Suggestions for a 5.E Artificer?

[NeoSeraphi]

Inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228910).

What I want to see from 5.E is 3.5 mechanics, but with 4.E's balance. (Including the long-awaited return of the Base Attack Bonus, so a fighter has more of a chance to hit than a rogue again, proficiencies be damned)

That brings up a problem, however. Some fixes to 3.5 classes seem pretty easy. For example, instead of trying (and failing) to give us everything that a 2.0 druid had in 3.5, just give us a full nature-based caster with bardic spell progression and maybe one combat Wild shape, one scout wild shape, and one flight/swim wildshape. No plants, no elementals, no fighter at 1st level.

But the artificer is different. He's kind of, well...hard to place. One of the reasons an artificer is so incredibly powerful is all his bonus feats, but at the same time, if you take away even one of them, the artificer isn't able to do what he was intended to do. I suppose one way to fix this is to just get rid of item creation feats altogether and just let minimum caster levels regulate what items you are allowed to create. But I'm not sure that would drop the artificer to even Tier 2.

So how would you suggest an artificer be rebalanced for Tier 3?

[Seerow]

Rebalancing the artificer would depend too largely on how they ended up handling magic items. In a 3e system, it would be impossible to balance.

In 4e, it could be made pretty interesting by allowing the artificer to gain extra use of limited use item powers (dailies and encounter based powers), but a much smaller pool of his own powers. Combine that with a slightly reduced material components needed for the enchanting ritual, and you're pretty well set.


Personally I expect and hope that 5e's wealth/magic system is vastly different from either 3.5 or 4e, but if that is the case it's nearly impossible to model how the Artificer should work.

For example, tith a magic item system of the type I favor (something with a heavy foundation in incarnum, where you have essence that items are bound to as a limiting factor, and you can invest more into an item to get a more powerful effect), he might be able to bind extra magic items, or bind more essence into a single item, or switch which items are bound multiple times per day rather than only once a day.

[NeoSeraphi]

Hmm..right I didn't consider that. The artificer class does depend far too heavily on the system itself for us to suggest anything. Oh well. It'll be interesting to see how WotC handles it.

[undead hero]

I've always liked the idea of an artificer but never the end product.

3.5 and 4e both just made me feel like dogbert and say "Bah"

If they are bringing back BAB then I really really hope they change it to where if a fighter attacks 4 times his BAB doesn't decrease with each attack. In kendo when I attack someone's wrist it usually makes it easier not harder for me to hit their head.

Something like... When you hit BAB 5 you gain 2 attacks at your full BAB. At BAB 10 you gain 2 attacks at BAB 10.

Maybe this could be a fighter's class ability... Though I understand why Rogues can hit just as easily as a fighter since they rely on precision and are trained to get past defenses, not go through them like a fighter ;P.

But I've gotten off topic...

Unless the economic system changes I don't see the Artificer being balanced.

[Manateee]

If you're trying to fit a 3e Artificer into a game with a Duskblade, Crusader et al, the PF Alchemist isn't far from what I'd expect.

Basically, if you want to put an Artificer (a class with powerful and limitless options) on the same level as a bunch of classes with powerful but limited options, you need to limit its options.

The most basic limitation you'd need is to disallow them to just make anything, the way they do in 3e. Either make the Artificer pick and choose the items it can make/the spells it can use in crafting (limited to a very small selection, like 2 items or 1 spell per level) or give it an explicit list of items it can make (if you want to keep players creative, maybe provide a explicit list of spell trigger effects and numerical bonuses that can be mixed and matched).

The way the feats interact with crafting, you're right that the Artificer can't really go without them without restructuring the whole item creation system, but you can still ask the Artificer to step outside that system and perform an analogous task in its own way.

[Alienist]

Hmm..right I didn't consider that. The artificer class does depend far too heavily on the system itself for us to suggest anything. Oh well. It'll be interesting to see how WotC handles it.

The problem with Artificer is that while the idea of bunches of free feats seems really awesome up front, and, after all, who doesnt lie magic items?

In actual fact there already exist (in most campaigns) effectively an unlimited supply of NPCs that do this.

When your entire class can be invalidated/replaced by having an NPC divine crafter buddy and an arcane NPC crafter who owes you a favour or two.

It'd be like if WotC made a class that was really really good at shoeing horses.
... or .... you could just visit the blacksmith.

This is not to say you can't have fun with the class, but note that you are taking what is primarily an NPC support role as your class chassis.

Artificers really stand out in two situations. The first one is a magic-poor world, where payers CANNOT buy magic items because no one makes them.

The second is E6 where, depending on how the DM wants it (specifically caster level boosts) to work, the players don't have access to high power items unless they have an artificer.

[Manateee]

It'd be like if WotC made a class that was really really good at shoeing horses.
Just a quick reminder:
You're talking about a class that can cast every spell in the game before straightclassed full spellcasters; also a class that can apply uncapped metamagic to spells even without splatbook diving.

[NeoSeraphi]

The problem with Artificer is that while the idea of bunches of free feats seems really awesome up front, and, after all, who doesnt lie magic items?

In actual fact there already exist (in most campaigns) effectively an unlimited supply of NPCs that do this.

When your entire class can be invalidated/replaced by having an NPC divine crafter buddy and an arcane NPC crafter who owes you a favour or two.

It'd be like if WotC made a class that was really really good at shoeing horses.
... or .... you could just visit the blacksmith.

This is not to say you can't have fun with the class, but note that you are taking what is primarily an NPC support role as your class chassis.

Artificers really stand out in two situations. The first one is a magic-poor world, where payers CANNOT buy magic items because no one makes them.

The second is E6 where, depending on how the DM wants it (specifically caster level boosts) to work, the players don't have access to high power items unless they have an artificer.

...No. First of all, you have XP reserves. Secondly, you are able to freely apply metamagic to wands and staves just by burning charges, letting you make a staff with enervation, for example, and burn a few charges in order to bust out a maximized empowered split twinned enervation. (13 charges total, but it dishes out 32 + 1/2 8d4 negative levels in one action)

[shadow_archmagi]

When your entire class can be invalidated/replaced by having an NPC divine crafter buddy and an arcane NPC crafter who owes you a favour or two.


"Actually crafting items" is just one thing an artificer can do. (Also, keep in mind that crafting costs half as much as buying)

Artificers also get Weapon and Armor infusions which means they can buff allies with any enchantment in the game (and at much lower levels than you'd actually see access to +5 armor, and more importantly, +5 armor type effects. Hey guys, let's all go swim in the acid lake! Acid Resist 20 for EVERYONE!)

Artificers also get the Spell Storing Item infusion, which essentially says "Spend 1 minute and a little XP to create a free scroll of any spell you want, up to 4th level." (glibness, knock, restoration, remove curse, remove disease, fly, etc etc etc on demand. After all, once someone has Mummy Rot, you don't want to spend a week getting back to town to cure it.)

Artificers also get the Metamagic Item infusion, which says "Cast this on a wand. That wand now has metamagic. Isn't life great?" (There's no scorching ray like Twin scorching ray)

Artificers can also apply metamagic without the infusion, but that eats charges so it's rarely cost effective. Also, your DM will kick you in the shins if you try to apply three or four at once anyway.