Damage per Level

[Tvtyrant]

What is the baseline of damage per level as a DPR type? Is the goal to kill something in each full action (which puts you at something like 100-200 damage at level 10)?

[Ziegander]

DPR by Level is a VERY nebulous concept in D&D 3.5, unfortunately. Your average CR 1 critter has around 15hp and your average CR 20 critter has around 250hp, so something like 7 per level per round is surprisingly decent.

But can you provide more information? Your question is really general, so I gave you a very general answer.

[Tvtyrant]

I was working on a homebrew class that does...stuff. The part where damage came up was when I wanted to give it the ability to channel negative energy damage through its attacks, but I wasn't sure what rate the damage should go up at. I was thinking about 150 damage on a full attack at level 20, but I wasn't sure if this was going to be too little.

That would be like an Inflict Critical Wounds applied across all of the attacks.

[NeoSeraphi]

Considering that 15th level clerics deal 150 damage with a standard action (harm) I think you might be a little low there. Then again, your ability is presumably used at-will (not that that really makes it any better than spellcasting at 20th level)

[Seerow]

I was working on a homebrew class that does...stuff. The part where damage came up was when I wanted to give it the ability to channel negative energy damage through its attacks, but I wasn't sure what rate the damage should go up at. I was thinking about 150 damage on a full attack at level 20, but I wasn't sure if this was going to be too little.

That would be like an Inflict Critical Wounds applied across all of the attacks.

Around 150 damage as a standard action is probably what you want to aim for. A little higher won't hurt. If you're looking at damage from a full attack, make sure to account for miss chances of iteratives, and still probably double the damage, because you're giving up all mobility to use it.

[FMArthur]

It depends on the group, but generally the starting point is that anything you'd be able to call "high damage" should be doing at least a d6/level in a round, which would be 3.5 damage per level. That's the starting point and isn't actually enough to kill stuff right away. It's just what a spellcaster is doing on a successful damage attack by expending their daily resources. If someone focused exclusively on damage isn't doing at least that then they are underperforming.

If we're talking melee... Ideally, a character whose only use in combat is to murder single targets at close range should be able to outright kill a creature with a CR of their level minus 1~2 in a single round. It's not always easy because weapon damage is finnicky to sqeeze proper scaling damage out of. Being able to reliably do that to equal-CR creatures is enough for me to compliment a well-made melee "DPS" character, but some groups won't like it and some DMs will try to adjust encounters to have higher HP.

[Mystify]

Taking a rouge's progression alone:

1d6/per levels /attack

assuming dual-weilding:

1 7
2 7
3 14
4 14
5 21
6 21
7 28
8 46
9 60
10 60
11 74
12 74
13 88
14 88
15 174
16 174
17 195
18 195
19 216
20 216

That is assuming all attacks hit, and is only the damage. So, if your special ability does something similar for its total damage boost, then it is comparable to a rouge's sneak attack. You have to consider accuracy, but if you are spreading the damage out across several iterative attacks, then it should have a similar drop-off. Also, sneak attack is designed for a 3/4 BaB, so if the class has a full BaB the attack should probably be somewhat weaker.
This is also post-dual wielding, so if the ability is capable of mixing effectively with dual weilding, you should lower the damage correspondingly. You don't need 400+ extra damage per round because you are dual-weilding, that is putting the class in ubercharger territory.

[Tvtyrant]

Well I was trying for a little...Lower than a Cleric. And Harm is subject to both a save and spell resistance.

Maybe I should give a quick explanation: The Spectral Blade picks an SLA every odd level. These SLAs can be used each a number of times a day equal to its Charisma modifier, but never twice in a row. The class is designed to act a mobile-melee type, with a lot of swift action buffs like Pounce, Dimension Hop, Swift Fly, etc.

The problem is I need to find a good baseline for damage, so I can make the additional damage its swift actions give it stay within the bounds of reason. Channeling ICW might be too little, but channeling Harm through all its attacks risks madness.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, we need to know its BAB so we can know how many attacks per round we're talking here. Seerow's right, around 150 damage with a standard action is pretty good for 20th level, and it should have the potential to be close to double that in a full-round (by potential, I mean in the unlikely event that all your attacks hit).

If you're channeling energy damage, then you have the right to make it high, since energy damage can be resisted or ignored (or even healed, if it's negative energy).

If you want the class's damage to be lower than a cleric's, for...whatever reason...then I suggest perhaps adding 50 pure damage to each attack. If he has full BAB, then that's 200 damage if he hits every time, plus whatever damage he's doing as a melee character. It may not be as high as it could be, but it's got consistency and you won't get RNG-screwed. (Plus since it's just extra damage and not extra damage dice, you can multiply it on a critical hit. Nice)

Then give the guy the ability to channel harm as a standard action. Problem solved.

[Seerow]

Well I was trying for a little...Lower than a Cleric. And Harm is subject to both a save and spell resistance.

Maybe I should give a quick explanation: The Spectral Blade picks an SLA every odd level. These SLAs can be used each a number of times a day equal to its Charisma modifier, but never twice in a row. The class is designed to act a mobile-melee type, with a lot of swift action buffs like Pounce, Dimension Hop, Swift Fly, etc.

The problem is I need to find a good baseline for damage, so I can make the additional damage its swift actions give it stay within the bounds of reason. Channeling ICW might be too little, but channeling Harm through all its attacks risks madness.

So you're looking at basically a duskblade channeling cleric spells?

You're right that channeling harm would be ridiculous, unless it was only on a single strike rather than every strike of a full attack (in which case it's fine).

Assuming your channeling applies to a full attack, I'd probably go with inflict serious wounds. That's 4d8+20, average of 38, just slightly higher than a rogue's 35. It has the upside that it's more widely applicable, the downside that it's a (presumably) daily resource.

Actually if you use the cure progression, it might be relatively balanced. Say you upgrade to the next cure every 5 levels, you have:

1-1d8+1 (5.5) [rogue 3.5]
2-1d8+2 (6.5)
3-1d8+3 (7.5) [rogue 7]
4-1d8+4 (8.5)
5-2d8+5 (14) [rogue 10.5]
6-2d8+6 (15)
7-2d8+7 (16) [rogue 14]
8-2d8+8 (17)
9-2d8+9 (18) [rogue 17.5]
10-3d8+10 (23.5)
11-3d8+11 (24.5) [rogue 21]
12-3d8+12 (25.5)
13-3d8+13 (26.5) [rogue 24.5]
14-3d8+14 (27.5)
15-4d8+15 (33) [rogue 28]
16-4d8+16 (34)
17-4d8+17 (35) [rogue 31.5]
18-4d8+18 (36)
19-4d8+19 (37) [rogue 35]
20-4d8+20 (38)



It's limited use vs at will, but more widely applicable, and easier to get off. Also since it has a flat damage modifier, if you crit with it the damage will be bigger.



This all of course assumes that TWFing is a viable option for this class. If you can only imbue one weapon or something like that, you'll want to have something with bigger numbers you can imbue, or have the imbue be at will, or both.

[Tvtyrant]

Thank you all! I think I am going to make it a 2 damage increase a level (40 a hit on a full attack at level 20) and 8 damage a level as a standard (160 for 1 hit). That makes TWF viable, but encourages movement.

[Ziegander]

Thank you all! I think I am going to make it a 2 damage increase a level (40 a hit on a full attack at level 20) and 8 damage a level as a standard (160 for 1 hit). That makes TWF viable, but encourages movement.

Would that be something like, "as a swift action, imbue your weapon with negative energy, dealing an extra 2 negative energy damage with each successful weapon attack for 1 round," and "as a standard action, make a single melee weapon attack and deal an extra 8 negative energy damage if that attack hits?"

Also, would both of these be at-will, or is there some sort of limitation?

[ericgrau]

A while back I figured this out at levels 5 and 15 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9290443&postcount=64) and in each case it took about 2-3/4 rounds (with the first round as a single attack I think) to drop a foe. So... get the monster HP table (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9556126&postcount=5) and divide by 2-3/4. Then round the numbers into some kind of progression with a better pattern.

That's core though, so compared to splatbooks you may need a slight bost. And that's damage per round not damage per hit. You need to increase it by the % you expect to miss. Also to consider is at-will vs. a limited spell vs. other class abilities. More versatile classes should do less damage, though 1/day abilities might do a little more. Though if you have 5 different powerful 1/day abilities it might as well be at will if they're equally powerful, even if not all of them deal direct damage.

[Tvtyrant]

Would that be something like, "as a swift action, imbue your weapon with negative energy, dealing an extra 2 negative energy damage with each successful weapon attack for 1 round," and "as a standard action, make a single melee weapon attack and deal an extra 8 negative energy damage if that attack hits?"

Also, would both of these be at-will, or is there some sort of limitation?

That was what I was thinking, except have the negative energy one be a buff that lasts 4 rounds or something, and the standard action one be a single standard action. And both would be running off of the "charisma modifier times a day" mechanic. The reason for the full attack one to be a buff is because otherwise you couldn't combine it with the various swift actions the class normally runs off of.

Unless I make using the one be a full round action rather than be a buff, so "you imbue your weapons as part of a full round action. You can make a number of attacks as dictated by your BaB" or something like that. Then you can get a swift action teleport off and then full attack, or swift fly, move, standard action Harm attack.