Is Spellcasting an EX ability?

[isotunknown]

What it says on the tin. This issue has come up in our group a number of times. The sides are split and each side points to examples of why it is right, but no one seems rational.

Can some of you explain why spellcasting either is or is not and extraordinary ability?

[NeoSeraphi]

Spellcasting is suppressed inside an antimagic field, therefore it is a supernatural, and not extraordinary ability.

[olentu]

Well let me see. Either spellcasting is not classified as extraordinary and so is not or it is classified as extraordinary and so is. However I do not really want to read every word in every 3.5 book in print so I am going to be lazy and ask what evidence is being provided in your group and move on from there.

[Alleran]

Spellcasting is suppressed inside an antimagic field, therefore it is a supernatural, and not extraordinary ability.
Is it the spellcasting that's suppressed, or the spells that spellcasting allows you to, well, cast?

[deuxhero]

What does it matter for? As mentioned above, the spells themselfs are supressed either way. Only thing I can think of is Factotum and the need to prepare/rest makes it impossible to mimic anyways.

[ShriekingDrake]

It might be better to ask: What kind of ability is spellcasting in 3.5? I haven't given this much thought, but it seems, on its face, that spellcasting is a "natural ability" as defined in the rules because it does not fall easily into one of the three categories listed as "Special Abilities" and in all the monster books, the spellcasting abilities of the creatures are not listed as EX, SU, or SP.

That said, I could easily be overlooking something.

[Slipperychicken]

Is it the spellcasting that's suppressed, or the spells that spellcasting allows you to, well, cast?

I think that since it isn't marked, it defaults to (Ex) Natural, like Familiar or Illiteracy. Spells can be cast in AMFs, it's just that they (with some exceptions) don't have an effect there.

EDIT: Yep, it's natural.

[Hirax]

From the Rules Compendium:
"EXTRAORDINARY ABILITIES
Extraordinary abilities aren’t magical, though they might break the laws of physics. These abilities can’t be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they usually don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They aren’t subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

Based on that description, it would make no sense for spellcasting to be EX.

"NATURAL ABILITIES
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature, such as a bird’s ability to fly. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. They’re rarely identified as natural—that’s assumed—and they rarely take a distinct action to use. A lion uses its claws as an attack, for instance; it doesn’t activate its claws and then attack."

From the description, it's odd to classify spellcasting as natural, but by RAW if it isn't EX or SU, it's natural.

[olentu]

I think that since it isn't marked, it defaults to (Ex), like Familiar or Illiteracy. Spells can be cast in AMFs, it's just that they (with some exceptions) don't have an effect there.

Default is natural not extraordinary.

[ericgrau]

Neither Ex, SLA or Su have somatic or verbal components. Spellcasting is not a "special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities)", it's something else.


These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component


Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic

[Mystify]

How would you classify the fighter's ability to swing a sword? Its not any of those. You are trying to apply classifications that don't make sense.

[Hirax]

How would you classify the fighter's ability to swing a sword? Its not any of those. You are trying to apply classifications that don't make sense.

It is a natural ability. Which makes perfect sense, given the text describing natural abilities.

[ShriekingDrake]

From the Rules Compendium:

"NATURAL ABILITIES
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature, such as a bird’s ability to fly. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. They’re rarely identified as natural—that’s assumed—and they rarely take a distinct action to use. A lion uses its claws as an attack, for instance; it doesn’t activate its claws and then attack."

From the description, it's odd to classify spellcasting as natural, but by RAW if it isn't EX or SU, it's natural.

Although the description doesn't seem to fit, natural ability is where it seems spellcasting has to fall.

[Jopustopin]

Although the description doesn't seem to fit, natural ability is where it seems spellcasting has to fall.

You're a wizard, Harry.

[dextercorvia]

Neither Ex, SLA or Su have somatic or verbal components. Spellcasting is not a "special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities)", it's something else.

Except that thing you linked to, has this:


Spells

Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.

Spellcasting is a natural ability, however the spells themselves are magical, and are supressed by an AMF.

[Ravens_cry]

Note there is a feat (?) that allows spell casting in an anti-magic field. Given D&D 3.X "No unless yes" basic design philosophy, it stands to reason that that means others . . .can't.

[ericgrau]

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.


Even so the subsection on spells in this section of the SRD is talking about creatures that cast like a spellcasting class can. i.e., monsters with natural spellcasting ability like dragons. I'm still not certain spells fall under any ability type. But if they do natural is the default.

[Gwendol]

It's a natural ability, unless designated otherwise. Just as sneak attack or trapfinding for the rogue.

[Necroticplague]

Spells are natural abilities, which makes sense. Spellcasting ability is simply "You can cast spells." Nothing short of level drain/stat drain can take that away from you. Even in an AMF, a wizard can still prepare their spells, they just can't cast them. A sorcerer can still rest and regain his spells, and clerics can still pray for more. They just can't use them right away.

[Boci]

MM 5 has some monsters which have the Ex ability to cast spells, but this cannot be applied to other books as it would override core. Its still valid for the monsters in that book however.

[motoko's ghost]

:confused: spells arent considered spell-like abilities? :confused:
:headasplodes:

[Mystify]

:confused: spells arent considered spell-like abilities? :confused:
:headasplodes:

No, spells aren't spell-like, they are spells.

[motoko's ghost]

No, spells aren't spell-like, they are spells.

So spells aren't like spells because they are spells?

I still think that whole concept is :headasplodes:

[Boci]

So spells aren't like spells because they are spells?

I still think that whole concept is :headasplodes:

If spells where spell-like abilities we wouldn't need the two terms. SLA do not require sonomatic, verbal, material or XP components, and they cannot be altered to counter one another as spells do. They reflect a creature's natural talent with magic.

[Gullintanni]

MM 5 has some monsters which have the Ex ability to cast spells, but this cannot be applied to other books as it would override core. Its still valid for the monsters in that book however.

Note that the Hobgoblin caster in question has an ability called Arcane Talent (Ex.) which grants it the casting ability of a 4th level Wizard or Sorcerer. I'm not really sure off the top of my head, but regardless, it's a specifically named ability rather than just "Spells" per the class feature.

As a result, Arcane Talent is a case of specific trumps general, and the rules for it, as Boci states, do not override core. I just wanted to provide some clarification for those navigating the murky waters of RAW.

[DoctorGlock]

My question is if spells are not EX/SU/SLA, why people say shapechange grants casting.

[Gullintanni]

My question is if spells are not EX/SU/SLA, why people say Shapechange grants casting.

Because people want casting. Typically the argument falls into one of two pools.

1. Spellcasting is Ex. therefore granted by Shapechange. As demonstrated, spellcasting isn't Ex. in the majority of cases. If you were to Shapechange into a Lilitu (who grants 9th level Cleric casting as an Ex. ability called Mock Divinity) or the hobgoblin discussed above, you'd get their casting. (It may be prudent to remind your players that they still have to prepare spells).

2. Spellcasting is Natural and Shapechange grants Natural abilities. This assertion is just as incorrect, but requires some work to debunk. Shapechange doesn't address Natural Abilities. It inherits that language from Polymorph. Polymorph inherits from Alter Self and Alter Self reads (re: NA):

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

The line of logic here is usually that Physical Qualities = Natural Abilities. People often cite this out of SRD:

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Therefore, Physical qualities = physical nature...and thus spellcasting is granted.

What people typically fail to realize is that Alter Self goes on to define Physical Qualities separately from Natural abilities, and nowhere in that finite list does it suggest spellcasting is one of the Natural abilities gained through the spell.

In short, all physical qualities are natural abilities, but not all natural abilities are physical qualities, even though ALL natural abilities are in some way dependent on physical nature.

[Ingus]

Spellcasting is a natural ability, however the spells themselves are magical, and are supressed by an AMF.

Pretty much this.
Because WotC really hated clarity back then (or because the autors honestly never imagined we would became such good rulelawyers), well...
They designed an ability (spellcasting) which, against all good sense, is different to cast spells.
Or, to be honest, in a certain meaning, it is.
Your intestine is the mean of producing... well, you all know :smallredface:, and it is different to its product.
So spellcasting is equally different to spells.

While spells don't work in an antimagic field, spellcasting does. So you are still able to cast spells, but the spells don't work.
This is why it has been said that, since you still have line of effect with yourself (and it is implied that spellcasting works in AMF), you can buff yourself in an AMF and when you step out of the AMF your buff would be active.

[ShriekingDrake]

Pretty much this.
Because WotC really hated clarity back then (or because the autors honestly never imagined we would became such good rulelawyers), well...

As an aside from the purpose of this thread . . . I don't think that's right. In fact, I think the contrary is true. I think the 3E game designers wanted to reward keen rules lawyering. But, like most legislative processes, they weren't able to draft the rules as well as they might have liked. They succumbed to the vagaries of life (people moving on, multiple authors, time pressure) and the typical mistakes that come with the human condition. That is, they wanted complex rules that rewarded buying books and knowing the rules. But they wrote flawed rules--some of which they recognized and others they didn't--which under the pressure of the aggregate of players were discovered, exploited, toyed with, etc. You also have to remember the 3E burgeoned at the same time as the social elements of the Internet; no one had the foresight to realize how effective the wisdom of crowds would become.

Anyway, spellcasting is a natural ability that does not get imparted through shapechange, polymorph, alter self, etc. And, given the infelicities replete in the rules, a good DM will have to make good call when she/he runs into those hiccoughs.

[olentu]

Because people want casting. Typically the argument falls into one of two pools.

1. Spellcasting is Ex. therefore granted by Shapechange. As demonstrated, spellcasting isn't Ex. in the majority of cases. If you were to Shapechange into a Lilitu (who grants 9th level Cleric casting as an Ex. ability called Mock Divinity) or the hobgoblin discussed above, you'd get their casting. (It may be prudent to remind your players that they still have to prepare spells).

2. Spellcasting is Natural and Shapechange grants Natural abilities. This assertion is just as incorrect, but requires some work to debunk. Shapechange doesn't address Natural Abilities. It inherits that language from Polymorph. Polymorph inherits from Alter Self and Alter Self reads (re: NA):

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."

The line of logic here is usually that Physical Qualities = Natural Abilities. People often cite this out of SRD:

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Therefore, Physical qualities = physical nature...and thus spellcasting is granted.

What people typically fail to realize is that Alter Self goes on to define Physical Qualities separately from Natural abilities, and nowhere in that finite list does it suggest spellcasting is one of the Natural abilities gained through the spell.

In short, all physical qualities are natural abilities, but not all natural abilities are physical qualities, even though ALL natural abilities are in some way dependent on physical nature.

Er yeah so as I recall this is the logic behind shapechange granting spellcasting.

1: Natural abilities are special abilities.
2: As per the polymorph subschool "Unless otherwise noted in the spell’s description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own..."
3: Shapechange does not address natural abilities as a whole. Since they are not addressed there is no existing rules text to overrule the above bit of text with regard to most natural abilities including spellcasting and thus they are granted.

[Gullintanni]

Er yeah so as I recall this is the logic behind shapechange granting spellcasting.

1: Natural abilities are special abilities.
2: As per the polymorph subschool "Unless otherwise noted in the spell’s description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own..."
3: Shapechange does not address natural abilities as a whole. Since they are not addressed there is no existing rules text to overrule the above bit of text with regard to most natural abilities including spellcasting and thus they are granted.

Natural abilities actually aren't special abilities though. Keep that in mind. SRD differentiates between the two.

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Special Abilities

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

[ORione]

While spells don't work in an antimagic field, spellcasting does. So you are still able to cast spells, but the spells don't work.
This is why it has been said that, since you still have line of effect with yourself (and it is implied that spellcasting works in AMF), you can buff yourself in an AMF and when you step out of the AMF your buff would be active.

So then, would you lose your spell slot if you tried to cast a spell in an AMF?

[Ingus]

So then, would you lose your spell slot if you tried to cast a spell in an AMF?

In my games, yes (I think "yes" as a general answer). If it is a self buff, it will be active once AMF will stop to affect the caster. Otherwise, line of effect is blocked, spell fail, deepest apologies

@ShriekingDrake You're sorta right and near my point of view, but the initial rant was there in a joke-like way :smallwink:

About shapechange, I don't allow it to grant spells because it grants spellcasting. Then, a player should rest and memorize spells, or pray for them, or have a way to obtain spells known in case of spontaneous spellcasting.
And because shapechange is obviously overpowered even without granting spells

[Hirax]

In my games, yes (I think "yes" as a general answer). If it is a self buff, it will be active once AMF will stop to affect the caster. Otherwise, line of effect is blocked, spell fail, deepest apologies


AMFs do not block line of effect, per the Rules Compendium:


SPELLS
Spells don’t function in an antimagic area, but an antimagic area doesn’t block line of effect. If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed. When a spell’s point of origin is located outside an antimagic area, but part of that spell’s area overlaps the antimagic area, that spell’s effect is suppressed where the two areas overlap. Time elapsed within an antimagic area still counts against a spell’s duration.

If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.) An instantaneous area spell is only entirely suppressed and effectively canceled if its point of origin is within the antimagic area. Otherwise it works like any other area spell that has a point of origin outside the antimagic area—only where its area overlaps the antimagic area is its effect is suppressed (and effectively canceled).

A wall of force, prismatic wall, or prismatic sphere isn’t affected by antimagic. Break enchantment, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic spells don’t dispel antimagic. Mordenkainen’s disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

[Ingus]

AMFs do not block line of effect, per the Rules Compendium:

It may be because it proves me wrong, it may also be because I prefer a book stuffed with spells or magic items but... I really hate that book :smalltongue:

[ShriekingDrake]

It may be because it proves me wrong, it may also be because I prefer a book stuffed with spells or magic items but... I really hate that book :smalltongue:

I should really own one. I guess it was WoTC's effort to clean up some of the messes. I have no idea why I never got my hands on one. I suppose RC is quite expensive now.

[Person_Man]

Spellcasting is an (SE) ability. (SE) stands for Sloppy Editing, which occurs whenever WotC writes something without thinking through the implications of what they've written in terms of the other rules that they've written. It is the most common form of ability.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't think antimagic field should really be used as evidence considering that antimagic field at best calls out spells by name rather than type and at worst refers to them as something separate but in addition to Su. abilities. Either way, the word for word RAW doesn't flat out say that spells are Su.

[olentu]

Natural abilities actually aren't special abilities though. Keep that in mind. SRD differentiates between the two.

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Special Abilities

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

If I am remembering the argument right I believe the relevant quote from the rules compendium section on special abilities is "Many creatures can use special abilities that aren’t magical. These abilities are classified as extraordinary or natural."

[TuggyNE]

Spellcasting is an (SE) ability. (SE) stands for Sloppy Editing, which occurs whenever WotC writes something without thinking through the implications of what they've written in terms of the other rules that they've written. It is the most common form of ability.

Hear, hear! :smallbiggrin:

WotC: can't live with them, can't live without them. Ah well.

[Gullintanni]

If I am remembering the argument right I believe the relevant quote from the rules compendium section on special abilities is "Many creatures can use special abilities that aren’t magical. These abilities are classified as extraordinary or natural."

I believe the RC also contains the SRD language somewhere within it almost verbatim. Either way, it's a nail in the coffin, so to speak, for the Shapechange grants Spellcasting premise.

[olentu]

I believe the RC also contains the SRD language somewhere within it almost verbatim. Either way, it's a nail in the coffin, so to speak, for the Shapechange grants Spellcasting premise.

Er except it is not necessarily so even if the rules compendium contains the wording you claim. If the rules compendium does not contain the wording you claim then special abilities can be natural abilities and spells are thus granted by shapechange as they are natural abilities (assuming of course that you take the rules compendium to mean anything). If the rules compendium does contain the wording you claim and the wording you claim is in such a section that it can overrule the section on special abilities then it depends. Since the spells special ability can not not be natural (since no special ability can be natural) then spells are not granted if and only if the spells special ability is spell like. If the spells special ability is either extraordinary or supernatural then it is granted (and of course that means that planar shepherds get spells for things of their plane).

So it is hardly a sure thing even if it does exist as a DM ruling is very much not a sure thing.

[Gullintanni]

*sigh*

From SRD:

On the page entitled Special Abilities:

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Special Abilities
A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

This establishes two categories; namely Natural Abilites and Special Abilities. Two distinct categories.

A Natural Ability is any item that doesn't belong to the Special Abilities category; and, per the entry above, a Natural Ability is any one that is not designated Ex., Su., or Sp.

What that means is that if an ability or class feature is not labelled Ex, Su, or Sp, it is NOT a Special Ability, it is a Natural Ability. Open up your PHB, take a look at any spellcaster and look at the entry Spells in their description of class features. Is it labelled Ex, Su or Sp? No. Therefore, Spells are a Natural Ability.

What does that mean in context of Shapechange? Shapechange says you gain Su and Ex abilities (so you don't gain spellcasting), and otherwise behaves like Polymorph. Polymorph tells you that it behaves like Alter Self.

As I mentioned earlier, Alter Self grants you physical properties of the creature. Some of those physical properties are in fact Natural Abilities. This doesn't mean that Alter Self grants you ALL Natural Abilities. It, in fact, goes on to list which Natural Abilities you gain. Spellcasting isn't one of them.

Per rulebook errata;

PHB is the primary source for Natural Abilities.
Rules Compendium is the primary source for Game Rules.

This could create ambiguity, except that in this case the RC agrees with the PHB, and supports the definition above.

[olentu]

*sigh*

From SRD:

On the page entitled Special Abilities:

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Special Abilities
A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

This establishes two categories; namely Natural Abilites and Special Abilities. Two distinct categories.

A Natural Ability is any item that doesn't belong to the Special Abilities category; and, per the entry above, a Natural Ability is any one that is not designated Ex., Su., or Sp.

What that means is that if an ability or class feature is not labelled Ex, Su, or Sp, it is NOT a Special Ability, it is a Natural Ability. Open up your PHB, take a look at any spellcaster and look at the entry Spells in their description of class features. Is it labelled Ex, Su or Sp? No. Therefore, Spells are a Natural Ability.

What does that mean in context of Shapechange? Shapechange says you gain Su and Ex abilities (so you don't gain spellcasting), and otherwise behaves like Polymorph. Polymorph tells you that it behaves like Alter Self.

As I mentioned earlier, Alter Self grants you physical properties of the creature. Some of those physical properties are in fact Natural Abilities. This doesn't mean that Alter Self grants you ALL Natural Abilities. It, in fact, goes on to list which Natural Abilities you gain. Spellcasting isn't one of them.

Per rulebook errata;

PHB is the primary source for Natural Abilities.
Rules Compendium is the primary source for Game Rules.

This could create ambiguity, except that in this case the RC agrees with the PHB, and supports the definition above.

Ah so you are arguing that spell are not special abilities at all. Not what I would have expected. Since that means that shapechange grants spells since spells are a statistic which is granted by all polymorph spells and as they are not special abilities they are not specifically not granted like spell like abilities are.

[Gullintanni]

Ah so you are arguing that spell are not special abilities at all. Not what I would have expected. Since that means that shapechange grants spells since spells are a statistic which is granted by all polymorph spells and as they are not special abilities they are not specifically not granted like spell like abilities are.

No...Shapechange doesn't grant everything that isn't spell-like. That's not how it works. Here's the actual text:

Shapechange:
"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
Focus

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)"

Relevant portions bolded. I challenge to you to find any text in the spell's wording that suggests you gain the Natural Abilities of the assumed form. It, in fact, says nothing about Natural Abilities. What it does say is Shapechange acts like Polymorph. Actual text of Polymorph:

Polymorph:

"This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action."

Bolded text for relevance. You gain some Ex. attacks and qualities. Once again, no mention of Natural Abilities. But, what we're told is that the spell behaves like Alter Self, so we have to look at the text for Alter Self:

Alter Self:
"You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. "

Bolded text for relevance. Finally, something that mentions physical qualities. Alter Self lists off which physical qualities you gain. Note that it does not indicate that you gain ANY Natural Abilities, just a collection of physical qualities which, because they're unlabelled as Ex, Su or Sp, are in fact Natural. You gain the ones listed, and that's it. This wording carries over into Polymorph and Shapechange, so when Shapechanged, you gain all the physical qualities (not Natural Abilities).

[olentu]

No...Shapechange doesn't grant everything that isn't spell-like. That's not how it works. Here's the actual text:

Shapechange:
"This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
Focus

A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)"

Relevant portions bolded. I challenge to you to find any text in the spell's wording that suggests you gain the Natural Abilities of the assumed form. It, in fact, says nothing about Natural Abilities. What it does say is Shapechange acts like Polymorph. Actual text of Polymorph:

Polymorph:

"This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action."

Bolded text for relevance. You gain some Ex. attacks and qualities. Once again, no mention of Natural Abilities. But, what we're told is that the spell behaves like Alter Self, so we have to look at the text for Alter Self:

Alter Self:
"You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. "

Bolded text for relevance. Finally, something that mentions physical qualities. Alter Self lists off which physical qualities you gain. Note that it does not indicate that you gain ANY Natural Abilities, just a collection of physical qualities which, because they're unlabelled as Ex, Su or Sp, are in fact Natural. You gain the ones listed, and that's it. This wording carries over into Polymorph and Shapechange, so when Shapechanged, you gain all the physical qualities (not Natural Abilities).

Polymorph subschool, your best be would be arguing that the in place of their own is overridden by retaining spellcasting.

[Gullintanni]

Polymorph subschool, your best be would be arguing that the in place of their own is overridden by retaining spellcasting.

What about the Polymorph subschool? It states that, "...Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form..."

Bolded for emphasis. Alter self, Polymorph and Shapechange all tell you, categorically, what you gain and do not gain when under their effects, and therefore trigger the bolded clause above. The spell's description categorically lists what you get. The rest, you don't.

[olentu]

What about the Polymorph subschool? It states that, "...Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form..."

Bolded for emphasis. Alter self, Polymorph and Shapechange all tell you, categorically, what you gain and do not gain when under their effects, and therefore trigger the bolded clause above. The spell's description categorically lists what you get. The rest, you don't.

As far as I can see they really don't. They tell you some things you gain and some things you do not gain but I can not find any blanket prohibition against gaining or loosing statistics (or even any use of the word at all).

Like I said, you would be best off going with the retain spellcasting argument. It really does seem like your best shot.

[Gullintanni]

The Rules Compendium has stronger language, page 123:

Polymorph Subschool and Preexisting Spells: Any
spell based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered
to have the polymorph subschool. However, a spell’s
existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

I read this to mean that Alter Self takes on the Polymorph subschool, but the way it operates is unchanged. What that means, once again, is that Alter Self, and therefore Polymorph and subsequently Shapechange do not automatically grant you the Natural Abilities, and subsequently the spellcasting, of the form you assume.

It's all there for you.


As far as I can see they really don't. They tell you some things you gain and some things you do not gain but I can not find any blanket prohibition against gaining or loosing statistics (or even any use of the word at all).

Like I said, you would be best off going with the retain spellcasting argument. It really does seem like your best shot.

I'm not sure what you're saying with the latter half. You always retain your own spellcasting.

[olentu]

The Rules Compendium has stronger language, page 123:

Polymorph Subschool and Preexisting Spells: Any
spell based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered
to have the polymorph subschool. However, a spell’s
existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

I read this to mean that Alter Self takes on the Polymorph subschool, but the way it operates is unchanged. What that means, once again, is that Alter Self, and therefore Polymorph and subsequently Shapechange do not automatically grant you the Natural Abilities, and subsequently the spellcasting, of the form you assume.

It's all there for you.



I'm not sure what you're saying with the latter half. You always retain your own spellcasting.

See here is the thing a lack of rules is not actually a rule. Alter self does overrule that sentence in some cases (such as not granting spell like abilities). But just because there are some specific cases where the spell deviates from the general that does not mean you can generalize it to every case. The existing rules can only take priority where there are actually existing rules and they do not say that they apply to all statistics. So while you could make a case for some specific section of alter self taking precedence you are not actually doing that and it would seem are instead trying to generalize from the specifics.

As to the second, I am saying that if you are going to argue that said line of spells does not grant spellcasting I would suggesting using the following argument instead of trying to make a specific rule into a general rule. Alter self says that you retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form. If you look at the exceptions listed after the rule about gaining all statistics of the assumed forms you can see that they are phrased in a similar way. So the argument would be that instead of a general prohibition on all statistics you would argue that due to the similar phrasing alter self is actually specifically saying that you don't gain spellcasting. Now I won't say that everyone will find this airtight as unlike the listed exceptions not every creature has spellcasting. Also I suppose one could say spellcasting ability is not spells but that seems somewhat iffy as the class feature is called spells.