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Ursus the Grim
2012-01-14, 10:28 PM
This came up as a discussion between friends and I, and I found it pretty interesting, given certain constraints. Its a case that would normally be apples to oranges, but we found certain similarities between the characters and couldn't decide who was the 'better' swordsman.

The Setup:
Countless years before the events of the Halo series, before the rise and fall of the Forerunners, Ancient Humans made their way along the path of civilization. During what resembled our modern dark ages, the oldest known alien race, the Precursors, experimented with new forms of bioweapons on a small remote human planet. These bioweapons spread and became known as monsters to the primitive humans.

During what he hoped would be his final confrontation with the entity now known as Femto, the Black Swordsman was hurled into a pocket of altered time. He would not be released until an incalculable time into the future.

A band of Jackals sells a mysterious artifact to the Vadam keep, seemingly older than even the Forerunner machines that elevated the Covenant races in ages past. The tinkerings of the keep's lone Engineer unseals it and out steps a confused and angry Guts. Disoriented and surrounded by monsters, he lifts the Dragon Slayer and charges at the biggest foe he sees.

The Arbiter, formerly known as Thel Vadam, activates his own blades and meets the challenge.

Constraints:
This is to be a match of skill and strength. The Berserker armor, cut off from the reality it belongs in and the sources that gave it power, is for most intents and purposes, inert, functioning only as a suit of full plate might. In the opening attack, Guts already used his cannon, which was dodged, but it didn't dislocate his arm or cause any lasting handicaps. The Arbiter, likewise, is only using an energy sword (optionally two), and his ceremonial armor. He will not accept the use of firearms or assistance from bystanders. His active camouflage is functioning, but essentially useless because Guts has already acquired him.

Briefs:
Guts has been a soldier all his life, from the moment he was born from the hanged corpse of a woman, and the picture of Badass Normal. He's gained incredible strength by practicing with an oversized sword, driven by his "family" at first, and then by the Band of the Hawks. Guts' size is his most obvious advantage, but he also possesses surprising speed, dexterity, and cunning. These traits, coupled with sheer ferocity and power of will, have allowed him to kill supernatural monstrosities beyond the ken of what should be possible.

Guts stands 190 cm tall, with the Dragon Slayer (more of a giant slab of iron than a sword) approximately 210 cm long and 30 cm at the base. Its weight would make it impossible for any mundane human aside from Guys to wield it, but is also the reason he can swing it with sufficient force to cut down an Apostle.

The Arbiter, like most Elites, is trained from an early age for combat, as it was their races' primary role within the covenant. After climbing his way up the Covenant heirarchy, he was ultimately blamed with the loss of the first Halo ring and assigned suicidal tasks before becoming an icon of his people during the Great Schism. Like all Elites, he is immensely strong and agile, able to match even the augmented supersoldiers known as the Spartan-IIs. Though not a race of innovators, the Arbiter has shown a willingness to experiment and a keen mind for tactics and strategy.

The Arbiter stands 240 cm tall, his energy swords approximately 1.3 meters. Essentially your Laser Blade, they are formed from ionized gas (namely plasma) held into their shape by magnetic fields. As such they can cut through most metals and flesh, but are subject to certain forces (thus, the 'impact' when two swords clash). His armor, though slightly outdated, does come with active camouflage and energy shielding, though sufficiently forceful blunt-force impact is capable of knocking out said shields.

Closing:
I don't really have a favorite for this fight, but I'm interested in what everyone thinks. Oddly enough, I think Guts might be able to overpower the Arbiter, but both of them probably have the ability to gut each other. If you think there's any parameters that need to be defined for a judgement, let me know and I'll fix it.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-14, 10:44 PM
"What does that Human think he's going to do with such a huge slab of metal and a prosthetic hand? I doubt a non-spartan like him could even lift it let alone swing that thi-"
*Crunch*

Or, you know, maybe not. Without guns though, I don't see it going well for the Arbiter. Not least because though his canon is out of action, Guts will still have ranged capability with his rapid-fire-crossbow, throwing knives, etc.

[edit] Of course Guts has the ability to overpower the Arbiter. He frequently takes on things as strong as Hunters, sometimes in large numbers and often wins such fights by sheer brute force. He's also faster and much more likely to cheat.

[edit] Most likely outcome, I'd have thought and going partially by my own likely mis-remembered reading of the Manga's style, would be that he drags the fight out into a prolonged slugfest, largely blocking the Energy-Sword/s with the Dragon slayer and his immense speed and strength, takes a few fatal looking flesh-wounds before they get to the point where the energy swords give out, unable to take any further abuse. Leaving the arbiter unarmed.
Before turning on the rest of them, guns or no guns.

Ursus the Grim
2012-01-14, 11:18 PM
Yeah, I'm sure the Dragon Slayer would one-shot the Arbiter if it connected, but I'm not certain about the crossbow or the throwing knives, hence why I didn't think to preclude them.

Then again, its been how long since I read the chapters where he doesn't have the godmode of the Berserk Armor? Perhaps I've been underestimating him.

Though the slab of metal is pretty sizable and has taken abuse, I'm not sure how it would hold up to the plasma.

Don Julio Anejo
2012-01-15, 12:56 AM
Energy Sword. Regenerating shield. 'Nuff said. Energy sword >> big slab of metal simply because it can slice it right off and leave Guts with a fat dagger after the first slash. Energy shield because it takes 3 bursts (=6 7.62x51mm rounds) from a battle rifle to knock it out. Crossbows can and will be useless, the shield will recharge faster than you can reload them.

Take away the shield and the sword and give Arbiter normal weapons though, and I'd have to give it to Guts.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-15, 11:08 AM
The point of the Dragon slayer, as opposed to the golden age arc swords Guts used to use, is that it can stand up to the demonic forces thrown at it. It's more than a match for the energy swords.

Likewise, much as I'd have loved if it were otherwise whilst playing the games, the sheilds are not so hot against suitably heavy impacts, such as explosives or the blows delivered by energy swords or hammers or even spartan fists.

The average spartan can, using just their fist, kill an elite in two punches most of the time, sheild be damned. It takes time for the sheild to regenerate, and any damage at all prevents it from happening.Gatz is quite capable of unloading a dozen or more shots from his crossbow in short succession, which may not be enough to kill the Arbiter, but it would likely drop the sheild. (After all, a similar number of Needler shots will do so, and they fly at a much slower velocity and can drop the sheild before they even deliver their explosive payload).

But he wouldn't even need to if the Arbiter is caught with his guard down, because he's more than capable of swinging the Dragon Slayer twice in no more time than it would take a spartan to swing his fist a second time and it's definately hitting with significantly more force.

Newman
2012-01-15, 03:54 PM
In any setting other than his, Guts would be a horribly broken character.

He still doesn't stand a chance against endgame JRPG heroes, such as Jacques Lacan or Negi Springfield.

Prime32
2012-01-15, 04:32 PM
In any setting other than his, Guts would be a horribly broken character.

He still doesn't stand a chance against endgame JRPG heroes, such as Jacques Lacan or Negi Springfield.I... don't understand. :smallconfused: How is a strong guy with a sword broken in every setting? Would he be broken in a setting where there's no ground and everyone has the power of flight?

Plus Negi isn't a JRPG character and Jacques Lacan was a French psychiatrist (if you meant Jack Rakan, he still isn't a JRPG character).

Jerthanis
2012-01-16, 01:39 AM
I have no idea how Guts could possibly win this, it seems like every aspect of this fight is stacked against him, both defensively and offensively. Strength I'd favor the Arbiter with, since as strong as Guts is, he's not Superhuman without the Berserker armor and the Arbiter IS Superhuman. Survivably, those shields can take a 50 calibur sniper bullet without serious injury anywhere but the head, and Guts will be cut in half by a single swipe of his opponent's sword. Everything seems stacked against Guts having a chance.

So naturally, my money's on Guts.

Ursus the Grim
2012-01-16, 11:13 AM
I... don't understand. :smallconfused: How is a strong guy with a sword broken in every setting?

^This is pretty much answered by this v.


I have no idea how Guts could possibly win this, it seems like every aspect of this fight is stacked against him, both defensively and offensively.

. . . .

So naturally, my money's on Guts.

Part of Guts' mythos, so to speak, is that he can overwhelm whatever crawls out of hell to slaughter armies and perform various unspeakable acts. He shouldn't be able to kill any Apostles, and yet he does.

Zaydos
2012-01-16, 06:59 PM
That and it's remarked several times that a human shouldn't be able to wield the Dragonslayer 2-handed; Guts has strength that far surpasses that of a normal human, through sheer guts and being born and raised on the battlefield. The dragonslayer isn't there just because it looks cool (okay that seems to be the main reason) but to also give you the feeling that yes this guy has inhuman strength.

Curious
2012-01-16, 09:49 PM
That and it's remarked several times that a human shouldn't be able to wield the Dragonslayer 2-handed; Guts has strength that far surpasses that of a normal human, through sheer guts and being born and raised on the battlefield. The dragonslayer isn't there just because it looks cool (okay that seems to be the main reason) but to also give you the feeling that yes this guy has inhuman strength.

Well, not only can he wield it two-handed, he can wield it in his teeth. While heavily injured.
. . .
Yeah, Guts takes this.