Need help with my Monk build.

[Hitaro9]

So, I recently died in our campaign, and have made a new character. I currently have no idea where to go with him, and am pretty bad at research. I was wondering if you guys could help me with my monk.

Race: Changeling

Levels: Monk 6
Fist of the Forest 3
Warshaper 2

I took the Vow of Poverty and have the Saint template.

So, any ideas where to go from here? I was thinking about taking a one level dip into Tattooed monk but have no idea where to go from there.

[Drelua]

How about a dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce instead of Fast Movement, and to get you into Frostrager from Frostburn. They get bonuses to unarmed damage. They have to have the feat that gives them the cold subtype while raging (Frozen Berserker) so if your worried about the Vulnerability to Fire ask your DM how it interacts with Blazing Berserker from Sandstorm, which gives you the fire subtype while raging. I'd say it just makes you immune to fire and cold damage, and I've seen some DMs agree, but I've also seen some that have a problem with this. You may want to take Extra Rage (CWar) especially if you only take 1 Barbarian level, but you could certainly take more.

[Godskook]

Question: Is this character "already in play" or are you still building him?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

How kosher is Dragon Magazine with your group? This is a very important question.

[Hitaro9]

Already in play, and I'm pretty sure my DM is fine with Dragon Magazine.

Thanks for the suggestions by the way Drelua. I'll definitely look into those.

[Quietus]

The third and fourth levels aren't bad for Warshaper, particularly if your DM doesn't like you getting healed up from wands under your Vow. At the very least, the third level of Warshaper will get you reach and +1 to ref/will saves, which is really quite good.

Have you considered Kensai, to get other enchantments on your unarmed strikes? Nabbing Ghost Touch, Wounding, elemental damage enchants and other boosts would be useful, and if you pick up Concentration ranks, the Power Surge and Withstand abilities ought to be nice as well.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Bugger, most of the suggestions I had would have involved building the character. But if you are already in play I would look at the item Sparring Dummy of the Master in A&E pg 137. It will let you take 10ft steps instead of 5ft steps. It is quite helpful especially on a hit & run type of combat style like the monk has (however ineffective it may be). Infernal VoP, one of the biggest traps in the entire game and anyone who wants to play monk falls for it...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oh man, VoP... no way of getting flight from a magic item. Ignore what WotC says, monks depend heavily on items. Warshaper helps, but it doesn't cover flight.

[ahenobarbi]

Maybe Drunken Master from Complete Warrior (you'll have to steal or be for your booze because of First of the Forest)?

[Chronos]

Vow of Poverty is very often misunderstood. A lot of players think of it as "Wow, that gives me a lot of great stuff; I'll give up my items so I can take it". Looked at that way, it's a terrible mistake, since you can get much better stuff, and a wider variety of it, from items. What it's really meant for is players who go "I'd like to play a character who gives up all his worldly goods, because I think that would be a cool character concept. But that would suck completely-- I need to find a way to make it suck less.". In that situation, it's a must-have.

[Devmaar]

Guys, the character's already in play. The anti-VoP posts may be true but they're not really helpful.

Anyway, I agree with Quietus on the Kensai (Complete Warrior). The enhancements are useful, and you have no other way of getting them.

[Drelua]

Anyway, I agree with Quietus on the Kensai (Complete Warrior). The enhancements are useful, and you have no other way of getting them.

Of course you do. Necklace of Natural Attacks. Like an Amulet of Mighty Fists, but reasonably priced.

[ahenobarbi]

Of course you do. Necklace of Natural Attacks. Like an Amulet of Mighty Fists, but reasonably priced.

But he has Vow of Poverty so he can't really use it, right?

[Drelua]

But he has Vow of Poverty so he can't really use it, right?

Well, now I feel like an idiot. Never mind, Kensai fits this perfectly.

[Hitaro9]

Oh wow, didn't know Vow of Poverty was that bad, though I do appreciate the advice.

After looking over Kensai, it does look useful, and I'll start taking levels in it. Thanks guys. Not sure if I'm able to delete this thread or not (sorry I'm new) but if not, you can consider this closed.

Thanks again.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

There is a way to get magical items without breaking your VoP. By taking one level of Apostle of Peace you are allowed items that give you AC.

"Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Apostles of peace gain no
proficiency with any weapon or armor.
As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of
peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of
peace spells or use any of his supernatural
class abilities while doing so and for 24
hours thereafter."

If you can find a way to get an item the ability to confer at least +1 to AC then you can wear it.

[SaintRidley]

There is a way to get magical items without breaking your VoP. By taking one level of Apostle of Peace you are allowed items that give you AC.

"Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Apostles of peace gain no
proficiency with any weapon or armor.
As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of
peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of
peace spells or use any of his supernatural
class abilities while doing so and for 24
hours thereafter."

If you can find a way to get an item the ability to confer at least +1 to AC then you can wear it.

Interesting. Obviously magic armor counts as a magic item that confers an armor bonus, so theoretically if we could get magic armor that grants flight on you we could make things workable.

Anyone know any off the top of their heads.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Interesting. Obviously magic armor counts as a magic item that confers an armor bonus, so theoretically if we could get magic armor that grants flight on you we could make things workable.

Anyone know any off the top of their heads.
Look more closely.

There is a way to get magical items without breaking your VoP. By taking one level of Apostle of Peace you are allowed items that give you AC.

"Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Apostles of peace gain no
proficiency with any weapon or armor.
As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of
peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of
peace spells or use any of his supernatural
class abilities while doing so and for 24
hours thereafter."

If you can find a way to get an item the ability to confer at least +1 to AC then you can wear it.

[Curmudgeon]

How about a dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce instead of Fast Movement, and to get you into Frostrager from Frostburn. They get bonuses to unarmed damage. They have to have the feat that gives them the cold subtype while raging (Frozen Berserker)
That dip is dramatically incompatible with the Monk class.
Barbarian

Alignment: Any nonlawful.

Ex-Barbarians: A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian.
Monk

Alignment: Any lawful. As a Monk you'll never qualify for either the Frozen Berserker feat or entry into Frostrager.

[olentu]

Look more closely.

Yeah considering that you would already be asking your DM to technically do a bit of minor houseruling you're not very likely to get armor out of the deal. Not to mention that it might clash with the whole being a monk thing.

[Manateee]

Psionic Fist or Totemist would cover for many of Monk+VoP's flexibility gaps.

[Drelua]

Sorry, I forgot about that. I don't usually play with those alignment restrictions, I completely forgot about them. It appears that I'm completely useless. :smalltongue: I'm just gonna slowly back away from this thread.

[olentu]

Sorry, I forgot about that. I don't usually play with those alignment restrictions, I completely forgot about them. It appears that I'm completely useless. :smalltongue: I'm just gonna slowly back away from this thread.

Oh come now perhaps the thread starter will be fine with being an Ex-monk.

[SaintRidley]

Look more closely.

I see that. What's wrong with seeing if the DM doesn't see it though?

[dextercorvia]

Are there any Lawful Good deities with the travel domain? Or, is your DM willing to let you choose an ideal, like the 'Way of Righteousness'? If so,

Divine Crusader1/SacredFist8 will get you flight, and mostly progress your monk stuff.

[Curmudgeon]

I see that. What's wrong with seeing if the DM doesn't see it though?
There are two likely outcomes if you pull the wool over the DM's eyes initially, but they catch on later:

Rocks magically rain on the character's head.
Books magically rain upside the player's head.

[Telonius]

Have you considered Horizon Walker? You could probably fit in Shifting if you get Endurance right away.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh wow, didn't know Vow of Poverty was that bad, though I do appreciate the advice.

Can you talk to the DM about retraining or rebuilding your character, perhaps using the PHB II rules? How he can better serve the cause of good by using tools, and giving up some of the more restrictive aspects of asceticism? And go onto some sort of mini-quest that gives him his WBL in useful, high-versatility gear?

[TurtleKing]

Grab two more levels of warshaper and check out Tatoo Monk in Complete Warrior? Not going to say how good or bad mechanically that PrC is though if can take it then take a look at it.

[Little Brother]

See if you can be allowed to switch out Monk for Unarmed Swordsage.

Otherwise, go Tash with Ardent, take Practiced Manifester and get all the CL boosting items possible. Remember, VoP doesn't make you lose all items, you just lose the benefits of it when you have them. It also disappears in an AMF.

You really could fluff it as if your character couldn't take it or something, interesting character development. Your WIS'd be high enough to capitalize off Ardent.

Beyond that? Ain't much else I can think of.

Just remember in the future, the monk in the PHB is an NPC class. The real monk is in Secrets of Sarlona and in ToB, as two variants.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just remember in the future, the monk in the PHB is an NPC class. The real monk is in Secrets of Sarlona and in ToB, as two variants.

I hate this. It's basically "my way is better". It's more powerful, but it. Is not. Better.

How do you even know the casters are GODs, Mailmen, and CoDzillas, not blasters and healbots?

[Gavinfoxx]

I think the idea is that even in a low op party, standard monk isn't that fun or interesting. Even staying in the same tier, an Expert or Swashbuckler would be a more interesting lightly armored finesse fighter. The expert would have to have significantly more optimization to do that job, for sure, but it would be more interesting and varied abilities!

[Manateee]

Pseudo-Effective VoP Experts? Now I'm intrigued.

[Gavinfoxx]

Who said anything about Vow of Poverty for anyone involved??

An Expert could have some of:
Lucid Dreaming
Iaijutsu Focus (+quickrazor proficiency)
Use Magic Device
Use Psionic Device
Autohypnosis
The Monster Knowledge skills (+knowledge devotion)
Handle Animal
Intimidate (+Imperious Command+Polearm+Never Outnumbered)

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9602.msg324498#msg324498

Take a look at that!

[Little Brother]

I hate this. It's basically "my way is better". It's more powerful, but it. Is not. Better.

How do you even know the casters are GODs, Mailmen, and CoDzillas, not blasters and healbots?It is simply better. Period. The monk does. Not. Work. The real monks do. I can think of one class worse than the monk. ONE. Even the Samurai is better. Even the WARRIOR is better. It simply does. Not. WORK.

And a mailman is a blaster. I assume the casters are at least MILDLY optimized. Mildly as in the cleric saying "Oh, hey, I can buff people. Maybe use my metal stick and mid-BAB on occasion," or the sorcerer saying "Huh, that spell spell has some use, this spell doesn't. I'll take the most useful one."

[Aharon]

@Little Brother
You exaggerate. Monks do sort of work in a Core/few splashbooks environment, if you ignore the unarmed/unarmored part. Fighter 2/Monk 18 with a +1 ki reach weapon, preferably spiked chain, is competetive at tripping/stunning in low-op environments.
It's not as MAD anymore, only needs Str and Con. Some of its defensive abilities do matter (evasion if you limit yourself to light armor, diamond soul).
It pales against casters, but what doesn't?

[shaikujin]

The only impact for a monk that becomes non-lawful is not being able to pick up more monk classes.

Exactly like a monk who has multi-classed out of it cannot pick up more monk classes. Such as what the OP has already done.

Since the OP already can't take more monk levels, there's nothing to lose by changing alignment.

Not that there's much to gain by taking more monk levels...

Okay, that's not helping...sorry.

Kensai is definitely worth considering.

Other less item-dependent classes to consider -
Totemist,
Binder (bind Paimon, use your monk's movement bonus to run around more enemies, or at least out of range),
Swordsage, then Shadow Sun Ninja


Also, see if you can ask the party Druid/Ranger permanency Greater Magic Fang on you.

[Greenish]

In a pinch, you can get flight from a feat, Animal Devotion from Complete Divine. Only for a minute, once a day (unless you have Turn Undead uses from somewhere), but it's better than nothing.

[Edit]: Might be worth lobbying with your DM to allow you to pick up Devotion feats in addition to Exalted feats from VoP.

[Dr.Epic]

So, I recently died in our campaign, and have made a new character. I currently have no idea where to go with him, and am pretty bad at research. I was wondering if you guys could help me with my monk.

Race: Changeling

Can I ask why? If you have a specific concept in mind and want a monk with a high disguise than sure. Otherwise, I'd suggest something that will benefit the monk's abilities.

[Greenish]

Can I ask why?I'm going to guess Warshaper. :smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

I'm going to guess Warshaper. :smallamused:

He could also be using it for Dragonwrought. Increased mentals to help with monk MADness, and Epic Toughness, since if you are full attacking you are getting whacked back.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm going to guess Warshaper. :smallamused:

Meh. If you're gonna go monk, then why not go for a monk PrC: Sacred Fist, Tattooed Monk, Drunken Master, etc.

[Greenish]

He could also be using it for Dragonwrought. Increased mentals to help with monk MADness, and Epic Toughness, since if you are full attacking you are getting whacked back.I don't see why you wouldn't start as a kobold if that's what you wanted to do.


Meh. If you're gonna go monk, then why not go for a monk PrC: Sacred Fist, Tattooed Monk, Drunken Master, etc.That, you'll have to ask him. How would I know?

[dextercorvia]

I don't see why you wouldn't start as a kobold if that's what you wanted to do.

Absolutely hate getting extra attacks, or being harder to spot? /sarcasm

Honestly, I mentioned it as a side benefit of using Chameleon to go Warshaper, that you still had that option. The only problematic things with being Kobold is small size (if you are relying on trip or grapple) and the penalties to Strength and Con.

[Dr.Epic]

That, you'll have to ask him. How would I know?

I'm just putting that out there as a general thought. If they're going Warshaper, there are plenty of great builds out there and don't require monk.