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XionUnborn01
2012-01-16, 01:35 PM
The following is an idea I had to change VoP;
AC Bonus: An ascetic gains a +4 exalted bonus to armor class, this bonus counts as an armor bonus. The bonus increases to +5 at third level and by +1 every odd level thereafter.

Bonus Exulted Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter the ascetic gains a bonus Exalted feat. An ascetic may instead use this ability to gain a non-exalted feat, but all the prerequisites of that feat are increased by 2. An ascetic doesn’t gain these feats retroactively unlike other abilities of this vow.

Endure Elements: 3rd level -50 to 140

Exulted Strike: At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 exulted bonus on attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon. This enhancement bonus rises to +2 at 7th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 13th level, +5 at 16th level, and +6 at 19th level. At 10th level and weapon damage dealt is treated as good, at 15th and weapon damage dealt overcomes damage reduction that could be overcome by a specific material, and at 20th level any weapon damage dealt ignores half the value of damage reduction if it couldn't normally be overcome. Additionally, at 7th level the ascetic may choose a +1 weapon special ability such as flaming or frost to apply to any attacks they make, provided that the ability could be added to a weapon of that type (so a club could not gain vorpal for instance). At 10th level and every three levels thereafter, the maximum ability bonus increases by one up to a total of +5 at 19th level. These points can be used in any distribution for five +1 bonuses or a +3 bonus and a +2 bonus. These abilities are chosen at the beginning of each day and can be changed with one hour of meditation

Sustenance: At 5th level an ascetic no longer needs to eat or drink, though they still may benefit from the effects of a Hero's Feast spell or similar effect.

Flight:An ascetic of 6th level gains the ability to fly. 6th level gives him the ability to fly at half his land speed with clumsy maneuverability, 11th level gains average maneuverability at full land speed, and 16th level gives him perfect maneuverability at 1.5 times his land speed.

Deflection: At 6th level an ascetic receives a +1 deflection bonus to his AC. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 15th level and +5 at 18th level.

Resistance: At 5th level, an ascetic gains a +1 exalted bonus on all saving throws. This increases to +2 at 8th level, +3 at 11th level, +4 at 14th level, and +5 at 17th level and +6 at 20th level.

Ability Score Increase: At 7th level an ascetic gains a +2 exalted bonus to one ability score. At 9th level he gains an extra +2 to that score and +2 to another ability score. At 11th level he gains an extra +2 to those two scores and +2 to a third. At 13th level he gains an extra +2 to those three scores and +2 to a fourth. At 15th level he gains another +2 to those four scores and a +2 to a fifth. At 17th level he gains another +2 to those five scores and a +2 to his last score. At 19th level he gains a bonus +2 to all scores.

Natural Armor: At 8th level an ascetic gains a +2 natural armor bonus or his existing natural armor bonus increases by +2, at 14th level it increases an extra +2, and at 20th level it increases another +2

Mind Shielding: At 8th level an ascetic character becomes immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to discern his alignment. He also gains a +4 exulted bonus against any mind effecting effects.

Damage Reduction: An ascetic gains damage reduction 5/evil at 9th level. This increases to 10/evil at 15th level and 10/- at 20th level.

Greater Sustenance: Once he attains 12th level, an ascetic character doesn't need to breathe. Additionally, he needs only half the rest normally needed by his race (generally 4 hours, or only 2 hours in the case of elven characters).

Energy Resistance: At 9th level, an ascetic gains resistance 10 to all energy types. This increases to 15 at 14th level, and 25 at 19th level.

Superior Sustenance: An ascetic of 16th level no longer needs to sleep, though a spellcaster still requires 8 hours of rest to prepare spells.

Freedom of Movement: At 14th level, an ascetic can act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.

Regeneration: At 13th level, an ascetic gains fast healing equal to one half his con modifier (round up), At 17th level he additionally gains regeneration equal to his con modifier. Chaotic and Evil aligned weapons deal normal damage to an ascetic character.

True Seeing: At 17th level an ascetic gains a constant true seeing ability, as the spell.

Mind Blank: At 18th level, an ascetic is under the constant effect of mind blank, as the spell.

Paragon of Virtue: At 20th level an ascetic has become a paragon of the virtues of good and giving. All NPCs and animals have a starting attitude of friendly unless influenced otherwise. They gain a +5 bonus against evil spells and death effects, they also become immune to fear and any special ability or spell they cast has its DC increased by 5 if its target is an evil creature.


Notes:
I wanted to increase the power of VoP to make it worthwhile. A few problems I have right now is;
1) I think I overdid the ability score increases, and would like a lot of help determining this because as of right now it comes out to +14/+12/+10/+8/+6/+4 That seems to be excessive, but the whole loss of loot thing might balance it out.
2) The bonus feats, does the prerequisite increase make it fair? I wanted them to be able to take feats that mattered and don't suck.
3) Paragon of Virtue, I really wanted this to have some sort of capstone ability, but maybe that's not needed? I couldn't decide.
4) Added Mind Blank at a high level as an upgrade of Mind Shielding, though that might be too much.
5) The power level in general, I don't have the ability to judge it that well as I made it so I have a hard time deciding.

Please give me some feedback, and all comments will be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: For the sake of convenience, I'm updating the actual text on the following board and writing in changes i'm considering making here.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2839.0

Urpriest
2012-01-16, 01:48 PM
The prerequisite increase is silly because not all feats have ability score prereqs and if you meant something broader than that then "increase by two" can mean radically different things. You need to handle that differently. One way is to simply add better Exalted feats, the other would be to broaden the category without overly broadening it in some way. (Perhaps include Divine feats and Devotion feats).

Edit: Also, flight is gained way too late.

Snowbluff
2012-01-16, 01:50 PM
I think VoP is fine the way it is...

Hiro Protagonest
2012-01-16, 01:54 PM
I think VoP is fine the way it is...

How? Magic items are extremely important for non-casters. Full casters require holy symbols or material components.

XionUnborn01
2012-01-16, 03:24 PM
The prerequisite increase is silly because not all feats have ability score prereqs and if you meant something broader than that then "increase by two" can mean radically different things. You need to handle that differently. One way is to simply add better Exalted feats, the other would be to broaden the category without overly broadening it in some way. (Perhaps include Divine feats and Devotion feats).

The arbitrary increase was just the only thing i could think of at the time. Would including divine feats actually expand it much? Well it couldn't hurt at all. I know making useful Exulted feats would work better but It seems easier to just let VoP feats have a broader spectrum. Divine Feats would be a good start, what about adding feats whose prerequisites are one or more of your class abilities?


Edit: Also, flight is gained way too late.

I know that it's way too late but I wasn't sure exactly where to implement it. What about clumsy and 1/2 speed at 6th, poor and base speed at 11, average and 1.5 base speed at 16th?


I think VoP is fine the way it is...

Generally if you're playing low-op games it's not terrible, at least that's the case I've seen in most the low-op games i've been in. We're usually low-op because we've been teaching a lot of new people/losing people to them moving away so it's been a decent option though i would like to see it have relevance in higher-op games.

Urpriest
2012-01-16, 03:40 PM
The arbitrary increase was just the only thing i could think of at the time. Would including divine feats actually expand it much? Well it couldn't hurt at all. I know making useful Exulted feats would work better but It seems easier to just let VoP feats have a broader spectrum. Divine Feats would be a good start, what about adding feats whose prerequisites are one or more of your class abilities?


The problem is the same as the prerequisite increase idea: it's not a good idea to make a category like that where game terms didn't previously exist. You'll get something hideously nonuniform and recklessly ambiguous. If you don't want to go with existing tags, either make up a list of your own or at least go for something that has a uniform effect on the feats it applies to.

Your flight progression looks ok, though you might want to look at the Raptoran and Dragonborn for comparison.

XionUnborn01
2012-01-16, 03:58 PM
The problem is the same as the prerequisite increase idea: it's not a good idea to make a category like that where game terms didn't previously exist. You'll get something hideously nonuniform and recklessly ambiguous. If you don't want to go with existing tags, either make up a list of your own or at least go for something that has a uniform effect on the feats it applies to.

Though I dread the work, simply making a list might be the easiest way to expand the list and make it work.


Your flight progression looks ok, though you might want to look at the Raptoran and Dragonborn for comparison.

Can't believe i forgot about this! Thank's for the reminder I'll check them right now.

Snowbluff
2012-01-16, 06:18 PM
... and now what you've done is ridiculous...

Hiro Protagonest
2012-01-16, 06:55 PM
Hmm, I think you should drastically reduce the ability score bonuses. Make it +2 to any ability score at all of the levels you already have (I considered maxing it at +6, but then I thought of heroes like Hercules and Samson for super high strength, and Achilles for absurd constitution). Change the 16th level flight maneuverability from perfect to good. Then we'll look at it again.

Chronos
2012-01-16, 07:03 PM
How? Magic items are extremely important for non-casters. Full casters require holy symbols or material components.Low-cost material components are already allowed under VoP. By a strict reading of the RAW, a holy symbol isn't, but I can't imagine that there's any DM out there who wouldn't actually houserule that you can have a wooden holy symbol. A wizard's spellbook is more problematic, though of course you could just play a sorcerer instead.

Treblain
2012-01-16, 08:43 PM
Mind Blank needs an exception for friendly spells and effects.

Tenno Seremel
2012-01-16, 10:33 PM
Mind Blank needs

Nah, normal Mind Blank does not allow that either.

Treblain
2012-01-16, 10:52 PM
Nah, normal Mind Blank does not allow that either.

Mind Blank can be dismissed. This can't.

Tenno Seremel
2012-01-16, 10:58 PM
Mind Blank can be dismissed. This can't.

And dispelled. This cannot, however.

Snowbluff
2012-01-16, 11:45 PM
And dispelled. This cannot, however.

That's probably the biggest problem here. VoP only exists for 2 reasons. Either your DM is clingy to your hard earned gold, or you want to RP a person with a vow of poverty. The feat is not a competitive one, it pretty much reads "You don't get your WBL, but you get some meager bonuses to make up for it".

Under neither of these categories do I read "You get things most other people will not have without WBL, and yours can not be dispelled".

Tenno Seremel
2012-01-17, 12:09 AM
You have to take good with the bad. Balancing RP choice with over the top number of abilities is wrong.

EDIT: I mean… what's the point of restriction if you don't have any in the end?

Hiro Protagonest
2012-01-17, 07:14 PM
You have to take good with the bad. Balancing RP choice with over the top number of abilities is wrong.

EDIT: I mean… what's the point of restriction if you don't have any in the end?

Maybe it's so you can play a guy without any equipment (martial artist or a warrior using a simple weapon, in the purest definition of badass normal) and not be worse than the walking christmas tree? This is currently too much, yes, but VoP should be just as good as WBL.

XionUnborn01
2012-01-17, 08:07 PM
I've though of a possible change that would drastically lessen the Ability Score Increase.

How would it be if, at 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, and 17th levels you simply chose two abilities to give +2, with the 19th level ability being still +2 to all abilities. Does this weaken it TOO much? I'm trying to find a happy medium. This new form makes it so you can have +6 to all stats at lvl 19, though no one is going to be spreading them out that much I assume. What do you guys think?

Hiro Protagonest
2012-01-17, 08:26 PM
I've though of a possible change that would drastically lessen the Ability Score Increase.

How would it be if, at 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, and 17th levels you simply chose two abilities to give +2, with the 19th level ability being still +2 to all abilities. Does this weaken it TOO much? I'm trying to find a happy medium. This new form makes it so you can have +6 to all stats at lvl 19, though no one is going to be spreading them out that much I assume. What do you guys think?

That's still too powerful. There's no way a normal character will buy that many stat boosting items, plus all the AC boosting items, plus a +6 holy silver/cold iron/pseudo-adamantine weapon, plus a flight item, plus all that other stuff.

I'd also cut out the regeneration (but not the fast healing, although maybe make it so that doesn't work if they fall into negative hit points). If you want them to have a way of regaining limbs, make it so they can regain limbs by meditating or praying for an amount of time between one and eight hours (that shouldn't be the actual time conditions, just pick a number of hours between one and eight and put that in).

I think you should also cut out superior sustenance.

You should probably reduce the number of energy types you have resistance to. Make it one energy type, and another one with the same amount of resistance at 14th and 19th level.

Tenno Seremel
2012-01-18, 12:12 AM
Maybe it's so you can play a guy without any equipment (martial artist or a warrior using a simple weapon, in the purest definition of badass normal) and not be worse than the walking christmas tree? This is currently too much, yes, but VoP should be just as good as WBL.

Well… read item descriptions and say that they apply to character without any items. Problem solved [aka fluff].

Coidzor
2012-01-18, 01:03 PM
Low-cost material components are already allowed under VoP. By a strict reading of the RAW, a holy symbol isn't, but I can't imagine that there's any DM out there who wouldn't actually houserule that you can have a wooden holy symbol.

Normal holy symbols are wooden and cost 1 gp.

Tenno Seremel
2012-01-18, 01:07 PM
Normal holy symbols are wooden and cost 1 gp.
I'm pretty sure this piece of wood price involves smuggling and druids.

Greenish
2012-01-18, 01:17 PM
I'm pretty sure this piece of wood price involves smuggling and druids.Wooden holy symbols are made by cutting a MW quarterstaff into 600 slices.

lunar2
2012-01-18, 02:37 PM
I'd made my own version of VoP a while ago. You might take a look at it.


Vow of Poverty.
A character that has taken this vow has agreed not to use magic items in exchange for the following benefits. all benefits are retroactive:
1. they gain a bonus to all attack rolls equal to 1 per 4 levels
2. they gain a bonus feat at 1st level, as well as at every 3rd level. these feats still require all prerequisites, and can't be used as prerequisites of feats not gained by this vow. example: you can't take mobility without already having dodge, but if you take dodge with this feature, it only allows mobility if you also take mobility with this feature.
3. they gain a bonus directly to AC at every 2nd level.
4. they gain a +2 bonus to any ability score at every 5th level.

this vow may seem weak, but remember that everything is untyped, so all buff spells, etc. still apply. also, there is no limit to what kinds of armor, weapons, etc. that can be used, as long as it's not magical.

Urpriest
2012-01-18, 03:08 PM
Come to think of it, honest question: why not just give wbl in points to pay for nonexistent items? You could even make them take slots, be disarmable,etc. They just won't be physical objects, but (disarmable) aspects of your character. Most of the good items make more sense that way anyway.

Helldog
2012-01-18, 05:45 PM
Give the PC (Su) abilities that imitate powers of items by paying (donating) an amount of cash equal double the cost of the item (because it's slotless).
Essentially you are forced to pay double and have your items slotless, but at least you can have some.

Coidzor
2012-01-18, 05:51 PM
Come to think of it, honest question: why not just give wbl in points to pay for nonexistent items? You could even make them take slots, be disarmable,etc. They just won't be physical objects, but (disarmable) aspects of your character. Most of the good items make more sense that way anyway.

Crib a bit from Incarnum and chakras, even. Would work fairly well as a sort of dual manifestation of one's piety and devotion as well as the rewards of one's divine patrons.

Talya
2012-01-18, 10:24 PM
Prior to level 20, VOP actually already far surpasses WBL in total value (primarily due to a couple epic items it simulates.) It's still not usually competitive because, much like the monk class, these abilities are chosen for you, and omit too many abilities many people consider essential.

That said, fixing VOP requires only a couple small changes. None of them involve changing the static bonuses it provides...they're already great.


1. Allow all items that are either "Class Features" or an essential component of the classes the player takes (Spellbooks, Holy Symbols, Ancestral Daisho, etc.) as exceptions.
2. Add a few more Exalted feats that replicate in at least limited way some of the so-called essential features, such as flight, blindsense, ways to overcome damage reduction, armor and weapon special abilities, etc.

Lastly, just reiterate the already existing mechanic by which VOP characters are already stated to be able to gain favors such as spellcasting services from the church or organization they donate most of their gains to. Absolutely nothing prevents a VOP character from getting inherent bonuses to ability scores, thanks to this "Goodwill" mechanic described in the book.

XionUnborn01
2012-01-18, 10:30 PM
I'm really liking how this is going! I would never have thought of that. Should I do like the incarnum classes and have things available at certain level (head, hands feet) like they do for their soulbinds? I could easily see something awesome coming from this. Should they get a 'pool' of money that they choose items from every day, or should it be you gain 'piety points' equal to the amount of gold and items you donate (full price for items) and you use those points to 'buy' these 'items' and once you have one you lose those points. I could see arguments going both ways, though I think it's more fair if once you get something you lose that many points.

I could even see using it to get wands, then using a standard action to create the effect from that wand and after each use your ability wavers (like losing a charge) and you can renew the abilities paying an appropriate amount of points per charge. Or similarly you use piety points equal to 1/2 the price of a wand of that spell would be, then you gain that spell as an at-will SLA but each use costs piety points.

On a related note, piety points sounds odd. Maybe something more like charity points? of course that makes them sounds bad...I dunno, proper names are really at the bottom of the list.