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View Full Version : "Evil" Things for a Paladin to Do



Piggy Knowles
2012-01-16, 01:35 PM
DISCLAIMER: My goal here is not to start any alignment debates. This thread is solely in reference to a paladin build that can use spells and items with the [Evil] descriptor without penalty.

So, I'm putting together a build compendium for myself and some friends, where I jot down character concepts I have and then flesh them out into actual builds.

One of the character concepts that I'm working on now is a Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II) Paladin/Gray Guard. The idea is a grim but determined paladin willing to do anything to pursue enemies of his faith and succeed on missions for his church.

In any case, the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex allows me to use spells and items with the [Evil] descriptor without risking a change in alignment, while Gray Guard gives me some flexibility with my paladin code. I'm trying to find some interesting things I can do with this.

Obviously there aren't any spells with the [Evil] descriptor on the paladin's spell list, so I guess I could start by taking Sword of the Arcane Order for access to Sorcerer/Wizard spells. This is what I've come up with so far...

Evil Spells for a Good Guy

Animate Dead. Now I can finally fight with the bones of my fallen enemies, without risking my alignment in the process!

Black Bag. (BoVD spell). Both Gray Guard and Hellbred's flavor specifically go into the idea of torturing a heretic for information that is vital to the character's cause, so it'd be nice to have a source of evil torturing tools.

Bedevil. (Champions of Ruin). Same concept as the above, but cooler execution.

Summon Undead I-IV. (HoH/Libris Morties). Eh. By the time I'm high enough level to cast Summon Undead IV, none of the creatures on it will pose any kind of threat.

...

Anyhow, I like the concept, but mechanically I haven't found too much that excites me from out of the deep end of the alignment pool. (Or, at least, not that a Paladin would have access to.) What other interesting things could I do with a Paladin that can use things with the [Evil] descriptor without falling?

Steward
2012-01-16, 01:56 PM
If I remember Hellbreds correctly, they are basically evildoers who repented / felt remorse at the exact moment of death, and were given a chance to return to life to atone for their former evil, right? And while they did get a second chance, their souls still technically belong to an archdevil who gets to claim it if they die a second time without fully atoning.

My idea is that they can use the "Investiture of the [devil]" line of spells from Fiendish Codex 2, thumbing their nose at the devils by using the devils' own superpowers to fight against their kind of evil.

Callista
2012-01-16, 02:17 PM
I wouldn't go for anything involving torture. He may be a grey guard, but he's still a paladin, and hates that kind of stuff; so it would be totally out of character. Plus, torture is unreliable. People will say anything to get out of it, including lies; and high-level enemies will make the will save every time anyhow.

If you want your inquisitor-style paladin to get information from an uncooperative enemy, I recommend mind-reading instead. You don't need spells like Mindrape, because you don't need to re-write their minds, only read what's there. There are a few spells that let you do that, and they are a good deal more reliable than torture.

Grey Guard is an interesting class--kind of a knight in tarnished armor. Think of all the things that a paladin would consider honorable; all the rules that he follows because they're considered proper and decent and nice. Those are the ones you can discard. Try poison use. Ambushes. Illusions. Go undercover, in disguise; trick the enemy. You don't have to fight fair anymore. Of course, you're still LG, so given the choice you'll fight fair; but the Grey Guard's whole schtick is that he's in a world where he can't fight fair anymore because if he does, he'll lose, and all the people he's protecting will get hurt. So drop the honor and the shiny armor, but don't drop your main goal. I think of it kind of like the guy who's a good cop at heart, and will fight to the last to defend the people on his block; but has seen so much cruelty and so much nastiness that he's not going to let paperwork and police regulations stand in the way of stopping the bad guys. That's your Grey Guard.

Let's see... I mentioned poison and ambushes. You may want to up the sneaky factor with some lighter armor or armor enchanted to remove the penalties to the sneaky skills (move silently, hide, etc.). For going undercover or disguising yourself, you want Alter Self, preferably on an item. There's armor out there that you can change to look like normal clothing--glamered, I think.

You've got the usual paladin social skills, I presume? Go for Bluff as well as diplomacy, if you have the skill points for it. See if you can get it as a class skill somehow. Bluff is not just useful for social stuff; you can also use it to feint in combat, which puts your opponent off-guard for your rogue buddy to skewer. I've had improved feint on a paladin/rogue, and it actually worked very well. Good charisma, Bluff from the rogue levels, and improved feint to make it fast--cue Smite Evil Sneak Attack damage. Your paladin won't mind ganging up on an enemy, so take advantage of flanking.

Regarding undead: Mindless only, I think; and your pally will want to either use enemies' bodies or legitimately obtain bodies to use. If the creation of undead does not trap the soul, then it's not an outright evil act. Talk to your DM, ask what your paladin's deity would think of it. In some worlds, mindless undead are neutral and just unpopular and scary. In others, their existence drains the life out of their surroundings, so they have to be used judiciously. In yet others, they bind the body's soul to the world and stop it from passing to the afterlife, and are capital-E Evil. Make sure you know which one your campaign world is, so you know what your character would think of doing things like this.

Like you had in your topic, there's Evil and then there's "Evil". The full-out Evil stuff is what your paladin is fighting. The "Evil" stuff is stuff that just looks bad, is unpopular or sneaky, or is associated with Evil in some way. That's the stuff you can compromise on. But remember your character is walking a thin line. Most paladins stay far, far away from anything that smacks of Evil. This one will be getting as close as he can to get as much of an advantage as he can. He probably knows very well that if he slips even the slightest bit, he'll fall to evil himself. Stare into the abyss, and all that.

Oh, and that said: He's tinkering with dangerous stuff here. One possible setup you might want to consider, depending on his personality, is a sort of magical "dead-man's switch" in the form of a crafted contingency spell set to go off in the event of an alignment change or mind control. The spell itself should be something that will incapacitate you, like Flesh to Stone; and possibly a Sending to friends explaining that your failsafe just went off and you might need somebody to un-mindcontrol you, slap on an Atonement spell, or possibly just give you a piece of their mind before you lose sight of your goal. I had this active in one campaign where mind-control and possession were common. It never triggered, but I'm pretty sure it would've worked as intended.