What build do you suggest for a samurai (not Samurai)?

[danzibr]

And by that I mean not the OA or CW Samurai, but just roleplaying a samurai.

Originally I wanted to go full (or almost full) BAB, katana, a mount and archery. In particular, for the mount I considered Wild Cohort, then blow some feats on archery, but in the end that'll be more feats than I want to spend when really the focus is on using a sword.

With that said, at the moment straight up DM Warblade is appealing, but I've done that before. I wouldn't be totally against a samurai with some mental powers or something, maybe like Psychic Warrior, but I want the focus to be on a dude fighting with a sword, fluffing honor and whatnot.

Also, for race I'm thinking either Hellbred (because samurai are supposed to be scary), Warforged (because a golem samurai seems cool), or human, leaning toward Warforged.

ALSO, we're starting at a mere level 3 and we probably won't much past 5, but that's not certain. Maybe we'll climb up to 20 some day. With the starting money I can get a Clockwork Steed, I noticed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Obligatory Warblade recommendation, even though it's mentioned in the OP. There's a reason it's always the first thing suggested.

For a psionic build, maybe something like (Crusader) 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 10/ Sanctified Mind 5, which gets full BAB and 19th level War Mind manifesting with Practiced Manifester. Note that you won't get any additional base powers known or powerpoints/day beyond War Mind 10, but you'll still get a higher manifester level for durations and augmenting and more bonus powerpoints for a high Wis score. Crusader can be replaced by just about any combination of full BAB classes that gets proficiency with all martial weapons and preferably more than two skill points/level. You'll need to plan your skill point spending ahead of time to be able to get War Mind at 6th, with lots of cross-class ranks in those first four levels. Starting higher than 1st level you should definitely include the 'special' prerequisite of War Mind in your character's backstory.

[Greenish]

Have you considered Crusader? They've got Ride and ranged weapon proficiencies out of the box.

[JellyPooga]

Ranger.

If the game is unlikely to hit anything higher than 5th level, let alone 10th, you don't have to worry about the "Wizards and CoDzilla dominate the game" issue. Ranger gets Full BAB, Archery or TWF Combat Style (take your pick for a samurai) and an Animal Companion. You've also got a decent amount of Skill points and two Good Saves.

Take out the "lone wilderness guy" fluff and insert "noble samurai warrior" in its place and you're not far off a decent representation.

[gkathellar]

+1 for Crusader. If you want to simulate the whole, "obligation even unto death" archetypal thing, you're not going to find a better way to do it than with Devoted Spirit.

A Diamond Mind/Iron Heart warblade is good for a more visual approach, since both have a lot of kenjutsu/iaijutsu flavor (one of Iron Heart's stances is actually described as being roughly identical to an actual kenjutsu stance, Iron Heart Surge is basically shouting "tooooh!" and no one is going to tell me that the various Diamond Mind concentration maneuvers aren't supposed to be iai strikes).

[dextercorvia]

Ardent with the Conflict and Freedom Mantles. Add Guardian at 5th. Consider a Crusader dip to get your Martial Proficiencies and some nice abilities.

[Amphetryon]

Paladin 2/Binder 13 (Andras is of particular interest)/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5.

[Ashtagon]

Ranger.

If the game is unlikely to hit anything higher than 5th level, let alone 10th, you don't have to worry about the "Wizards and CoDzilla dominate the game" issue. Ranger gets Full BAB, Archery or TWF Combat Style (take your pick for a samurai) and an Animal Companion. You've also got a decent amount of Skill points and two Good Saves.

Take out the "lone wilderness guy" fluff and insert "noble samurai warrior" in its place and you're not far off a decent representation.

I second this. You also get an animal companion to use as your mount if you want to play a cavalry samurai. If not, you should be able to acf it into something else.

You might want to talk with your GM about acf the ranger spell use into something more flavourful.

And see if he will let you change the Track feat to a +2/+2 skill bonus feat into something courtly; Diplomacy/Concentration would be appropriate. Wouldn't go for a 'real' feat though -- Track is just a plot device / railroading trick after all.

[danzibr]

Strangely, after all the talk of ToB and whatnot, I think I'll go with PsyWar! Mainly because I saw the soulbound weapon thing, and I think that's really cool.

And c'mon, a samurai with mind powers is awesome. The only problem is the not great BAB, but I think I can stomach that. Maybe there's some way to get around that, but at levels 3-5 I think it'll be okay.

[Gwendol]

Outside of ToB; Knight. Honor and code of conduct. Taunt ability. Bulwark of defence. Loyal beyond death.

Probably needs some tweaking to get the right oriental feel though. Don't quite understand the main reason for going ranger though, except it being a good class.

[JellyPooga]

Don't quite understand the main reason for going ranger though, except it being a good class.

1)Ditch the "wilderness loner" fluff. Replace with "samurai fluff".
2)Fighting style. "Traditional" samurai armament of Katana, Wakizashi and Bow. Ranger gets Combat Style in either Two Weapon Fighting (for using the blades...yes I'm aware that they weren't typically used together, but this is fantasy, remember?) or Archery (fairly self explanatory).
3)Cavalry. Samurai were "knights" in all but name and would typically learn to fight from horse-back. Ranger a)has Ride as a class skill and b)gets an Animal Companion, which could be a horse so he's not stuck with a sucky baseline horse at level 18.
4)Skill Points. 6+Int mod skill point sper level is nothing to sniff at and gives you a lot of freedom to pick and choose. Samurai were, fairly typically, educated men by the standards of their culture; lots of skill points reflects this.
5)Magic. Very minor, I know, but there's a lot of mytique surrounding the whole samurai thing. The limited spells a Ranger gets could go somewhat towards representing this.

Things that don't fit, particularly;

1)Wild Empathy. Can't think if why a samurai would have this, except to epically stare down beasts.
2)Track. Again, no real basis for this, but then there's no reason why a samurai couldn't have it, as such.

[danzibr]

Rangers (along with many other suggested classes, though not PsyWar) also get full BAB, which a samurai should totally have (or near max considering dips).

[Greenish]

Rangers (along with many other suggested classes, though not PsyWar) also get full BAB, which a samurai should totally have (or near max considering dips).Eh, BAB is a metagame thing. It does help in representing a great warrior, but so do many other things.

[danzibr]

Eh, BAB is a metagame thing. It does help in representing a great warrior, but so do many other things.
Like what? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know what crunch can be fluffed into being a great warrior. And then... throw them together to create the ultimate warrior. Well, j/k about the last part, but I am interested.

[deuxhero]

Ranger 1/Wolf Totem barbarian 2/ranger 2/Horizon Walker 6 (Desert, Underground, Plains, Hills, whatever, Shifting)

Take Combat Reflexes (1), Wild Companion/Quickdraw (human), knockdown (3).

Focus on tripping, find one the variant Yari that has a hook use Gurisame stats and go.

Ranger 2 also gets you bow fighting style, which helps

Yes you need to be non-lawful to keep Rage, but the lawful thing really only took off in relatively shortly before their end.

Is there anything Horizon Tripper can't do?

[Manateee]

Like what? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know what crunch can be fluffed into being a great warrior.
Well, abilities that make a character a great warrior, for a start. :p

Abilities like being able to move quickly, to wrestle monsters to the ground, to effectively smash enemies, etc.... the stuff that differentiates the Psychic Warrior from the Warrior.

[danzibr]

Well, abilities that make a character a great warrior, for a start. :p

Abilities like being able to move quickly, to wrestle monsters to the ground, to effectively smash enemies, etc.... the stuff that differentiates the Psychic Warrior from the Warrior.
Ahh... so like Power Attack would be an ability that helps make a warrior great. Yeah, I see. Thanks.

[Gwendol]

Still don't see the Ranger connection. Skill points are nice, but since most of them would have to go to CC skills, they don't matter that much. Skills for a samurai would typically be:
Diplomacy
Intimidate
Knowledge (Nobility)
Knowledge (History)
Perform (Poetry, Recitation, Calligraphy?)
Climb
Jump
Tumble?
Ride
Handle animal?

The ranger spellcasting is completely out of context, and while getting a weak animal companion to be used as mount may seem nice, you can just as well spend a feat to get a wild cohort instead. The weapon style of the ranger doesn't really mean that much either, since one: the TWF style isn't really correct, and two: archery is better acheived by other means (zen archery comes to mind).

The Paladin fits the bill much better than the ranger (exchange the divine devotion to a more mundane devotion to a Lord), if you want spellcasting, and go fighter/knight/ToB for a non-spellcasting samurai.

[JellyPooga]

Still don't see the Ranger connection. Skill points are nice
Spend them cross-class. You've got enough.


The ranger spellcasting is completely out of context
Depends on how "fantasy" you want your samurai to be.


and while getting a weak animal companion to be used as mount may seem nice, you can just as well spend a feat to get a wild cohort instead.
Or you could take a different feat and have the Class Feature...low level game, either would do.


The weapon style of the ranger doesn't really mean that much either, since one: the TWF style isn't really correct
Fantasy game! :smallwink:

and two: archery is better acheived by other means (zen archery comes to mind).
Take both?


The Paladin fits the bill much better than the ranger (exchange the divine devotion to a more mundane devotion to a Lord), if you want spellcasting, and go fighter/knight/ToB for a non-spellcasting samurai
I won't argue that Paladin fits too, but the supernatural aspects of Paladin don't mesh with my view of Samurai...Detect Evil? Aura of Good? Lay on Hands? Immunity to Fear could fit, but I'd rather my samurai get scared of some things. Immunity to Disease? Summoned horse?
All of these aspects make about much sense as any Spellcasting the Ranger has in relation to being a samurai. I think Ranger, Fighter or even Monk fit better than Paladin, but I wouldn't complain if someone asked if they could play a "Paladin samurai" in one of my games.

[Greenish]

Like what? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know what crunch can be fluffed into being a great warrior. And then... throw them together to create the ultimate warrior. Well, j/k about the last part, but I am interested.I meant that having +n BAB is not what defines a warrior IC, it's the ability to defeat your foes.

[Cwymbran-San]

The ranger spellcasting is completely out of context,
Not as long as you stick to the selfbuffs the class provides, look at ranger spells in the Spell Compendium, there are a lot of them


The weapon style of the ranger doesn't really mean that much either, since one: the TWF style isn't really correct,
It is, the niten-ichi-ryu was a style that used both weapons, and one of the greatest duelists of the samurai age used that technique.


I would prefer the ranger as well, gets you a lot of fitting abilities, but i would throw in a level of bard or two. Why? Because a samurai was obliged to learn at least seven Arts, only one of them being the art of war. And poetry, musical instrument and (perhaps) Perform (Kabuki acting) are more easily available from the bard class.

[Gwendol]

I won't argue that Paladin fits too, but the supernatural aspects of Paladin don't mesh with my view of Samurai...Detect Evil? Aura of Good? Lay on Hands? Immunity to Fear could fit, but I'd rather my samurai get scared of some things. Immunity to Disease? Summoned horse?
All of these aspects make about much sense as any Spellcasting the Ranger has in relation to being a samurai. I think Ranger, Fighter or even Monk fit better than Paladin, but I wouldn't complain if someone asked if they could play a "Paladin samurai" in one of my games.

As I said, just as you would argue that the ranger may get re-fluffed to a japanese feudal knight, so can the paladin.
Yes, a two-level dip in monk will take care of a lot of the samurai fluff, and can be tacked on to almost any other martial class to get the desired effect.

[Gwendol]

Not as long as you stick to the selfbuffs the class provides, look at ranger spells in the Spell Compendium, there are a lot of them


It is, the niten-ichi-ryu was a style that used both weapons, and one of the greatest duelists of the samurai age used that technique.


I would prefer the ranger as well, gets you a lot of fitting abilities, but i would throw in a level of bard or two. Why? Because a samurai was obliged to learn at least seven Arts, only one of them being the art of war. And poetry, musical instrument and (perhaps) Perform (Kabuki acting) are more easily available from the bard class.

And Paladins don't get self-buffs?

Even though TWF was an existing style, it was not the prevalent one. The samurai archetype (if you will) isn't a dual sword wielding lightly armored outdoorsman, with animal friendly interests. It's a feudal knight and warlord, operating in a strict hierarchy and under a code of honor and conduct. Bringing in the bard will cause more issues than it will solve, and I maintain that for a non-spellcasting samurai; outside of ToB, you are better off taking levels in knight, monk, and/or fighter and mix/match to taste.

[Ashtagon]

and while getting a weak animal companion to be used as mount may seem nice, you can just as well spend a feat to get a wild cohort instead.

So the feat you are spending on Wild Cohort is in addition to the feat you will be spending on Leadership that allows you the option of having a cohort in the first place? At some point you have to ask where all the feats are coming from.

Paladin also works, although the pokemon-style mount badly needs re-crunching. And I'd probably want to change the focus from being "lawful good" to being "lawful". Since changing the mount to an always-there animal is a strict nerf, and changing detect evil et alii to detect chaos et alii is arguably also weaker, I see no problem with a little re-crunching for paladin.

[gkathellar]

It is, the niten-ichi-ryu was a style that used both weapons, and one of the greatest duelists of the samurai age used that technique.

One of the great duelists of the Edo period was known to practice that technique in civilian combat (but then Musashi suggested you become an expert in just about every weapon and weapon skill, so you could apply them as the situation made necessary). Many others did not, including his greatest rival.

Either way, the most widespread approach by far in kenjutsu is holding the sword with two hands, and for good reason.


I would prefer the ranger as well, gets you a lot of fitting abilities, but i would throw in a level of bard or two. Why? Because a samurai was obliged to learn at least seven Arts, only one of them being the art of war. And poetry, musical instrument and (perhaps) Perform (Kabuki acting) are more easily available from the bard class.

I'd say this is far better done by fluff, or by dip in rogue, OA Samurai, or aristocrat (which likely would have been the class of most Edo-period samurai). Bard comes with the connotation of being a master performer and magically gifted.

[Cwymbran-San]

And Paladins don't get self-buffs?

Even though TWF was an existing style, it was not the prevalent one. The samurai archetype (if you will) isn't a dual sword wielding lightly armored outdoorsman, with animal friendly interests. It's a feudal knight and warlord, operating in a strict hierarchy and under a code of honor and conduct. Bringing in the bard will cause more issues than it will solve, and I maintain that for a non-spellcasting samurai; outside of ToB, you are better off taking levels in knight, monk, and/or fighter and mix/match to taste.

Of course Pallys can buff themselves (and have dire need to do so), i just can not see the class features attached to the "holy" aspect fit to well on the samurai.
You are right, TWF was not the first-and-foremost style (just because it is enormously hard to master), but Musashi was one of the few samurai never to be defeated in a duel (and he invented that style).
And strictly speaking, the samurai was not a melee combatant, but a mounted archer in the first place. Their dominance in melee combat came later in the period, as the battlefields changed and the importance of horses diminished.
I agree about the bard part, just thought about 1-2 levels, just for fluff and possibly some mind-affecting enchantments (staring down people, animals and little children is a favourite passtime of a samurai of one of my L5R players).

[Gwendol]

I agree about the bard part, just thought about 1-2 levels, just for fluff and possibly some mind-affecting enchantments (staring down people, animals and little children is a favourite passtime of a samurai of one of my L5R players).

Hence; knight. Or dip OA samurai, as gkathellar suggests.

About Wild Cohort: it does not require leadership; it is an alternative to leadership. Taking levels of fighter (or OA samurai) will give the opportunity to take the feats necessary to build whichever type of samurai you want to play, without the "distracting" fluff associated with ranger.

If you want a mounted samurai I would still recommend knight: you get the mounted combat feats, and can focus on archery or cavalry charges as you see fit, especially if combined with fighter / samurai (OA).

[JellyPooga]

Hence; knight.

Knight might well be a better fit than Ranger...I'll admit that I can't really say because I'm not astonishingly familiar with it (not a fan of PHBII).

A point to bear in mind is that this character is unlikely to ever get above 5 or 6th level because the game just isn't going to last that long (see OP). Excessive Multiclassing is probably just uneccesary. He's also going to have a grand total of 3 or 4 Feats on top of whatever he gets from Class. Being able to "save" a feat by having an Animal Companion instead of Wild Cohort is a pretty worthwhile accomplishment.

[Greenish]

A point to bear in mind is that this character is unlikely to ever get above 5 or 6th level because the game just isn't going to last that long (see OP). Excessive Multiclassing is probably just uneccesary.Well, martial classes being what they are…

And besides, OP already said he'll be going for psywarr. :smalltongue:

[gkathellar]

Knight might well be a better fit than Ranger...I'll admit that I can't really say because I'm not astonishingly familiar with it (not a fan of PHBII).

The only problem with knight is that it gets a focus on shield-based combat. But Knight's Challenge abilities are perfect fits for the "face above all else" culture of Sengoku and Edo period nobility.


Hence; knight. Or dip OA samurai, as gkathellar suggests.

Or dip Warblade. It gives you Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Knowledge (History) as class skills, among others. It can net you Perform if you allow for homebrew discipline-swapping.


You are right, TWF was not the first-and-foremost style (just because it is enormously hard to master), but Musashi was one of the few samurai never to be defeated in a duel (and he invented that style).

And strictly speaking, the samurai was not a melee combatant, but a mounted archer in the first place. Their dominance in melee combat came later in the period, as the battlefields changed and the importance of horses diminished.

Musashi only fully developed his two-sword technique late in life, well after his famous duel with Sasaki Kojiro (where he famously had to carve a very long bokken for himself in order to compete with Kojiro's exceptional long-blade skills) or his battle with the Yoshioka school (where he killed a bunch of the guys ambushing him and then ran away).

And strictly speaking, the samurai were warrior-aristocrats of the Sengoku and Edo period, not any particular school or style of battlefield or civilian fighting.