I ruined a campaign

[Surzt and Gurzt]

I feel horrible. We were having so much fun.

Me and my friends have been swapping between 2 campaigns, today we played the short-going Epic campaign. We were a group of interplanar kingdom-killers for higher. We were hired to destroy a large kingdom on our home plane. I played a Dry Lich cleric of Vecna with all the stops pulled out. Innumerable Astral Projections guaranteeing me immortality, persistent divine metamagic, a max HD nightmare mount and a small army of Fire Giant Wights. Several party members had just died and were beyond Resurrection even by Miracle, so 3 players rolled up new characters. We had in total: Me, a fighter/cavalier, a LG rouge [why he made LG in this campaign I have no idea](new),an invisible dervish a centaur Psionic Fist a (new) and a centaur Psychic Warrior (new) Then it happened.

We were flying through the sky, when a rift opened near us. Out comes a Phane, an Abomination of Time that is near god-strength. Were level 21 with LA +4 templates, I have +5 from dry lich. The Dervish and the rouge are frozen in time on turn one. Our Psiwarrior is cloned and begins butchering the fighter. Our Psychic warrior and the fighter flee for their lives. Our psionic fist slays the clone in about 1 lucky round. I arrive, lagging behind with my Giant Army. The Phanes (now two of them because they can) Time Stop and throw 4+ nerf spells at us. We pass our saves, but my nightmare is stunned. I fly off of him and throw weird at the phanes. Turns out their immune to it. The psiwarrior flees. That leaves me, 38 giants who are 900 ft below us, and a falling nightmare. The phanes shoot time-lasers at me and I take 100+ damage. In short, through 4 ninth level spells, two gated Balors and an impromptu hail of boulders from the giants, nothing even taps the Phanes. I flee. :smallfurious:

Then the bad things happen. I confront the Psiwarriors for abandoning us. Im cool with the fighter, he and me are Vecna's champions, so I understand him. But the pair of Gargantuan, flying centaurs that deal silly high damage, I dont see why they fled. The psychic fist just ignores me [and his player goes to the bathroom], but I have to argue with the Psychic warrior over what happens when you die, how the planes work, what planes do, which plane is which, and even though I have encyclopedic knowledge of the planes(which he knows), he insists I am wrong on every point.

It progresses for several minutes, until it has become me asking him to convert to evil, else wise I will need to humble him in Vecna's eye. He refuses, and the circular logic he has been using has worn my patience thin (in short, you are wrong because you cannot be right because I am right), so I fly up and cast Disjunction on him. He loses his buffs, 1/2 his items and his patience. He stops playing, the fighter insists I am ruining how the game is meant to be played and it is left with just me and the fist. And we have no Idea what to do.

How out of bounds was I/he/us, or did anything really go wrong?

[TheMeMan]

I feel horrible. We were having so much fun.

Me and my friends have been swapping between 2 campaigns, and since it was the DMs birthday and he wanted to DM, we played his Epic campaign. I played a Dry Lich cleric of Vecna with all the stops pulled out. Innumerable Astral Projections guaranteeing me immortality, persistent divine metamagic, a max HD nightmare mount and a small army of Fire Giant Wights. Then it happened.

We were flying through the sky, when a rift opened near us. Out comes a Phane, an Abomination of Time that is neigh on Divine levels. Were level 21 with LA +4 templates, I have +5 from dry lich. Our group's permanently-invisible rouge and his Dervish brother are frozen in time on turn one. Our Psiwarrior is cloned and begins butchering the big dumb fighter in our party. Our Psychic warrior and the fighter flee for their lives. Our psionic fist slays the clone in about 1 lucky round. I arrive, lagging behind with my Giant Army. The Phanes (now two of them because they can) Time Stop and throw 4+ nerf spells at us. We pass our saves, but my nightmare is stunned. I fly off of him and throw weird at the phanes. Turns out their immune to it. The psiwarrior flees. That leaves me, 38 giants who are 900 ft below us, and falling nightmare. The phanes shoot time-lasers at me and I take 100+ damage.In short, through 4 ninth level spells, two gated Balors and an impromptu hail of boulders from the giants, nothing even taps the Phanes. I flee. :smallfurious:




Then the bad things happen. I confront the Psiwarriors for abandoning us. Im cool with the fighter, he and me are Vecna's champions, so I understand him. But the pair of Gargantuan, flying centaurs that deal silly high damage, I dont see why they fled. The psychic fist just ignores me [and his player goes to the bathroom], but I have to argue with the Psychic warrior over what happens when you die, how the planes work, what planes do, which plane is which, and even though I have encyclopedic knowledge of the planes(which he knows), he insists I am wrong on every point.

It progresses for several minutes, until it has become me asking him to convert to evil, else wise I will need to humble him in Vecna's eye. He refuses, and the circular logic he has been using has worn my patience thin (in short, you are wrong because you cannot be right because I am right), so I fly up and cast Disjunction on him. He loses his buffs, 1/2 his items and his patience. He stops playing, the fighter insists I am ruining how the game is meant to be played and it is left with just me and the fist. And we have no Idea what to do.

How out of bounds was I/he/us, or did anything really go wrong?

So you had an in-character argument with another player.

You order him to alter his character concept, as a player(not the DM), and will not take no for an answer.

Then you Disjunction him, a spell might I add that is loathed by player even when used against enemies, making him lose everything he's worked to obtain in the game, because you decided that the in-game argument means he can't have nice stuff anymore.

What do you think my answer is on this one?

[Kumori]

Yeah, I'd say you crossed a line. It seems to me the in game situation escalated to out of game, and only bad stuff can follow that. I would hope that your friend and yourself both understand this, and agree to simply forget the whole event. Wait until the emotion from the session fade before talking about it, if you can.

[Surzt and Gurzt]

Originally Posted by TheMeMan
So you had an in-character argument with another player.

You order him to alter his character concept, as a player(not the DM), and will not take no for an answer.


I understand Disjunciton is too far, but the fact remains that the player, and I acknowledge I didnt disclose all the information on his behavior, was not only insulting and threatening my character after leaving him to face crazy powerful god-spawn. And on top of all of that he [I should have mentioned this] openly retconed his character during conversation just to argue. It began with 'I worship no god' to 'I worship the god of the great mind', even after I communed with Vecna who revealed no such god ever existed or had any history of worship in the campaign setting. Couldn't it be argued the player was being provocative?

[Killer Angel]

Couldn't it be argued the player was being provocative?

It could, but when there is an escalation, the blame falls on both. No one showed the good sense to stop it before the point of no return.

Now, the thing must be fixed OoG, finding between you and the group some solution and apply it to the game. Involve the DM in this.

[TheMeMan]

I understand Disjunciton is too far, but the fact remains that the player, and I acknowledge I didnt disclose all the information on his behavior, was not only insulting and threatening my character after leaving him to face crazy powerful god-spawn. And on top of all of that he [I should have mentioned this] openly retconed his character during conversation just to argue. It began with 'I worship no god' to 'I worship the god of the great mind', even after I communed with Vecna who revealed no such god ever existed or had any history of worship in the campaign setting. Couldn't it be argued the player was being provocative?

Should have left it to the DM on the matter retconning.

Further, it seems rather silly that you would do all that over him making empty threats and insults. The retconning is not even an issue-what does it matter which god he may or may not worship, regardless of the "validity" of the God? Unless you are some sort of crusader type, really.

That all said, he was out of line, you went way overboard and demolished the line.

[W3bDragon]

Besides, didn't everyone flee in the end? Wasn't the encounter too tough? So why was your character mad at only the psiwar for retreating? Everyone retreated, and an evil character like yours is most likely to understand the instinct of self preservation here.

The bottom line is, no matter what happened, you chose for your character to react with a nasty attack. Your character didn't have to go that route. There are literally dozens of ways your character could have reacted. He could have been disappointed by the psywar and made sure to keep an eye on him in the future. Maybe he could have reveled in his superiority while everyone else fled, facing the two phanes alone and coming out alive. He could have made it a group point that the group shouldn't retreat without warning each other about it first. The options are endless. You chose the option that is the most detrimental to the campaign. So yeah, I think you went overboard with that.

I suggest that you ask the DM to retconn the whole after-combat incident and start over.

[Killer Angel]

Besides, didn't everyone flee in the end? Wasn't the encounter too tough? So why was your character mad at only the psiwar for retreating? Everyone retreated, and an evil character like yours is most likely to understand the instinct of self preservation here.


That at least I can see it.
The evil character can easily flee, leaving others fight, without caring.
If the evil character fights and its companions flee... he will have vengeance (maybe it will plan some subtle thing, but still).

[TheMeMan]

That at least I can see it.
The evil character can easily flee, leaving others fight, without caring.
If the evil character fights and its companions flee... he will have vengeance (maybe it will plan some subtle thing, but still).

Not necessarily. Depends on how evil, and the relationship. Evil does not always means vengeful or sadistic. I highly doubt an evil person, for instance, would enact vengeance on his family or close friends if the situation were coming to an every man for himself end. He may be angry, annoyed, or absolutely pissed, but he will not enact vengeance. He may be far more careful about trusting that person in the future.

[Killer Angel]

Not necessarily. Depends on how evil, and the relationship.

In general, yes. In this specific case, the 2 psiwarriors were the first time adventuring with the lich.
It was their "baptism of fire" from the lich's PoV... and the conclusion is that they're not worthy to stand by lich's side.

edit: I could say that this kind of reaction is one of many justifiable reactions from the lich. Only, it was one of the worst to be taken by the player; another one, far less extreme, would have been equally justifiable.

[ahenobarbi]

Not necessarily. Depends on how evil, and the relationship. Evil does not always means vengeful or sadistic. I highly doubt an evil person, for instance, would enact vengeance on his family or close friends if the situation were coming to an every man for himself end. He may be angry, annoyed, or absolutely pissed, but he will not enact vengeance. He may be far more careful about trusting that person in the future.

Now you're talking about neutral :P

Evil means character finds it fun to inflict harm on others. So it hurts others unless it finds them useful. So character totally might act like that.

The problem might be that conflict between characters causes problem between players. It is DM role to solve that so you should talk to him/her what should you do to solve this. Also I think DM should talk to everybody what playing evil characters means (like: "you should expect others to back stab you just for fun of it"). Undoing disjunction may help (I'd recommend saying that it's the only time we do this - because now you're all warned that you should expect such behavior from teammates).

[Krazzman]

So I don't really know this Vecna, and certainly not your normal pace of play but there you have an example of twisted emotions.

If I read your text right, then the Fighter and you are Champions of this God.

After trying to reason with the Psi-guy he insulted you IC and started to annoy a friggin Champion of a God? If I were you I would have banished him first, because he is not worthy to be with your enlighted presence but even then I would be vengeful and would have shown him a bit of my wrath.

I think if your Lich got severly insulted he should be justified to do this.

[TheMeMan]

So I don't really know this Vecna, and certainly not your normal pace of play but there you have an example of twisted emotions.

If I read your text right, then the Fighter and you are Champions of this God.

After trying to reason with the Psi-guy he insulted you IC and started to annoy a friggin Champion of a God? If I were you I would have banished him first, because he is not worthy to be with your enlighted presence but even then I would be vengeful and would have shown him a bit of my wrath.

I think if your Lich got severly insulted he should be justified to do this.

One of the few areas where I believe Metagaming is justified is in player conflict. Just because the character would act like such does not mean that it's a good idea, from a player standpoint, to do so. Really, kinda a **** move to say the least.

[TheMeMan]

Now you're talking about neutral :P

Evil means character finds it fun to inflict harm on others. So it hurts others unless it finds them useful. So character totally might act like that.

The problem might be that conflict between characters causes problem between players. It is DM role to solve that so you should talk to him/her what should you do to solve this. Also I think DM should talk to everybody what playing evil characters means (like: "you should expect others to back stab you just for fun of it"). Undoing disjunction may help (I'd recommend saying that it's the only time we do this - because now you're all warned that you should expect such behavior from teammates).

Without getting into to much of an off-topic debate, it wouldn't be necessarily Neutral. Also, not all evil characters are the same, and some may find inflicting pain and suffering as reprehensible(Though necessary). Evil character have friends and family- people that they may be completely devoted to and even willing to make great sacrifices for. It's the other people, however, that they don't care about(And will willfully enact undying vengeance upon if they so choose). Neutral would be more in line with either wishing harm(though not necessarily acting on it), leaving the person to die if you had the ability to help, or taking the opportunity to enact revenge if given(Though not necessarily seeking it out).

After re-reading, it does seem that these were basically acquaintances, so the character may have been of that mindset. Doesn't mean, from a player's standpoint, that you should.

As for the DM thing, that is the way to go. However, I would heavily caution against similar actions in the future. I've been in games where ALL the player's were looking to screw the others. It was fun for about five minutes, until the proverbial arms-race began as players were building specific builds to kill other players rather than continue the campaign. It ended poorly, the group ended up fracturing apart, and only a few of us still play with each other. It's just a bad environment.

[Slipperychicken]

it has become me asking him to convert to evil

A guy you just met didn't immediately renounce his personality and start worshipping your Evil god, so you broke his stuff. That's really messed up. Also, give the new guy a break, you're supposed to be having fun.

[Bloodgruve]

I guess at the end of the day its just a game. Also, its not a game without other players. Its good to play in character but the preservation of the game and even friendship should trump your characters perceived path. If I were in your shoes I'd rescind your characters last actions and find a new way to deal with the desertion. It could be more interesting down the road.

Keep in mind that it can be very hard to find even semi-competent players that fit your schedule. Some are blessed with a good community, I have struggled finding others at times.

GL
Blood~

[ahenobarbi]

Also, not all evil characters are the same, and some may find inflicting pain and suffering as reprehensible(Though necessary). Evil character have friends and family- people that they may be completely devoted to and even willing to make great sacrifices for. It's the other people, however, that they don't care about(And will willfully enact undying vengeance upon if they so choose).

The character was a lich... I wouldn't expect it to have friends or family.


A guy you just met didn't immediately renounce his personality and start worshipping your Evil god, so you broke his stuff. That's really messed up. Also, give the new guy a break, you're supposed to be having fun.


I've been in games where ALL the player's were looking to screw the others. It was fun for about five minutes, until the proverbial arms-race began as players were building specific builds to kill other players rather than continue the campaign. It ended poorly, the group ended up fracturing apart, and only a few of us still play with each other. It's just a bad environment.

That's one of problems with evil characters - they (almost?) always start fighting each other (and rather sooner than later).

[Tyndmyr]

This does not seem very much like Vecna's style. Just saying.

[Cruiser1]

One of the few areas where I believe Metagaming is justified is in player conflict. Just because the character would act like such does not mean that it's a good idea, from a player standpoint, to do so. Really, kinda a **** move to say the least.This deserves repeating. The classic page on this site describing how you as the player should make your character behave in ways that promote harmony with other players/characters is: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html. In summary, as Rich says, "Decide to React Differently".

[Ingus]

My two coppers.

In D&D and in game in general, there is a not spoken assumption that your fellow player will not, in any circumstance, cripple your game experience.
Because you do the same for him.
If one breaks the rule, first comes a feel of betrayal, then others may find justified to do the same (and this will rapidly degenerate in total mess).

Now, what is acceptable or not is generally a matter of discussion, but in average severely nerfing a PC is a "don't".
In my games, justified TPK (less one, obviously) by a PC are tolerated, chaotic stupids aren't. But we arrived at that by means of discussions, trial and fail and several retcons.

My recipe is asking before. If it is not possibile, ask right before. Where the disjunction thing was justifiable by the lich's point of view, it seems it wasn't by your fellow player's point of view, so it was a "don't".
As a suggestion for the future, try to step out of character next time, asking the other player to do the same and politely agree on what level on "in party conflict" is acceptable. Then stick to it (as a tip of wisdom, stick to it minus two steps :smallwink:)

Now, let time pass by and then talk with both the other guy and the rest of the party. Apologize first (my suggestion) and then ask to go one step before you disjointed his objects.
Then use sarcasm to disjoint his PCs ego. This is roleplaying, by the way

[ahenobarbi]

This deserves repeating. The classic page on this site describing how you as the player should make your character behave in ways that promote harmony with other players/characters is: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html. In summary, as Rich says, "Decide to React Differently".

I think making character that will not act in ways that will spoil game experience is better. And talking what is acceptable. Because backstabbing/evil/selfish dude who treats a few creatures fair just because they are PCs is strange at best (and potentially spoiling game).

[Slipperychicken]

That's one of problems with evil characters - they (almost?) always start fighting each other (and rather sooner than later).

Not if you play smart evil :smallamused:

[ahenobarbi]

Not if you play smart evil :smallamused:

I've never seen that. What I've seen was evil characters fighting in smart ways. For example an evil wizard killed evil druid (because druid annoyed wizard too much) and no other character ever learned why the druid disappeared. It caused problem between players anyway.

[chadmeister]

I understand Disjunciton is too far, but the fact remains that the player, and I acknowledge I didnt disclose all the information on his behavior, was not only insulting and threatening my character after leaving him to face crazy powerful god-spawn.

When characters start running, if you don't follow, you're being foolish. The player decided you were outmatched, once he left you definitely were and you should have followed.

So you started the argument by blaming him for your own mistake.

Then, it takes two to argue so you're both partly to blame.

[Surzt and Gurzt]

This does not seem very much like Vecna's style. Just saying.

I don't know, getting one of his most powerful servants to do something self-destructive sounds right up Vecna's alley.

[Callista]

Yeah, you need to apologize for pulling that crap. But it's not the end of the world. Maybe you guys can figure out a way to pull the campagin back together. If Vecna's involved, maybe one of the Good gods is, too?

[Tyndmyr]

I think making character that will not act in ways that will spoil game experience is better. And talking what is acceptable. Because backstabbing/evil/selfish dude who treats a few creatures fair just because they are PCs is strange at best (and potentially spoiling game).

Well yeah, you'll want to come up with better reasoning than that. A reason like "They're my friends, and we all protect each other. We need to be able to trust each other for that to work out" is a perfectly logical reason.

Evil can be done well, I've seen it...but backstab/blackmail the party is generally not evil done well.


I don't know, getting one of his most powerful servants to do something self-destructive sounds right up Vecna's alley.

Only for a greater end, though. In this case, I don't see it.

[ahenobarbi]

Well yeah, you'll want to come up with better reasoning than that. A reason like "They're my friends useful, and we all protect each other I can use them to protect me. We need to be able to trust each other I have to be careful for that to work out" is a perfectly logical reason.

Fixed that for you. I don't think evil and trust go well together. Also "I have to work with them or I'm screwed" is a good valid reason.


It depends on how you interpret alignment chart. Most "evil" PCs I saw were "kill 'em all then burn it all then rape 'em all then burn everything once more then loot whatever didn't burn" evil not "let's make fun of disabled humanoids" evil. So "they are my friends so I'll be nice to them" wouldn't didn't work.

[Gotterdammerung]

Sounds like typical chest thumping bravado disguised as "role play".

Well yeh, If you right up a character who is a massive egomaniac and an overall jerk, then it certainly is good role play when you judgmentally harass another player and slap them across the face with an ultimatum. Of course, the good question in this scenario...WHY the hell would you want to be that guy?! Since you had direct control over every facet of your character, you are directly responsible for it if he turns out to be a douche bag.

In short, this debacle was a result of a mistake you made at character creation. There is no way to "fix" it. All you can do is rebuild what has been destroyed. And learn from your mistakes.

[illyrus]

Going to go with the most of the rest and say you were out of line. If your action is going to remove the fun for a another player then you need to think long and hard about the repercussions of said action and try to view things from the other player's shoes. I'm sure you wouldn't have been happy to be on the receiving end of the disjunction if you were playing his character.

Also and this is just an assumption on my part, but I bet if you were playing a character that could easily be hurt by the other character you probably wouldn't have pulled that stunt as you wouldn't like to face the in-game repercussions for it.

[Coidzor]

It sounds like ya'll ain't quite in the right mindset for Epic play and might want to take a look at some of the Giant's articles on roleplaying.