Cleric advice?

[ahenobarbi]

Apparently looks like my barbarian will not make it to become bera warrior :(
Now I decided to make a full-caster but one of party members said "but we need a meele fighter!" and I don't like druids so I'm making a cleric.

Setting is Forgotten Realms I can use core, setting books and complete * books. No Dragon Magazine. Also I'd rather keep build simple (like no dips, just a few levles of cleric then 2 PrCs).

I want to be a cleric of Mystra. I want to choose Magic and Rune domains. And I don't wan't to be lawfull so no Churc Inquisitor for me.

Classes: Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/?? 5
Race: Aasimar (lesser)
Feats:
1: Extend Spell
3: Initiate of Mystra
6: Persist Spell
9: Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell)
12, 15, 16: Extra turning? More metamagic?

To qualify for Dweomerkeeper I need:
- Meta magic feat (Extend Spell)
- Item Creatin feat (I get Scribe Scroll from Rune domain)
- Ability to cast divine (cleric) and arcane (I get any spell from Initiate of mystra) spells
- 8 ranks in Knowledge(arcana) and Spellcraft (I have int 10 so no other skills for me but I can do it).

Can I qualify for Dewomerkeeper as I think? What PrC for last 5 levels would you suggest (maybe I'll get there... and if I do I might have to prepare for it)? What feats are worth taking for primary-caster cleric?

Note: I read http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

P.S. This is my first divine caster ever so I'm not really certain if I'm making this right... Usually when I first make a character of new type it really sucks so I'd really appreciate advice.

[HunterOfJello]

Initiate of Mystra adds spells to your Cleric spell list. They would therefore all be cast as Divine spells. You still don't have the ability to cast Arcane spells as Arcane Spells.

[sonofzeal]

Southern Magician (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Southern_Magician) is what you need.

[ahenobarbi]

Initiate of mystra gives me acces to any spell (here (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Anyspell)).

Anyspell allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 2nd level. (...)
Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot.(...)

When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level except ...

As I understand it I get a spell "Anyspell". I cast "Anyspell" and it allows me to prepare and cast an arcane spell (2nd level or lower). So with this I cats 2 spells: divine Anyspell spell and (later) arcane spell.

[ahenobarbi]

Southern Magician (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Southern_Magician) is what you need.

If my reasoning is flawed (not accepted by DM) then yes... but I need to be human and my extra feat get's eaten by this. Thanks for backup option :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, no, no! You meet the arcane spellcasting prerequisite with the feat Magical Training in PGtF.

Anyspell is a bit iffy, the PHB states that clerics cast divine spells, thus any spell you cast by virtue of the cleric class is a divine spell, though Anyspell itself states you cast the spell as a wizard, which would imply that it's cast as an arcane spell. Check with your DM first, hopefully it counts as divine because then you can use DMM: Persistent on whatever you cast via Anyspell, such as Shield, Wraithstrike, and Draconic Polymorph with Greater Anyspell. You can get a 3rd level Pearl of Power to recover Anyspell and cast it again to have both Shield and Wraithstrike persisted each day. You can cast Magic Vestment on the effect of your Shield spell to grant an Enhancement bonus to its Shield bonus, just like casting it on a mundane shield. Be sure to get a Lesser Rod of Extend.

Move Initiate of Mystra to a later level, to get DMM: Persist sooner. You won't even need Initiate of Mystra until you may be running into AMFs, so there's no reason to have it so early. Definitely go Human for the bonus feat, considering so few races qualify for Magical Training anyway. Be Halruaan, they're awesome.

Those other five levels can be Contemplative (extra domain), Divine Disciple (extra domain), Divine Oracle (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion; get the prerequisite feat via the Frog God's Fane in CS), Paragnostic Apostle (tons of reasons), etc. You'd be best off going with just one level of Contemplative and four levels of any of those other ones, but you said no dips so that probably won't work out for you. Definitely take your other prestige class as early as possible to get your Dweomerkeeper levels later on for higher level Mantle of Spells choices.

[ahenobarbi]

I wanted Initiate of Mystra to get Anyspell on my cleric list...

By the way I realized that if spells casted with Anyspell were arcane it would be to awesome....

Cleric 5/Wizard(or Sorcerer) 1/ Mystic theurge 10/ Whatever 4 :smallbiggrin:

I fulfil Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells with Anyspell, take Wiz or Sorc to have some class to which I would get increase, profit.

Once I say this I think I'll be casting divine spells with Anyspell :smallamused:

So no arcane failure and I can apply DMM...

What DMM (other than persist) are worth taking? I don't think extend is good - soon spells will last all fight (round/level or minute/level) or whole day (hour/level) anyway.

[ahenobarbi]

I talked to DM and he decided that I cast divine spell Anyspell and gain Arcane spell from it. And I can use it to qualify for PrCs :smallbiggrin:

Now I wonder if I should go

Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/?? 5

or

Cleric 5/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 10/ ?? 4

(I think Sorcerer is better for Mystic Theurge, because it relies on Charisma which I use for Divine Meta Magic...). What do you think? Which way would give this character more power?

[Gavinfoxx]

You should most definitely NOT go the mystic theurge option, between those two...

[ahenobarbi]

Could you explain me why? I loose 1 level of cleric casting progression and gain 11 levels of sorcerer which looks like ok deal to me... Is Dweomerkeeper that much better?

Also "between those two" do you have something better in mind?

[Gavinfoxx]

Could you explain me why? I loose 1 level of cleric casting progression and gain 11 levels of sorcerer which looks like ok deal to me... Is Dweomerkeeper that much better?

Also "between those two" do you have something better in mind?

Because you can already get any arcane spell you might want with the aspects of the Spell/Magic/Rune domains letting you activate scrolls, and Anyspell to cast anything up to fifth level. And also, because the class features of Dwoemerkeeper are just so much better than gaining a bit of access to a few levels of sorcerer casting. Also, thou shalt not lose caster levels.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a

[ahenobarbi]

Because you can already get any arcane spell you might want with the aspects of the Spell/Magic/Rune domains letting you activate scrolls, and Anyspell to cast anything up to fifth level. And also, because the class features of Dwoemerkeeper are just so much better than gaining a bit of access to a few levels of sorcerer casting.

Why are Dwoemerkeeper features better? Sorcerer spontaneous casting looks to as better than Mantle of Spells (Oh wait with mantle of spells I can get spontaneus spells of higher levels).

Supernatural spell is nice... but I can fight spell resistance with assay spell resistance. Not provoking attack of opportunity is nice... but casting defensively is not that hard. No components might be nice (hmm Greater Anyspell to get free stoneskin :smallamused: ).

Arcane sight isn't a big deal... having permanency for it is 1500XP (ah, but I can't get it by 11 CL...).

Cloak of mysteries :smallredface:

Alright, maybe Dweomerkeeper is better after all.


Also, thou shalt not lose caster levels.

Lest it is for a good reason. And I think Mystic Theurge is better than straight cleric... but Dweomerkeeper looks even better.

Thanks

Edit: I wonder should I go for human for bonus feat and extra skills or lesser Aasimar for +2 Wis and +2 Cha. With human I could get Divine Meta Magic earlier, but I would need more bonus charisma to use it (I need 7 turning attempts to power it so charisma 18... my two highest stats are 16 and 14 :smallconfused: ).

[Gullintanni]

Keep in mind that a Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural spell doesn't have ANY components. If you take Supernatural Permanency, it doesn't have an xp cost. Better to take a Supernatural Miracle mind you.

This is one of the primary reasons Dweomerkeeper is considered so broken.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Supernatural spell = a great way to not have to worry about material components, xp components, long casting time, etc. etc. etc.

[Medic!]

Contemplative (Complete Divine p. 30) is a solid PrC but with your lower skill points you'd almost have to go human to qualify. If you could fenagle your DM into letting you pick the Charm Domain from PGtF as your bonus domain based on alignment instead of deity you could get 2 more turn attempts for 1 minute, long enough to DMM Persist some higher lvl spells. As far as other uses for DMM, the only one I can think of off the top of my head (and I haven't thought this through at all, so it's probly wrong/bad/whatever) would be a twin (or twin then repeat) miracle? IDK

[I unleash a flurry of edits]

Of course with Contemplative stopping at lvl 5 you'd be one shy of a second bonus domain *shrug*

If you could REALLY fenagle your DM (into letting it advance your divine spellcasting class) you could sneak into Incantrix pretty easily too. Or take it and blow not only the feat on iron will but another feat on Practiced Spellcaster to make up the CL and use a bloodline for a filler level if allowed. (Fey bloodline from UA can get you an extra Cha point as well as iron will at 8th lvl, and soak up that missing 5th CL, netting you some neat tricks and bonus MM feats)

In fact, thinking about it more, 4 lvls of incantrix and the minor fey bloodline could be pretty awesome on a cleric chasis. Out of turn attempts to persist or extend a buff? Spellcraft check go! Got nothing suitable to blasty-blast with with, help the arcane caster blast harder. You could even, realistically, drop DMM all together (or retrain it) and optimize your spellcraft check to completely get around the need for more turn attempts. I'm a HUGE fan of abusing item familiars to cheese up skill checks.

[ahenobarbi]

Contemplative (Complete Divine p. 30) is a solid PrC but with your lower skill points you'd almost have to go human to qualify.


I need just 133 ranks in knowledge (Religion) which is doable... PrC looks interesting enough to waste some ranks. And I think I'll age one category after a few levels (on first levels I will need good physical stats since I'll handle melee but later it shouldn't hurt).



If you could fenagle your DM into letting you pick the Charm Domain from PGtF as your bonus domain based on alignment instead of deity you could get 2 more turn attempts for 1 minute, long enough to DMM Persist some higher lvl spells.

Probably I can't do it but trying won't hurt.


As far as other uses for DMM, the only one I can think of off the top of my head (and I haven't thought this through at all, so it's probly wrong/bad/whatever) would be a twin (or twin then repeat) miracle?


Twin spell from Complete Arcane. Description says that all decision I make apply to both spells and if effects normally wouldn't stack they don't... that's a bit limiting but still could be very good.



Of course with Contemplative stopping at lvl 5 you'd be one shy of a second bonus domain *shrug*


Oh noes, still extra domain could is good.



If you could REALLY fenagle your DM (into letting it advance your divine spellcasting class)

No that will not work with that DM :smallfrown:


Keep in mind that a Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural spell doesn't have ANY components. If you take Supernatural Permanency, it doesn't have an xp cost. Better to take a Supernatural Miracle mind you.

This is one of the primary reasons Dweomerkeeper is considered so broken.

That certainly will be nice... but I will not be able to abuse it (unless I take heretic of faith feat :smallamused: ) because Mystra's dogma says

...Strive to use magic less as your powers develop (...). Magic is Art, the Gift of the Lady, and those who wield it are privileged in the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly, while being mindfull of this. Use the Art deftly and efficiently, not carelessly and recklessly...


and if I abuse I might get hit with "lost favor of yer god" stick.

[ahenobarbi]

Tommorow characters gets into play. Also I talked to DM a bit more so: no divine metamagic, no Dweomerkeeper's for this build. Also no Libris Mortis (I asked about fell spell and it's one more book banned for past game-breaking).

So I'll go human.

Str: 13
Dex: 11
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 14

5 Cleric (Mystra)/1 Sorcerer/ 10 Mystic Theurge
Domains: Spell and Magic
Feats:
1: Divine Spell Power, Improved Turning
3: Heighten Spell
6: Still Spell
9: Initiate of Mystra
12: ?
15: ?
18: ?

Do you have any suggestions for this build?

[Medic!]

The Practiced Spellcaster feat would fit in there pretty nicely to get back those 4 lost sorc caster lvls

[ahenobarbi]

I'll consider Practiced Spellcaster, but first I'll make my spell list (and see how much I'll benefit from higher CL). I think I'll use sorcerer mostly to cast stuff like Assay Spell Resistance, Nerveskitter and True Strike (to enhance cleric casting).

[Major_Muffin]

I say go for evil or neutral cleric who just raises and controls undead. Try and go for as high turning and as many turn undeads as possible.

[ahenobarbi]

I started playing with NG cleric of Mystra so no undead controlling for me. Besides I don't really like working through controlling undead (and it kind of spoils fun if most actions are attacks of my mindless minions).