-hit and damage rolls, a barbarian who wins initiative can and will cleave through half of a party using equally poor tactics as those that fought the wizard.

EDIT: Why the level 3 wizard didn't just prepare Swift Expeditious Retreat (or prebuff Expeditious Retreat) and Magic Missile is beyond me.

[Phaederkiel]

TheMeMan nicely sums up some of the problems of that fight:

1. initative (if the other party wasn´t as dumb as they obviously were, they would have packed imp ini at least 3 times, one for the fighter, one for the rogue and one, via time domain, for the cleric)

2. their dumb unluck with that saving throw.

3. their unimaginable stupid tactics.


then there is the issue of wbl, which was simply cheated by that wizard. He would not have won without the cheated items.


and then, there is a another point:

there was a lvl 3 wizard, which somehow lost against that lvl 1 caster. Sure, he probably was evocation only; but tell true: when you have only 6 hitpoints, are you more afraid of a grease or a magic missile? This wizard was nearly optimized for the task at hand.

that wizard won because of initative.

A lion pouncing whirling frenzy barbarian with improved initative and Instantaneous Rage (or PA and cleave, but I think the third hit isnt as good as starting first) should be able to eat at least 2 characters.


and this barbarian would be able to fight another encounter afterwards, whereas the wizard is spent.

[Phaederkiel]

Or even imp ini and (shudder) blooded, if you think its debateable if instanteneous rage helps you win initiative.

[dextercorvia]

I agree that winning initiative was key. Also, having all of them fail the save was fortuitous. I'm saying that a core wizard could replicate those results probably 1 time out of 4.

I was forgetting that at 3HD they wouldn't be unconscious, so you'd have to do something other than CdG.

I'm saying a 1 in 4 chance of completely bypassing an (admittedly unoptimized) EL7 challenge is good offensive capability. The fact that he probably will only take out half of them in the first round is a good thing.

[Phaederkiel]

core means: no nerveskitter.
without nerveskitter, it is even less probable than the

1 in 4 you propose

which I do not know how you arrive at.


chance to win against non-optimized party´s ini
Wizard +3 to ini
against
Rogue +4 to ini, hopefully +8 (about 3 of 10)
Fighter +2 to ini (about 6 of 10)
cleric -1 to ini (about 7of 10)
wizard +2 to ini (about 6 of 10)

about 756 of 10 000. the chances to defeat all of them are about less than one percent. The most probable to ge to act before you is the rogue, who can easily kill you as long as you are flatfooted.
Note that I gave your wizard a higher ini than everyone else, because he optimized fighting adventurers, and they didn´t optimize fighting him.



so, less than one percent probability to defeat 4 peoples ini at once.

The saving throw is more probable at:

lets say dc 16
against:
fighter +1 (you get him about 7 of ten times)
rogue +1 (about 7 of ten)
Cleric +7 (about 4 of ten)
wizard+2 (about 7 of ten)

about 1327 of 10 000 chance to get them all against an party who neglected their will saves (except the cleric), oblivious of the upcoming fight.

wow, baby, about 1,3 percent chance to get them all.

but now what happens if we multiply the chances that you both get the ini and then all 4 of them in one spell?

1 003 212 of 1 000 000 000 as in 0,001 percent

him doing what he did was a minor miracle, without nerveskitter it becomes
a major one.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This IS where the math is crucial. It's worth noting, however, that the numbers are not quite so astronomical: 756 against 10,000 is a ratio of .0756 (or 7.56%), and the odds of beating the save DC of the four party members is 1372 against 10,000, which equates to 13.72%. The odds of beating the entire party at both would be 1,037,232 against 100,000,000, which is actually about 1.307%, NOT .001%; that is to say, the odds of beating the enemy party in initiative (about 7%, or 1/13) and all their save DCs (13%, or 1/7) is 1/(7x13), which is about 1/100, or 1%. (This simplified estimate gets you a win chance of 1.099%.)

You're adding a 0 against dextercorvia on every calculation.

That said, the ACCURATE numbers are still closer to 1 in 100 than 1 in 4, but I'll be generous and skew this completely in favor of the level 1: He's a Gray Elf with 32 Point Buy, invested into double 18s in INT and DEX, and dumping everything else (the Wizard need only survive that fight, and his hit point total is meaningless in the doing, so you can dump CON). Your feat is Improved Initiative. The enemy party is using the Elite Array (Fighter STR 15, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8; Rogue STR 12, DEX 15, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 10; Wizard STR 8, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 15, WIS 12, CHA 10; Cleric STR 13, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 12), have no relevant buffs or feats for the purposes of this fight, and are packed together like sardines.

The numbers are thus:
{table=head]
Character | Init Mod. | Save DC | Save Mod.
Wizard 1 (you) | +8 | DC16 | ---
Fighter 3 | +1 | --- | +2
Rogue 3 | +2 | --- | +0
Wizard 3 | +2 | --- | +4
Cleric 3 | -1 | --- | +5[/table]

Initiative:
The initiative difference for the Wizard 1 is +6 against the Wizard 3 and Rogue 3; +7 against the Fighter 3; and +9 against the Cleric 3. Since opposed rolls are a tricky business and I'm not an expert at plotting out probability points, I'll use the chart found here (http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/aff/57/aft/445181/afv/topic/Default.aspx) to plot the odds of winning initiative. According to the chart, the odds of winning initiative are about (.77 * .77 * .80 * .87) against one, give or take, which amounts to a 41.256% chance of winning the initiative roll.

Will Save vs. Color Spray
This is a little easier for me to calculate. Color Spray has a fixed Save DC (10 + 5 for INT modifier + 1 for spell level), so the save roll is easy to calculate. In order of greatest to worst, the rogue succeeds his save on a 16 or higher, a 25% chance of success (75% chance of failure); the fighter succeeds 35% of the time, and fails 65%; the Wizard, 45% and 55%; the Cleric, an even 50/50%. Thus, your odds of all four failing the save are (.75 * .65 * .55 * .50) against 1, which equates to 13.406%.

Summary
Your odds of winning initiative are 41.256%, and of beating all their saves are 13.406%, so the odds of both happening all at the same time are (.41256 * .13406) against 1, which equates to 5.553%.

This is all assuming, of course, that you have all of them packed together, they have a lower point buy, no magic items of any kind, nor any feats, buffs, or special abilities to assist them. If you didn't prebuff (you die in one hit anyway, and action economy is not in your favor), you have, as a Grey Elf conjurer, three spells remaining. The entire enemy party is stunned for 1 round and blinded for 1d4 rounds. This is as good as it gets.

The question still remains, though: how do you finish the fight?

For every successful instance of Color Spray buys you a few rounds of total concealment (the stun duration expires after your next action, so action economy is a net zero: you wasted one turn to delay their actions for exactly one turn, so the blinding condition is the only one that even has a chance of lasting through your next turn). You can't coup de grace a stunned foe, and since you dumped STR, the absolute best you are going to get in terms of damage would be 2d6-1, or 1d12-1, but even against a blinded and stunned foe, your hit chance is mediocre thanks to your -1 to-hit. A crossbow could hit easier (thanks to your min-maxing on DEX), but does only 1d8 and needs a move action to reload. With average Hit Dice for all three levels (that's right--these baddies with PC class levels don't even have max Hit Dice at level 1), the Fighter has 23 HP, the Cleric has 20, the Rogue 17, the Wizard 11, so you aren't going to do anything meaningful in your one round. As for you? You have 3 HP, so you'd better be damn well sure that none of them close on you! (Even with just a short sword, the Fighter does enough on minimum damage to stagger you.) You just traded actions with the enemy party, buying yourself a round and total concealment for up to three more at the cost of one of your precious few spells, but you have no closer, and no surefire contingencies for when you fail to end the battle yourself.

The closest you could get to actually achieving this task would probably be to cast Sleep, which actually does render them helpless, but you need four instances of Sleep to do it with the Hit Dice cap (note: that's all of your spells in core, even with optimization), all of them need to succeed, and even then, all it takes is one of the remaining party members to wake up the one who failed their save (a standard action), and the coup de grace provoked an attack of opportunity if anyone is nearby, so the only way you could take out four level 3 characters in this vein is if they were all at least two rounds away from each other.

No matter how well you optimize, no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to end an encounter of this kind completely on your own. Even at your best, you are going to find the thug with a great sword indispensable, whereas he will see you as a convenience item (he can still end the encounter on his own; you just make it easier for him to do so). That is just a fact that every wizard player has to contend with at level 1. I know I sure did.

[Geigan]

*snip*
I think your math is off there buddy.

Before correcting the actual math I'd like to point out a wizard's optimized initiative is more likely +6-7 assuming high dex and imp initiative. I'll assume +7 for the benefit of the doubt. I'll also assume it's either a human with high int or a grey elf that traded out scribe scroll for imp initiative off the fighter list. I'll take your word for it on their various saves and initiative bonuses for the 3rd level party.

As for the math, first the possible outcomes are not 10k as the possible outcomes on 5d20 are over 3.2 million. I'd assume you simplified, but you simplified down from there even more which ended with a completely nonsensical probability.

Anyway the initiative comparison I assume was using the wizard's roll as an average 10 to simplify which would at least narrow it down to 160k outcomes.
Remembering Wizard's bonus is +7, I assume the highest initiative wins on a tie.
rogue at +8 would be 8/20 possible wizard wins
cleric at -1 would be 18/20 possible wizard wins
fighter and other wizard at +2 would be 15/20 possible wizard wins

This leaves the wizard with 36450/160000 or a 22.78% chance of winning initiative.

The will saves are just about as easy to calculate since the DC is set at 16(10 + 1 spell level + 4 int + 1 spell focus). You got these mostly right, except for the probability.

Fighter and Rogue's +1 fail 14 out of 20 times
Wizard's +2 fails 13 out of 20 times
Cleric's +7 fails 8 out of 20 times

This means 20384/160000 outcomes or 12.74% that they all fail.

Comparing them together gives you a 2.9% chance that the wizard wins initiative and the entire party fails its save.

You weren't wrong on the basic level of "wizard only wins due to extreme luck" but oh god was your math off. 1 out of 4 is still wrong also. The point is moot anyway since the wizard will not beat out the team even if his color spray manages to hit all of them due to it not knocking anyone out since they're all 3HD. Sleep doesn't work either, so there's really no basis for a first level wizard beating a 4 man party of 3rd level without extreme luck. At least in core only. Outside of core I make no guarantees.

I think a more reasonable comparison would be between what a wizard can do for a party of 1st level, compared to what a sorcerer can do since that's what a wizard is trying to keep up with. Neither actually has much going for them without the rest of the party, but the sorcerer has at least one spell slot more even over specialists. I think Lonely_Tylenol's analysis was fine, with the caveat that level 1 has very small differences between power levels due to most classes having little going for them to differentiate their usefulness except for the ones at the top of the list. The most important feature of a class at level 1 being the ability to survive and adventure long enough to get to level 2 means that the wizard is on the low end of the power scale unless the DM throws in very frequent rest breaks, though this is true of most classes on there by themselves especially in the mid to low range of those ranked.

EDIT:

*snip*
Gah swordsaged, and I just finished that last paragraph. That'll teach me not to eat a sandwich in the middle of long posts.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think a more reasonable comparison would be between what a wizard can do for a party of 1st level, compared to what a sorcerer can do since that's what a wizard is trying to keep up with. Neither actually has much going for them without the rest of the party, but the sorcerer has at least one spell slot more even over specialists. I think Lonely_Tylenol's analysis was fine, with the caveat that level 1 has very small differences between power levels due to most classes having little going for them to differentiate their usefulness except for the ones at the top of the list. The most important feature of a class at level 1 being the ability to survive and adventure long enough to get to level 2 means that the wizard is on the low end of the power scale unless the DM throws in very frequent rest breaks, though this is true of most classes on there by themselves especially in the mid to low range of those ranked.

EDIT:

Gah swordsaged, and I just finished that last paragraph. That'll teach me not to eat a sandwich in the middle of long posts.

Sorry about that, Geigan, but I've been working on this post on a freakin' phone, so I think I earned it. :smallwink:

I mostly wanted to comment on the last paragraph (I covered the rest) to say that this:


level 1 has very small differences between power levels due to most classes having little going for them to differentiate their usefulness except for the ones at the top of the list.

Is precisely the case, as it were. I mean, the only real difference between a sorcerer and wizard of equal optimization at level 1 is the number of spells/day (at least in core), and yet they are still three ranks apart. We're talking about a power balance that is so close in scale that having +1 to hit and a good Hit Dice is actually a selling point, as well as the binary "STR/no STR" issue, and having all three is enough to push someone to second in the power balance, behind the Druid (and only because the wolf has 2HD and Improved Trip). It just so happens that, when the game is scaled down to this level, even the small differences in the numbers can make a big, well, difference, and that is precisely what is happening.

[Phaederkiel]

Lonely Tylenol:

d´oh. brainfart, my commata moved.



Geigan:

well, i am no mathematican. I am a graphic designer :). But I am still too good at math as to say the chance is 1 in 4...


to both of you: He needs his feat at someplace else (precocious apprentice, if i do recall right), so no imp ini for him. He has nerveskitter to make up for it.

But not giving the rogue imp ini when it is probably THE most normal first lvl feat for rogues in core is simply mean.

you both changed all stats to help mr. lvl1 wizard. Thats nice, but i think that my calc is quite right (after fixing that comma...).


The only point i wanted to make is that it took a minor miracle for him to win and that this fight can NOT be taken as an example of how Wizards at lvl 1 are teh pwnzors.

I just loathe people telling us that wizards are the best, ever, and always. At least at lowest level, they are not.

[Kaeso]

Wait, wait, wait.
You consider a cleric to be better than a wizard at every level?
The cleric is an overclocked fighter with a few cool spells, the wizard can makes empires rise and fall by sneezing too hard.

[Phaederkiel]

the OP even had the hots for monks, do not blame him...

[Chronos]

Quoth Lonely_Tylenol:

Meanwhile, there is no creature capable of dropping this same barbarian in one hit, unless it's another barbarian statted out equivalently (and even then, only on a well above-average roll on the 2d6, which is what makes him unique against a fighter of the same level and attributes).
Nothing that can consistently drop the barb in one hit, maybe, but plenty of things can with a crit. An orc, even just a warrior, with a battleaxe (or worse, a greataxe) can do insane damage if he's lucky.

Oh, and a quick way to see that Phaederkiel's initiative calculation was off: Suppose, for the sake of simplicity, that everyone had the same initiative modifier. In that case, Phaederkiel's method would conclude that the wizard had a 1/16 chance of winning initiative. But a moment's thought would reveal that the correct value is 1/5: There are five people, one of them has to be the first, and it's as likely to be the wizard as anyone else. Now, obviously it's more complicated when everyone has a different bonus, but still, if the method fails in the simple case, it's going to fail in the complicated case, too.

[Lonely Tylenol]

to both of you: He needs his feat at someplace else (precocious apprentice, if i do recall right), so no imp ini for him. He has nerveskitter to make up for it.

In Core, he gets neither Precocious Apprentice nor Nerveskitter.


But not giving the rogue imp ini when it is probably THE most normal first lvl feat for rogues in core is simply mean.

you both changed all stats to help mr. lvl1 wizard. Thats nice, but i think that my calc is quite right (after fixing that comma...).

I know. That was the point.

The only way to strike a clear and decisive victory in this numbers game is to give your opponents the benefit of the doubt on all counts and still defeat their argument at its core. Basically, what I just proved here was that, even if you assumed the wizard was given superior Point Buy, was considerably better-optimized (to the point of the level 3 party making terrible build choices to complement their terrible battle tactics), and all conditions were made as favorably as possible for the wizard (within the scope of Core rules, of course), the wizard would still, at his very best, have perhaps a 5% chance of success (enough to be called sheer dumb luck, as these are about the same odds one gets of rolling a nat 20 on their to-hit roll and getting a roll to confirm a crit, which at level 1 ends an encounter just as unexpectedly and unfairly). As far as the strict numbers go, if optimization and circumstances favor both parties equally, I like your assessment of ~1% better, although honestly it's much closer to 0%, because the level 3 wizard alone would be enough to dispatch the level 1 wizard without effort.

All of this, of course, is rendered moot by the fact that Color Spray does not end the encounter, and the wizard has no means of capitalizing on their incredibly unlikely success with it, so even if the best-case scenario happens and the wizard gets lucky, it's still meaningless.

Once you get to that point, the numbers are just arbitrary; they're something you crunch to close loopholes and get rid of "what if"s, so I can be as generous with them as I want. They could have been equivalent NPC classes, or had the nonelite array, or something, there's never a situation where the level 1 wizard miraculously clears a CR 7 room in a single breath, ever.


The only point i wanted to make is that it took a minor miracle for him to win and that this fight can NOT be taken as an example of how Wizards at lvl 1 are teh pwnzors.

I just loathe people telling us that wizards are the best, ever, and always. At least at lowest level, they are not.

I agree with you, and hopefully after this, so does everyone else.


Nothing that can consistently drop the barb in one hit, maybe, but plenty of things can with a crit. An orc, even just a warrior, with a battleaxe (or worse, a greataxe) can do insane damage if he's lucky.

Right. Anything can crit anything to death at level 1, though; even a ranger with a bow looks pretty deadly to your CR1 encounter monster when he rolls a x3 crit.

I just wouldn't bet money on anything getting that lucky crit off in a level 1 duel before the barbarian (of 18 STR and 16 CON) decorates his greatsword with their intestines thanks to that rage-assisted +7 to-hit for 2d6+9 damage. (And even if they do, a barbarian in rage with 16 CON has 17 hit points, so even max damage from a crossbow crit just won't be enough to get from full to zero; they'd best be bringing your big guns to the party if they want to play, and unless they also happen to be barbarians*, that means swinging a two-handed weapon with a x3+ crit multiplier, which has a threat range half as wide as the barbarian's greatsword anyway).

*I'm aware that this is something of an oversimplification, but it is nevertheless not one that undermines my point. A weapon that hits for 6 damage on a confirmed x3 crit brings down the aforementioned barbarian, as does a weapon that hits for 9 on a confirmed x2 crit. Neither of these numbers is that difficult to manage for some classes--assuming the STR bonus is high enough to carry the day. Unfortunately for casters and ranged weapon users, this is almost never the case.

[Phaederkiel]

Oh, and a quick way to see that Phaederkiel's initiative calculation was off: Suppose, for the sake of simplicity, that everyone had the same initiative modifier. In that case, Phaederkiel's method would conclude that the wizard had a 1/16 chance of winning initiative. But a moment's thought would reveal that the correct value is 1/5: There are five people, one of them has to be the first, and it's as likely to be the wizard as anyone else. Now, obviously it's more complicated when everyone has a different bonus, but still, if the method fails in the simple case, it's going to fail in the complicated case, too.

oof. my Girlfriends gonna hate you. Cause she will have to explain to me why it isn´t 1/16. I think you are right, but have not given up yet...



sniff. Please add to the next three posts bashing me:

"at least he didn´t think it was 1/4. He writes neat poems, too."

:smalleek:

[sreservoir]

it's because init isn't a series of independent result; the wizard gets only one init roll.

[dextercorvia]

This IS where the math is crucial. It's worth noting, however, that the numbers are not quite so astronomical: 756 against 10,000 is a ratio of .0756 (or 7.56%), and the odds of beating the save DC of the four party members is 1372 against 10,000, which equates to 13.72%. The odds of beating the entire party at both would be 1,037,232 against 100,000,000, which is actually about 1.307%, NOT .001%; that is to say, the odds of beating the enemy party in initiative (about 7%, or 1/13) and all their save DCs (13%, or 1/7) is 1/(7x13), which is about 1/100, or 1%. (This simplified estimate gets you a win chance of 1.099%.)

You're adding a 0 against dextercorvia on every calculation.

That said, the ACCURATE numbers are still closer to 1 in 100 than 1 in 4, but I'll be generous and skew this completely in favor of the level 1: He's a Gray Elf with 32 Point Buy, invested into double 18s in INT and DEX, and dumping everything else (the Wizard need only survive that fight, and his hit point total is meaningless in the doing, so you can dump CON). Your feat is Improved Initiative. The enemy party is using the Elite Array (Fighter STR 15, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8; Rogue STR 12, DEX 15, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 10; Wizard STR 8, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 15, WIS 12, CHA 10; Cleric STR 13, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 12), have no relevant buffs or feats for the purposes of this fight, and are packed together like sardines.

The numbers are thus:
{table=head]
Character | Init Mod. | Save DC | Save Mod.
Wizard 1 (you) | +8 | DC16 | ---
Fighter 3 | +1 | --- | +2
Rogue 3 | +2 | --- | +0
Wizard 3 | +2 | --- | +4
Cleric 3 | -1 | --- | +5[/table]

Initiative:
The initiative difference for the Wizard 1 is +6 against the Wizard 3 and Rogue 3; +7 against the Fighter 3; and +9 against the Cleric 3. Since opposed rolls are a tricky business and I'm not an expert at plotting out probability points, I'll use the chart found here (http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/aff/57/aft/445181/afv/topic/Default.aspx) to plot the odds of winning initiative. According to the chart, the odds of winning initiative are about (.77 * .77 * .80 * .87) against one, give or take, which amounts to a 41.256% chance of winning the initiative roll.

Will Save vs. Color Spray
This is a little easier for me to calculate. Color Spray has a fixed Save DC (10 + 5 for INT modifier + 1 for spell level), so the save roll is easy to calculate. In order of greatest to worst, the rogue succeeds his save on a 16 or higher, a 25% chance of success (75% chance of failure); the fighter succeeds 35% of the time, and fails 65%; the Wizard, 45% and 55%; the Cleric, an even 50/50%. Thus, your odds of all four failing the save are (.75 * .65 * .55 * .50) against 1, which equates to 13.406%.

Summary
Your odds of winning initiative are 41.256%, and of beating all their saves are 13.406%, so the odds of both happening all at the same time are (.41256 * .13406) against 1, which equates to 5.553%.


I agree with this math. I didn't bother to factor in the chance of winning initiative (although I expected a core rogue to be taking either TWF and Weapon Finesse or PBS and Rapid Shot). Furthermore, I forgot to improve their saves from first level. I assumed something fairly close to LT's numbers retrograded to level 1. That is how I got my 1 in 4. In retrospect I should have been more careful, but I'll agree, that is more of a fluke than I thought.


how do you finish the fight?[/i]

For every successful instance of Color Spray buys you a few rounds of total concealment (the stun duration expires after your next action, so action economy is a net zero: you wasted one turn to delay their actions for exactly one turn, so the blinding condition is the only one that even has a chance of lasting through your next turn). You can't coup de grace a stunned foe, and since you dumped STR, the absolute best you are going to get in terms of damage would be 2d6-1, or 1d12-1, but even against a blinded and stunned foe, your hit chance is mediocre thanks to your -1 to-hit. A crossbow could hit easier (thanks to your min-maxing on DEX), but does only 1d8 and needs a move action to reload. With average Hit Dice for all three levels (that's right--these baddies with PC class levels don't even have max Hit Dice at level 1), the Fighter has 23 HP, the Cleric has 20, the Rogue 17, the Wizard 11, so you aren't going to do anything meaningful in your one round. As for you? You have 3 HP, so you'd better be damn well sure that none of them close on you! (Even with just a short sword, the Fighter does enough on minimum damage to stagger you.) You just traded actions with the enemy party, buying yourself a round and total concealment for up to three more at the cost of one of your precious few spells, but you have no closer, and no surefire contingencies for when you fail to end the battle yourself.

The closest you could get to actually achieving this task would probably be to cast Sleep, which actually does render them helpless, but you need four instances of Sleep to do it with the Hit Dice cap (note: that's all of your spells in core, even with optimization), all of them need to succeed, and even then, all it takes is one of the remaining party members to wake up the one who failed their save (a standard action), and the coup de grace provoked an attack of opportunity if anyone is nearby, so the only way you could take out four level 3 characters in this vein is if they were all at least two rounds away from each other.

No matter how well you optimize, no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to end an encounter of this kind completely on your own. Even at your best, you are going to find the thug with a great sword indispensable, whereas he will see you as a convenience item (he can still end the encounter on his own; you just make it easier for him to do so). That is just a fact that every wizard player has to contend with at level 1. I know I sure did.

My only nitpick from your analysis is that Color Spray will Stun and Blind a 3HD subject for 1d4 rounds then stun them for another 1. That still doesn't finish the job, but it is a little better.

[TheMeMan]

This IS where the math is crucial. It's worth noting, however, that the numbers are not quite so astronomical: 756 against 10,000 is a ratio of .0756 (or 7.56%), and the odds of beating the save DC of the four party members is 1372 against 10,000, which equates to 13.72%. The odds of beating the entire party at both would be 1,037,232 against 100,000,000, which is actually about 1.307%, NOT .001%; that is to say, the odds of beating the enemy party in initiative (about 7%, or 1/13) and all their save DCs (13%, or 1/7) is 1/(7x13), which is about 1/100, or 1%. (This simplified estimate gets you a win chance of 1.099%.)

You're adding a 0 against dextercorvia on every calculation.

That said, the ACCURATE numbers are still closer to 1 in 100 than 1 in 4, but I'll be generous and skew this completely in favor of the level 1: He's a Gray Elf with 32 Point Buy, invested into double 18s in INT and DEX, and dumping everything else (the Wizard need only survive that fight, and his hit point total is meaningless in the doing, so you can dump CON). Your feat is Improved Initiative. The enemy party is using the Elite Array (Fighter STR 15, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8; Rogue STR 12, DEX 15, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 10; Wizard STR 8, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 15, WIS 12, CHA 10; Cleric STR 13, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 12), have no relevant buffs or feats for the purposes of this fight, and are packed together like sardines.

The numbers are thus:
{table=head]
Character | Init Mod. | Save DC | Save Mod.
Wizard 1 (you) | +8 | DC16 | ---
Fighter 3 | +1 | --- | +2
Rogue 3 | +2 | --- | +0
Wizard 3 | +2 | --- | +4
Cleric 3 | -1 | --- | +5[/table]

Initiative:
The initiative difference for the Wizard 1 is +6 against the Wizard 3 and Rogue 3; +7 against the Fighter 3; and +9 against the Cleric 3. Since opposed rolls are a tricky business and I'm not an expert at plotting out probability points, I'll use the chart found here (http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/aff/57/aft/445181/afv/topic/Default.aspx) to plot the odds of winning initiative. According to the chart, the odds of winning initiative are about (.77 * .77 * .80 * .87) against one, give or take, which amounts to a 41.256% chance of winning the initiative roll.

Will Save vs. Color Spray
This is a little easier for me to calculate. Color Spray has a fixed Save DC (10 + 5 for INT modifier + 1 for spell level), so the save roll is easy to calculate. In order of greatest to worst, the rogue succeeds his save on a 16 or higher, a 25% chance of success (75% chance of failure); the fighter succeeds 35% of the time, and fails 65%; the Wizard, 45% and 55%; the Cleric, an even 50/50%. Thus, your odds of all four failing the save are (.75 * .65 * .55 * .50) against 1, which equates to 13.406%.

Summary
Your odds of winning initiative are 41.256%, and of beating all their saves are 13.406%, so the odds of both happening all at the same time are (.41256 * .13406) against 1, which equates to 5.553%.

This is all assuming, of course, that you have all of them packed together, they have a lower point buy, no magic items of any kind, nor any feats, buffs, or special abilities to assist them. If you didn't prebuff (you die in one hit anyway, and action economy is not in your favor), you have, as a Grey Elf conjurer, three spells remaining. The entire enemy party is stunned for 1 round and blinded for 1d4 rounds. This is as good as it gets.

The question still remains, though: how do you finish the fight?

For every successful instance of Color Spray buys you a few rounds of total concealment (the stun duration expires after your next action, so action economy is a net zero: you wasted one turn to delay their actions for exactly one turn, so the blinding condition is the only one that even has a chance of lasting through your next turn). You can't coup de grace a stunned foe, and since you dumped STR, the absolute best you are going to get in terms of damage would be 2d6-1, or 1d12-1, but even against a blinded and stunned foe, your hit chance is mediocre thanks to your -1 to-hit. A crossbow could hit easier (thanks to your min-maxing on DEX), but does only 1d8 and needs a move action to reload. With average Hit Dice for all three levels (that's right--these baddies with PC class levels don't even have max Hit Dice at level 1), the Fighter has 23 HP, the Cleric has 20, the Rogue 17, the Wizard 11, so you aren't going to do anything meaningful in your one round. As for you? You have 3 HP, so you'd better be damn well sure that none of them close on you! (Even with just a short sword, the Fighter does enough on minimum damage to stagger you.) You just traded actions with the enemy party, buying yourself a round and total concealment for up to three more at the cost of one of your precious few spells, but you have no closer, and no surefire contingencies for when you fail to end the battle yourself.

The closest you could get to actually achieving this task would probably be to cast Sleep, which actually does render them helpless, but you need four instances of Sleep to do it with the Hit Dice cap (note: that's all of your spells in core, even with optimization), all of them need to succeed, and even then, all it takes is one of the remaining party members to wake up the one who failed their save (a standard action), and the coup de grace provoked an attack of opportunity if anyone is nearby, so the only way you could take out four level 3 characters in this vein is if they were all at least two rounds away from each other.

No matter how well you optimize, no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to end an encounter of this kind completely on your own. Even at your best, you are going to find the thug with a great sword indispensable, whereas he will see you as a convenience item (he can still end the encounter on his own; you just make it easier for him to do so). That is just a fact that every wizard player has to contend with at level 1. I know I sure did.

Well, the answer to defeating them was simple, and had nothing to do with the Wizard abilities itself(The color spray was merely setting them up for a rather mundane way of defeat). He dowsed them in oil and immolated them with Alchemical Fire, after breaking WBL as it would not have been possible otherwise.

Run down of events (Broken down from the original thread, which I can link to if need be):

Initiative-Optimized cheese-out wizard wins(Dragonwrought nerveskitter Kobold).

Cast Color Spray: All fail.

Hit em with oil.

Throw Alchemical Fire on rogue.

Cast Web, rogue and Wizard die from fire damage.

Use Scroll of Color Spray, once again both the remaining Fighter and Cleric fail the save.

More oil, more Alchemical Fire.

Both die from continuous fire damage.

[Phaederkiel]

I still think he would have had better chances if he had bought 6 riding dogs, these even block fighter and rogue (and possible cleric) from attacking if they should win initative.

which, anyway, brings me to another point:

should wbl be included into the calculation of power level? It obviously makes a difference, question is, how much a difference on a non-hypothetical level?



and could you refrain from just quoting everything?

[Gavinfoxx]

I would've gone for Mules, myself. Cheaper than Riding Dogs, tougher, more attacks, the attacks are more likely to hit...

[Phaederkiel]

well, okay. a mule costs 8 gp, as far as I know. A dog cost 25. So mules are favorable from a price perspective.

two points against them:

but mules are strictly (and much!) better than either a donkey or a horse.
They are about equal to a light warhorse. Which costs 150 gp. I do not think you will get beast that much better off a dm who is concerned with a thing like balance.

Mules are not aggressive animals. I have seen some "will run away when attacked" on some horses. I´d rather think it will be hard to convince a DM that you can train these to attack en masse like dogs tend to do, not without astronomical handle animal checks.

RAW, they are the better option. If you can get your pack of 18 blood frenzied...mules to attack, they would probably pose a real threat to 4 level 3 adventurers.

Dogs have better initative, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Donkeys and Mules are actually really really intelligent. Donkeys and Mules are used, IRL, to protect herds, because they are very defensive against threats...

Also, they're smart!!

[TheMeMan]

well, okay. a mule costs 8 gp, as far as I know. A dog cost 25. So mules are favorable from a price perspective.

two points against them:

but mules are strictly (and much!) better than either a donkey or a horse.
They are about equal to a light warhorse. Which costs 150 gp. I do not think you will get beast that much better off a dm who is concerned with a thing like balance.

Mules are not aggressive animals. I have seen some "will run away when attacked" on some horses. I´d rather think it will be hard to convince a DM that you can train these to attack en masse like dogs tend to do, not without astronomical handle animal checks.

RAW, they are the better option. If you can get your pack of 18 blood frenzied...mules to attack, they would probably pose a real threat to 4 level 3 adventurers.

Dogs have better initative, though.

Or buy 1250 chickens. If mules are allowed, I'm imagining chickens would as well.

Battle chickens. Has a nice ring to it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree with this math. I didn't bother to factor in the chance of winning initiative (although I expected a core rogue to be taking either TWF and Weapon Finesse or PBS and Rapid Shot). Furthermore, I forgot to improve their saves from first level. I assumed something fairly close to LT's numbers retrograded to level 1. That is how I got my 1 in 4. In retrospect I should have been more careful, but I'll agree, that is more of a fluke than I thought.

At level 3, every member of the party gets an additional feat, so a 3rd-level human rogue can get Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative. The wizard could also get Improved Initiative at this level as well, and probably should (it's one of the best feats for a wizard to take barring some very specific, feat-intensive build, core or otherwise).


My only nitpick from your analysis is that Color Spray will Stun and Blind a 3HD subject for 1d4 rounds then stun them for another 1. That still doesn't finish the job, but it is a little better.

Fair. I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking: of course Color Blind layers; that's part of what makes it so incredibly stupid.


Well, the answer to defeating them was simple, and had nothing to do with the Wizard abilities itself(The color spray was merely setting them up for a rather mundane way of defeat). He dowsed them in oil and immolated them with Alchemical Fire, after breaking WBL as it would not have been possible otherwise.

Run down of events (Broken down from the original thread, which I can link to if need be):

Initiative-Optimized cheese-out wizard wins(Dragonwrought nerveskitter Kobold).

Cast Color Spray: All fail.

Hit em with oil.

Throw Alchemical Fire on rogue.

Cast Web, rogue and Wizard die from fire damage.

Use Scroll of Color Spray, once again both the remaining Fighter and Cleric fail the save.

More oil, more Alchemical Fire.

Both die from continuous fire damage.

Suddenly it all makes sense. Dragonwrought cheese, pimping initiative, spell level shenanigans, scrolls and WBL-mancy... Most of which, of course, can be done with a sorcerer, bard, or charismatic Rogue with UMD ranks (and I ranked bard lower than the wizard!).


Or buy 1250 chickens. If mules are allowed, I'm imagining chickens would as well.

Battle chickens. Has a nice ring to it.

How could I have forgotten this in my class-by-class analysis?! The Chicken Infested commoner, true king of the level 1 domain.

[Greenish]

to both of you: He needs his feat at someplace else (precocious apprentice, if i do recall right)Out of core (which you'd have to be for Precocious Apprentice), the wizard could just swap Scribe Scroll for Imp. Initiative, as they often do.


But not giving the rogue imp ini when it is probably THE most normal first lvl feat for rogues in core is simply mean.Eh, I don't know about that. If I had guess, I'd say TWF or finesse or something like Dodge are more used.

[Phaederkiel]

just as a test, i am going to build a barbarian and test it on a 4 man party build by my friends...

[Ceaon]

Out of core (which you'd have to be for Precocious Apprentice), the wizard could just swap Scribe Scroll for Imp. Initiative, as they often do.

Eh, I don't know about that. If I had guess, I'd say TWF or finesse or something like Dodge are more used.

Rogues don't meet the +1 BAB prerequisite of Weapon Finesse at 1st level. But I'd say TWF and Imp IT are roughly of even worth at 1st level.

[dextercorvia]

It is really hard to fit Improved Initiative in a rogue build. Even in core, they tend to be feat starved. You usually have your TWF+Weapon Finesse tree, or your Archery Tree. On top of that, you are probably taking Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility to get into Shadowdancer. Even as a human, that doesn't leave you a lot of feat flexibility.

Also, as a dex based class, you already have a decent initiative, and any combat where you would have acted before just one other opponent anyway, is one where Improved Initiative is a wasted feat choice.

I'd agree that the 3rd level Wizard should have it.

Like I said, I miscalculated how unlikely victory was. I guess my judgement is clouded by fanboyism. But, I'm unapologetic about being a Wizard fan since my first AD&D game, not some 3.5 ZOMG Wizzies Rule convert. 3.5 did a lot to improve playability of a 1st level wizard, and I have never felt like the weakest member of the team.

[Chronos]

Quoth Lonely Tylenol:
Right. Anything can crit anything to death at level 1, though; even a ranger with a bow looks pretty deadly to your CR1 encounter monster when he rolls a x3 crit.

I just wouldn't bet money on anything getting that lucky crit off in a level 1 duel before the barbarian (of 18 STR and 16 CON) decorates his greatsword with their intestines thanks to that rage-assisted +7 to-hit for 2d6+9 damage.In any given duel? Sure. But it takes about 13 equal-CR encounters for a party to level up. Let's say that most of the 1st-level party's encounters are orcs, and orcs are CR 1/2, so there are two of them in each encounter. If each of them gets an average of one attack in before dying, then the chances are pretty good that one of them is going to crit on someone before you get to level 2 hitpoints. And whoever that someone was, even if it was the barbarian, is probably dead.

[Doug Lampert]

oof. my Girlfriends gonna hate you. Cause she will have to explain to me why it isn´t 1/16. I think you are right, but have not given up yet...

As someone said, the events aren't independent.

Suppose I have a +9 initiative, and everyone else in the world has a +8 initiative.

If I roll a 19 or 20 then I beat EVERYONE. 10% chance against the entire world. This despite the fact that my chance of beating any one of them is less than 60%.

With your values:

Wizard +3 to ini
against
Rogue +4 to ini, hopefully +8 (about 3 of 10)
Fighter +2 to ini (about 6 of 10)
cleric -1 to ini (about 7of 10)
wizard +2 to ini (about 6 of 10)

He has a 25.126625% chance of beating them all. Consider that if he rolls a 20 then the ONLY way he can lose is if the rogue rolls a 19 or 20, which gives him a 5%*0.9 (4.5%) chance right there. And he has at least a chance of winning on any roll of 3 or more.

[Phaederkiel]

It is really hard to fit Improved Initiative in a rogue build. Even in core, they tend to be feat starved. You usually have your TWF+Weapon Finesse tree, or your Archery Tree. On top of that, you are probably taking Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility to get into Shadowdancer. Even as a human, that doesn't leave you a lot of feat flexibility.

Also, as a dex based class, you already have a decent initiative, and any combat where you would have acted before just one other opponent anyway, is one where Improved Initiative is a wasted feat choice.


um... I think our opinions differ wildly again. Rogue is most effective (in combat) when sneak attacking. Sneaks are easily gotten via a) flank and b) flatfooted enemies. Simplest way to get Enemies flatfooted: surprise them or win Ini.

thus, Initiative is quite paramount for a rogue. It is, as a wise man said, the one roll you are always going to roll.

and yes, while Imp Ini gives more to a wizard with 14 dex than a rogue with 18 dex already, the rogue is more mechanically dependant from initiative than the wizard.

And what other feats to take? Especially for that combat, he would not clutter his character with feats needed for an prestige class he would not have online at the time.

Two weapon fighting is hungry, we all know it. You will probably need ambidexterity, two weapon fighting, weapon finesse.

But crossbow sniper, weapon focus: crossbow and Imp Ini is just as possible.
and much prefered, when the target has only 6 hp...



Not taking Imp Ini because you have already +4 to initiative is like a wizard with 11 int. Hey, I can cast all my firstlvlspells, why should I invest more...?

[Greenish]

um... I think our opinions differ wildly again. Rogue is most effective (in combat) when sneak attacking. Sneaks are easily gotten via a) flank and b) flatfooted enemies.You don't need the enemies to be flat-footed for SA. It's enough they're denied Dex to AC, which there are multiple ways of achieving (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186283).


Two weapon fighting is hungry, we all know it. You will probably need ambidexterity, two weapon fighting, weapon finesse. What edition were you playing, again? :smalltongue:


But crossbow sniper, weapon focus: crossbow and Imp Ini is just as possible.Going outside core, there are so many feats fighting for your few slots it's not even funny. Darkstalker, Craven, Snap Kick, Pierce Magical Concealment, Master of Poisons…

And then there are even rogues who aren't human (or strongheart halfling).

[Phaederkiel]

I am standing a bit in the dark here. sopa / pipa blocking some things. Savanahh doesn´t know ambidexterity, while dndwiki thinks it 3.5. If it isn´t, my point is even more valid.


yes, but craven at lvl 1 or 3 is just not as good as going first. Same for darkstalker. Later it becomes incredible, but at lvl 3?

And yes, that rogue did not need be a human. I only wanted to point out that for these low-optimisation enemies, Imp Ini is a very logical and natural choice.

And obviously a better choice than they made...

[Greenish]

I am standing a bit in the dark here. sopa / pipa blocking some things. Savanahh doesn´t know ambidexterity, while dndwiki thinks it 3.5.Have you tried the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm)? :smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

just as a test, i am going to build a barbarian and test it on a 4 man party build by my friends...

You can take the totem barbarian ACF and the whirling frenzy variant of Rage without leaving the SRD. Bear and Boar are both solid choices at this point. (Remember that things that don't scale are best at level 1, even if they're not that great. That's why Toughness is better than Improved Toughness at level 1: it's a flat bonus, but Imp Toughness hasn't scaled past it yet.)

A Wood Elf, Half-Orc, or a Dwarf are all good choices. With 32 Point Buy, you could have 20 STR (16 points), 16 CON (10 points) and 14 DEX (6 points), or 18 STR, 18 CON and 14 DEX as a Dwarf. If you go the Whirling Frenzy route, don't even bother with a serviceable Will save; your new strategy is to kill everything that can make you make a Will save before it can happen.

Your equipment is, of course, a chain shirt and a great sword, plus any other trappings you deem appropriate.

Power Attack and Cleave are necessities at this point, but if you are allowed even one flaw, its corresponding feat is Improved Initiative.

Your hit points with this build information are 18 (12 + 3 CON modifier + 3 Toughness). In Whirling Frenzy, your to-hit is +8 (1 BAB + 7 STR modifier), +7 if you power attack; your damage is 2d6+10, +12 if you Power Attack; and your AC is 18 (10 + 4 chain shirt + 2 DEX modifier + 2 dodge bonus). If you charge, you get a +2 to hit, which you'll be trading for a second attack, and a -2 to AC. Should it ever come up, your saves are Fort +5, Ref +4, Will -1.

Your tactics should probably involve charging their wizard, killing him (hopefully) in one blow. If you kill the wizard (if you are Power Attacking, your odds are good: 2d6+12 averages to 19, and a wizard with 16 CON, max HD at 1st level and average for other levels has 18, and that's the high end of wizard) cleave through him to the next guy (either the cleric or the rogue), and if that attack connects, attack them a second time. If you manage to drop both the cleric and the wizard in this fashion, then your biggest hurdle is surviving the two melee attacks in the next turn. Your attack action economy is equal to theirs, and can only improve with time, and your to-hit and AC is at least as good as the fighter (and much better than the rogue).

The best part? I didn't have to dig through a ton of splat books for feats, perform any WBL-mancy, or fall back on tricks not dependent on my class features that have nothing to do with my class; everything listed here is available on the SRD (and everything but the class variants are core), and I was able to come up with the entire build on my phone over a lunch break.

Will edit this post with responses to others shortly.

[Greenish]

You'd need Pounce to use the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy with charge. Of course, getting Pounce on a barbarian isn't exactly a great hurdle, but you'll have to leave SRD.

[Phaederkiel]

yes, it think i will take spirit lion totem variant for pounce, whirling frenzy for the extra attack. Bear totem for toughness :)

I will either play a human to get cleave + PA, or Imp Ini + blooded (if I think I deal enough damage to take out Wizard and Cleric /rogue in one round without Cleave)

or

half orc, with my only feat I will take Imp Ini.

wood elf seems suboptimal, whirling frenzy gives no con bonus and I want rather rage 3 rounds than to have +1 ini and only 2 rounds of rage.

question: does instanteneous rage help my inicheck?


next question: how should i get that nice gear you describe?
I start with 100 gold. Chainshirt cost 100 gold...
I think i will start with studded leather (+3 ac, 25 gold), and either

a falchion (less damage, but with the 3 attacks I hope to deal first and second round, that 18/20 crit chance seems nice, is very pricey)

or a greatsword and a dog

or a heavy Flail (not as good, but allows me to purchase two dogs and a mule, which could make all the difference.



I think I am going to go with human, 18 str, 16 con, 14 dex, 8,8,8.
For the sake of my argument, I will take improved Initiative and powerful charge (which will do less damage than PA and cleave, but when the wizard starts, i lose)

another feat pairing that is to consider is lucky start and fortuitous strike, giving you, if needed, up to 3 tries with ini...or recovers from a botched strike

[dextercorvia]

yes, it think i will take spirit lion totem variant for pounce, whirling frenzy for the extra attack. Bear totem for toughness :)


You can't have both Bear Totem and Spirit Lion Totem, they both lose fast movement.

After your trashing of the chances of doing this with a Core Wizard, I'd really like to see you do it with a Core Barbarian. With full splat support, I know I could optimize a Wizard to win this at as often as initiative.

[Lans]

Actually the whirling whirling frenzy doesn't specify full attack so pounce is unnecessary.

Barbarians can't sell their souls for power like every other class

[Phaederkiel]

After your trashing of the chances of doing this with a Core Wizard, I'd really like to see you do it with a Core Barbarian.

yep, me too. The barbarian has exactly ONE plus point: he doesn´t die as fast.
as long as the wizard kicks the dust fast enough, I think I should be able to handle them. Well, perhaps its impossible, I will know tomorrow.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It is really hard to fit Improved Initiative in a rogue build. Even in core, they tend to be feat starved. You usually have your TWF+Weapon Finesse tree, or your Archery Tree. On top of that, you are probably taking Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility to get into Shadowdancer. Even as a human, that doesn't leave you a lot of feat flexibility.

Oh, come now. Why would the rogue be taking anything for Shadowdancer? Would you ever build a low-level character of any type for a one-shot adventure that is weighed down with shoddy PrC entry feats?

The rogue, like every character in this thought exercise (both friend or foe) exist in a vacuum for the purposes of this exercise. The same justifications for the wizard that allow them to make optimized first-level choices that are incredibly suboptimal beyond first-level (like Precocious Apprentice, or dumping CON to max DEX instead, or taking an ACF that grants Toughness) are what would allow the rogue to take Improved Initiative early on: a rogue 3 who has no need for a PrC (because he will never level into one) only has two relevant feats for TWF by level 3 (Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse), but a human has three feats by that level.


Also, as a dex based class, you already have a decent initiative, and any combat where you would have acted before just one other opponent anyway, is one where Improved Initiative is a wasted feat choice.

Bear in mind that there is never a guarantee that you will beat someone's initiative; a wizard with 16 DEX, Improved Initiative and Nerveskitter has +12 Init, but if the cleric with a -1 Init modifier rolls a 19, then the wizard still fails 25% of the time.

Since initiative isn't beating a fixed number, but is instead an opposed check, there is no such thing as a guaranteed victory on your initiative roll, so initiative is a much more important modifier than, say, the dodge bonus to AC from Dodge (which you don't get if you lose initiative, are flanked or flat-footed, or endure a save-based attack), which means that it is unarguably better.


Like I said, I miscalculated how unlikely victory was. I guess my judgement is clouded by fanboyism. But, I'm unapologetic about being a Wizard fan since my first AD&D game, not some 3.5 ZOMG Wizzies Rule convert. 3.5 did a lot to improve playability of a 1st level wizard, and I have never felt like the weakest member of the team.

Hey, I'm a wizard fan myself. Wizard was the first class I ever played, and I played it because, hey, I love wizards. Though I only recently found friends to play with, I've been poring over D&D books since the nineties, when I was a kid (I guess this would have been right around the end of 2e or beginning of 3e). I love wizards.

But I've also played a wizard from level 1 in my fair share of adventures (including my very first), and I've developed a healthy appreciation for the crossbow in the doing. In my very first campaign, I took Fiery Burst at level 3 just so I could stop feeling useless after fifteen minutes of adventuring; I knew that I'd get enough spells per day to weather it after awhile, but it was just too painful to wait (the environment wasn't very becoming for it, either; it was Core and Completes, but anything not in the PHB needed DM approval). Barring a hearty helping of stinky, fetid cheese, the wizard starts slow out of the gate.


You'd need Pounce to use the extra attack from Whirling Frenzy with charge. Of course, getting Pounce on a barbarian isn't exactly a great hurdle, but you'll have to leave SRD.

I'm sorry. Yes, you are absolutely right. The strategy is, of course, only slightly less viable in the doing (you eat that -2 to-hit penalty but don't lose AC, so you are slightly less likely to succeed and slightly less doomed to fail if you don't in the first round), but Pounce is nevertheless a necessity (because you absolutely don't want to fail in the first round).


Quoth Lonely Tylenol:In any given duel? Sure. But it takes about 13 equal-CR encounters for a party to level up. Let's say that most of the 1st-level party's encounters are orcs, and orcs are CR 1/2, so there are two of them in each encounter. If each of them gets an average of one attack in before dying, then the chances are pretty good that one of them is going to crit on someone before you get to level 2 hitpoints. And whoever that someone was, even if it was the barbarian, is probably dead.

Fair.

The barbarian (and few others) are unique, however, in that this is not a guarantee for them.

[dextercorvia]

Actually the whirling whirling frenzy doesn't specify full attack so pounce is unnecessary.

Barbarians can't sell their souls for power like every other class


If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

This is the default case, so it would actually need specific language allowing you to do it on a regular attack.

[Hiro Protagonest]

How about, instead of a 1st-level character vs a 3rd-level party all at once, we seperate into four encounters of four first level parties, with two minute breaks in between?

[Incanur]

Barring a hearty helping of stinky, fetid cheese, the wizard starts slow out of the gate.

Do you consider the archetypal focused conjurer build cheesy? Cloudy Conjuration - which triggers even on cantrips - makes level 1 a lot easier, though you'll still end up using that crossbow from time to time.

[TheMeMan]

You can't have both Bear Totem and Spirit Lion Totem, they both lose fast movement.

After your trashing of the chances of doing this with a Core Wizard, I'd really like to see you do it with a Core Barbarian. With full splat support, I know I could optimize a Wizard to win this at as often as initiative.

I doubt you would win as often as Initiative, within the parameters of the challenge. Once again, if you look back at the original case, 250% of WBL was required(Thus cheating the system), as well as all four characters failing their Saves for Color Spray, twice. Further, several features involved with the challenge were strictly non-class items, available to anyone.

I highly doubt, with scouring through every last splatbook, you could build one which could win the challenge predictably to any meaningful degree.

[TheMeMan]

How about, instead of a 1st-level character vs a 3rd-level party all at once, we seperate into four encounters of four first level parties, with two minute breaks in between?


Hmm...

This gives me a thought. We could do a Play-by-post "Challenge" with an unoptimized party of 4 characters: Rogue(Sneak Attack focused), Wizard (Blaster), Fighter(Sword&Board defense), Cleric (Healer). We can adjust the levels to the Challenger's requests. A simple map is made, and bam! We have ourselves "The Wizard Challenge"!

Of course, anybody of any class could attempt it. All we need is:

The Party Skills, abilities, spells, and feats.
The equipment.


Of course, so as not to cheat, the "extra" items could be randomly rolled, with a handful of things one normally buys(Potions, scrolls, etc).

So as to keep to the heart of the challenge, the party will not choose necessarily the best feats, but common "It's a trap!" feats or extremely common feats (Such as Imp. Init, which is practically a no-brainer).

[Hiro Protagonest]

I meant four 3rd-level characters, not 1st-level parties. Otherwise, the same.

[dextercorvia]

I doubt you would win as often as Initiative, within the parameters of the challenge. Once again, if you look back at the original case, 250% of WBL was required(Thus cheating the system), as well as all four characters failing their Saves for Color Spray, twice. Further, several features involved with the challenge were strictly non-class items, available to anyone.

I highly doubt, with scouring through every last splatbook, you could build one which could win the challenge predictably to any meaningful degree.

Full 1st party book access is all I require.

[Chronos]

If we're looking at an optimized first-level barbarian, why use Half-Orc? You're not getting any use out of your Wis anyway; you might as well dump it for another +2 Str from full Orc.

And if we're looking for a 1st-level character to beat a higher-level party, my bet's on a warlock with the Summon Swarm invocation. Hit up to four enemies at once (if they're adjacent), with 1d6 damage and two save-or-sucks, and repeat every round. You'd still need to be lucky, of course.

Or possibly a first-level Incarnate, dealing 3d6 a round with a ranged touch attack, but he'd need some way to keep the range open-- I'm not sure the best way to do that.

That, or we could bend the rules a bit: A kobold with an NPC class is supposed to have a CR of its class level -3. So a 4th level kobold adept is CR 1, but would still have an excellent chance of TPK via Web and Burning Hands. Extra benefit, it has a very good Hide and Move Silently even untrained, so might be able to get off a surprise round.

[Lonely Tylenol]

wood elf seems suboptimal

Wood Elves have 2 CHA, skill bonuses, and sleep immunity over Half-Orcs, and in exchange they trade darkvision for low-light.

It's hard to argue against that Human feat, though.


whirling frenzy gives no con bonus and I want rather rage 3 rounds than to have +1 ini and only 2 rounds of rage.

The build I suggested gets six rounds of rage (3 + 3 CON modifier). With regular rage, it gets eight (3 + 5 CON modifier).

The CON bonus is nice (for the 2 hit points and the Fort save), but the difference in AC (-2 vs. +2) is a 20% swing in chance to be hit.


next question: how should i get that nice gear you describe?
I start with 100 gold. Chainshirt cost 100 gold...

Ask for max starting gold. If the party of level 3s gets WBL, this is the least they could do.

If that doesn't work, use scale mail (+4, 30 ft. base move, 50gp) or studded leather (+3, 20 ft. base move, 25gp).


You can't have both Bear Totem and Spirit Lion Totem, they both lose fast movement.

After your trashing of the chances of doing this with a Core Wizard, I'd really like to see you do it with a Core Barbarian. With full splat support, I know I could optimize a Wizard to win this at as often as initiative.

I'll attempt this on Saturday with my party, with the caveat that the enemy party is also core and I get max starting gold (they get level 3 WBL).

Will you allow me to use the entirety of the SRD (which basically just means Unearthed Arcana variants and flaws, max 2), or is this to be done with the PHB entry of Barbarian and only the PHB entry?


How about, instead of a 1st-level character vs a 3rd-level party all at once, we seperate into four encounters of four first level parties, with two minute breaks in between?

I'll do this as well.

Actually, I like this one much more.

EDIT:

I was responded to, so I'll block this in with the following post.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Full 1st party book access is all I require.
So Pun-Pun?

I'll do this as well.

Actually, I like this one much more.

See my other post, I meant four 3rd-level characters, not 1st-level parties.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If we're looking at an optimized first-level barbarian, why use Half-Orc? You're not getting any use out of your Wis anyway; you might as well dump it for another +2 Str from full Orc.

There's also this. Keep in mind that a two-handed weapon gets 1 1/2 STR, so even-numbered modifiers are just better in that regard: a +5 STR modifier gets +7 to its damage roll, but a +6 STR modifier gets +9. In Rage (any variation), this is a +10 vs. +12 difference. This is, essentially, the difference between a Wood Elf/Half-Orc and an Orc.

It's worth noting, however, that Light Sensitivity means the Orc only breaks even in to-hit, unless your party is gentlemanly enough to fight in the dark (incurring the normal penalties) or indoors (where it's all even).

Ultimately, what you have to decide is whether or not you want to lose immunity to sleep and a bonus to saves against enchantments for +2 to your damage roll (it's tempting).

I may ask to play both.


See my other post, I meant four 3rd-level characters, not 1st-level parties.

Even BETTER! :smallbiggrin:

[TheMeMan]

I'll attempt this on Saturday with my party, with the caveat that the enemy party is also core and I get max starting gold (they get level 3 WBL).

Will you allow me to use the entirety of the SRD (which basically just means Unearthed Arcana variants and flaws, max 2), or is this to be done with the PHB entry of Barbarian and only the PHB entry?




I'd be willing to run it for both you and he on Saturday, as a Play-by-Post or some other means. Stipulations being Core-Only for all party members (UA included for the player, not the enemy party as it's unoptimized and assuming only PH & Items), full WBL, and a simple grid for a map.

[dextercorvia]

@LonelyTyelnol: We were talking core wizard, so I think that is a fair restriction. However, I would be happy to try this with a SRD+2, or full access, or any other permutation. I'd just like a chance to pit my Wizard in a same game test.

Jade Dragon's 4 separate 3rd levels is fine with me, I also liked the 4 1st level parties. So long as the playing field is fair, and I can build accordingly, I'm happy.

@Jade Dragon. Not Pun Pun, that would tip the balance in favor of Kobold Paladins or whatever. I plan on doing things that only a Wizard could do.

As far as WBL goes, that's okay, but isn't there a suggested mark up on consumables for arena fights (or one-shots) somewhere?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'd be willing to run it for both you and he on Saturday, as a Play-by-Post or some other means. Stipulations being Core-Only for all party members (UA included for the player, not the enemy party as it's unoptimized and assuming only PH & Items), full WBL, and a simple grid for a map.

I would be unable to do it in Saturday (the reason I would be able to run it then at a real table is because I normally DM a game on Saturday). How's Sunday work?

While we're at it, we could use this time to establish a few ground rules. Here are my recomendations:
1) This is done using match play rules, with "best of 3" being the deciding criteria for a winner.
2) Each opposing side will roll a dice (or flip a coin); the winner of the roll (or flip) decides who places their characters on the field first for the first match. In subsequent rounds, the loser decides who places their characters on the field first. (This happens independent of initiative; it is merely a means of allowing people to make decisions on their placement without it ever being completely one-sided or "unfair". I don't know what the rules were for the previous match, but if somebody recommends them I'll use them.)
3) The starting battlefield is a 20x20 grid. I will let the opponent (or a third party) decide if terrain, lighting, and other such conditions will play a factor in the match.
4) Initiative is rolled independently for each game in the match.
5) There will be a hard limit of 2 flaws. (I am fine with this changing to a lesser number, but I will not change it to a higher number; it just isn't fair.)
6) NO MORE THAN 32 Point Buy for either side. I am fine with 32 Point Buy being used for the unoptimized party, even though I used Elite Array for my hypothetical wards.

I have no other rules to declare at this time.

EDIT:


@LonelyTyelnol: We were talking core wizard, so I think that is a fair restriction. However, I would be happy to try this with a SRD+2, or full access, or any other permutation. I'd just like a chance to pit my Wizard in a same game test.

I require no material that exists outside of the SRD. Spirit Lion would be nice, but as long as Unearthed Arcana variants are allowed, I'm fairly confident in my ability to build within a reasonable level of competence.

EDIT EDIT: I will, however, build a PHB-only Barbarian, in the interest of fairness, and pit it against the same party.


Jade Dragon's 4 separate 3rd levels is fine with me, I also liked the 4 1st level parties. So long as the playing field is fair, and I can build accordingly, I'm happy.

I am fine with these, although I'd like to make a point of note that the former is an Init-off. If neither of us have to account for the crippling deficiency of action economy vs. an entire party, then I can throw myself at the enemy like a reckless fool and you can prepare four instances of Sleep (plus one instance of Color Spray or something for the token Elf). :smallbiggrin:

[Phaederkiel]

i think i would try it, too. Never played PbP before, so I will make some stupid errors.

alas, one thing is important in my opinion:

no flaws, no traits, just like the original battle.


Orc is indeed better than halforc, and I read rage wrong.

oh, and no, I am not taking more starting gold then what is written.
Any suggestions what to buy? is the bonus dog (and perhaps, a mule to ride on - I do not know enough about mounted combat, could I attack from atop the mule? would I get the higher ground bonus) worth downgrading to heavy flail?

What about powerful charge? do you like this choice or do you deem PA and Cleave much better than Imp Ini and PC?

[TheMeMan]

I would be unable to do it in Saturday (the reason I would be able to run it then at a real table is because I normally DM a game on Saturday). How's Sunday work?

While we're at it, we could use this time to establish a few ground rules. Here are my recomendations:
1) This is done using match play rules, with "best of 3" being the deciding criteria for a winner.
2) Each opposing side will roll a dice (or flip a coin); the winner of the roll (or flip) decides who places their characters on the field first for the first match. In subsequent rounds, the loser decides who places their characters on the field first. (This happens independent of initiative; it is merely a means of allowing people to make decisions on their placement without it ever being completely one-sided or "unfair". I don't know what the rules were for the previous match, but if somebody recommends them I'll use them.)
3) The starting battlefield is a 20x20 grid. I will let the opponent (or a third party) decide if terrain, lighting, and other such conditions will play a factor in the match.
4) Initiative is rolled independently for each game in the match.
5) There will be a hard limit of 2 flaws. (I am fine with this changing to a lesser number, but I will not change it to a higher number; it just isn't fair.)
6) NO MORE THAN 32 Point Buy for either side. I am fine with 32 Point Buy being used for the unoptimized party, even though I used Elite Array for my hypothetical wards.

I have no other rules to declare at this time.


Sunday works well for me. As an aside, I'm a little hazy on an issue at hand: Would you like dexter to create the party, or I? I find it would be a bit better if a neutral third party were to create the 3rd level party of 4, as it would get away from either intentional or unintentional over-optimization in a way to simply to "win" so-to-speak against either side.

If you wish for me to create the party, the parameters of the party would be pretty simple for both sides (In reality I would use the same party):

1. Assumed a lowish level optimization.
2. Assumed the party is geared towards adventures than a battle against opponents strictly designed for the task at hand.
3. Tactics would be relatively straight forward.
4. Flaws would not be used, as although it is common among those in the know, low-level optimization assumes it is not the case here.
5. 32 point buy.
6. Most items will be rolled randomly. Some items will be chosen as the "basic" items that would be likely to bought. Any objections to any items in Core will be considered.

If you want him to do so, that's fine as well. Just thinking it might be better to have the party design out of the hands of those playing.

@Phaederkiel:

I'd be fine running a match for you as well. You're welcome to try either the core-only challenge or some other form if you wish.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Sunday works well for me. As an aside, I'm a little hazy on an issue at hand: Would you like dexter to create the party, or I? I find it would be a bit better if a neutral third party were to create the 3rd level party of 4, as it would get away from either intentional or unintentional over-optimization in a way to simply to "win" so-to-speak against either side.

If you wish for me to create the party, the parameters of the party would be pretty simple for both sides (In reality I would use the same party):

1. Assumed a lowish level optimization.
2. Assumed the party is geared towards adventures than a battle against opponents strictly designed for the task at hand.
3. Tactics would be relatively straight forward.
4. Flaws would not be used, as although it is common among those in the know, low-level optimization assumes it is not the case here.
5. 32 point buy.
6. Most items will be rolled randomly. Some items will be chosen as the "basic" items that would be likely to bought. Any objections to any items in Core will be considered.

If you want him to do so, that's fine as well. Just thinking it might be better to have the party design out of the hands of those playing.

I would rather you build it, if for no better reason than that dextercorvia is also planning on running a parallel match, and this allows for the same party to be used on him.

Phaederkiel: Powerful Charge is nice, but the reason I choose Power Attack/Cleave is because it's the only way to allow even a possibility of felling more than one foe in a single round. Winning initiative and succeeding on the cleave could result in the death of not only the wizard, but another foe as well. Doing so turns it into a 2 vs. 1 match, which is a much less frightening prospect. You might be able to do better against a single foe on a charge with Powerful Charge, but you're guaranteeing that your first round leaves at least three people alive, so you lose in action economy.

That's really why I am going for Power Attack/Cleave. It's more of a gamble, but ultimately, a gamble is what you have to take.

[Phaederkiel]

I would rather you build it, if for no better reason than that dextercorvia is also planning on running a parallel match, and this allows for the same party to be used on him.

Phaederkiel: Powerful Charge is nice, but the reason I choose Power Attack/Cleave is because it's the only way to allow even a possibility of felling more than one foe in a single round. Winning initiative and succeeding on the cleave could result in the death of not only the wizard, but another foe as well. Doing so turns it into a 2 vs. 1 match, which is a much less frightening prospect. You might be able to do better against a single foe on a charge with Powerful Charge, but you're guaranteeing that your first round leaves at least three people alive, so you lose in action economy.

That's really why I am going for Power Attack/Cleave. It's more of a gamble, but ultimately, a gamble is what you have to take.


well, as you said: the Hp threshold to hit with the wizard is 18. On the same grounds I assume the threshold to be 27 against the cleric, 21 with the rogue and an awful 30 against the fighter.

With the build as I'd try to run at the moment, I should do either 1d8+9+1d8 (dire flail, I have two dogs), which averages to 18

or 2d6+9+1d8 (great sword, only one dog), which averages to 20,5.

so with this build I should have some good chances to drop at least Wizard and rogue in round 1.

Hmm. seeing that I take that second human feat only to deal averagely 4,5 damage, I have once more to think about beeing an Orc. it deals 1,5 dmg lesss on average, but does so when not charging. It would do so with +1 to hit over the human even in bright sunlight.


@thememan: can I assume that any dogs I have with me attack on their own Initiative, or do I need an action to get them do that?

also: the hypotetical mule. Can I charge from the mule? Do I do this on my Ini? I am not that firm with ride checks.

[Greenish]

If that doesn't work, use scale mail (+4, 30 ft. base move, 50gp) or studded leather (+3, 20 ft. base move, 25gp).I think you got the movement speeds wrong way around. Scale is medium armour and slows you down, studded leather is light and doesn't.


It's worth noting, however, that Light Sensitivity means the Orc only breaks even in to-hit, unless your party is gentlemanly enough to fight in the dark (incurring the normal penalties) or indoors (where it's all even).Oh yeah, no core way to negate that.


Any suggestions what to buy? is the bonus dog (and perhaps, a mule to ride on - I do not know enough about mounted combat, could I attack from atop the mule? would I get the higher ground bonus) worth downgrading to heavy flail?You can ride the mule, but unless it was trained for war, you'd have to keep making DC 20 ride checks (as move action) every round to control it.

You can attack while mounted, though you can't make a full attack in melee if your mount moves more than 5 ft. (Not that that's really relevant here.)

You can get the higher ground bonus if your enemy is smaller than your mount (and not mounted).

The mount will act on your initiative (and doesn't even roll it's own), but use it's own actions.

If you're going to fight mounted, you should probably get lance.


And I'd suggest just flat-out saying no to bought animals and Handle Animal. When a commoner could replicate your trick, it's no longer about the class.

[dextercorvia]

And I'd suggest just flat-out saying no to bought animals and Handle Animal. When a commoner could replicate your trick, it's no longer about the class.

I was going to suggest this. I would rather this be Class vs. Mob rather than, who can field the best Animal Army with starting gold.

[Lonely Tylenol]

so with this build I should have some good chances to drop at least Wizard and rogue in round 1.

As long as you are aware that you technically can't do both on the first round.

Your strategy is lower-risk, lower-reward (mine only pays off in the assumption that I kill someone and someone else is near). Mine is about taking the gamble and hoping it pays off, which--and I'm not going to lie--is what I personally feel you have to do in this situation.

I can't advocate mine as being superior or anything, because it is a gamble. But it is the one I am going to be employing nevertheless.

EDIT: Greenish: Oh WOW. I put the numbers in the wrong places. What a FAIL.

[Greenish]

Your strategy is lower-risk, lower-reward (mine only pays off in the assumption that I kill someone and someone else is near). Mine is about taking the gamble and hoping it pays off, which--and I'm not going to lie--is what I personally feel you have to do in this situation.Though mounting a war-trained mule and swinging around a lance would be the high-damage option. An extra +1 to attack, damage up to 2d8+3*Str, and much wider area to Cleave around.

Second round, drop lance, draw non-reach weapon, attack (and have your mule attack) the cleric or the fighter. Assuming you can't charge.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Though mounting a war-trained mule and swinging around a lance would be the high-damage option. An extra +1 to attack, damage up to 2d8+3*Str, and much wider area to Cleave around.

Second round, drop lance, draw non-reach weapon, attack (and have your mule attack) the cleric or the fighter. Assuming you can't charge.

This is true.

The burning question is: is it allowed?

[Greenish]

This is true.

The burning question is: is it allowed?Mmn. Mounted combat is quite a different animal from having trained attack animals to sic on your enemies, I should think.

A fighter, for example, could have a shot at the 3rd level party, with a fast horse, Ride-by Attack (if it works) and Cleave (or Spirited Charge), on an open field. Of course, horses are a tad expensive.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Mmn. Mounted combat is quite a different animal from having trained attack animals to sic on your enemies, I should think.

You're right on this count, but a war-trained mule requires Handle Animal to train for that purpose, and cannot explicitly be bought (as it defeats the point of warhorses being so expensive).

In all other respects, mounted combat is just a superior use of Handle Animal, unless you win out in sheer quantity of animals, and/or have some special way to abuse trained dogs or badgers.

I don't know--I've been operating under the assumption that anything that explicitly requires Handle Animal or Use Magic Device to work would cheapen the victory, or lead to a "yeah, but..." scenario the likes of which we had with the wizard. I could adjust my build accordingly, but I think it would be best to let both dextercorvia and TheMeMan have their say, first, and if either of them refuses, I won't use it.

(I basically built my barbarian around the idea that all that is needed to win is a serviceable suit of armor and a weapon; no explicit abuses of any kind. Of course, it's not strictly optimal, but it does eliminate the shadow of all doubt.)

[Coidzor]

I was going to suggest this. I would rather this be Class vs. Mob rather than, who can field the best Animal Army with starting gold.

The Bard can get a good number of animals and buff all of them, so I imagine it's him, even if it is only a +1. Crafting(and if we're allowing time for animal training...) a 100 gp MW bull's horn for around 33 gp for an additional +1 leaves a fair amount for muleage that get +2 to hit and damage.

So it seems like a solved problem between the ratio of best buff, duration of buff, and number of animals buffed.

Plus, y'know, Bardic MVPness gets completely discounted by such a restriction.

Granted, making the restriction and acknowledging its effect on bards is probably the best ratio between sane and fair.


You're right on this count, but a war-trained mule requires Handle Animal to train for that purpose, and cannot explicitly be bought (as it defeats the point of warhorses being so expensive).

Well, Warbeast Mules can be bought given the template, but yeah...


In all other respects, mounted combat is just a superior use of Handle Animal, unless you win out in sheer quantity of animals, and/or have some special way to abuse trained dogs or badgers.

Belligerent Bariaur bards baste battle badgers with bellicose boleros to better batter Bullywug barbarian braggarts....:smallamused:


I don't know--I've been operating under the assumption that anything that explicitly requires Handle Animal or Use Magic Device to work would cheapen the victory, or lead to a "yeah, but..." scenario the likes of which we had with the wizard. I could adjust my build accordingly, but I think it would be best to let both dextercorvia and TheMeMan have their say, first, and if either of them refuses, I won't use it.

Hording I can understand, but I didn't think Wild Cohort or Animal Companion were considered to be all that cheesy. Even though Animal Companions getting handled is a free action, negligible check so most people as far as I can tell seem to forget it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The Bard can get a good number of animals and buff all of them, so I imagine it's him, even if it is only a +1. Crafting(and if we're allowing time for animal training...) a 100 gp MW bull's horn for around 33 gp for an additional +1 leaves a fair amount for muleage that get +2 to hit and damage.

So it seems like a solved problem between the ratio of best buff, duration of buff, and number of animals buffed.

Plus, y'know, Bardic MVPness gets completely discounted by such a restriction.

Granted, making the restriction and acknowledging its effect on bards is probably the best ratio between sane and fair.

And just for everyone else's benefit, Handle Animal abuse puts the bard well above the monk in my rankings at level 1, making it NOT the worst thing you could take at level 1, if anyone was wondering. :smallamused:

It's still an exception, though, and not the rule.

[Greenish]

Well, Warbeast Mules can be bought given the template, but yeah...Buying them warbeast is too expensive. It takes less than three years to take 20 on Handle Animal and add it yourself (as long as your Handle Animal modifier isn't negative). :smalltongue:

I was more thinking of a mule trained for combat riding, so you could actually use it as a mount in combat.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Belligerent Bariaur bards baste battle badgers with bellicose boleros to better batter Bullywug barbarian braggarts....:smallamused:

I think I love you.


Hording I can understand, but I didn't think Wild Cohort or Animal Companion were considered to be all that cheesy. Even though Animal Companions getting handled is a free action, negligible check so most people as far as I can tell seem to forget it.

Well, it's not necessarily that it's tremendously cheesy (it isn't, really) so much as it is that Handle Animal happens to be something anyone can do, even if it's cross-class. I mean, it's like aristrocrats using their quadruple WBL to buy tons of animals and scrolls and riding into battle with a badass buffed badger buffeting brigade (<3). Well, not QUITE like it, because holy crap is THAT cheesy, but the point is that the aristocrat can do this better than most classes, but any class could do it because it just involves a skill check and money.


Buying them warbeast is too expensive. It takes less than three years to take 20 on Handle Animal and add it yourself (as long as your Handle Animal modifier isn't negative). :smalltongue:

I was more thinking of a mule trained for combat riding, so you could actually use it as a mount in combat.

Remember that training for mounted combat an animal that is already trained for riding takes half the time, so it could be done in 60 weeks, or just over one year.

[TheMeMan]

I'm currently a tad bit torn on the issue of the Mule Mount. On the one hand, it is technically core-legal. Tylonel has pointed out the issue that it technically isn't utilizing a class as per the challenge. I'm going with both Dex and Tylenol on this one, and say I'd rather not. It's within the realm of allowance for the challenge at hand, but it definitely is not within the spirit of it.

That said, if you want to try it out anyway within the parameters of the challenge I'd be happy to run it for posterity's sake but it wouldn't count as an official attempt.

That's my say anyway.

Also, I'd like to suggest one other stipulation:

An assumed game-week(Or two, or a month) of preparation for the character each person creates. This gives a tad bit of realistic time to prepare, but doesn't get ridiculous for the player to have "years" so-to-speak to think of something god-awful and cheesy. The exact time alotment can vary, but I'd like a certain limit on how much can be done.

[dextercorvia]

I think it would be better without even a mount, but it would be interesting for posterity's sake to see what kind of difference it makes.

I like the limitation on a game week, although it probably won't benefit my contestant unless we have a small pool of XP to craft with, simulating the second adventure of level 1.

Did we ever decide for sure whether it was Core 3 rulebooks, or SRD? I know Phaederkiel wanted no flaws or traits, but I don't remember deciding the other.

Whichever way we decide, I would like the chance to run a Wizard pulling from a more expansive source list for the sake of posterity and comparison.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think it would be better without even a mount, but it would be interesting for posterity's sake to see what kind of difference it makes.

The only difference to my build, I've discovered, is that I would opt to save 50gp to buy scale mail (on a mount, the difference to movement speed is irrelevant) and use 10 of it to buy a lance. With 118 of my starting gold spent in total 50 on armor, 50 on a greatsword, 10 on a lance, 8 on a mule), I still have enough to buy a scroll of Shield or True Strike as a prebuff.

(Should we expand this rule to Use Magic Device? My build would stand to benefit greatly from a scroll of Enlarge Person, but I understand that, at the same time, this cheapens the effect of such a victory.)

So if, functionally speaking, my build works with starting gold, then I know for a fact that it works much, much better without it.


I like the limitation on a game week, although it probably won't benefit my contestant unless we have a small pool of XP to craft with, simulating the second adventure of level 1.

It's still too expensive to make a greatsword with a masterwork component, so it doesn't matter to me.


Did we ever decide for sure whether it was Core 3 rulebooks, or SRD? I know Phaederkiel wanted no flaws or traits, but I don't remember deciding the other.

I'd like two flaws, but I understand that this is the equivalent of asking if I could play a Human fighter for free. I believe they were allowed by TheMeMan, but a final, official ruling would be better.


Whichever way we decide, I would like the chance to run a Wizard pulling from a more expansive source list for the sake of posterity and comparison.

Fair. In this case, I would like the option to make a mounted Spirit Lion charger (so I guess this would be the "not for competition" run TheMeMan mentioned earlier).

EDIT: TL;DR:
1) Use Magic Device: Y/N?
2) Flaws: Y/N? #?
3) A fourth, non-match game with sourcebooks (say, core/SRD + Completes): Y/N?

[dextercorvia]

I'm okay if you want to try UMD. In fairness, I think a scroll would be a waste of your money. It will add an extra level of unpredictability for your build. I don't see you reliably hitting the 21 DC to activate the scroll, and it would only last through one of the battles (with the recommended 2 minutes between encounters).

If we allow flaws (I'm fine with them) then I would prefer to just open up the SRD. There isn't a bunch in there that I need, but there are a few things that could help. I would benefit from the simple wizard variant, and perhaps some of the specialization options.

I'm all for a second round.

Are we doing buff rounds?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm okay if you want to try UMD. In fairness, I think a scroll would be a waste of your money. It will add an extra level of unpredictability for your build. I don't see you reliably hitting the 21 DC to activate the scroll, and it would only last through one of the battles (with the recommended 2 minutes between encounters).

Well, if we're assuming that anything spent in the first battle of the match doesn't carry over into subsequent battles, then obviously that's a point against consumables in general. I was just wondering because a scroll of Mage Armor is cheaper than a chain shirt.

Though in all reality, this only matters for me if the answer to this:


Are we doing buff rounds?

Is yes, and all it really does is help to even the field in this respect (the barbarian has no benefit for buff rounds unless he has sufficient time to at least try a few times on that scroll of Enlarge Person).

By the by, my take on the issue of buff rounds is thus:

Whoever wins the roll/flip (player vs. party), or gets to decide who places their pieces first for the purposes of battlefield position, is treated as "kicking down the door" of the opposing party. As such, that group (player or party) is considered as having had time to prepare before kicking the door down. The opposition is considered to have had no time to prepare, and so they would have no buffs active that aren't typical top-of-the-day prebuffs (things that last hours/level, such as Mage Armor, and other such buffs that are typically cast at the start of your adventuring day, instead of just before a combat). As such, the party Cleric can be reasonably asumed to have Shield Other and Status active regardless of whether or not they are "kicking down the door" on their opponent, and the Wizard may have Mage Armor, Protection from Arrows, False Life or Darkvision active, if they so chose, because it's reasonable to assume that you might approach them in the three-hour span of time that their buffs are active. They would not, however, have any of the animal buff spells, Bless, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Invisbility, Blur, Mag Weapon, or any other 1 min/level buffs active unless they were the ones "kicking down the door", because it's incredibly unlikely that you would approach them within the three-minute window of time that they had those spells active. See Invisibility, Alter Self, Resist Energy, and other 10/min. level buffs are debatable and I am fine with them either way.

What this means for you: If you get the jump on them, you have the opportunity to cast any of your prebuffs, including but not limited to Resistance, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Mage Armor, Protection from X, etc. If they get the jump on you, you are assumed to have Mage Armor active, but anything else must be cast in combat.

Of course, I am being generous in this, since I gain no benefit from a pre-buff round (barring UMD use), but both my opponent (you) and my prospective enemies (the party played by TheMeMan) do. Every round of buffing that I allow weighs heavily against me. However, I do consider myself a gentleman, and I know from being a level 1 wizard (both under a surprise attack and staging one) that I wouldn't walk out the door without Mage Armor, and I try to be prepared for anything else if the opportunity should arise. Basically, giving the wizard no time to buff, or no leeway to say that the wizard would ever be buffed, is just patently unfair for the wizard. :smallsmile:


If we allow flaws (I'm fine with them) then I would prefer to just open up the SRD. There isn't a bunch in there that I need, but there are a few things that could help. I would benefit from the simple wizard variant, and perhaps some of the specialization options.

Well, I've been an advocate for using the entire SRD anyway (except maybe Psionics; it's not that I'm opposed to them, per se, just that I don't really know anything about the Psionics content, so I can't make a qualified judgment either way). Basically, if flaws are allowed, but so is the rest of Unearthed Arcana (barring variant rules such as armor counting as DR or something of that sort), then nothing has changed from my original standpoint.

[TheMeMan]

Alright, a quick introduction of the 3rd level characters so far:

1: They are not deliberately min/maxed specifically for the challenge at hand. Rather, their abilities are set in such a way so as to function well in a low-op campaign style setting.

2. The skills that have been chosen reflect number 1.

3. They have so far rolled relatively on the lower end of average for the most part for HP. Something to keep in mind.

4. The party is as follows (Note that races were chosen as the most common races you see for each class, and alignment was chosen randomly from a dice roll):

Seamus, the Sword & Boarder Extraordinaire (LG Human Fighter 3)
Sean, the Sneaky Trickster (N Halfling Rogue 3)
Explodima Kaboomo, The Boomcaster (CG Elven Wizard 3)
Jon Mc'Seanic, The Amazing Healbot (LN Dwarven Cleric 3)

5. I still need to work on spells & items. I'll have the sheets posted by Saturday to give any last minute preparations.

So if there are any questions/concerns let me know. If there are any items which you feel are not appropriate as well, let me know. They will be chosen almost entirely randomly (With a couple items chosen specifically as "special loot").

[Lonely Tylenol]

EDIT: What time on Saturday would you want to play this? My game isn't until 6 PM, but I'm in Hawaii, so that's about midnight Eastern. As long as we are done by 5 PM my time, I can actually play on Saturday.

Looks good to me. Just don't give someone a candle of invocation and we're fine. :smallwink:

The only stipulations that I would necessarily have are:
1) The wizard is a generalist. The first time I played a wizard (which was also the first time I played), I did not specialize, for fear that losing two schools would hurt my versatility too much. Yes, at first level this did hurt me a lot, but later on I was able to overcome it fairly easily. Subsequent builds have involved generalists and specialists (to wit, I've made a transmuter, an evoker and an abjurer, all for different character concepts), but I contend that a first-time wizard should always be a generalist.
2) I wanted to say the cleric should be good, because most people think of clerics as priests and have a skewed interpretation of priests as being always good, but lawful neutral is fine.

Also, I know it's a bit long-winded (I summed up my posts with TL;DR for this reason), but can you weigh in on the posts made earlier today--er, yesterday--about pre-buffs and UMD?

[Phaederkiel]

I was hoping the Orcish Lion Pouncer on a mule. With a lance...Wanted to call him don Orxata...somewhat crazyeyed, with a long beard.

Do I get the mule that lets me charge? I am willing to expend 4 Points on ride and 4 on handle animal. I do not care, if my beast shys and tries to throw me if ever wounded...


about dex's concern: I want to prove that a Martial class can reproduce the feat that wizard did. To prove that the power boost from raging and the second attack in the pounce can take down that party. What of this could the commoner do at first level?

I think that Barbarian and fighter are not that far away from each other at lvl 1, but Flaws would lift the babarian skyhigh over the fighter.


and I did not want to know that the guys had lowish HP. Know I know that a Human is much better than the orc, simpy because he doesn´t need to deal that much raw damage.

[TheMeMan]

EDIT: What time on Saturday would you want to play this? My game isn't until 6 PM, but I'm in Hawaii, so that's about midnight Eastern. As long as we are done by 5 PM my time, I can actually play on Saturday.

Looks good to me. Just don't give someone a candle of invocation and we're fine. :smallwink:

The only stipulations that I would necessarily have are:
1) The wizard is a generalist. The first time I played a wizard (which was also the first time I played), I did not specialize, for fear that losing two schools would hurt my versatility too much. Yes, at first level this did hurt me a lot, but later on I was able to overcome it fairly easily. Subsequent builds have involved generalists and specialists (to wit, I've made a transmuter, an evoker and an abjurer, all for different character concepts), but I contend that a first-time wizard should always be a generalist.
2) I wanted to say the cleric should be good, because most people think of clerics as priests and have a skewed interpretation of priests as being always good, but lawful neutral is fine.

Also, I know it's a bit long-winded (I summed up my posts with TL;DR for this reason), but can you weigh in on the posts made earlier today--er, yesterday--about pre-buffs and UMD?

Hm... well I made some plans with my GF on Friday after we scheduled for Sunday, so I'm not terribly free at all right now (Unless, of course, I want to sleep on the couch... and it is a comfy couch)...

That said, it'll be relatively quick as either it's over in the first turn (Level 3's win initiative) or in the second or third turn.

And damn, the Cleric had the candle. Well, I guess I have to reroll then. *sigh*

Finally, towards your points. The Wizard is a Generalist. To be frank, I personally have no experience with the class myself(I prefer Sorcerers, Bards, and Psionics for a few reasons), so it will be built shoddy. Which is great for the challenge! I'm sure I could finagle it to be an OP'd specialist of destruction, but that wasn't the plan, and that's not how it's built.

For the cleric, I'll switch his and the Fighter's alignment. Shouldn't make to much of a difference, unless one of you found some way to abuse the alignment system.

For the earlier points, in order:

1. Use Magic Device: Yes, with a caveat. Non-class items/abilities etc. should be used as an augmentation, not as a crutch. Scroll of Mage Armor, or similar sorts of buffs are fine. Color Spray is stretching the spirit of the challenge. Anything beyond that is simply right-out. Take that how you will, but mainly I don't want the fight to be won completely by a decidedly non-class ability. If you want to buff or what-have-you, that seems legitimate to me. If you found a way to end the fight almost entirely with UMD, or some similar means, you cannot claim that your given class "won" the fight, regardless of outcome. If that makes any sense.

2. Flaws: Yep. Standard optimization allows 2 Flaws, I do believe. The party won't have them as they are low-op, but the fight strictly calls for the best optimized build possible (Within the reasonable boundaries, of course).

3. Fourth Non-Match with the entire shebang: Sure, I have no problems with that. It'd be interesting to see exactly what can be done. My only quip on this is that I'd need to know which books the classes are coming from, and if I don't have that book on hand a quick rundown of what is going on with the choices. The only major source I don't have available to me that I can think of is Complete Champion, so keep in mind that if you use anything from it I'll need at least a basic description of what things do.

[dextercorvia]

about dex's concern: I want to prove that a Martial class can reproduce the feat that wizard did. To prove that the power boost from raging and the second attack in the pounce can take down that party. What of this could the commoner do at first level?

I meant the flooding the field with trained attack mules.


That said, it'll be relatively quick as either it's over in the first turn (Level 3's win initiative) or in the second or third turn.

Are we going with one at a time, with a couple minute delay, as was suggested, or with 1vsMob?

Also, what are we doing for starting gold? Max, Average, Flat?

[TheMeMan]

I meant the flooding the field with trained attack mules.



Are we going with one at a time, with a couple minute delay, as was suggested, or with 1vsMob?

Also, what are we doing for starting gold? Max, Average, Flat?

First: I thought we were going as 1vsMob, but I haven't any issue with 1v1(x4). You, Phaer, and Tylenol can decide on that one.

Also, I believe it's max starting gold. That also can be taken up with Tylonel and Phaer for the exact amount, as I'm impartial towards it.

[Tyndmyr]

Ah, yes, Precocious Apprentice. I forgot that was CArc.

Very well; outside of Core (even if only Completes are added), Wizards (and Sorcerers for that matter) just stop caring what other people think, even at level 1, though I've already defended that viewpoint in this thread.



I regard ranger, paladin and wizard as being rather close, being that, without optimization, they may find a niche, but they're not necessarily going to carry the day.

With specialization and proper min/maxing, the wizard is up there with the sorcerer (though there isn't enough of a difference to make either of them really better than a first-level Rogue), but then, the paladin moves up all the same. (The ranger doesn't.)



Notably, paladins also have the benefit of being STR-loaded. A paladin with 18 STR and 14 CON still has 12 hit points and swings for 2d6+6 with a greatsword, and can be done with any race and the same point buy investment as a wizard with 18 INT and 14 CON, who has half as many hit points and gets Magic Missile for 1d4+1 instead. Further, a paladin's armor proficiency means they'll beat a wizard with Mage Armor unless that wizard also has a good DEX bonus (and there's nothing stopping the Paladin from having that same DEX bonus at WBL, unless they opt for Smite use instead).

Let's put all this in perspective here:

Say your run-of-the-mill Core-only wizard was fairly well-optimized, Gray Elf conjurer with 20 INT and four spells per day. He bans evocation and enchantment, because he knows those schools are the least optimized (ostensibly). He prepares Mage Armor, Grease, Color Spray and Expeditious Retreat, because even if he had damage spells, he knows they would be meaningless at this level, since anything that scales by level has a multiple of 1 at this point. Mage Armor is a pre-buff, and a necessary one at this stage in the game, so he casts it, and is down to three spells. (This is mark one against a sorcerer of equal level, who would need to use one of his two spells known to do the same.)

The first encounter is against a group of kobolds. Fortunately, the wizard read the Monster Manual entry on kobolds, and knows they have a weak Will save! Color Spray, with its DC 16, knocks two of them unconscious (the third makes his save; nonsense, he screams in his head), but it's okay, because the Paladin of Pelor strikes the third down with his greatsword. He can coup de grace the others (they're still unconscious), and he does. He's feeling pretty awesome right now: he's savvy and optimized; he can end an encounter with a mean glare; he's a wizard, Harry.

He walks in through the entrance of the ruins shortly after, and he is faced with a pair of menacing Orcs. Gulp! He know Orcs are strong, and he is not, and it's a big enough deal to matter at this point. Luckily, he won initiative (whatever that means), and he happens to have a spell for that. They're spread out too far to catch both with Grease, but he does do get one, and he slips and falls. The second charges him, but the Paladin takes him out with his attack of opportunity, which is great, too, because the Orc's falchion would do 2d4+4 damage, and he has 6 HP, and he knows enough basic arithmetic to know that even the poorest of rolls, 1+1+4, is enough to stagger him, and any better (at 15/16 odds) is enough to knock him to the negatives! What's worse, the Orc on the ground has a greataxe, and our intrepid hero suspects he might have class levels, and he's getting up. He's getting up! What do I do? Our hero is out of first-level spells save for Expeditious Retreat (the panic panic button, which is looking nice right now), and he banned enchantment, so Daze is out of the question. He could ready his crossbow, but his DEX bonus is poor and he has no Base Attack Bonus, and shooting into prone suffers a -4 penalty, so that's not likely to do anything. He could base the Orc and try to hit him in melee, but what if he misses? The Orc could cleave through him like butter! (What if he has Barbarian levels and Power Attack?!) Plus, you dumped STR, like any properly min-maxed wizard would, so your quarterstaff (which doesn't count against WBL) is only good for 1d6-1 damage, and wouldn't kill this Orc anyway. What do I do, what do I do?!

Oh. He fell back down.

Phew!

On his initiative, the paladin walks up and strikes him down where he lays. Unlike you, he has a +9 to hit someone who's prone, and the Orc's AC is only 13 or so. With 2d6+6 damage per successful hit, pretty much anything his sword touches turns to muck, which is great for him; he hasn't even used that one daily use of Smite Evil yet as a result. He's saving it for the Orc leader, who he suspects might have two HD.

Well! That certainly was exciting! Our hero managed to get as far as the entrance to the ruins the Orcs were using for their war camp, and what's more, he didn't get hit into the negatives even once! He's just about ready to call it a day; Mage Armor is just about to expire (after all, even an hour/level buff only lasts for an hour at level one), you're down to Expeditious Retreat and cantrips, and you'd rather not waste crossbow bolts with your paltry +1 to-hit bonus. Time to pack it in for the night.

"Pack it in?" your paladin friend says. "But I'm just getting started! I've got all my hit points, nary a chink in my armor, and my sword arm is nowhere near tired. I'm ready to clear this entire camp and rid the village of this menace!"

"I dunno... I'm feeling kinda... Tired."

"It's 11 in the morning."

"Yeah, well..."

"That's okay," the paladin says. "You find your way back to the village. I'll take care of it from here."

On your way back, you are attacked by a single dog. You Expeditious Retreat away. That still counts as clearing the encounter, right?

Right?

At level 1, there are three major problems with every wizard:

1) Wizards lack longevity. You have between two and four spells of whatever kind, depending on your level of optimization; higher optimization can help overcome this hurdle somewhat by giving you more spells.

2) Your spells may, or may not, be useful for solving the particular problem that you're having. Your mileage may vary based on how savvy you are at selecting your spells. Higher optimization, again, can help alleviate this problem by selecting the most powerful of the spells at your disposal.

3) Even if you have a decent quantity of spells at your arsenal, and you make all the smartest choices, at level 1, without any truly encounter-ending spells at your disposal (a failed save on Color Spray is the closest thing you've got at this point), you're still playing second fiddle to whatever greatsword-wielding thug you manage to hide yourself behind. You need them to make bad guys fall down, and if you're fortunate enough to make bad guys fall down yourself, you still need them to make sure those bad guys don't get back up. This problem corrects itself in time, but in core, no amount of optimization can solve this problem at the first level (unless you plan on ending every encounter by getting close enough to Color Spray everyone, hoping everyone fails their save, and then coup de gracing everyone afterward, which is quite the gamble).

At level 1, the numbers game is more critical to the success and failure of your character and party than any other level in the game, and wizards, at this level, are terrible in the numbers game.

All of the above? It sounds not unlike my wizard adventuring at level 1. I'm the dude in the lead, and I'm dropping the majority of the baddies, and we're taking on notably +CR encounters. All that is true. And yes, sometimes the melee guys get kills. Sometimes they don't.

Also, if the wizard was smart, he would have just fired his crossbow at the prone dude, then moved away behind something to block a charge.

But yknow what you got wrong? The melee who decides to continue on without magical assistance? He dies. He dies horribly.

[Phaederkiel]

I think standard starting gold for barbarian is 100. I do not know how much it is if maxed. As long as my mule can charge...:)

[Greenish]

I think standard starting gold for barbarian is 100. I do not know how much it is if maxed.160 gp.

I don't know why barbarians have such high starting wealth. Greataxe only costs 20 gp and the loincloth is free. :smalltongue:


As long as my mule can charge...That's down to you. Make a DC 20 Handle Animal check or no dice. :smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

I think standard starting gold for barbarian is 100. I do not know how much it is if maxed. As long as my mule can charge...:)

A DC20 Handle Animal check and 3 weeks of training.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hm... well I made some plans with my GF on Friday after we scheduled for Sunday, so I'm not terribly free at all right now (Unless, of course, I want to sleep on the couch... and it is a comfy couch)...

That said, it'll be relatively quick as either it's over in the first turn (Level 3's win initiative) or in the second or third turn.

I can do it Sunday instead. I just figured if you were doing the others on Saturday, I COULD run it concurrently with theirs, if that was more convenient to you.

Sunday it is. :smallsmile:


1. Use Magic Device: Yes, with a caveat. Non-class items/abilities etc. should be used as an augmentation, not as a crutch. Scroll of Mage Armor, or similar sorts of buffs are fine. Color Spray is stretching the spirit of the challenge. Anything beyond that is simply right-out. Take that how you will, but mainly I don't want the fight to be won completely by a decidedly non-class ability. If you want to buff or what-have-you, that seems legitimate to me. If you found a way to end the fight almost entirely with UMD, or some similar means, you cannot claim that your given class "won" the fight, regardless of outcome. If that makes any sense.

This makes sense. I had Mage Armor and Enlarge Person in mind, but that's it.

Follow-up question: are each of our fights considered to exist in a vacuum, independently of the others, or concurrently, for the purpose of expendable items and scrolls? For instance, if I buy a scroll of Mage Armor and a scroll of Enlarge Person, can they be used once for each encounter, or are they expected to last for all three?


2. Flaws: Yep. Standard optimization allows 2 Flaws, I do believe. The party won't have them as they are low-op, but the fight strictly calls for the best optimized build possible (Within the reasonable boundaries, of course).

Sounds good.


3. Fourth Non-Match with the entire shebang: Sure, I have no problems with that. It'd be interesting to see exactly what can be done. My only quip on this is that I'd need to know which books the classes are coming from, and if I don't have that book on hand a quick rundown of what is going on with the choices. The only major source I don't have available to me that I can think of is Complete Champion, so keep in mind that if you use anything from it I'll need at least a basic description of what things do.

My only splatbook, ironically, would be Complete Champion, switching my Bear Totem (Toughness feat) for a Lion Totem (Pounce ability).


Are we going with one at a time, with a couple minute delay, as was suggested, or with 1vsMob?

1vmob was the original challenge, replicating the feat performed by the cheesed-out Wizard; 1v1 in sequence would just be too easy. :smallamused:


Also, what are we doing for starting gold? Max, Average, Flat?

Max.


All of the above? It sounds not unlike my wizard adventuring at level 1. I'm the dude in the lead, and I'm dropping the majority of the baddies, and we're taking on notably +CR encounters. All that is true. And yes, sometimes the melee guys get kills. Sometimes they don't.

In core? Can you explain your methods for actually closing the encounter (as in, killing the baddies)? Is it something that literally any thug with a sword can't do better?


Also, if the wizard was smart, he would have just fired his crossbow at the prone dude, then moved away behind something to block a charge.

If he was smart, he'd run in the opposite direction as far as he could, or at least out of range of a charge. Sure, he could fire at the Orc, but he has 0 BAB, and a -4 penalty for firing into prone, so he has a low chance to hit and an even lower chance to both hit and kill (with his fixed damage roll of 1d8, he has to roll high on the damage roll to do anything meaningful, and that's if the Orc has an NPC class, 1/2 hit dice at level 1, and the non-elite array, as per the SRD entry). Reloading a light crossbow is a move action and firing into melee (as well as everything else you do) provokes an attack of opportunity, so even giving the Orc an outside chance of closing is too risky.


But yknow what you got wrong? The melee who decides to continue on without magical assistance? He dies. He dies horribly.

Not nearly as horribly as the wizard, without melee assistance. The barbarian or paladin, at least, have superior hit chance, damage rolls, hit dice, and often AC than the average enemy of the same HD (CR 1/2 for NPC classes, CR 1 for PC). With even a little luck, a barbarian could go toe-to-toe with a 2 HD creature, like the wolf. Full BAB melee classes have numbers on their side, in that small and precious window where numbers matter. The wizard, on the other hand, has the smallest set of numbers in the game--and at this level, it does hurt.

[Greenish]

The wizard, on the other hand, has the smallest set of numbers in the game--and at this level, it does hurt.Except for commoner, who doesn't even get a good will save. :smallcool:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Except for commoner, who doesn't even get a good will save. :smallcool:

You are absolutely correct. I'm sorry. The wizard has a better chassis than one of five NPC classes.

[Greenish]

You are absolutely correct. I'm sorry. The wizard has a better chassis than one of five NPC classes.Six NPC classes. :smalltongue:

Magewright is on par with wizard (barring familiar bonus).

[ShriekingDrake]

But I can guarantee you that a Druid will get handily outperformed by a party of other Tier 1s.

I realize that we're well past this particular post, but I must say that I think this notion quoted above is mistaken. Druids are likely the most versatile class at lower levels, especially in core. Even without wild shape, the ability to cast Entangle, Faerie Fire, Obscuring Mist, Produce Flame, and Shillelagh and Summon Nature's Ally 1 (spontaneously)--all without need of having a spellbook or needing to "learn" them; the ability to call a disposable battlebot sidekick; the ability to focus on fewer ability scores; the solid saves and decent skill points and hd all make druids a jack of most trades--except dealing with traps directly--at the lower levels. Pound for pound druids are the characters most likely to survive into the mid levels and are rarely out-shined by other characters of equal level and optimization at the lower levels.

Now, above level 15, you are right; Druids do start to drop back a bit. But I must say that most of the games I play in are played at the low and middle levels largely because the spells get so ridiculous at higher levels that it makes the game less fun. Time stop, for instance, while a cool concept, is no fun, especially when it is used against the party.

[sonofzeal]

I realize that we're well past this particular post, but I must say that I think this notion quoted above is mistaken. Druids are likely the most versatile class at lower levels, especially in core. Even without wild shape, the ability to cast Entangle, Faerie Fire, Obscuring Mist, Produce Flame, and Shillelagh and Summon Nature's Ally 1 (spontaneously)--all without need of having a spellbook or needing to "learn" them; the ability to call a disposable battlebot sidekick; the ability to focus on fewer ability scores; the solid saves and decent skill points and hd all make druids a jack of most trades--except dealing with traps directly--at the lower levels. Pound for pound druids are the characters most likely to survive into the mid levels and are rarely out-shined by other characters of equal level and optimization at the lower levels.

Now, above level 15, you are right; Druids do start to drop back a bit. But I must say that most of the games I play in are played at the low and middle levels largely because the spells get so ridiculous at higher levels that it makes the game less fun. Time stop, for instance, while a cool concept, is no fun, especially when it is used against the party.
Just a note - the SAD nature of the Druid doesn't manifest until Wildshape. Before then, Dex is important for AC (which is vital 1-4) and if you want to use Produce Flames effectively, and you need Strength to make good use of Shillelagh. There's also a few signature spells like Charm Animal that are important in these levels (since low-level adventurers can usually expect to fight animals) and key off Charisma to have full effect. Finally, Druids have a good skill list and do benefit from an above-average Int, since lower-level Druids have less ways to bypass skillchecks through use of spells or Wildshape.

Not every druid will need every ability score, but every ability score is useful to at least some druids in these levels. Any single low score, any of them, effectively robs the Druid of otherwise-viable options. And that's the very definition of MAD. Even monks have at least one score they can safely drop and never miss it.


(That said, companion + spells + good chassis + good skill list = effective character. MAD is not always BAD.)

[ShriekingDrake]

Just a note - the SAD nature of the Druid doesn't manifest until Wildshape. Before then, Dex is important for AC (which is vital 1-4) and if you want to use Produce Flames effectively, and you need Strength to make good use of Shillelagh. There's also a few signature spells like Charm Animal that are important in these levels (since low-level adventurers can usually expect to fight animals) and key off Charisma to have full effect. Finally, Druids have a good skill list and do benefit from an above-average Int, since lower-level Druids have less ways to bypass skillchecks through use of spells or Wildshape.

Not every druid will need every ability score, but every ability score is useful to at least some druids in these levels. Any single low score, any of them, effectively robs the Druid of otherwise-viable options. And that's the very definition of MAD. Even monks have at least one score they can safely drop and never miss it.


(That said, companion + spells + good chassis + good skill list = effective character. MAD is not always BAD.)

A set of points well taken. You've got no disagreement from me. And I appreciate you expanding on what may have been a bit hastily expressed on my part. Thanks.

[ericgrau]

FWIW I once held a level 1 duel competition that included a barbarian, fighter, wizard and druid. The barbarian won and either the fighter or riding dog druid was second (it didn't go long enough to tell IIRC). The sleep bomb scythe coup de grace wizard didn't do so well. Basically at level 1 swords have no saves and could 1 shot him.

Some obvious deficiencies in the test include the lack of party tactics (e.g., front line vs. back line) and the advantage 1/day abilities have in 1 off fights. But overall I'd say it's reasonable.

[olentu]

FWIW I once held a level 1 duel competition that included a barbarian, fighter, wizard and druid. The barbarian won and either the fighter or riding dog druid was second (it didn't go long enough to tell IIRC). The sleep bomb scythe coup de grace wizard didn't do so well. Basically at level 1 swords have no saves and could 1 shot him.

Some obvious deficiencies in the test include the lack of party tactics (e.g., front line vs. back line) and the advantage 1/day abilities have in 1 off fights. But overall I'd say it's reasonable.

Gah did that wizard completely forget elves.

[kme]

Concerning the original topic, I'm surprised you place barbarian that high yet the fighter that low. Barbarian is basically just a featless fighter with higher strength , and even that not always.

Fighter on the other hand can pull of various feat combos much earlier (spiked chain tripper, charger, even the basic power attack and cleave).

[Eldariel]

FWIW I once held a level 1 duel competition that included a barbarian, fighter, wizard and druid. The barbarian won and either the fighter or riding dog druid was second (it didn't go long enough to tell IIRC). The sleep bomb scythe coup de grace wizard didn't do so well. Basically at level 1 swords have no saves and could 1 shot him.

Some obvious deficiencies in the test include the lack of party tactics (e.g., front line vs. back line) and the advantage 1/day abilities have in 1 off fights. But overall I'd say it's reasonable.

Yeah, Wizard's strengths on low levels are definitely in the AOEs and range (before Composite Bows become affordable, warrior long range attacks are kind of anemic though still certainly able to kill a Wizard). That and the ability to take on stronger individual opponents; HP is far less of an issue for a Wizard than anyone else so if facing e.g. two-three Ogres on level 1, life is much easier with some choice application of Will SoS.

In a direct combat scenario I'd almost invariably use Color Spray over Sleep since it still outranges all melee attacks, and doesn't have that pesky 1 round casting time.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Concerning the original topic, I'm surprised you place barbarian that high yet the fighter that low. Barbarian is basically just a featless fighter with higher strength , and even that not always.

Fighter on the other hand can pull of various feat combos much earlier (spiked chain tripper, charger, even the basic power attack and cleave).

Fighters don't get pounce 'til epic levels, and even in core only, there's no feat to get Fast Movement. Fighters need int 13 to get Improved Trip, and even in core only, there's no feat for Uncanny Dodge. Fighters need to spend a feat to gain the same HP as a barbarian, and in core only, that feat isn't available. Fighters still don't get Rage/Ferocity/Whirling Frenzy. Okay, a two-level barbarian dip boosts the fighter up to roughly the same level, but a barbarian with a two-level fighter dip is even better.

Oh, and in core only, fighters run out of good feats at around level 6, if not level 4. By then, they've got Power Attack, Cleave, EWP spiked chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip.

[Coidzor]

Gah did that wizard completely forget elves.

Indeed. Reminds me of a duel I saw on the boards between a level one wizard and level one fighter where the wizard just overpowered the fighter. I think he enlarge person'd grappled him to death.

[Chronos]

Sleep is really only effective in a 1v1 (or 1vAnything) against opponents who don't know what a wizard is. If there's nothing standing between you and the wizard, then as soon as you see that he's still casting on your turn, you charge him (which even if it doesn't kill him, will disrupt his spell). If he's too far away to charge him, then you instead run away from him, and you'll get out of range before he finishes casting and force him to waste the slot.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sleep is really only effective in a 1v1 (or 1vAnything) against opponents who don't know what a wizard is. If there's nothing standing between you and the wizard, then as soon as you see that he's still casting on your turn, you charge him (which even if it doesn't kill him, will disrupt his spell). If he's too far away to charge him, then you instead run away from him, and you'll get out of range before he finishes casting and force him to waste the slot.

That... isn't how initiative works...

[NNescio]

That... isn't how initiative works...

He's referring to the 1-round casting time.

[kme]

Fighters don't get pounce 'til epic levels, and even in core only, there's no feat to get Fast Movement. Fighters need int 13 to get Improved Trip, and even in core only, there's no feat for Uncanny Dodge. Fighters need to spend a feat to gain the same HP as a barbarian, and in core only, that feat isn't available. Fighters still don't get Rage/Ferocity/Whirling Frenzy. Okay, a two-level barbarian dip boosts the fighter up to roughly the same level, but a barbarian with a two-level fighter dip is even better.
Fat movement is handy but you probably wouldn't take it if it was a feat, same for uncanny dodge, same for improved toughness. Barbarian doesn't really get anything important aside from rage. Whirling frenzy is nice indeed, but it's a variant rule that won't be allowed most of the time, it's only slightly better then using house rules. That leaves pounce as the only really amazing thing, and it's outside of core. Out of core if I were to chose between a pure fighter and pure barbarian I would still go with fighter.

If you talk about dips, why would you ever go more then 1 possibly 2 levels in barbarian? The only thing you get for the rest of your career is +4 to str and con.

Not to mention that rage really has very few uses daily. You need to be level 8 to use it three times per day (more then 50% of fights).


Oh, and in core only, fighters run out of good feats at around level 6, if not level 4. By then, they've got Power Attack, Cleave, EWP spiked chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip.

A barbarian would need to be level 12 to take all those feats, losing to fighter in the mean time. Even in core only it's not like you can't pick the weaker feats, they will still be useful if not great (mounted combat line).

Still not sold on the barbarian. But I would definitely agree that it's probably among if not the best lvl 1 dip/s for melee builds.


Edit that has nothing to do with the previous part of my post:

Interesting level 1 build:
Human Sorcerer (or a wizard if you want to use scrolls)
Toad familiar
feats: toughness and weapon proficiency greatsword
spells: mage armor and enlarge person
25 ptbuy:
str 16, dex 12, con 14, int 8, wis 8, cha 13
HP: 12

pre buff with mage armor, use enlarge person in combat and strike for 3d6 + 6 damage with reach.
:smallcool: (when considering power of a class in a vacuum normal assumptions don't apply)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Extra HP is the difference between dropping in the first round or retaliating.

Also, a barbarian doesn't need all those feats. He basically just needs Improved Trip on a guisarme + spiked gauntlet combo, or Power Attack + Cleave on a two-handed weapon.

A one-level barbarian dip is not just +4 strength and con for the fighter. A dip only gives you one use. A straight barbarian gets more. And they also get +2 to will saves. And that improves at levels 11 and 20. And Uncanny Dodge and Fast Movement aren't worth much, but together they're worth at least a core feat. And the extra HP and DR are also in there. And there's Trap Sense.

Let's assume human fighter and barbarian. That way the fighter can get Combat Reflexes. That means the barbarian can get his tripping combo by level 3 (Combat Retlexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip), or Cleave by level 1. He doesn't need two tricks. He needs one trick. His class features make up for the lack of a second trick.

[kme]

Extra HP is the difference between dropping in the first round or retaliating.
It may be a difference, same can be said for -2 to acc.


Also, a barbarian doesn't need all those feats. He basically just needs Improved Trip on a guisarme + spiked gauntlet combo, or Power Attack + Cleave on a two-handed weapon.

A one-level barbarian dip is not just +4 strength and con for the fighter. A dip only gives you one use. A straight barbarian gets more. And they also get +2 to will saves. And that improves at levels 11 and 20. And Uncanny Dodge and Fast Movement aren't worth much, but together they're worth at least a core feat. And the extra HP and DR are also in there. And there's Trap Sense.

Let's assume human fighter and barbarian. That way the fighter can get Combat Reflexes. That means the barbarian can get his tripping combo by level 3 (Combat Retlexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip), or Cleave by level 1. He doesn't need two tricks. He needs one trick. His class features make up for the lack of a second trick.
You can safely assume a barbarian will be human, heck it's basically a must. Not so for the fighter, he can be a half orc and have constant +2 to str AND more feats. At levels 1-3, +2 to str 100% of the time is better then +4 to str and con 25 % of the time and I would argue that fast movement and uncanny dodge don't make it equal.

IMHO his class features don't make up for the lack of second (or more) trick/s.

About the feat chains. Sure, you don't need both to contribute in combat but, they are not one or the other, they stack. This makes fighter clearly superior as long as he has the advantage of both chains (until level9). At level 11 rage improves but it can't really tip the tide against 5 more feats fighter has. At level 20 barbarian still loses because the fighter now rides a griffon/dragon flying and trampling over enemies while doing them ride by attacks with a lance.


Out of core, a fighter that dipped barbarian could take the extra rage feat that barbarians ironically cannot afford to spend a feat on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

At level 20 barbarian still loses because the fighter now rides a griffon/dragon flying and trampling over enemies while doing them ride by attacks with a lance.

Show me the class feature that gives the fighter a flying mount that doesn't give the barbarian Wings of Flying or his own flying mount. Oh, and now you wasted a bunch of feats on a trick you can't even use, tripping.

[Coidzor]

Ride-by attack is broken in the Truenamer sense of the term anyway.

[kme]

Show me the class feature that gives the fighter a flying mount that doesn't give the barbarian Wings of Flying or his own flying mount. Oh, and now you wasted a bunch of feats on a trick you can't even use, tripping.
A barbarian can get a mount too, but he probably wont have the feats. And yeah, feats will be wasted in some situations but you don't care because you can afford it as a fighter. You can still use tripping when you can.

Point is, a fighter still has lots of feats to take, and the rage improvement comes at level 20. Even if it gave +100 to str it comes so late that it almost doesn't matter.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A barbarian can get a mount too, but he probably wont have the feats. And yeah, feats will be wasted in some situations but you don't care because you can afford it as a fighter. You can still use tripping when you can.

Point is, a fighter still has lots of feats to take, and the rage improvement comes at level 20. Even if it gave +100 to str it comes so late that it almost doesn't matter.

I'd rather have +8 strength and constitution, a +4 to will saves, another +4 to will saves against certain things, rely on miss chance instead of AC, have an extra hit point per level, not be able to be sneak attacked, have at least two more skill ranks per level (four if you're half-orc and I'm human) and have two compatible tricks (mounted + Cleave or tripping + Cleave) rather than three incompatible tricks and some minor bonuses.

[Coidzor]

In core there's no good feats for a fighter past 12th level or so, last I checked.

Outside of core, there's no feats to be spared outside of one's trick without devaluing each additional trick one has all the more. That, and, really, both fighters and barbarians are going to be demi-uberchargers and both of them can become such on time at 6th level.

[Ifni]

Just a random side-note (possibly relevant for these L1 contests): you don't need Expertise+Trip for Combat Reflexes + reach weapon to be really, REALLY useful at L1. As previously mentioned, L1 is where you can one-hit-kill things, at least if you're a high-Strength barbarian: getting to AoO everyone as they try to close with you tends to mean you win against other melee opponents. (If Enlarged, this probably extends to the wizard trying to sneak up and Color Spray you, as well.)

I used to occasionally play timed dungeon-delves at conventions, where you'd bring in L1 characters and run them through a randomly generated gauntlet of encounters, starting at EL 1-3 and going up to EL 5-7 (you got points based on how far you got within the time limit). The most powerful character I ever saw in these was a Str-18 druid with Two-Weapon Fighting, Shillelagh, and a dog (for tripping+flanking), but my raging barbarian with Combat Reflexes + a glaive was also very effective and held the prize for 'most bad guys killed before her initiative came up' (three - the GM got annoyed after that, and so the fourth one was a sorcerer who Color Sprayed her).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just a random side-note (possibly relevant for these L1 contests): you don't need Expertise+Trip for Combat Reflexes + reach weapon to be really, REALLY useful at L1. As previously mentioned, L1 is where you can one-hit-kill things, at least if you're a high-Strength barbarian: getting to AoO everyone as they try to close with you tends to mean you win against other melee opponents. (If Enlarged, this probably extends to the wizard trying to sneak up and Color Spray you, as well.)

I used to occasionally play timed dungeon-delves at conventions, where you'd bring in L1 characters and run them through a randomly generated gauntlet of encounters, starting at EL 1-3 and going up to EL 5-7 (you got points based on how far you got within the time limit). The most powerful character I ever saw in these was a Str-18 druid with Two-Weapon Fighting, Shillelagh, and a dog (for tripping+flanking), but my raging barbarian with Combat Reflexes + a glaive was also very effective and held the prize for 'most bad guys killed before her initiative came up' (three - the GM got annoyed after that, and so the fourth one was a sorcerer who Color Sprayed her).

This is very true, and worth mentioning, especially for Phaederkiel, who expressed interest in running an Core-exclusive game, or for any Barbarian who takes Ferocity out of Complete Scoundrel, since that's a free +4 to Dexterity (and two possible attacks of opportunity with Combat Reflexes) at level one. This is likely the route I would take if Ferocity was available to me, as Power Attack + Cleave + Combat Reflexes, at that point, is strictly superior to Power Attack + Cleave + Improved Initiative (you might lose initiative, but you just don't care at that point, because everything you touch turns to a fine, bloody mist if it so much as approaches you).

This is one trick that makes the Fighter very good at level 1 (assuming relevant stats are high enough), because even though he can't pimp his Strength score on a whim like the Barbarian (meaning the ceiling is lower for him), a Human Fighter can still do this at level 1.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is very true, and worth mentioning, especially for Phaederkiel, who expressed interest in running an Core-exclusive game, or for any Barbarian who takes Ferocity out of Complete Scoundrel, since that's a free +4 to Dexterity (and two possible attacks of opportunity with Combat Reflexes) at level one. This is likely the route I would take if Ferocity was available to me, as Power Attack + Cleave + Combat Reflexes, at that point, is strictly superior to Power Attack + Cleave + Improved Initiative (you might lose initiative, but you just don't care at that point, because everything you touch turns to a fine, bloody mist if it so much as approaches you).

This is one trick that makes the Fighter very good at level 1 (assuming relevant stats are high enough), because even though he can't pimp his Strength score on a whim like the Barbarian (meaning the ceiling is lower for him), a Human Fighter can still do this at level 1.

You are flat-footed until you act in combat.

Level 1 barbarians don't have Uncanny Dodge.

You cannot make AoOs while flat-footed.

This trick doesn't work.

[Greenish]

You cannot make AoOs while flat-footed.Unless you have Combat Reflexes. :smallamused:

[Edit]: And characters with Uncanny Dodge can still be flat-footed. They just don't lose Dex to AC when they are, but they still can't take AoO or immediate actions.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Unless you have Combat Reflexes. :smallamused:

http://www.socialbrite.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/thumbs-up-180.jpg Lonely Tylenol likes this.

[TheMeMan]

The Cleric, Jon Mc'Seanmic:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=362882

Note: Due to some absent-mindedness, I forgot about Clerical spontaneous casting. *Sigh*

That said, here's the altered spell list as Myth-Weavers is currently down:

1st Level: Blessx2 , Shield of Faith (Bonus Spell), Cure Light Wounds (Domain)

2nd Level: Aid, Consecrate (Rolled for Undead heavy campaign), Cure Moderate Wounds(Domain)

That should be the major fix.

The Fighter, Seamus:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=359331

*Note: Forgot the fifth feat, which will be Power Attack(As a gate-way to Cleave in later levels).

The Wizard, Explodima Kaboomo:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=362876

*Note: Spell Focus feat is Spell Focus (Evocation). Also, I forgot the second, which will be Heighten Spell.

The Rogue, Sean:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=362877

*Note: After some consulting, the stats will change to Str 8, and likely a bump to Cha(I believe to 16). The feats will change to Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse. Also, Daggers will be Small and deal 1d3 damage.

Alright, a bit of a rundown. All rolled more or less (Usually less) average for HP. The Rogue ended not well, with a 1 & 4 for 2nd and third roll respectively. So he's hurting a bit at 16. The Wizard rolled average, but through Con neglect only has a very meager 11 HP. The Cleric rolled a 2... and a 3. So he's hurting more than usually. Although with a decent Con, he's still got a relatively chunky 22 HP. The Fighter only just barely beat the average, with a 4 and a 7 roll, coming to 30 HP with his Con. Pretty Chunky all things considered.

Both casters have an 18 in Int and Wis, as I have never actually seen either not max those out. The stats are a little wonky (Without any deliberately maxed for better gain than those already stated), but the major reason is that I've seen many new players go well into MAD territory thought unintentionally, regardless of class.

The fighter, being mainly defensive, did not go straight to Str 18, instead investing in more in constitution and Intelligence. Constitution is an obvious choice for a sword and boarder, but Intelligence is explained as many new players wanting to eek out what few skills they can by raising intelligence. Charisma is an obvious dump stat for any fighter, regardless of optimization. As a "new" player, he doesn't want to take a hit to his AC to invest said points elsewhere, and keeps at Dex 10 so as not to lose armor bonus from Dexterity.

The Wizard is straight up Blow-Stuff-Up, with only a single buff spell(Resistance, level 0). She has a relatively high Dex at 14, and a decent Con at 12. The mindset here is that with such limited spells, the player would likely consider the use of a simple ranged weapon as an effective alternative(Light Crossbow in this case), but also the extra AC may offset the meager hitpoints that would be gained otherwise. Investing a bit in Wisdom helps with the Will saves, with Strength and Charisma being obvious dump stats even for new players.

The Rogue is probably the most classic thing I've seen done with early characters. Although Dex helps with armor and ranged attacks, the Rogue is deciding to go down the sneak attack route. So he needs at least a semblance of Strength to ensure that his attacks at least hit. Con helps him stay alive with his meager hitpoints, but many players, especially new ones, conceive of them as being able to be sneaky in combat, and don't worry to heavily with Con. He upped his Cha a bit because he'll be the face of the party, but it doesn't do much for him. A high intelligence gives him plenty of skillpoints to work with.

Finally, the Cleric is straight heal-bot of the Healer/Good Domain. Not many buffs for spells, but the party wants him to heal them, darnnit! He has his Str at 10 just incase he needs to fight, Dex at 12 to help with armor(Which was put at 14, and modified down from being a Dwarf), Wis 18, Int 12(To help, once again, with skill points), and Cha 6(He's a dwarf, dammit!). Anyway, for spells he's mostly healing and only buffing when he needs to.


As for feats, a quick explanation(It appears I may have missed 1 for each, so I may have to go back):

The Wizard's Feats are chosen as being the most likely to be chosen for maximum gain by players who don't know to much, or are obvious.

The Fighter is a little eclectic, without much focus here or there for any sort of cohesive build. Shield Bash I've seen newer players take (Cause it's Cool!), Quick Draw incase he's caught off guard, Weapon Focus to help him fight, and Lightning Reflexes to help with his abysmal Reflex Save. Power Attack will likely not be used itself, as few new players know how to use it affectively. Rather, most I see take it use it as a gate-way to cleave (His next Fighter-Bonus feat).

The Cleric has two right now (Dammit, I missed one):

Increased Turning was chosen for the following reason: I decided to flip a coin to see if the campaign they were in was "undead heavy" or not. Turns out it was. So the idea would be that the player took the feat for that purpose. Brew Potion was chosen as these characters are involved in a campaign setting, and it would be at least seen as useful to have a brewer on staff for the various spells. Each player has a few pots of Cure Light that were either from loot or Brewed for this purpose(Determined by a random dice roll).

The Rogue largely is worried about getting the most out of Sneak attack, with Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse.


Items were rolled randomly, consumables were rolled to see how many were used so far, and any item that was more compatible with a certain character was "traded" from the receiving character for an equal amount of items(As one might expect in any group to do, regardless of level of optimization).

Any question or concerns are welcome, but this is the basic chassis(Sans an extra feat and a handful of none-to-great items).

Of course, I left out some of the more mundance items that a party would have, but they likely wouldn't affect the outcome if being used by a low-op party.

[Greenish]

So he needs at least a semblance of Strength to ensure that his attacks at least hit.Wouldn't most beginners just try to survive until Weapon Finesse?


Dex at 12 to help with armor(Which was put at 14, and modified down from being a Dwarf)PHB dwarves don't have Dex penalty.


[Edit]: Is the rogue dual-wielding oversized weapons without feats?

[ericgrau]

Gah did that wizard completely forget elves.
No there wasn't a single other elf. But he was an elf to protect against it and he expected others to do the same (even though nobody did). Simply put at level 1 sleep has a save, swords don't. The challenge started at a decent range which gave enough time to cast sleep, so I don't think color spray would do any better. In fact moving into range when a foe can charge a longer range could have been a serious problem. Or if fighting ranged foes including other casters.

[Tvtyrant]

Wouldn't most beginners just try to survive until Weapon Finesse?


The ones I have played with use Alchemist's Fire flasks at that level, so my experience is yes.

[TheMeMan]

Wouldn't most beginners just try to survive until Weapon Finesse?

PHB dwarves don't have Dex penalty.


[Edit]: Is the rogue dual-wielding oversized weapons without feats?

...

Gah! I knew overlooked a few things. Never should have created the sheets and notes while working on only 1 hour of sleep. Thanks for the point-outs, I missed some key details (Daggers will be changed to small, Dwarf characteristics changed, Str stat changed).

As for the Dwarves, I have no idea as to why I actually thought they had a Dex penalty. Ridiculousness and all that, and I distinctly remember cross-referencing the PHB. Shall be changed accordingly.

[Greenish]

As for the Dwarves, I have no idea as to why I actually thought they had a Dex penalty.Several dwarf subraces have penalty to dex instead of cha.

I'll claim, though, that newbie rogue's feats should be TWF and Weapon Finesse. Those are the most obvious ones, before you even realize a high initiative modifier is actually pretty handy.

[Eldariel]

No there wasn't a single other elf. But he was an elf to protect against it and he expected others to do the same (even though nobody did). Simply put at level 1 sleep has a save, swords don't. The challenge started at a decent range which gave enough time to cast sleep, so I don't think color spray would do any better. In fact moving into range when a foe can charge a longer range could have been a serious problem. Or if fighting ranged foes including other casters.

Swords have a To Hit roll though which generally has a lower chance of succeeding than the Save failing.

[Phaederkiel]

ok, I assume I have max starting gold (which means I can buy a light warhorse...yay! I would have taken a wartrained mule, but you cannot have everything).


Now I only need to know if Instantenous Rage helps with Initiative.
TheMeMan? Ultimately, its your call.

oh, and am I right to assume that whirling frenzy gives +4 to ac, all things considered? +2 flat and +2 or the dex boost?

[Phaederkiel]

ok, here is my sheet:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=363579

I think the only question remaining is:
does Travel Devotion work for the horse I am sitting on?

[Lonely Tylenol]

ok, I assume I have max starting gold (which means I can buy a light warhorse...yay! I would have taken a wartrained mule, but you cannot have everything).

This is correct.


oh, and am I right to assume that whirling frenzy gives +4 to ac, all things considered? +2 flat and +2 or the dex boost?

Whirling Frenzy doesn't give +4 AC. It gives a flat +2 dodge bonus. The DEX boost comes from the Ferocity ACF (Complete Scoundrel), not Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana), and that, of course, comes with the +2 bonus to AC that comes with having such a modifier.

Here's my character: Burnaby J. Rockefeller III (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=363575), formerly Theodore J. Jefferton III (the Chaotic Evil Orc Barbarian turned Chaotic Good Wood Elf Barbarian). I'm assuming two flaws (the Improved Initiative is what would happen theoretically if a third was allowed and I took it).

EDIT: By the by, I succeed on the Use Magic Device check to use a 1st-level scroll of Enlarge Person on a natural 20, but fail only on a 1. For simplicity's sake, can I assume that I roll 1d20 to determine the number of attempts I make, and roll 1d2 to determine success or failure, which has the same odds, but is much less complicated?

[Phaederkiel]

urg. you are right.
so bye bye autopassed ridechecks. Puh. what do you think, is +1 to ini, armor and ridechecks worth the two lost rounds of frenzy and 3 hp?

at least I do not need to worry about Instantaneous rage anymore.

Still need TheMeMans ruling about travel devotion.

[TheMeMan]

Alright, sorry all for being a bit later to the show than anticipated. My job kept me late, and I had to give my girlfriend a ride right after I got home, using the 5 minutes I had to send a PM to Tylenol.

That all said, I'll get things organized quickly, and get the show on the road. Just send me a TM when you're available, and well blast through it.

@Phaer: Unfortunately, I do not believe so. Feats as far as any source I've seen are not shared being the character and his/her mount. Hence why they both have different feats and such.

[ericgrau]

Swords have a To Hit roll though which generally has a lower chance of succeeding than the Save failing.
Unless you're a squishy level 1 mage with little AC. The charge +2 probably helped too. I think the sleep bomber only won something like 30-35% of 100 matches. That's part of why the competition ended early, programming in entrants' complex strategies so the computer could run them 100 times. Like the sleep bomber had a backup spell like color spray or something if the foe got too close, moved to try to stay at range, etc. It got too complicated.

It's tough for a level 1 mage. Your save-or-lose is marginally better than an attack and then only in the most ideal scenario, and any ambush instantly knocks you unconscious with much higher reliability. It's more a matter of contributing something while surrounded by sturdier allies until you level enough to do more. I like to be 2nd from the back rather than the back just so there's a rear guard. And then we got ambushed from the side >_<.

[Phaederkiel]

I´ve always seen this as: you use your mount expending YOUR move action,
Travel Devotion lets you move your speed. So you can move your mount.

But if you do not like it, I will not take it.

[TheMeMan]

I´ve always seen this as: you use your mount expending YOUR move action,
Travel Devotion lets you move your speed. So you can move your mount.

But if you do not like it, I will not take it.

Hrm. Well, the issue is that although you are using your move action to move your mount, it is still your mount that is technically moving (Not you-the way I interpret this is that you have to guide the mount in some way, which expends the move action; you yourself are not technically moving). Further, feats a character takes generally do not affect mounts unless specifically stated within the text of the feat. Otherwise, one could get some rather wonky results from things.

I'm rather uncomfortable allowing it, as it's entering into homebrew and home-rule territory, which would get messy given the nature of the even. I'd like to keep things as RAW as possible. If this were a regular campaign setting, I'd allow it, but it's not and the nature of the event doesn't really sit well with it.

That said, here is the thread for the challenge:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12577179#post12577179

Let me know whenever you want to go, I'm free all day(Except in 3 and half hours when I have to pick my girlfriend up from work).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Signing on with my apologies. I was up all night, but I wasn't able to stay awake until 9:30 am; I finally punched out, probably, around 7 or 8.

FUN GAME last night, though. :smallbiggrin:

Just for easy reference, the statistics on my attack and damage rolls are what I get if my character is enraged, and when he is enraged and enlarged, in that order. They do not reflect his to-hit in a charge (which is an extra +2).

Relevant Armor Class values are 13 base, +4 Mage Armor, +2 Whirling Frenzy, -2 Enlarge Person, -2 charge penalty.

[dextercorvia]

I'm still working to get my Wizard together. I see a couple of non-core, non-OGL feats on Phaed's sheet. Did we lift that rule? I don't mind, it would give me a chance.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm still working to get my Wizard together. I see a couple of non-core, non-OGL feats on Phaed's sheet. Did we lift that rule? I don't mind, it would give me a chance.

I understand it being that phae and I ended up playing entirely different games. I am still using SRD content, and playing what could be seen as a high-op, but ultimately SRD-ready barbarian; he is playing with splat access (spirit lion totem from CC, non-SRD feats).

You have the option of playing to beat the party by phae's rules (normal mode) or my rules (hard mode). It's worth noting that I managed to drop everyone except the fighter (who was at 6 HP thanks to the cleric's Aid and simply got off the killing blow first) in the first of this best of three, using only SRD content and no buff but a potion of Mage Armor (which, for all intents and purposes, represents my slightly more cheaply acquired chain shirt) after losing the combat advantage roll and whiffing on my winning initiative. With the capacity to get off a scroll of Enlarge Person pre-battle, things are already looking MUCH better for me in round 2. All done with features found on d20srd.org. If you really, definitively want to prove that wizards are better at level 1 in core, as per the parameters of my initial challenge, it's me you have to beat. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

I understand it being that phae and I ended up playing entirely different games. I am still using SRD content, and playing what could be seen as a high-op, but ultimately SRD-ready barbarian; he is playing with splat access (spirit lion totem from CC, non-SRD feats).

You have the option of playing to beat the party by phae's rules (normal mode) or my rules (hard mode). It's worth noting that I managed to drop everyone except the fighter (who was at 6 HP thanks to the cleric's Aid and simply got off the killing blow first) in the first of this best of three, using only SRD content and no buff but a potion of Mage Armor (which, for all intents and purposes, represents my slightly more cheaply acquired chain shirt) after losing the combat advantage roll and whiffing on my winning initiative. With the capacity to get off a scroll of Enlarge Person pre-battle, things are already looking MUCH better for me in round 2. All done with features found on d20srd.org. If you really, definitively want to prove that wizards are better at level 1 in core, as per the parameters of my initial challenge, it's me you have to beat. :smallwink:

I did see your first fight. That was pretty good. I'm going back and forth. Right now, I have a build with about 5 things from outside of d20srd. It is done except for a couple of spells to pick, and equipment. However, I really want to do this d20srd only.

One thing that I'm really challenged by is Wizard starting gold. I mean, the barbarian gets more, really? And I remember now, that that was the crappiest thing about the first adventure. As it is, I'm trying to trade my familiar for something, just to avoid spending all of my starting gold to summon the damn thing.

[TheMeMan]

I'm still working to get my Wizard together. I see a couple of non-core, non-OGL feats on Phaed's sheet. Did we lift that rule? I don't mind, it would give me a chance.

Phaed is essentially mostly a posterity fight that is meant to see what can be done with mounted combat with anything available. Not technically official.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I did see your first fight. That was pretty good. I'm going back and forth. Right now, I have a build with about 5 things from outside of d20srd. It is done except for a couple of spells to pick, and equipment. However, I really want to do this d20srd only.

If you manage to score even one victory against TheMeMan, you will likely win: my AoO gambit didn't pay off, with the attack against the rogue failing and my being flat-footed and them charging actually allowing the fighter to score an early hit. If I survive this round, odds are decent that I'll win, but they're just as decent that I'll lose before then.


One thing that I'm really challenged by is Wizard starting gold. I mean, the barbarian gets more, really? And I remember now, that that was the crappiest thing about the first adventure. As it is, I'm trying to trade my familiar for something, just to avoid spending all of my starting gold to summon the damn thing.

Technically, you can trade him for an animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), though I don't believe you can get anything like a wolf (since you're at half level).

[TheMeMan]

If you manage to score even one victory against TheMeMan, you will likely win: my AoO gambit didn't pay off, with the attack against the rogue failing and my being flat-footed and them charging actually allowing the fighter to score an early hit. If I survive this round, odds are decent that I'll win, but they're just as decent that I'll lose before then.



Technically, you can trade him for an animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), though I don't believe you can get anything like a wolf (since you're at half level).

I have put into place a system just in case there is no clear winner(As in, no matches won by either of you or phaed). The exact details are going to be revealed after the test as I want this to be about actually winning the match rather than abusing the system.

However, I have to say, so far it's turning out to be pretty interesting. You are basically either just about to win the current match, or just barely lose. The last match was very close, and was essentially a coin-flip(As the fighter needed a 10 or better to beat you, if I recall, and both were on even footing).

Also, dexter, I can run both so don't worry either way. It's quite fun, really.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I have put into place a system just in case there is no clear winner(As in, no matches won by either of you or phaed). The exact details are going to be revealed after the test as I want this to be about actually winning the match rather than abusing the system.

Well, the winnar is definitely not me. If you're so inclined, we could play a third one for posterity's sake, but the rules were best of three, and you won the first two, so that's game and match!


However, I have to say, so far it's turning out to be pretty interesting. You are basically either just about to win the current match, or just barely lose. The last match was very close, and was essentially a coin-flip(As the fighter needed a 10 or better to beat you, if I recall, and both were on even footing).

Also, dexter, I can run both so don't worry either way. It's quite fun, really.

Actually, in the last one, it was the fighter's +7 to hit and 18 AC vs. my +6 to hit and 19 AC. The fighter and I would both succeed on a to-hit roll of a twelve (meaning we each had a 45% chance to connect on any given hit), but I had two attacks with Whirling Frenzy, so if he had missed that first attack, I would have had a 69% chance to connect with at least one attack. I would have killed him on minimum damage, and he would have staggered me on a two of his 1d8, so he more or less would have killed me.

This one was ostensibly a coin flip as well: the fighter connects on a 10 or higher (55% odds), and I connect, once again, on a 12 or higher (with two chances to hit, so 69% odds of at least one connecting). Minimum damage would have been enough to kill the fighter, but he needed a damage roll of 5 or higher on 1d8 (50% odds). Basically, he had a 27.5% chance of felling me in this round (slightly higher of at least staggering me).

It just so happens that I lost every coin flip I made today.

Given that I was able to reduce every ECL 7 encounter I played to a series of coin flips, any of which could have given me the match, I must say that I'm quite impressed by my results regardless.

[TheMeMan]

~snip~

Check the thread and your PMs. There was a slight issue.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Check the thread and your PMs. There was a slight issue.

I responded (but wasn't able to get my answer in before the 11:00 shut down of the site :smallmad:). I hope everything is resolved. I'm sorry about the confusion, but I was not talking about Burnaby J. Rockefeller III returning to Medium size, but instead his spear (which, as an unattended item, automatically returned to its normal size the moment I used a free action to drop it, as per the wording on Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm)). I am still Large-sized, take the -2 DEX penalty and the -1 Size penalty to AC (dropping my AC from 19 as Medium to 17 as Large), so I take the attack as normal, and it drops me to -2 Hit Points.

Again, the fighter survives by a single blow.

EDIT: By the way, I know that it's a low-op party that we're fighting here, but I just wanted to point out how interesting it is, to me at least, that the thing that's killed me both rounds isn't that the wizard is easily subverting my tactics or bending me over his knee and spanking me with reality-bending shenanigans: It's that the fighter has enough health to survive a hit, enough AC to avoid an attack, and enough of a to-hit bonus to have a meaningful chance to hit. In both games, my undoing was a STR-loaded full-BAB class, and it was his numbers that did me in.

EDIT II: Consider also what might have happened in each of these matches if I had used the Boar Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#boarTotemClassFeatures ) (which grants the Diehard feat) instead of the Bear Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) (which grants Toughness). In each of these instances, my effective life would be extended by 9, instead of 3, but I'd be disabled after taking more than 14 points of damage. Neither of the hits that dropped me into the negatives would have killed me outright; instead, I'd be disabled, and capable of making additional attacks as a standard action (and I had a better to-hit chance if I made a single attack than the fighter did).

I was, in fact, also undone by my own suboptimal choices, of which that was one. :smallbiggrin:

[TheMeMan]

I responded (but wasn't able to get my answer in before the 11:00 shut down of the site :smallmad:). I hope everything is resolved. I'm sorry about the confusion, but I was not talking about Burnaby J. Rockefeller III returning to Medium size, but instead his spear (which, as an unattended item, automatically returned to its normal size the moment I used a free action to drop it, as per the wording on Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm)). I am still Large-sized, take the -2 DEX penalty and the -1 Size penalty to AC (dropping my AC from 19 as Medium to 17 as Large), so I take the attack as normal, and it drops me to -2 Hit Points.

Again, the fighter survives by a single blow.

EDIT: By the way, I know that it's a low-op party that we're fighting here, but I just wanted to point out how interesting it is, to me at least, that the thing that's killed me both rounds isn't that the wizard is easily subverting my tactics or bending me over his knee and spanking me with reality-bending shenanigans: It's that the fighter has enough health to survive a hit, enough AC to avoid an attack, and enough of a to-hit bonus to have a meaningful chance to hit. In both games, my undoing was a STR-loaded full-BAB class, and it was his numbers that did me in.

EDIT II: Consider also what might have happened in each of these matches if I had used the Boar Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#boarTotemClassFeatures ) (which grants the Diehard feat) instead of the Bear Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) (which grants Toughness). In each of these instances, my effective life would be extended by 9, instead of 3, but I'd be disabled after taking more than 14 points of damage. Neither of the hits that dropped me into the negatives would have killed me outright; instead, I'd be disabled, and capable of making additional attacks as a standard action (and I had a better to-hit chance if I made a single attack than the fighter did).

I was, in fact, also undone by my own suboptimal choices, of which that was one. :smallbiggrin:

I find that interesting as well. As pointed out, the Wizard was lo-op with heavy restrictions placed. That said, it does seem to point out the weakness of a Wizard in many cases: They simply cannot survive even a single hit. What's even more interesting is that the Fighter has been the only one to actually survive. The others simply don't have the hitpoints to handle it, not even the Cleric. It does seem to point that the Fighter although very weak in the lategame, has significantly more longevity earlier on than the other classes presented, and significantly more than most in this thread give it credit for(Which, as you stated, made all the difference in the world). A group of even decently optimized Wizards might even be destroyed by AoO alone, What with casting on an enlarged Barbarian with Combat Reflexes or attempting to move out of threatened areas. Your average hits were well above the average hitpoints of a wizard, and even with higher Con and better rolls you'd still be sweeping them(And that's even considering mage armor, as you generally would be hitting most anyway).

Quite an interesting turn, really.

And NOW I'm off.

Maybe.

[Coidzor]

Technically, you can trade him for an animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard), though I don't believe you can get anything like a wolf (since you're at half level).

Doesn't really work to have an effective druid level of 1/2 though, and one can get a wolf as one of the basic animal companions for level 1 druids. :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

I´ve always seen this as: you use your mount expending YOUR move action,
Travel Devotion lets you move your speed. So you can move your mount.Mount uses it's own actions to move. A mount could take Travel Devotion to move around more. :smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

I find that interesting as well. As pointed out, the Wizard was lo-op with heavy restrictions placed. That said, it does seem to point out the weakness of a Wizard in many cases: They simply cannot survive even a single hit. What's even more interesting is that the Fighter has been the only one to actually survive. The others simply don't have the hitpoints to handle it, not even the Cleric. It does seem to point that the Fighter although very weak in the lategame, has significantly more longevity earlier on than the other classes presented, and significantly more than most in this thread give it credit for(Which, as you stated, made all the difference in the world). A group of even decently optimized Wizards might even be destroyed by AoO alone, What with casting on an enlarged Barbarian with Combat Reflexes or attempting to move out of threatened areas. Your average hits were well above the average hitpoints of a wizard, and even with higher Con and better rolls you'd still be sweeping them(And that's even considering mage armor, as you generally would be hitting most anyway).

Quite an interesting turn, really.

And NOW I'm off.

Maybe.

NOT SO FAST!

No, OK, you can go to bed. Good night. I have to go after this too, anyway. Tomorrow's a school day and I need to give the class a stern talking-to in the morning. :smallbiggrin:

But I did come here to post, for those interested, the attack and damage rolls I would have made if I was a Boar Totem Barbarian and not Bear Totem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12580840#post12580840). With the Diehard feat, I would have remained stable after being knocked into the negatives each time, allowing me to make a single standard action each round. In each case, the one attack I would have made in the round immediately following my being hit into the negatives would have both hit and killed the fighter before he had a chance to deliver a final finishing blow.

In other words: I lost 0-2, but if I was a Boar Totem Barbarian instead, I could be 2-0. This is important to know, because this was the difference between not one, but two rounds of this match-play, and in the third, I will be using the Boar Totem.

This is not a fluke. Thus far, it's happened twice out of two games where I've come one hit away from success (and that one hit was within my grasp, even if using SRD content alone). Barbarians can do this consistently, or at least come close. I stand by my original position that they are among the strongest classes in the game at level 1.

And it is important to note a few other things:
1) In my battle tactics as well as Phaederkiel's, it's just assumed that the wizard is going to die in the first round. TheMeMan has summarized why quite well. Basically, I drop the wizard into the negatives on a minimum roll of my greataxe while enraged, which means all I have to do is make a successful attack against the wizard's pathetic AC to trigger a cleave (as any damage roll will do). In all cases, my battle tactics relied on me being able to just cleave through the wizard quickly and be done with it, using him as a way to leverage a free second attack against another foe. The wizard is the weak link in the chain, and when you want to cut up a chain, you always aim to break the weak link first.

2) It's worth noting that the only scroll I picked up for the purposes of Use Magic Device was scroll of Enlarge Person, but I devoted half my starting wealth (and made certain unoptimized accommodations, such as swapping my greatsword for a greataxe) to get three of them, just to give myself a better chance of getting at least one to work. At 3d6+12, I become a force to be reckoned with, killing everyone but the fighter on average damage (the cleric, at 22 HP, about matches the average damage of 3d6+12, which is 20.5). This isn't just a significant amount of damage at level 1; it's total overkill. Moreover, my effective threat radius with that greataxe (or greatsword; they both evolve to 3d6) becomes 10 feet, and if I decide to also wield a spear, that radius extends to 20 feet. At those ranges, enemies provoke attacks of opportunities just by trying to get near me, and when they do, I shish kebob them. Even in a mid-op game, barbarians are likely to be your single highest damage-dealers, but more importantly, an Enlarged barbarian becomes perhaps the wizard's single best defense against melee: a friendly wizard standing within 5 feet of an Enlarged barbarian or fighter wielding a reach weapon of any kind (spiked chain, guisarme, halberd, spear, etc) can be safe in the knowledge that anything that tries to base the wizard provokes attacks of opportunity against the barbarian. If that barbarian took Combat Reflexes as his level 1 feat, and is using Ferocity instead of normal rage? Fuggedaboutit. Ain't nothin' gonna touch you or your big barbarian friend.

There was a point buried in all that, and it's this: when I said that, in core, an optimized wizard's best option is to play second fiddle to the thug with the greatsword, I meant it. Enlarge Person, applied correctly, is battlefield control with an effective reach just shy of Obscuring Mist, with a longer duration; an effect similar to Web or Grease, but more complete in nature and severe in consequence (enemies don't move or act, or they will die); more average damage than you will ever do with Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands or Magic Missile (OK, so if you use a longspear and the attributes I used, you're talking about 2d6+12 while in rage, which is an average damage of 19; Shocking Grasp shares the first 2d6 damage as it levels up, for an average damage of 7, but the damage modifier of +12 does more than the average damage of the extra 3d6 of Shocking Grasp at level 5, which is 10.5; Burning Hands' average damage is 12.5 at fifth level, Reflex half; Magic Missile's average damage at 9th level, when you get your fifth missile, is 17.5); no save to avoid awesome, unlike Color Spray and Sleep; more durable and powerful than Summon Monster I and lasts ten times as long (and doesn't wink out of existence when the spell effect ends); and is entirely mobile, meaning if your battlefield control isn't relevant because the focus of battle has changed, your Enlarged barbarian can move to a new place of relevance. Try getting Grease to do that!

When you put these two together, you can have an unstoppable killing force at level 1; but if you separate them (perhaps the barbarian leaves because he's sick of the wizard talking about being Batman?), the barbarian's still got a greatsword and 12+CON mod HP, while the wizard is cool for one or two rounds a day, and a commoner with a crossbow the rest.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Doesn't really work to have an effective druid level of 1/2 though, and one can get a wolf as one of the basic animal companions for level 1 druids. :smallconfused:

Then a wolf is allowable,

Which probably affects the sorcerer and wizard's placement on the chart on its own. (Maybe I should just insert Wolf into the power-by-level chart at level 1?)

As a DM, however, I'd probably, at level 1, impose a limit to the effect of only being able to select a CR 1/2 or lower creature (since the effective CR limit of a level 1 Druid's animal companion is CR 1). Since CR does exist in stages below 1 (unlike levels), it's easy to make the distinction between a creature that a sorcerer/wizard can take with an effective half of one level, and what a druid can take with a full level:

CR 1 (druids only): camel, riding dog, horse, snake (medium), wolf
CR 1/2 or lower (sorcerer, wizard, and druid): badger, dire rat, dog, eagle, hawk, owl, snake (small)

Of course, this isn't RAW, but there are also no rules to interpret on this; the "familiar for animal companion" ACF in Unearthed Arcana was given so little attention in the book (literally only two or three sentences about it were written) that we can be guaranteed it's almost as poorly thought-out as the arcane swordsage. There really isn't a precedent set for what's allowed when "1/2 your druid level" means less than 1, but in nearly every case, you simply round down to 0. You can't trade something for nothing, however, even when you get the bum end of the trade, so either that means you get an animal companion from that list at level 2 (which doesn't exist), you get anything from the list at level 1 (which is dubious), or you split the difference (which isn't RAW).

It's a judgment call TheMeMan will have to make, because I am not dexter's opponent in this challenge. He's our neutral third party, and he's running the opposing party (and thus anything that works in the game works on his agreement).

[Greenish]

Maybe I should just insert Wolf into the power-by-level chart at level 1?Not a bad idea, though Riding Dog would be the stronger option, with higher Strength and natural armour.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Not a bad idea, though Riding Dog would be the stronger option, with higher Strength and natural armour.

But no Trip.

Does this mean I'm putting both in? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Nevermind. A riding dog "trained for war" makes trip attempts as a wolf. So good.

[Greenish]

But no Trip.yes, they do have trip.

[Lonely Tylenol]

yes, they do have trip.

Sorry, but I ninja'd you on the edit when I caught myself. :smallwink:

Where does this place the riding dog? #5, just behind the fighter? Its raw stats are nice (13 HP, 16 AC), but they aren't something a fighter can't emulate (with D10 Hit Dice, a fighter gets 13 HP with 16 CON; the fighter's AC can match the wolf's in touch, flat and full with 14 DEX and a chain shirt). Trip is nice (heck, it's more than nice at that level), but the fighter can do more or less the same (Combat Expertise as a level 1 feat + Improved Trip as a fighter bonus feat), but has the option of forgoing this strategy to do something else (like Power Attack + Cleave, or Mounted Combat + Spirited Charge). In other words, the riding dog can be strictly equal to a fighter built a specific way, but the fighter has the advantage of diversity of options.

I would be edging it just ahead of the rogue in this spot, which has the possibility for more power (sneak attack dice) but has limited combat applications. The riding dog is fixed in its stats, but actually has some decent skills for tracking (Listen, Spot and Survival +5 while tracking for scent).

[Greenish]

Where does this place the riding dog? #5, just behind the fighter? Its raw stats are nice (13 HP, 16 AC), but they aren't something a fighter can't emulate (with D10 Hit Dice, a fighter gets 13 HP with 16 CON; the fighter's AC can match the wolf's in touch, flat and full with 14 DEX and a chain shirt).Chain shirt's sort of expensive on first level. Leather barding for a dog would be just 20 gp for +2 AC. Granted, if you're a druid or a wiz/sorc, you won't have so much to spread around, but still. 10 gp would get it padded barding for +1.


Trip is nice (heck, it's more than nice at that level), but the fighter can do more or less the same (Combat Expertise as a level 1 feat + Improved Trip as a fighter bonus feat)Yeah, fighter will have higher trip modifier, but the dog can't be tripped back, so that's equal.


In other words, the riding dog can be strictly equal to a fighter built a specific way, but the fighter has the advantage of diversity of options.Fighter as a class has a diversity of options, but no single character does.

The real difference comes from the stat generation method: the dog's stats are fixed, so the more generous the stat generation is, the better off the fighter is.

[Phaederkiel]

View Post
I understand it being that phae and I ended up playing entirely different games. I am still using SRD content, and playing what could be seen as a high-op, but ultimately SRD-ready barbarian; he is playing with splat access (spirit lion totem from CC, non-SRD feats).



well, yes. But you took flaws, which i did not, and which can and will change the strategy massively. You use scrolls (and I have not understand yet how you get to use them in your preparing rounds).

and the feats i use? The much maligned Improved Initiative (which has already once won me the start. If the rogue obscured the way to charge, I would have probably lost against the wizard)

and Saddleback. Now tell me that this is a good feat, anyone? I took it because I could not afford a friggin' saddle, thats why.

If I had (as possible by raw) a warbeast donkey or mule, I could have easily bought a saddle for it...


and I think it´s obvious that a Human fighter could do even better than I am doing right now, mounted combat, spirited charge, ride by attack. Good luck catching him.

Fighter is too low on the scale. Yes, he takes a dive after lvl 2, but I think he is third, after Druid and babarian, perhaps even before barbarian at lvl 1.
Keep in mind: this is without flaws, so his feats matter.

[Clawhound]

What's even more interesting is that the Fighter has been the only one to actually survive. The others simply don't have the hitpoints to handle it, not even the Cleric. It does seem to point that the Fighter although very weak in the lategame, has significantly more longevity earlier on than the other classes presented, and significantly more than most in this thread give it credit for(Which, as you stated, made all the difference in the world).

I've been saying that for years and getting dismissed by optimizers. The fighter's main power is not dying against melee attacks. Boring AC + Hit Points do a whole lot more than you think they do. Despite all the corner cases thrown around, 90% of all opponents still try to kill you by assaulting you. By the numbers, a high AC is good to have. Every swing against a fighter that misses is a cure spell unneeded.

I think your observation is the origin of "fighters are fine" that may people present. They see the fighter standing up well due to AC in the early games (levels 1-6), and then getting just enough magic items to make a fun mid game (levels 7-10). That's where the bulk of where most people play D&D.

Levels 11+ are their own weird beast, and I don't think there's a game where the DM is not actively fixing the rules.

[ahenobarbi]

core means: no nerveskitter.
without nerveskitter, it is even less probable than the

1 in 4 you propose

which I do not know how you arrive at.


chance to win against non-optimized party´s ini
Wizard +3 to ini
against
Rogue +4 to ini, hopefully +8 (about 3 of 10)
Fighter +2 to ini (about 6 of 10)
cleric -1 to ini (about 7of 10)
wizard +2 to ini (about 6 of 10)

about 756 of 10 000. the chances to defeat all of them are about less than one percent. The most probable to ge to act before you is the rogue, who can easily kill you as long as you are flatfooted.
Note that I gave your wizard a higher ini than everyone else, because he optimized fighting adventurers, and they didn´t optimize fighting him.



so, less than one percent probability to defeat 4 peoples ini at once.

I know it was posted a while back, but probability of winning initiative is a lot higher than your estimate, it's about 25% with initiative modifiers you suggested (about 51% with nerveskitter).

This doesn't
Details:

There is one flaw in you reasoning: winning initiative against party members are not independent random events, so you can't just multiply probabilities.

For example if our kobold rolled 20 (5%) he'd beat everyone - except rogue, who needs to roll 19 or 20 to win ini (kobold wins with probability 90%), which gives him 4.5% - already more then your estimate.

So how should one calculate this? You need law of total probability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability).

I - random event (kobold wins initiative)

Using law of total probability probability of wining initiative is equal to sum of
probabilities kobold will win initiative for possible kobold roll result / 20 (because all roll results have probability = 1/20), so

P(I) = 1/20 * [P(I|K=1) + P(I|K=2) + ... + P(I|K=20)]

Calculating P(I|K=x) (probability that kobold will win initiative if it rolled x) is simple (multiply chances of beating each party member (now - once we know kobold's roll result this are independent events)).

Doing it by hand is hassle, so I prepared a spreed sheet for ya, feel free to make a copy and tinker with it (note that rogue has a bit different formula - because [s]he has higher ini modifier [s]he will win on equal ini results).

here it is (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjRGCv3ttdhydEt3VC1SZk5ieHVKSFFKcjZxODFtR mc)




The saving throw is more probable at:

lets say dc 16
against:
fighter +1 (you get him about 7 of ten times)
rogue +1 (about 7 of ten)
Cleric +7 (about 4 of ten)
wizard+2 (about 7 of ten)

about 1327 of 10 000 chance to get them all against an party who neglected their will saves (except the cleric), oblivious of the upcoming fight.

wow, baby, about 1,3 percent chance to get them all.

EDIT: Actually with your estimates it's over 13% chance to get'em all you made error dividing 1327 by 10 000 :smallwink:
Well if you calculate this more accurately it's

15/20 * 15/20 * 8/20 * 14/20 = 0.1575 = 15.75%

A bit better. So total probability of winning initiative and getting everyone with one spell is about

15.75% * 25% = 3.9375 %

not much but a way more, than your estimate ("1 003 212 of 1 000 000 000 as in 0,001 percent").

And he had 4 trials so probability of doing it at least once in 4 trials is over 14.8%. Still lucky but not miracle lucky :smallbiggrin:


w = 3.9375 % - probability of winning one attempt
l = (1 - p) = 96.0625% - probability loosing one attempt
l^4 = l*l*l*l = 85.2% - probability of failing four trials (rounded up)
1 - l^4 = 14,8% - probability of wining at least one trial

[dextercorvia]

I'm happy to see that it is already being discussed, because I was going to come in today to ask about getting the Animal Companion variant.

It states:


VariantGain

Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level).


A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list...

That said, it doesn't seem that you initial choice is tied to level, just where you hit on the advancement table, and your ability to swap out later.

I'm not claiming that I have the 100% RAW answer. Obviously I'm biased, as this is the best familiar trade in OGL. This is just the best argument I can find supporting it. I fully recognize the existence of the Round Down rule.

So, I'm asking TheMeMan to weigh in as our DM.

As far as the fighter being the last one standing in your battles, I think that is because: 1: you are targetting the lower HP guys first, either for Cleave, or to reduce the action disadvantage quickly, and 2: You are pitting your numbers against someone with the same basic abilities, but greater numbers. I'm most worried about the Wizard for a similar reason.

[Greenish]

Obviously I'm biased, as this is the best familiar trade in OGL.Rapid Summoning is pretty good, too, though not at the first level.

[Incanur]

While barbarians do indeed excel at combat at level 1, that doesn't necessarily mean they deserve a huge tier bump for the start of the game. Barbarians can charge for massive damage at any level. That's what they do. The low-level caster still has a far more versatile set of options.

[dextercorvia]

Rapid Summoning is pretty good, too, though not at the first level.

Yeah, not unless I can coat the battlefield with a couple of feet of water, and even then, it probably isn't the most efficient way to go.

[TheMeMan]

I'm happy to see that it is already being discussed, because I was going to come in today to ask about getting the Animal Companion variant.

It states:




That said, it doesn't seem that you initial choice is tied to level, just where you hit on the advancement table, and your ability to swap out later.

I'm not claiming that I have the 100% RAW answer. Obviously I'm biased, as this is the best familiar trade in OGL. This is just the best argument I can find supporting it. I fully recognize the existence of the Round Down rule.

So, I'm asking TheMeMan to weigh in as our DM.

As far as the fighter being the last one standing in your battles, I think that is because: 1: you are targetting the lower HP guys first, either for Cleave, or to reduce the action disadvantage quickly, and 2: You are pitting your numbers against someone with the same basic abilities, but greater numbers. I'm most worried about the Wizard for a similar reason.

Well, I'm going to interpret as strictly as possible given what we have (Which isn't much), and side with you on this. The strictest reading of "Begins play" would indicate that you would, if taking the variant at first level, have an Animal Companion listed in the starting Druid options.

The only restriction, however, is that it must be chosen from the Aquatic list. So you get a porpoise, Medium Shark, or Squid. :smallamused:

That said, if you want a wolf, I'll allow it, as the UA variant falls within the rules, and there really isn't to much to go on here.

[dextercorvia]

The only restriction, however, is that it must be chosen from the Aquatic list. So you get a porpoise, Medium Shark, or Squid. :smallamused:

My Jocularimeter is wonky today, but Joke, right?

[Coidzor]

and I think it´s obvious that a Human fighter could do even better than I am doing right now, mounted combat, spirited charge, ride by attack. Good luck catching him.

Assuming that Ride By Attack and mounted combat have been fixed so that they're both sane and work, yeah.

[dextercorvia]

I hate to even ask, but are Wands available with fewer charges?

[Lonely Tylenol]

well, yes. But you took flaws, which i did not, and which can and will change the strategy massively. You use scrolls (and I have not understand yet how you get to use them in your preparing rounds).

and the feats i use? The much maligned Improved Initiative (which has already once won me the start. If the rogue obscured the way to charge, I would have probably lost against the wizard)

and Saddleback. Now tell me that this is a good feat, anyone? I took it because I could not afford a friggin' saddle, thats why.

I was actually talking about Pounce. It's well-known that the interaction between Whirling Frenzy and Pounce is one of the strongest tactics in the game; it's essentially Flurry of Blows, but with an additional +3 to each hit over a monk with equivalent stats, the ability to move while full-attacking (and up to twice your movement speed, mind you), and with a free +2 dodge bonus to AC with it, and it works with mounted combat, inexplicably.

I didn't mean to discount your game or anything; I just meant to say that you are exploring the higher end of the barbarian's class feature interactions (Whirling Frenzy/Pounce), which requires splat access. I'm sorry to have offended.


and I think it´s obvious that a Human fighter could do even better than I am doing right now, mounted combat, spirited charge, ride by attack. Good luck catching him.

Fighter is too low on the scale. Yes, he takes a dive after lvl 2, but I think he is third, after Druid and babarian, perhaps even before barbarian at lvl 1.
Keep in mind: this is without flaws, so his feats matter.

There is a strong case being made here for the fighter being above the cleric, but I don't know if I could place him above the barbarian. While it's true that a Human fighter could perform the feat interaction that my Wood Elf Barbarian could not without flaws, he could not do so with quite as much efficiency as the barbarian (due to lack of access to Rage), so his ceiling is lower in terms of sheer power in this respect. Further, in lower-op games (where optimization is equal), feats have the potential to be truly terrible, where core rage is almost never bad, and only gets better when you explore ACFs (such as whirling frenzy, or ferocity with Combat Reflexes).

They are close, and the fighter has more customization of options, but the barbarian can do many of the better of these things strictly better than the fighter, because of unique class features (I can and will elaborate on this when I get home, but I am at lunch and on my phone right now, and this is getting tiresome). Think of it as the difference between sorcerer and wizard: The wizard is more modular and has greater diversity of options, but the sorcerer has more raw power at that level. (The difference is that this changes for the wizard and sorcerer, but not for the fighter and barbarian.)

[Greenish]

and it works with mounted combat, inexplicably.Does it? Mounted combat is so poorly written, I can't tell.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Does it? Mounted combat is so poorly written, I can't tell.

Well, you pounce at the end of a charge, and you can charge while mounted, so...

I think these two features (mounted combat and pounce) were written without the other in mind, and simply never corrected. After all, Pounce is a monstrous ability, and for quite a long time after the two were written, "riding into combat" and "pouncing following a charge" were two mutually exclusive things. It's stupid, but, and someone correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm posting from phone away-from-books), RAW-legal.

[dextercorvia]

Glitch repair

[Greenish]

Do you charge with your mount? The text from Mounted combat says:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.I think it could go either way, especially since it also says you can only make a single melee attack if your mount moves more than 5', which pounce doesn't really give an exception for.

Also, there were ways for PCs to gain Pounce before 3.5 was even written.

[Phaederkiel]

the ride skill says something about a check to attack together with your mount.
It doesn´t mention how many times...



I was actually talking about Pounce. It's well-known that the interaction between Whirling Frenzy and Pounce is one of the strongest tactics in the game; it's essentially Flurry of Blows, but with an additional +3 to each hit over a monk with equivalent stats, the ability to move while full-attacking (and up to twice your movement speed, mind you), and with a free +2 dodge bonus to AC with it, and it works with mounted combat, inexplicably.

I didn't mean to discount your game or anything; I just meant to say that you are exploring the higher end of the barbarian's class feature interactions (Whirling Frenzy/Pounce), which requires splat access. I'm sorry to have offended.

you have in no way offended. I am sorry if I sounded offended (that sounds weird, same word for active and passive...).

I only think that flaws are far more optimisation than variant classes. I think the sole difference between our effectivity is not pounce (which you emulate nicely with cleave), but my decision to sit on a horse. And my decision to eat the fighter first.


and I just wanted to tell the naysayers:

Imp Ini wins fights.


Tell me otherwise, I dare you.

[Greenish]

and I just wanted to tell the naysayers:

Imp Ini wins fights.


Tell me otherwise, I dare you.You keep acting as if that's some huge new discovery that's frequently disputed. :smallconfused:

[TheMeMan]

I hate to even ask, but are Wands available with fewer charges?

As long as you keep within the Max Starting Gold limitation, yes. But be fore-warned: There are no warning here. So remember that.

Also, I was joking about the Aquatic animals.

[TheMeMan]

Do you charge with your mount? The text from Mounted combat says: I think it could go either way, especially since it also says you can only make a single melee attack if your mount moves more than 5', which pounce doesn't really give an exception for.

Also, there were ways for PCs to gain Pounce before 3.5 was even written.

Yeah, it's quite hazy and an interaction I don't think was foreseen to be an issue. The main reason I allowed it is that there is some rather contradictory text in the books, and some vague wording at best. In cases such as that, I tend to give the players the benefit of the doubt on the issue, and tend to rule in their favor. Unless, of course, it is purely a stretch.

As for the pounce at the end, once again it's a bit of a hazy decision, I know, but once again vague rules and descriptions tend to be ruled in favor of the player over others.

Granted, it's personal play-style at the end of it, but I find it tends to be a tad more fair than saying "no" simply because it doesn't sit well. Things would change with a different DM in this case, I imagine, with a much harder time for the players involved. But frankly, even those going strictly "by the books" will have different methods from one another(Which, might I add, I'm attempting to keep as close to RAW as possible, which is difficult given some very vague rules).

So to sum up: I'm a kind, benevolent DM when asked nicely (So long as the rules don't strictly disallow something, I'm willing to consider it). My wrath, however, is swift and powerful.

[Elboxo]

The idea that the Bard is less powerful than the Monk is ludicrous. Same with the Sorcerer being ranked lower. I think 9th level spells like Shapechange are vastly superior to Quivering Palm or Flurry of Blows or Wholeness of Body.

Balderdash! Everyone knows the usefulness of being able to be banished and take no fall damage FAR exceed the capabilities any Sorcerer can even HOPE to achieve with the likes of first level spells ( Feather Fall ) and a feat you can take at first level ( Otherworldly ).

[dextercorvia]

Would someone mind checking my sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=364041). I also have 20 gp (Unless I miscounted) left to spend, if anyone has any suggestions.

[Lonely Tylenol]

As long as you keep within the Max Starting Gold limitation, yes.

:smallconfused: I take issue with this. Scrolls exist for the explicit purpose of being one-use items; wands exist for the explicit purpose of buying items in bulk. That's why the prices listed for wands in the SRD involve 50 charges worth of price (but at the cost of 30 charges), and the scrolls involve 1 charge (but at market price). Buying single-use wands seems like a technical abuse of WBL.

Really, since there is nothing that explicitly states that a failed UMD check on a wand causes the charge to be expended, a wand is in every way superior to a scroll: the UMD check is smaller (by a margin of 1, but this still doubles my chances of success) and the wand is 3/5s cost per charge, which makes a significant difference when you're devoting roughly 1/2 your WBL to get a single buff 87.5% of the time.

I could have gone from:
1 Potion of Mage Armor
3 Scrolls of Enlarge Person
= 125 gp

To:
1 Potion of Mage Armor
2 Wands of Enlarge Person (1 charge)
2 Wands of True Strike (1 charge)
1 Wand of Shield (1 charge)
= 125 gp

And had a guaranteed Mage Armor, about an 89% chance of True Strike (33% of 33% chance of failure), about an 89% chance of Enlarge Person (as True Strike, and a couple shots at Shield before the round started. It would have impacted my odds of success significantly (take the second round, for example: there was never a time when the fighter's attacks would have hit my revised AC with Shield; I know this to be true because in both cases, he hit my AC exactly).

Many of the suboptimal decisions I made were operating under the (assumedly correct) assumption that the stated price of an item on the SRD is the only available price of an item. Phaederkial's decisions were also impacted significantly by this (his inability to buy a war-trained mule forced him to take the Saddleback feat, for instance, and invest nearly all his WBL into a mount). If Phaederkial can't so much as buy a war-trained mule (or train his own) because it's not explicitly written on the SRD table, then allowing dextercorvia to circumvent WBL limitations of trigger items by buying single-use wands over scrolls seems patently unfair.


Would someone mind checking my sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=364041). I also have 20 gp (Unless I miscounted) left to spend, if anyone has any suggestions.

I take issue with the use of single-charge wands for the reasons stated above.

I'm also not comfortable with Stand Still, but that's mostly because I mentioned that I would like to stay away from Psionics because I'm incredibly hazy on them, and not because they were ever explicitly denied (the closest we came is in the quote, below, found on page 5, which mentions Core + UA, but not Psionics, but it's following my mentioning full use of the SRD and it's kind of a cheap shot for me to renege on that), and really I'm just butt-hurt that I didn't know Stand Still was SRD legal and thus didn't use it myself. :smalltongue:


I'd be willing to run it for both you and he on Saturday, as a Play-by-Post or some other means. Stipulations being Core-Only for all party members (UA included for the player, not the enemy party as it's unoptimized and assuming only PH & Items), full WBL, and a simple grid for a map.

I'm also concerned that you're devoting your entire WBL, attribute, and feat investment into a strategy that a barbarian could do just as well (minus the spells on your actual list, which are Color Spray) without buffs, and much, much better with buffs (including the WBL-mancy listed above). From my perspective, it looks like you're using Color Spray as your one unique trick to make up for your lack of outright killing force for being wizardly, which, well... :smallconfused: OK.

I guess if I could fall back on Use Magic Device and WBL investment to emulate your buffs, then there's nothing stopping you from using feats, attributes and weapon choices to emulate my attack strategy.

EDIT: It's worth noting that even if I didn't completely pimp out my WBL-abusive barbarian with single-use wands, just replacing three Scrolls of Enlarge Person with two single-charge Wands of Enlarge Person increases the odds of getting off Enlarge Person, but also lets me drink a Potion of Shield of Faith +2 with no greater investment into UMD than I had before (in fact, less so, because of the lower DC). Really, I made my one UMD and magic item trick going Enlarged (Potion of Mage Armor is equivalent in value to Scale Mail, and while I chose it because it's mechanically superior, I don't regard it as a WBL abuse for this reason, nor did it involve any risk for me to use it, or require I use it in a way other people couldn't), but single-use wands could have enabled me to break my character open much wider just by their value alone.