Racial Trait Value?

[Necroticplague]

I've been trying to make a system buy which races functions much like advantages/disadvantages from GURPS. Essentially, What you do would be a two-step process, select what LA you want to be at, then select a few traits to match it. You can take negative traits to balance out positive ones at lower LAs. From some existing races/templates, I have extrapolated this so far:
+2 worth of stats stat=1LA
Swim Speed (half land)=1LA
Increased Reach=1LA
-2 Worth of stats=-1LA
Size Increase/decrease=+0LA
Counting as two races for all intents and purposes=1LA

I've misplaced my books, so I can't check up on my Savage Species, even though I know it has a related section.So I ask of you, playground, what is every trait worth?

[Greenish]

Giving numerical value in Level Adjustments for all the minor stuff races get gets tedious. For example, swim speed would be something like +0.1 LA.

And no matter what sort of arcane measurement method you end up using, it won't square up with existing races.

[sreservoir]

Giving numerical value in Level Adjustments for all the minor stuff races get gets tedious. For example, swim speed would be something like +0.1 LA.

And no matter what sort of arcane measurement method you end up using, it won't square up with existing races.

of course you can make it square up with existing races.

you'd have to fudge the numbers into nonsense, though.

[Greenish]

of course you can make it square up with existing races.All of them? I doubt that.

[Edit]: Unless you include conditionals. "Ability X costs 0.75 LA, except for Goblinoid races for whom it costs 1.3 LA." and so forth.

[sreservoir]

All of them? I doubt that.

it is guaranteed to be mathematically doable as long as the number of unique racial qualities exceeds the number of races for any given subset of races.

[Greenish]

it is guaranteed to be mathematically doable as long as the number of unique racial qualities exceeds the number of races for any given subset of races.You'd have to use a really screwy definition of "racial quality" for that. I meant what the OP meant, numerical value for things like swim speed, size or total ability modifier.

[Anxe]

A system I read in a third party book once had each LA getting three abilities. The abilities could be something like faster speed, a new method of movement, or a SLA. The most common "ability" is a stat boost. Each "ability" of stat boost is a +4. A +4 of natural armor is also counted as an ability. I've matched this with some of the monsters in the Monster Manuals and it seems to work for most of them.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think you need to be a bit clearer about your racial trait definitions. I mean, I personally don't think that a creature with +10 Str, +10 Dex, +10 Con, +10 Int, +10 Wis, -52 Cha should be LA -1. (Though I would play the hell out of that race)

[sreservoir]

You'd have to use a really screwy definition of "racial quality" for that. I meant what the OP meant, numerical value for things like swim speed, size or total ability modifier.

I did say you'd have to fudge the numbers into nonsense.

see also: pf advanced race guide playtest.

[Chronos]

Just as size Large or higher is worth an LA, so is size Tiny or smaller.

Another thing you need to be careful of is that more specialized races are also better. A race that got +6 Int, -6 Str would be great, but so would a race that got +6 Str, -6 Int, even though both are nominally "balanced". The thing is, nobody is ever going to take that first race and use it to make a barbarian, and nobody is ever going to take that second race and use it to make a wizard, so the drawbacks become almost irrelevant.

[Necroticplague]

Giving numerical value in Level Adjustments for all the minor stuff races get gets tedious. For example, swim speed would be something like +0.1 LA.

I got Swim Speed being 1LA because the Amphibious template was -2 Dex for a swim speed, 0LA. I'm trying to base the prices off existing races and templates, so that results with this are on par with existing races. One thing I am realizing though, their is a certain margin of "flat improvement", over which a race doesn't have any drawbacks, but is still 0LA (like humans). Should this be represented by one "free" worth of 1LA to work with (which would put a bonus feat of any type at .5LA, and a bonus skill point per level at .5LA)?

[sreservoir]

I got Swim Speed being 1LA because the Amphibious template was -2 Dex for a swim speed, 0LA. I'm trying to base the prices off existing races and templates, so that results with this are on par with existing races. One thing I am realizing though, their is a certain margin of "flat improvement", over which a race doesn't have any drawbacks, but is still 0LA (like humans). Should this be represented by one "free" worth of 1LA to work with (which would put a bonus feat of any type at .5LA, and a bonus skill point per level at .5LA)?

keep in mind: most races suck. most templates suck.

there is a reason that, for example, vanilla half-orcs don't get used all that much.

[Greenish]

I got Swim Speed being 1LA because the Amphibious template was -2 Dex for a swim speed, 0LA. I'm trying to base the prices off existing races and templates, so that results with this are on par with existing races.You're assuming the designers didn't just pull the LAs from their behind. Which they did.

Comparing, say, an orc and an aquatic orc can tell us that swim speed equal to land speed and +2 Con is +0 LA.

Comparing whisper gnome with goblin makes it obvious that +2 Con, LLV, bonuses to hide, spot and listen, a bunch of SLAs (and some other stuff) is about equal to +4 racial bonus to Ride.


TL;DR: You'll have to eyeball it. There's no grand unifying guideline to be derived from the races.

[CTrees]

You're assuming the designers didn't just pull the LAs from their behind. Which they did.

Comparing, say, an orc and an aquatic orc can tell us that swim speed equal to land speed and +2 Con is +0 LA.

Comparing whisper gnome with goblin makes it obvious that +2 Con, LLV, bonuses to hide, spot and listen, a bunch of SLAs (and some other stuff) is about equal to +4 racial bonus to Ride.


TL;DR: You'll have to eyeball it. There's no grand unifying guideline to be derived from the races.

This, exactly.

One could design a system for LA from the ground up, and probably have it be pretty good. However, the current LA system, even assuming a whole lot of rounding, is so wildly inconsistent that no meaningful rules set could fit it. See: why PF's Andvanced Race Guide (playtest) is currently ridiculous.

[georgie_leech]

What are you using as the baseline? A Level Advancement system only makes sense if you have something to compare it to. And furthermore, by this system, how would you rank a human? A bonus feat and extra skill points can make a surprising difference with some characters.

[HunterOfJello]

There's a pathfinder book somewhere that gives instructions on race creation.


As far as Level Adjustment goes, it's very difficult to set a borderline of where +0 becomes +1 becomes +2. The races don't match up when you compare Half-Elves or Half-Orcs to Dwarves or Whisper Gnomes. This becomes even more difficult when you consider templates.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I already have a thread that does exactly this. It was pretty dam