Wiz/Sorc/UltimateMagus or Wiz/Warmage/U.M.?

[Brock Samson]

This is unrelated to my earlier thread about the Monk's Belt. Which do you think makes for the "better" character? Wiz 4/Sorceror 1 (with practiced spellcaster)/Ultimate Magus X, or Wiz 4/Warmage 1 (w/ Practiced Spellcaster)/Ultimate Magus X? I'm making a 7th level character for a 3.5 game. I know there's plenty of Warmage hate out there, but if you're basing it on a mostly wizard chasis, how does that change things? Does the armor spellcasting suddenly mean a bit more at that point? How about the simple fact that you only have to keep track of your Wizard side now? What do ya'll think?

[JohnDaBarr]

try wiz3/beguiler1

[Manateee]

The only Warmage ability that carries across to your Wizard casting is the Edge. If you only want to blast - and to blast from low levels - it might be worth your time (at level 1-2, +4 damage can be a pretty big deal). But since you're starting at level 7, that's not even going to be a point in the Warmage's favor.

Warmage 9 gets maybe 6-7 distinct spells that you'd want (even on a blaster). Sorcerer 9 can get 14, and those can work around holes in your specialization in a way Warmage spells can't (unless you're banning conjuration, in which case you have bigger problems than missing Orbs and Black Tentacles).

So for the standard Spont 1/Wiz 4/UM entry with any sort of optimization in mind, I'd use Sorc or Beguiler for that spontaneous caster. Not Warmage.

[Marnath]

This might be a good place to look for ideas.


Ultimate Magus Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872322/Preliminary_Ultimate_Magus_Handbook)

[Brock Samson]

Thanks for the info so far. What book is Beguiler in????

Also, I generally don't ever specialize, but I suppose this is the build that could- and not really lose all that much.

Now, if I don't specialize, what can I swap out my familiar for?

And if I do specialize....?

[JohnDaBarr]

Beguiler, hmmm PHB 2.... I think

[ahenobarbi]

Take a look at players Handbook II. You can trade you wizard familiar for some nice abilities (abrupt jaunt is popular) if you specialize.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The only Warmage ability that carries across to your Wizard casting is the Edge. If you only want to blast - and to blast from low levels - it might be worth your time (at level 1-2, +4 damage can be a pretty big deal). But since you're starting at level 7, that's not even going to be a point in the Warmage's favor.

CA, page 13, last sentence on the page:
"The bonus from the warmage edge special ability applies only to spells that he casts as a warmage, not to those he might have by virtue of levels in another class."


Check out the Beguiler base class in PH2, it's a far better choice for UM than anything else. You can go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM, and get Able Learner to keep up your ranks in some choice Beguiler class skills. Practiced Spellcaster alone allows you to put 9/10 UM casting toward Wizard, but if you use Illumian for your race with the Krau sigil then you can put 10/10 UM toward Wizard. They're Humanoid (Human) so they even qualify for Able Learner. You'll probably need a flaw to get Practiced Spellcaster, Able Learner, and a metamagic feat all prior to gaining your 6th character level.

Definitely get Versatile Spellcaster in RotD, it allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. That means you can spontaneously cast low-level Wizard spells you've learned! It also lets you spend two of your highest level spontaneous spell slots to cast a spell of one level higher, thus giving you knowledge of that higher level of spells if you're using a set-list class like Beguiler or Warmage, allowing you to cast from that level of your spell list earlier than normal. It's definitely worth using a second flaw to get this at 1st level.

To finish the build after UM 10, your strongest choices are a Mindbender dip and some Paragnostic Apostle. Abjurant Champion is also pretty good if you qualify for it. There's also Incantatrix, as if your character won't be powerful enough already.

[Manateee]

Thanks for the info so far. What book is Beguiler in????
It's in the PHB2. It's like the Warmage, but instead of blasts/battlefield control, it's all about Enchantments and Illusions.


Now, if I don't specialize, what can I swap out my familiar for?

And if I do specialize....?
Conjurers are the only specialization that can get anything remotely as valuable as a familiar [or feat] from ACFs. They can get Rapid Summoning from UA, which turns summoning into a standard action and is basically required for all summoners, and Abrupt Jaunt from the PHB2, which is an Int/day "get out of attack range/spell crosshairs free" card. Most other class replacements aren't even worth a feat (I also like the Transmutation variant in the PHB2, but at higher levels, you'll have those movement options anyway).

Otherwise, the familiar is good. Really good. Especially with Beguiler at level 1. And then, even more with Able Learner to keep Beguiler class skills as class skills forever.

But if you just want to shill off your familiar regardless of Returns, Dungeonscape has a variant that lets you basically prepare 2 sets of spells every day - one that's accessible above ground/in bright light, one that's available underground/in darkness. This can help you avoid the Vancian caster's normal dilemma of having the wrong spells prepared for the circumstance (but a good rogue or divinations and a few unfilled spell slots normally let you fill this function for free - but with a bit more effort).

EDIT:
CA, page 13, last sentence on the page:
"The bonus from the warmage edge special ability applies only to spells that he casts as a warmage, not to those he might have by virtue of levels in another class."

So Warmage is even crappy in that unusual and somewhat contrived circumstance? Shame. :/

[Brock Samson]

What book is Illumen in? Races of Destiny right? We can't use anything from any books we don't have a paper copy of. What we do have is PH2/Complete Mage/Arcane/Champion/Divine/Adventurer/Scoundrel/Heroes of Battle. Alas, no Spell Compendium or Magic Item Compendium.

[JohnDaBarr]

Spell Compendium is a very good book and I suggest that you should get one, the sooner the better.

[Brock Samson]

Isn't your familiar gimped by taking a prestige class? I know at that point you just get Obtain Familiar. But if I can start by trading out my familiar for something fun, that's good.

[Manateee]

Isn't your familiar gimped by taking a prestige class? I know at that point you just get Obtain Familiar. But if I can start by trading out my familiar for something fun, that's good.
The class table of familiar abilities doesn't progress with PrCs, but that isn't important. They mostly either suck or become redundant with shared buffs.

The shared skill ranks and share spell/Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability applicability work regardless of multiclassing. Those are the parts that make the familiar amazing.

[Brock Samson]

Good point. And I guess they would continue to get half your hit points too so they're not too squishy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding Familiars, you really have three options:

If you do take a familiar, you may as well get Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) for an Imp, Quasit, or Pseudodragon (listed in order of descending usefulness). Give it a Wand of Web and it can use your UMD ranks, give it Tanglefoot Bags to throw around, and even Polymorph it into a scary combat form (Cave Troll, Kelvezu, War Troll, etc.). In this case, you may as well also spend a feat on Obtain Familiar, to count all of your levels in base classes and prestige classes which grant or advance spellcasting toward its familiar benefits.

If you don't want to get Improved Familiar, and just have a background familiar like Vaarsuvius, there's no better choice than a Hummingbird. Introduced in Dragon magazine 323 (p98), it gives you +4 Initiative and uses the stats for a Thrush familiar, detailed in the DMG. If you do get this and happen to go with an elf race for your character, get the Elf Wizard 3 substitution level in RotW and the bonus it gives you will double, for +8 initiative.

If you don't get a familiar, or if you're taking Obtain Familiar anyway, you may as well drop it for an ACF. Abrupt Jaunt for Conjurers detailed in PH2 is probably the best choice, and the Transmuter ACF from that same section is pretty useful in the lower levels. There's one in there for every specialty, or there's also a UA ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) for every specialty but those aren't so great. There's also the Animal Companion substitution (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) from UA, but it won't scale very far even with Natural Bond. If none of those look appealing, you could get the Forlorn flaw from Dragon 333, which trades it for a feat. Some inaccurate versions of that flaw elaborate by saying you can never gain a familiar at all, but all the flaw itself says is that you lose the ability to call a familiar. You can definitely take Obtain Familiar later even if you use this flaw.


For a UM, specifically an Illumian (Krau) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM, with two flaws to get Able Learner, Versatile Spellcaster, Practiced Spellcaster, and a metamagic feat in the first five levels, you'll have to get Obtain Familiar at 6th and Improved Familiar at 9th to get a useful one. Depending on your alignment, get an Imp if you're LE, LN, or NE, a Quasit if you're CE or CN, or a Pseudodragon if you're good aligned or true neutral. It's definitely worth getting one of those, but two feats is quite expensive, especially if you had your sights on something else. Reserve feats are especially good, considering that your unspent Beguiler spell slots and the possibility of using them to cast a higher level Wizard spell could keep one of those feats running all day long.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Go Conjurer 3, banning Illusion and Enchantment. Take Abrupt Jaunt (PHB II, p. 70) in exchange for your familiar.

Then, go Beguiler 1 (PHB II, p. 6), picking up all the missed Illusion/Enchantment spells (at least, from core and peripheral books).

Now, your only casting stat is INT and you're essentially a generalist with all the benefits of a specialist.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Go Conjurer 3, banning Illusion and Enchantment. Take Abrupt Jaunt (PHB II, p. 70) in exchange for your familiar.

Then, go Beguiler 1 (PHB II, p. 6), picking up all the missed Illusion/Enchantment spells (at least, from core and peripheral books).

Now, your only casting stat is INT and you're essentially a generalist with all the benefits of a specialist.

A minor note, but it's probably better to go Beguiler 1 as your first level, simply to maximize on skill points. You can make a case for going Focused Conjurer, but then you are giving up an actual school (I'm a fan of ditching Evocation or Necromancy).

Another idea is to go Changeling for race, so you can eventually get into Recaster as your capstone to wizardry. Nab some sorcerer-only spells and go nuts

[Mystify]

Definitely get Versatile Spellcaster in RotD, it allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. That means you can spontaneously cast low-level Wizard spells you've learned!
I don't think a spell being in your spellbook counts as being known.

Beguiler does seem to be the best choice for ultimate magus. Even if only because of the single casting stat.

Also, ultimate magus can pull off some persist cheese. You can only persist a 5th level spell by spending a 5th and 6th level spell slot, but thats effectively an 11th level spell.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A minor note, but it's probably better to go Beguiler 1 as your first level, simply to maximize on skill points. You can make a case for going Focused Conjurer, but then you are giving up an actual school (I'm a fan of ditching Evocation or Necromancy).

Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of level progression in terms of starting at 1, in which case Abrupt Jaunt is really good for survival. You're starting at a higher level; take Beguiler 1 first, get 8+INTx4 skills, be useful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think a spell being in your spellbook counts as being known.

Adding spells to your spellbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook) repeatedly mentions learning those spells, thus once you've learned a spell you then know that spell. I'd probably make the character flip open their spellbook and read the spell as they cast it, but that's not a huge deal unless it's during combat, plus it adds quite a bit of flavor to the character's actions.


Also, Illumians (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2). The only reason to use them is for the Krau sigil, which gives an extra +2 caster level to each of your classes that works the same way as Practiced Spellcaster, for adding 10/10 UM to Wizard.

Another option would be to go something like Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellthief 1/ UM, with the feat Master Spellthief in CS. That adds your level of spellcasting capability from each of your classes together for your caster level with each class, so you won't even need Practiced Spellcaster. Your caster levels are always equal, so you can freely add 10/10 UM to Wizard, and once you get a few UM levels you'll get some caster level stacking shenanigans. At Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellthief 1/ UM 10 your caster level will be 27 for both classes.

[Little Brother]

Go Wizard 5/UM 10 with Spontaneous Divination.

Grey Elf Domain Elven Generalist Wizard, might as well get Uncanny Forethought while you're at it.

Otherwise, Wiz/Beguiler is the best way. Still remember Uncanny Forethought.

[dextercorvia]

Go Conjurer 3, banning Illusion and Enchantment. Take Abrupt Jaunt (PHB II, p. 70) in exchange for your familiar.

Then, go Beguiler 1 (PHB II, p. 6), picking up all the missed Illusion/Enchantment spells (at least, from core and peripheral books).

Now, your only casting stat is INT and you're essentially a generalist with all the benefits of a specialist.

You also want to take Beguiler before level 3, so you can take Practiced Spellcaster for your Beguiler casting.

[Enterti]

I don't think a spell being in your spellbook counts as being known.

It does work by RAW, and provides single class wizard with a double casting level increase at each. That said its ridiculously cheesy and no sane DM will ever allow it.

[Mystify]

It does work by RAW, and provides single class wizard with a double casting level increase at each. That said its ridiculously cheesy and no sane DM will ever allow it.

I'm of the opinion that if no sane DM will ever allow it, it shouldn't be suggested to someone looking for character build advice. Tout it all you want in theoretical optimizations, don't apply it people's actual characters.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I played a wizard/warmage/UM once. He was probably my favorite character ever.

Beguiler is probably the more mechanically sound, optimized option, but having warmage on the spontaneous side is certainly fun in its own way. Blasting can often be a hoot, and combined with the metamagic jiggery-pokery of Ultimate Magus you can turn into some pretty terrifying artillery.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You also want to take Beguiler before level 3, so you can take Practiced Spellcaster for your Beguiler casting.

Actually, as Thrice Dead Cat mentioned, level 1 is probably ideal; (8+INT)x4 skill points per level is pretty hard to ignore.

I brainfarted. :smallyuk:

[dextercorvia]

Actually, as Thrice Dead Cat mentioned, level 1 is probably ideal; (8+INT)x4 skill points per level is pretty hard to ignore.

I brainfarted. :smallyuk:

Agreed. I only wanted to point out that there was another reason. It's only 6+Int, but your list is good, and your Int is Yes.

[Greenish]

I'm of the opinion that if no sane DM will ever allow it, it shouldn't be suggested to someone looking for character build advice.The thing is, the "no sane DM…" or "no DM worth his salt…" are just ways of saying "if you play the game differently from me, you're doing it wrong". :smallannoyed:

[Mystify]

The thing is, the "no sane DM…" or "no DM worth his salt…" are just ways of saying "if you play the game differently from me, you're doing it wrong". :smallannoyed:
Oh, no, I play the game like that myself. I'm jsut self-aware enough to realize that it just causes problems and ruins the fun for everyone involved, and hence not to bring it into practice.

[Tyndmyr]

The only Warmage ability that carries across to your Wizard casting is the Edge. If you only want to blast - and to blast from low levels - it might be worth your time (at level 1-2, +4 damage can be a pretty big deal). But since you're starting at level 7, that's not even going to be a point in the Warmage's favor.

Sort of true. However, you automatically know all spells on your list, which is rather handy, and a net advantage over sorc in total spells known, and has a pretty good selection. If there's going to be substantial overlap in spells known, take warmage instead of sorc. The edge and slightly higher hit die is nice, but not terribly major. Spells known is a big deal.

[Greenish]

Oh, no, I play the game like that myself. I'm jsut self-aware enough to realize that it just causes problems and ruins the fun for everyone involved, and hence not to bring it into practice.Wait, what? :smallconfused:

You play the game like that (like what?), but don't actually play the game like "that"?

[Mystify]

Wait, what? :smallconfused:

You play the game like that (like what?), but don't actually play the game like "that"?

To be more clear, I used to play the game like that, but realized how problematic it was, and now only do that type of thing is character builds that are purely theoretical.

[Greenish]

Well, my point was that just because something won't fit in all games doesn't mean it doesn't mean any game.

[Mystify]

Well, my point was that just because something won't fit in all games doesn't mean it doesn't mean any game.
You pretty much need to be in an explicitly powergaming campaign for the "spontaneously cast every spell in the game" cheese to be even remotely considerable.

[Greenish]

You pretty much need to be in an explicitly powergaming campaign for the "spontaneously cast every spell in the game" cheese to be even remotely considerable.Yes, obviously. So what?

[Mystify]

Yes, obviously. So what?

If that was the case, they would have asked for advice pertaining to that. best case, offering gamebreaking advice means it just gets ignored. a bad case is if they don't realize how game-breaking it is, and try to use it, and casue problems in their campaign. Worst case is it prompts an argument on the form :smalltongue:

[Brock Samson]

Thanks for the help so far guys. PLEASE remember that I can only use material from the book I initially listed, so Illumen and such don't fly.

That being said, Beguiler sounds decent. Do they get 9th level spells, or only 6th?

And if I threw in a level of Spellthief, I've heard of this "Master Spellthief" feat before- but WHERE is it located???

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thanks for the help so far guys. PLEASE remember that I can only use material from the book I initially listed, so Illumen and such don't fly.

That being said, Beguiler sounds decent. Do they get 9th level spells, or only 6th?

And if I threw in a level of Spellthief, I've heard of this "Master Spellthief" feat before- but WHERE is it located???




Another option would be to go something like Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellthief 1/ UM, with the feat Master Spellthief in CS.

Complete Scoundrel, there's also a handy list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) so you don't have to ask.

Beguiler does get up to 9th level spells, but with a UM build you probably won't get higher than 4th level spell slots out of it.