Skill Points houserule

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was thinking on introducing a pair of houserules concerning skill points to my game; but I want some feedback on them before I do so.

First SKill points gained per level will no longer be X + Int Modifier; but X*Int Modifier (minimum times 1 so to avoid loosing skillpoints if you have a negative modifier) , so a rogue with Int 14 (+2) would get 8*2 Skillpoints per level instead of 8+2 normally. I haven't figured out the math; but it seems that this means a net increases in skill points for all classes.

I am also a bit wary on how this would interact with the *4 skillpoints at first level.. I was thinking x + (Int mod+4); but I am not sure on that.

The other is removing the cross class skill caps, you can buy full ranks in them; but you must still pay 2 skill points per rank.

Is there something funny that I am missing? I am doing this to allow for a wider set of "mundane" skill sets between characters as I feel that even skill monkey classes such as Rogue or Factotum get really few skill points. And to be honest there are only two really abusable skills in the game ( UMD and Diplomacy as written, Iajutsu focus may be debatable).

So what do you think?

[HunterOfJello]

Adding a multiplier instead of using addition will create a large increase in skill points for characters with a high int who take levels in classes with high skill points. It will provide a negligible benefit for characters who have a low int and take levels in classes that don't take levels in classes with low skill points.

That is, it will give a big bonus to an intelligent rogue and almost no bonus at all to an intelligent fighter.

~

Increasing all classes skill points by 2 per level is usually a better quick fix as far as skill points go. (i.e. Fighters are 4+int and Rogues are 10+int)

[Kumori]

That is a lot of skill points per level... Consider a Rogue with 18 Int. He'd get 32 skills per level.

As for cross class skills, I don't see any problems removing the half max ranks limitation. Personally, I hate crossclass skills. I houserule over them too, but a little differently. I effectively charge 3 skill points to "buy" a crossclass skill as a class skill. Following that, the skill is treated as a class skill for all classes the character takes. There's a few more details to it to deal with multiclassing and other factors, but that's the gist of it.

Edit Just had a thought. If you want high Int to provide a significant amount of skill ranks, maybe try multiplying the Int bonus instead of changing the formula. Example: a Ranger would get 4+(2*Int) skills per level. 16 Int would be 10 points. Not enough? Multiply by three instead for 13 points. This keeps the balance between classes and provides a good deal more skills to characters who want them.

[Greenish]

And to be honest there are only two really abusable skills in the gameHandle Animal and Forgery?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Adding a multiplier instead of using addition will create a large increase in skill points for characters with a high int who take levels in classes with high skill points. It will provide a negligible benefit for characters who have a low int and take levels in classes that don't take levels in classes with low skill points.

That is, it will give a big bonus to an intelligent rogue and almost no bonus at all to an intelligent fighter.

~

Increasing all classes skill points by 2 per level is usually a better quick fix as far as skill points go. (i.e. Fighters are 4+int and Rogues are 10+int)

The thing is that I have done that in the past and I still feel there aren't enough skill points per level; but I see your point that this benefits more some classes than other.



That is a lot of skill points per level... Consider a Rogue with 18 Int. He'd get 32 skills per level.

As for cross class skills, I don't see any problems removing the half max ranks limitation. Personally, I hate crossclass skills. I houserule over them too, but a little differently. I effectively charge 3 skill points to "buy" a crossclass skill as a class skill. Following that, the skill is treated as a class skill for all classes the character takes. There's a few more details to it to deal with multiclassing and other factors, but that's the gist of it.

Let's be honest, other than Int Based casters and Factotums, which other class can really put an 18 in Int and not suffer in other areas?

Can you elaborate on your cross class rules? Sounds interesting.


Handle Animal and Forgery?
I didn't really think about them...though I think forgery is a bit more campaign dependant; but I see what you mean.

[Ravens_cry]

Greenish:
Forgery depends on the campaign. If you are adventuring in a civilized or at least bureaucratic society, Forgery is great. "Of course I am General Mukymuk here to see Bishop High Falootin', and these papers prove it."
There, and with a cooperative DM ,it is awesome.
Play more out in the wild and Forgery isn't worth the character sheet it is printed on.
Less actually.
Leaves just aren't as absorbent.

[jaybird]

Use the Pathfinder skills. Condenses a lot of them - Spot, Listen, and Search into Perception, Balance, Tumble, and Jump into Acrobatics, etc etc.

[Kumori]

Can you elaborate on your cross class rules? Sounds interesting.

I will do so later, however I'm on my phone right now, typing can be a hassle. 7 or 8 hours from now I'll type it up for you.

[Greenish]

Play more out in the wild and Forgery isn't worth the character sheet it is printed on.Hence I paired it off with Handle Animal. All the interaction skills you'll ever need. :smalltongue:

[Kyberwulf]

I just abolish the who Class Skills in general. You can pick up any skill for any class, and its all on a one for one basis. That is as long as you can find someone to teach you.

Edit: The Skill cap is still at Level + 3

[Lateral]

Handle Animal and Forgery?

Lucid Dreaming? :smalltongue:

(Or so I've heard. Don't know anything about it.)

[sreservoir]

Lucid Dreaming? :smalltongue:

(Or so I've heard. Don't know anything about it.)

oh, lucid dreaming. being able to assassinate anything that sleeps, opposed only by their lucid dreaming and grapple checks, while leaving effectively no signs, is marvelous.

most people? are not optimized for grappling and lucid dreaming.

[SpaceBadger]

In PF, I've increased all classes to minimum of 4+IntMod. Medium skill classes still get 6+IntMod. High skilled classes like Rogue get 8+2*IntMod.

All classes also get double skill points at first level, of which at least 4 points have to go into some plausible background skills such as Knowledge(Local), Craft, Profession, etc.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Lucid Dreaming? :smalltongue:

(Or so I've heard. Don't know anything about it.)

Don't forget diplomacy.

[FMArthur]

I generally view skill points as just one more faucet of problem-solving flexibility, so full casters who already have tons of utility and stuff from their class features do keep their 2 + Int when I bump up all the other classes to the 4 + Int minimum that lots of people suggest. Basically anyone T3 and down gets the 4 + Int minimum.

[Mystify]

I've made plenty of skill monkeys, and I never felt that there weren't enough skill points. Sure, you want more, but I'd also like 1d12 HD, full BaB, all good saves, all exotic weapon proficiencies, and full spellcasting from both wizard and cleric. That does not mean you should give it.

You just need to utilize the skills you do have properly. It is more interesting to have characters utilize their skillset to solve problems in interesting ways than to have characters that simply utilize the obvious skill at every turn.

A small increase in skill points may be appropriate, but there is no need to explode the skills points like you are proposing.

[Kumori]

Can you elaborate on your cross class rules? Sounds interesting.

I will do so later, however I'm on my phone right now, typing can be a hassle. 7 or 8 hours from now I'll type it up for you.

It is now later...

There is a little bit of awkwardness to my homerule, specifically points #3 and 4 below. All the changes I make are as follows:

Once a skill is a class skill, it is a class skill for all the character's classes.
"Max ranks" does not exist. Instead, each skill has a "max skill points invested". This limit is HD+3.
The first six skill points invested into a cross-class skill follow the standard half ranks thingy, granting 3 ranks. After this point all ranks are bought for 1 skill point.
Each skill that is on any one class list of a character is a class skill for every class that character takes. If skill points had been invested in a skill that is later gained as a class skill through multi-classing (or other method), all half ranks become full ranks. Example: Fighter 4 with 7 points in Spot (4 ranks) takes a level of Rogue. The 7 points change from 4 ranks to 7 ranks, and the player may add one more point to max the skill at 8.

I think that pretty much covers it... Oh, I also change the skill feats a little. Each of them adds the skills they boost to a character's skill list in addition to the regular bonus they provide. I'm contemplating improving Skill Focus more, but haven't decided on it yet.

[Venger]

Lucid Dreaming? :smalltongue:

(Or so I've heard. Don't know anything about it.)


oh, lucid dreaming. being able to assassinate anything that sleeps, opposed only by their lucid dreaming and grapple checks, while leaving effectively no signs, is marvelous.

most people? are not optimized for grappling and lucid dreaming.

huh? what book is the lucid dreaming skill in? all I can find is the lucid dreaming feat in hyperconscious.

[FMArthur]

I've made plenty of skill monkeys, and I never felt that there weren't enough skill points. Sure, you want more, but I'd also like 1d12 HD, full BaB, all good saves, all exotic weapon proficiencies, and full spellcasting from both wizard and cleric. That does not mean you should give it.

You just need to utilize the skills you do have properly. It is more interesting to have characters utilize their skillset to solve problems in interesting ways than to have characters that simply utilize the obvious skill at every turn.

A small increase in skill points may be appropriate, but there is no need to explode the skills points like you are proposing.

Yeah I'm getting the impression that the OP wants to have max ranks in every useful skill when they play a skilled class. Max ranks are not required to be good at something, and if every intelligent skillmonkey had all the same skills it would reduce the variety of the game.

A multiplicative effect also badly warps the range from good -> bad skill sets based on how good your intelligence is relative to your class's skills. A character with a +4 Int mod and 4+Int skills will have 16 skill points per level. A character with a +2 Int mod and 6+Int skills would normally have the same number, but in the proposed system winds up with noticeably less than the other character. The minimum +1 it forces into the game also means that if your class doesn't use Int, a 12 in Intelligence is 100% useless. It provides no benefit over any lower score at all. So the proposed system just doesn't work from a fundamental level and can't really be adapted.

[ericgrau]

It actually seems to cheapen things a bit. Like you're saying, skills don't matter anyway so I don't care if I give out a bajillion of them because that still won't break the game. Instead I'd encourage skills more by (a) having more skill based challenges and (b) making the difficulty low enough that players will want to use skills over alternative methods; likewise let them take a 10, take a 20 and reroll where the rules allow without screwing over their class with "no, the encounter explodes in your face and murders your unborn children if you try, muahaha look at my dungeon and despair at your attempt at using skills". (b) will also mean players can get away with spreading out their ranks into more skills instead of maxing out everything, except 1 or 2 things that they might want to dominate at.

And you should let them dominate in that narrow window of situations where they max out, or otherwise nobody will bother pouring resources into skills that have a narrow application and might fail and we're right where we started. It's not worth it. As pointed out the alternative is to make everybody so-so at everything, and then it's dull because it's just based on a die roll not on how you specialized.

[Ravens_cry]

huh? what book is the lucid dreaming skill in? all I can find is the lucid dreaming feat in hyperconscious.
Apparently, it is in the Manual of the Planes.

[Venger]

Apparently, it is in the Manual of the Planes.

Oh my god, thank you for telling me about this, this is the best thing I've ever read in a splat. now I have rules for running my inception oneshot

[Lonely Tylenol]

First SKill points gained per level will no longer be X + Int Modifier; but X*Int Modifier (minimum times 1 so to avoid loosing skillpoints if you have a negative modifier) , so a rogue with Int 14 (+2) would get 8*2 Skillpoints per level instead of 8+2 normally. I haven't figured out the math; but it seems that this means a net increases in skill points for all classes.

A Gray Elf Rogue with 20 INT now has max ranks in every core skill and knowledge in the game (minus Craft, Profession and Perform), plus Iajutsu Focus.

[Curmudgeon]

Increasing all classes skill points by 2 per level is usually a better quick fix as far as skill points go. (i.e. Fighters are 4+int and Rogues are 10+int)
Perhaps it's better, but it's definitely not good. It's not just Fighters who would benefit greatly from this boost, but also Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers. You'd be doubling the base skill point application for these already-powerful spellcasting classes (+100%), whereas Rogues get a proportionally small increase (+25%). By increasing the relative skill level of spellcasters greatly and skillmonkeys slightly you're devaluing the worth of skilled classes.

If you want something fairer, you could go for +50% of the base allocation for everyone: Wizards and Fighters get 3, Rogues get 12.

[Kumori]

Perhaps it's better, but it's definitely not good. It's not just Fighters who would benefit greatly from this boost, but also Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers. You'd be doubling the base skill point application for these already-powerful spellcasting classes (+100%), whereas Rogues get a proportionally small increase (+25%). By increasing the relative skill level of spellcasters greatly and skillmonkeys slightly you're devaluing the worth of skilled classes.

If you want something fairer, you could go for +50% of the base allocation for everyone: Wizards and Fighters get 3, Rogues get 12.

Still not a perfect fix, but you do bring up yet another issue with changing the rules from how they are written.

[Gullintanni]

Perhaps it's better, but it's definitely not good. It's not just Fighters who would benefit greatly from this boost, but also Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers. You'd be doubling the base skill point application for these already-powerful spellcasting classes (+100%), whereas Rogues get a proportionally small increase (+25%). By increasing the relative skill level of spellcasters greatly and skillmonkeys slightly you're devaluing the worth of skilled classes.

If you want something fairer, you could go for +50% of the base allocation for everyone: Wizards and Fighters get 3, Rogues get 12.

I've always been of a mind that anything without a full spell list should have a minimum 4+Int skills per level, and that full casters have enough versatility that any full caster complaining about a paltry 2+Int per level can suck it up.

[Heliomance]

I give everyone in my campaigns +50% base skillpoints. I love skills, and think they should be used more. So everyone gets a boost. But they get it proportionally to how many skill points they had before - skillmonkeys get even more skilled, and wizards or fighers get to diversify just that little bit.

[Qwertystop]

oh, lucid dreaming. being able to assassinate anything that sleeps, opposed only by their lucid dreaming and grapple checks, while leaving effectively no signs, is marvelous.

most people? are not optimized for grappling and lucid dreaming.

How does this work? All I can see is being able to mimic 9th level physical-effect spells at level (14-WIS modifier). That would still have the problem of them being able to make the save. Is that what you're talking about? And what's grappling have to do with it?

[Slipperychicken]

How does this work? All I can see is being able to mimic 9th level physical-effect spells at level (14-WIS modifier). That would still have the problem of them being able to make the save. Is that what you're talking about? And what's grappling have to do with it?

Grapple target, then drag her to the Dreamheart (DC 25), keep her in a Tempest for 25 damage per round till she dies or makes a Wis check of 18.

[Venger]

How does this work? All I can see is being able to mimic 9th level physical-effect spells at level (14-WIS modifier). That would still have the problem of them being able to make the save. Is that what you're talking about? And what's grappling have to do with it?

you can't mimic the effects of spells that directly affect your target with a lucid dreaming check, you can merely change the background of the dream, your own appearance, realise you're dreaming, and move from one dreamscape to another. you can also travel to the dreamheart and while doing so, force your target to come with you. in order to do so though, you must make a grapple check first. then, instead of pinning, you make a DC 25 lucid dreaming check (the highest flat one there is) to drag then to the dreamheart where they can die, then you can attack normally or hold them in the tempest if your average damage per round is under 25

[Qwertystop]

Ah. My guess was to bring them to the Dreamheart, then use some save-or-die with a physical effect, like Implosion.

[Chronos]

Abusable skills, off the top of my head:
Bluff-- See the recent comic where Haley had a potion of glibness
Diplomacy-- I assume everyone already knows about this one
Forgery-- Basically Bluff, but on paper
Hide/Move Silently-- If nobody ever knows you're there, they'll never do anything to you
Sleight of Hand-- Before the fight starts, sneak up to your opponent and steal all their goodies
Handle Animal-- Even if you're operating mostly in the city, just build up a huge animal army and set them loose in the city
Use Magic Device-- Get access to any spell in the game, albeit at a cost
Perform-- At least, if you're a bard. Even a bare minimum of optimization will make the save DC for Fascinate unbeatable. And even if you're not a bard, you can still change attitudes with it, same as Diplomacy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Bluff-- See the recent comic where Haley had a potion of glibness

That comic hasn't been recent for a while now. It'd been months since it came out.

Also, most of that actually doesn't work, really only the stuff she says to get past the first guards and the stuff she says to Elan. Maybe the "you don't work here anymore" too.

[Tr011]

Fighter with 3 Int: 2 skills per level
Fighter with 14 Int: 4 skills per level
Barbarian with 3 Int: 4 skills per level
Barbarian with 14 Int: 8 skills per level
Grey Elf Wizard taking levels in Ardent Dilettante (9/10 casting PrC with all class skills) at lvl 8+ (22 int): 36 skills per level, meaning he can skill every core skill except for craft, knowledge, perform and profession skills. AT EVERY LEVEL. Or he simple cuts the useless skills and takes every skill he could use at any time.

Without your (sorry) really bad house rule Intelligence and Constitution are the most important abilities in the game. With that house rule everybody will play some sort of int-focused skill monkey.
If you want more skill points, just add +1/level (and thus +4 at lvl 1) for everyone and it will be OK, or +2/lvl. Anything more would be crazy.

Btw your house rule makes any sort of sorcerer or cleric useless. Instead of playing a sorcerer it would be way better to play some sort of spontanous casting wizard and any cleric would be archivist instead. And your Fighters would go for Warblade instead and use Able Learner+Knowledge Devotion (int 16 for 12 skills per level, as much as a regular rogue gets with 18 int).

[Heliomance]

That comic hasn't been recent for a while now. It'd been months since it came out.

Also, most of that actually doesn't work, really only the stuff she says to get past the first guards and the stuff she says to Elan. Maybe the "you don't work here anymore" too.

Actually... it does. haley is a high-level Rogue who's specced fairly well for Bluff. We can assume that she has a +20 to the check at the VERY least, probably more. Glibness adds +30 untyped, so the bluff checks she's throwing out have a +50 to them, if not more. Under Epic skill usages, it says you can use a Bluff check to mimic a Suggestion spell, but the target gets a +50 to their Sense Motive check to resist. If they fail, they get hit by Suggestion. Admittedly, unless she's specced for Bluff very hard, it's not going to be as reliable as it was in the comic, but it's certainly possible.

[Gullintanni]

Fighter with 3 Int: 2 skills per level
Fighter with 14 Int: 4 skills per level
Barbarian with 3 Int: 4 skills per level
Barbarian with 14 Int: 8 skills per level
Grey Elf Wizard taking levels in Ardent Dilettante (9/10 casting PrC with all class skills) at lvl 8+ (22 int): 36 skills per level, meaning he can skill every core skill except for craft, knowledge, perform and profession skills. AT EVERY LEVEL. Or he simple cuts the useless skills and takes every skill he could use at any time.

Without your (sorry) really bad house rule Intelligence and Constitution are the most important abilities in the game. With that house rule everybody will play some sort of int-focused skill monkey.
If you want more skill points, just add +1/level (and thus +4 at lvl 1) for everyone and it will be OK, or +2/lvl. Anything more would be crazy.

Btw your house rule makes any sort of sorcerer or cleric useless. Instead of playing a sorcerer it would be way better to play some sort of spontanous casting wizard and any cleric would be archivist instead. And your Fighters would go for Warblade instead and use Able Learner+Knowledge Devotion (int 16 for 12 skills per level, as much as a regular rogue gets with 18 int).

Cleanest way to do it: Non-casters with a 2+Int mod get bumped up to 4+Int mod. Simple, easy, effective. Because Wizards don't need more nice things. Let Skills be the one thing they're bad at out of the box. Guidance of the Avatar makes them dedicated skill monkeys anyway.

[Tr011]

Cleanest way to do it: Non-casters with a 2+Int mod get bumped up to 4+Int mod. Simple, easy, effective. Because Wizards don't need more nice things. Let Skills be the one thing they're bad at out of the box. Guidance of the Avatar makes them dedicated skill monkeys anyway.

Not every caster is completly OP. Take a look at the Death Master (Dragon Compendium). Their spell list just sucks xD

[Gullintanni]

Not every caster is completly OP. Take a look at the Death Master (Dragon Compendium). Their spell list just sucks xD

Death Masters are niche casters and they can do some things pretty well...not the least of which is creating undead things that fight as well as Fighters. I will not lament over their lack of skill points.

[Greenish]

Death Masters are niche casters and they can do some things pretty well...not the least of which is creating undead things that fight as well as Fighters. I will not lament over their lack of skill points.What about healers and warmages? :smalltongue:

[Tr011]

Healer can get pretty well if you use some cheese, just imagine a healer with mass MMR-cheese casting chained repeated Heal spells. Heal whole party for like (ECL+3)*10 this round and next round? NICE.

[Gullintanni]

What about healers and warmages? :smalltongue:

Yeah they legitimately don't do anything terribly well. Alright, so you have one of two options...either adhere strictly to the non-full-caster rule, and only melee gets the SP boost. This is a clean, fast and easy approach that accepts that Healers and Warmages will always be suboptimal classes and c'est la vie.

Alternately, you rule that anything that doesn't have full list access gets the boost. This would included Dread Necromancers, Healers, Warmages, Favored Souls et. al. but not Shugenjas, Sorcerers, Wizards, Clerics, Archivists and Druids, as they can pick spells from among their entire lists. They gain versatility in terms of spell lists, but lose it in terms of skill points.

EDIT: Just as an aside, I lean toward the former. If you really want to play a focused blaster or a focused healer, and you don't want a challenging game, don't play a Healer or a Warmage. Not every class must be equal, though we can all probably agree that melee in general (TOB notwithstanding) needs as much love as it can get, and if you want to play those archetypes you already have options aplenty.

[Greenish]

Yeah they legitimately don't do anything terribly well. Alright, so you have one of two options...either adhere strictly to the non-full-caster rule, and only melee gets the SP boost. This is a clean, fast and easy approach that accepts that Healers and Warmages will always be suboptimal classes and c'est la vie.

Alternately, you rule that anything that doesn't have full list access gets the boost. This would included Dread Necromancers, Healers, Warmages, Favored Souls et. al. but not Shugenjas, Sorcerers, Wizards, Clerics, Archivists and Druids, as they can pick spells from among their entire lists. They gain versatility in terms of spell lists, but lose it in terms of skill points.Eh, it's not like wizard cares a jot whether she gets 2+int or 4+int. Druids and archivists already have 4+int, cloistered clerics 6+int. A Dread Necromancer or a psionic warrior would care.

Also, Healers are full list casters: they can prepare their spells from the full healer spell list. :smalltongue:

[Ernir]

There are not that many base classes. Going over them individually rather than systematically sounds like a vastly superior solution to me. :S