Surgeon (Combination Alchemist Archetype)

[ExemplarofAvg]

So would combining Chiurgeon (The Healing Alchemist) and the Vivisectionist (The Stabbing Alchemist) give the right flavour for a character like Jack the Ripper, someone who can heal but can deal extra damage to foes because they know where the vital organs are? Would probably Max: Bluff, Heal, Perception, Professon (Surgeon, might be worth some in game fluff points or what not) and Sleight of Hand. Also any reasons that Sneak Stab couldn't be used in place of the regular Sneak Attack because Surgeons would be better with the more precise tools and what not (I know DM Dependant, but just looking for opinion)

Here's just a shortish write up I'm sending the DM, if he approves it I'm going to be playing a CE Surgeon, so I figured a write up might help him understand the character idea.

You slowly regain consciousness, you can't remember what knocked you out, the last thing you remember was finding the nearest healers to remove a necrotic cyst that had been placed within you, a few quick glances around the room tell you you're not in any normal physicians office, bottles of strange items litter the walls and odd smells are coming from various pots around the room. The Door swings open and in comes a doctor, he clucks his tongue as he looks over some paper "Hmm, so you have a Cyst, mighty nasty bit of stuff, not sure how well it will work to just have it removed, but I suppose it's the best I can do under the circumstances... hmm, I might need to take my medicine first, steady my nerves, is that okay with you?" he asks, he's young but has a knowledgable look about him, you nod in affirming that this is ok. "Thank you, it should only take a moment", he sets the papers down on the desk next to one of the bubbling pots and begins rifling through his pockets, "Can't seem to find it, I Promise I'll try not to keep you long, now where did I put it" he begins pulling odd plants, bits of parchment and the occasional instrument from his pockets, until he produces a tiny vial "Ah, yes, here it is" he unscrews the cork and holds it aloft "Bottoms Up" no sooner does the liquid touch his lips does he start to shudder, his skins seems to be bubbling underneath, after a short time he ceases convulsing and stands straight, he seems to be more angular and pointed than before, and there's something slightly unnerving about him, he picks up a scalpel off of the desk, runs it through a flame under one of the pots until it is red hot. The madman in the lab coat begins to chuckle eerily, bursting out in small cackling fits as he approaches you slowly. "Now, then, let's see if we can remove what's inside you" You're body freezes and then you feel that you should be running, it's only then you notice the leather clasps on your hands and feet, along with the lack of windows. No one hears your screams from the dungeon, no one that can save you anyway.

[Psyren]

The minute I noticed those two archetypes could be combined I was all over this concept :smallsmile: Hope it works out for you.

(Mine wasn't as evil though)

[grarrrg]

I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell every Vivisectionist.

Grow 2 extra arms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex), and a tentacle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/tentacle-ex).
Take the feat Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat), you only need 13 Dex, so load up on the Str!
Make TONS of Sneak Attacks.

[Bhaakon]

I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell every Vivisectionist.

Grow 2 extra arms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex), and a tentacle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/tentacle-ex).
Take the feat Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat), you only need 13 Dex, so load up on the Str!
Make TONS of Sneak Attacks.

Doesn't work. The extra limbs explicitly can not be used to increase your number of attacks.

[grarrrg]

Doesn't work. The extra limbs explicitly can not be used to increase your number of attacks.

:smallsigh: Edited for clarity, the part in bold is mine.


Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso.....The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms

The arm "explicitly" does not give "inherent" extra attacks, but it CAN be use to MAKE extra attacks.
And, by the game rules themselves, it should say Multiweapon Fighting instead of Two-Weapon:

Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

As for the Tentacle (again, edit/bolded)

Benefit: The alchemist gains a prehensile, arm-length tentacle on his body......The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though he can use it to make a tentacle attack (1d4 damage for a Medium alchemist, 1d3 damage for a Small one) with the grab ability. The tentacle can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms can....

[hiryuu]

No.

It's pretty explicit.

See that part where it says it doesn't give any extra attacks per round that you'd normally get? That's the part that's important. You can attack with the extra limbs. Just not extra times. So let's say you get two attacks per round (per two weapon fighting) and you grow two extra arms with that ability. You don't get two more attacks. You just get two more arms. You can hold four weapons, but you get two attacks. You can hold something that takes two hands to hold. And also get two attacks. You're going to always be sitting at those two attacks, unless you get more somehow, such as with your base attack bonus.

To put it another way, what part of


The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round

or


The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round

are you looking at?

[Bhaakon]

Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me: You can use your extra limb to make an attack in place of an original limb, but not to gain additional attacks.

[Crasical]

You could also pick up the bottled Ooze discovery for a flank buddy?

[Bhaakon]

You could also pick up the bottled Ooze discovery for a flank buddy?

Yeah, but you can't control the ooze.

[SamBurke]

No.

It's pretty explicit.

See that part where it says it doesn't give any extra attacks per round that you'd normally get? That's the part that's important. You can attack with the extra limbs. Just not extra times. So let's say you get two attacks per round (per two weapon fighting) and you grow two extra arms with that ability. You don't get two more attacks. You just get two more arms. You can hold four weapons, but you get two attacks. You can hold something that takes two hands to hold. And also get two attacks. You're going to always be sitting at those two attacks, unless you get more somehow, such as with your base attack bonus.

To put it another way, what part of



or



are you looking at?

*facepalm*

I point you back to his statement.

"gaining extra attacks" is still bypassed. I'd let it in as a DM, it's pretty explicit in the text he quoted that it's OK.

[Bhaakon]

I point you back to his statement.

"gaining extra attacks" is still bypassed. I'd let it in as a DM, it's pretty explicit in the text he quoted that it's OK.

No, it's not clear at all. In the battle of explicit prohibition vs. unclear loophole, I generally fall on the side of explicit prohibition.

Besides:


Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.

All the feat does is reduce the penalties for off-hand weapons, not grant extra attacks. The feat assumes the creature can already attack with all three hands simultaneously (hence the description of multiple off-hand attacks in the "normal" section), but an alchemist with a vestigial arm or tentacle can not.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The minute I noticed those two archetypes could be combined I was all over this concept :smallsmile: Hope it works out for you.

(Mine wasn't as evil though)

Yeah, I may or may not have had a little squeal of joy. And it's alright, it's not for everyone.


And to everyone else, I'm not having more than two arms.

The Discoveries I plan to take are:
Infusion- Let other people use the extracts I make
Spontaneous Healing- I am a Surgeon/Doctor after all, I can patch myself up.
Healing Touch: Doc-Tor. Nuff said, lemme look at that flesh wound.
Preserve Organs: I'd rather you not stab anything through my kidney's, thanks.
Mummification: Immune to Cold, Non-lethal damage, paralysis and sleep.

[ExemplarofAvg]

You could also pick up the bottled Ooze discovery for a flank buddy?

There's the problem as noted by Bhaakon about lack of control (still might be neat to drop an ooze on some unsuspecting townsfolk, just to see what happens) But my Flank Buddy is our Warforged Paladin, or his mount.

[grarrrg]

I am still in favor of "Arm = Attacks". After doing more research (paizo message boards for one), I better understand the problem.

Intent (RAI): The Arm should never, in any way possible, be used to making extra attacks, or for doing anything other than holding something.

Actual (RAW): GIANT glaring loophole with that line about "can be used for attacks".


(standard player reasoning)
I have 2 arms. I can make 2 attacks.
I have extra arms, the extra arms can be used to make attacks.
I have 4 arms. I can make 2 attacks.
Wait, what!?

It occurs to me that the Vesitgal Arm/Attack problem could have been prevented with a few simple words completely different sentence.

"While Vestigal Arms can hold weapons, they lack the [muscles? dexterity?] to use them."

Done. End of story.

Instead, they decided to word it in a very ambiguous way, that implies things that were, apparently, never implied.



My, personal, ruling is that it CAN be used to hold weapons. This is mainly due to the MASSIVE gap in 'wording' between what was actually written, and what was (supposedly) intended.


The Tentacle merely compounds the problem.

[Chained Birds]

The Discoveries I plan to take are:
Infusion- Let other people use the extracts I make
Spontaneous Healing- I am a Surgeon/Doctor after all, I can patch myself up.
Healing Touch: Doc-Tor. Nuff said, lemme look at that flesh wound.
Preserve Organs: I'd rather you not stab anything through my kidney's, thanks.
Mummification: Immune to Cold, Non-lethal damage, paralysis and sleep.

You do naturally gain the bolded discovery from one of your archetypes (only with curative extracts, but still) so you could take a different one. Enhance potion is a more bang for your buck sort of thing that allows you to take a caster level 1 potion, and convert it to caster level X where X is your level.

Though, if you simply want to convey you other extracts onto others, take the Brew Potion feat.

[Cieyrin]

Though, if you simply want to convey you other extracts onto others, take the Brew Potion feat.

Neither Chirurgeon or Vivisectionist get rid of Brew Potion from the Alchemist build by default, so they don't need to select it again, they already have it at level 1. Plus, potions cap at 3rd level still, while infusions can be up to 6th and don't cost the alchemist anything to make other than time and forethought.

[Need_A_Life]

So your mutagen is presumably -2 Wis, +2 Dex? I'd put Weapon Finesse on this character, as you're a lightly armoured character to begin with and should really be using poisons more than brute strength to begin with.

If your GM is allowing, I'd try to see if I could get the Animate Dead line from the Reanimator archetype for extra creepiness, although it's probably suboptimal for the build anyway.

The idea is great and I've played one with great pleasure. Half-Orc ferocity and the Quick Drinker trait are really great to help you survive, letting you trigger healing, 5ft.-step, drink an infusion and potentially even a potion if you feel you need it.
Elf wouldn't be out of the question either. Despite my hate-on for elves, you'll get proficiency with bows, which will help you stay out of melee, while still dealing sneak attack damage. +2 to both of your most important stats is great, although a penalty to Con is always bad.

If I ever get into a Pathfinder Eberron campaign, I'm definitely using this combo again.

[ExemplarofAvg]

So your mutagen is presumably -2 Wis, +2 Dex? I'd put Weapon Finesse on this character, as you're a lightly armoured character to begin with and should really be using poisons more than brute strength to begin with.

If your GM is allowing, I'd try to see if I could get the Animate Dead line from the Reanimator archetype for extra creepiness, although it's probably suboptimal for the build anyway.

The idea is great and I've played one with great pleasure. Half-Orc ferocity and the Quick Drinker trait are really great to help you survive, letting you trigger healing, 5ft.-step, drink an infusion and potentially even a potion if you feel you need it.
Elf wouldn't be out of the question either. Despite my hate-on for elves, you'll get proficiency with bows, which will help you stay out of melee, while still dealing sneak attack damage. +2 to both of your most important stats is great, although a penalty to Con is always bad.

If I ever get into a Pathfinder Eberron campaign, I'm definitely using this combo again.

Naturally for both the Mutagen and the Feat, however probably won't use poisons that often.

That and it conflicts with the Sneak Stab which my DM agreed to and it now applies to all Light Slashing or Piercing Weapons in our group. (Always thought it should anyway)

As much as I love Half-Orcs, (My first character was one, so they have a special place in my heart, second was a Half-Elf so I suppose all Half-Races in general) But I'm rolling with Human (You can never go wrong with Human)

[legomaster00156]

Wait, Chaotic Evil Surgeon? Get your DM to approve a custom item which can heal a nearby ally for a miniscule amount as a swift action. Enjoy playing The Medic. :smallcool:

[NNescio]

Wait, Chaotic Evil Surgeon? Get your DM to approve a custom item which can heal a nearby ally for a miniscule amount as a swift action. Enjoy playing The Medic. :smallcool:

Great, now we have to find out how to implement the ÜberCharge. And I'm not talking about the charger build. :smallcool:

[legomaster00156]

Great, now we have to find out how to implement the ÜberCharge. And I'm not talking about the charger build. :smallcool:
Contingent buff?

[IthroZada]

Great, now we have to find out how to implement the ÜberCharge. And I'm not talking about the charger build. :smallcool:

Material Component: Mega baboon heart.

In case anyone doesn't get it:
Meet the Medic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lSzUMBJnc)

[ExemplarofAvg]

Yeah, Between Healing Touch and Cure Elixirs. Well TF2 people, be happy I've achieved it without even trying. As far as Baboon Hearts, I'll work on it.

[Curious]

Here's some advice:

Get some method of free movement such as Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate), through the experimental spellcaster feat. Then, acquire Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) and Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final). This lets you attack a shaken enemy as if they were flat-footed. So, combined with Accelerate, you can move and full-sneak-attack, as well as intimidate your enemy. Be warned, this combo is ineffective against mindless enemies.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Here's some advice:

Get some method of free movement such as Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate), through the experimental spellcaster feat. Then, acquire Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) and Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final). This lets you attack a shaken enemy as if they were flat-footed. So, combined with Accelerate, you can move and full-sneak-attack, as well as intimidate your enemy. Be warned, this combo is ineffective against mindless enemies.

Yeah, but it's so feat intensive. And I have a few ideas for feats already. Plus Leaving mutilated corpses isn't my thing. I'm looking for ways to increase this guys CMB, because I roleplay well tripping them prone, then grappling them, well that's when the scalpel comes out and I freak out the rest of the people at the table. I playtested this character with the Club here and I got into a position like that (Once) and after I was done what was an immpromptu moments notice maniacal monologue about how the character I had pinned reminded the surgeon of a spider he caught once when he was little and how he ripped it's legs of, and then blinded it, and how the person was going to wish they were the spider. Well, I got some looks, I'm not sure I'm going to be allowed back, but the friends I play with know that I took drama have an interest in psychology and can adopt another persona with very little effort, well they might only cry a little. instead of "For god's sake let him up" (about a fictional mook mind you)

[Chained Birds]

Yeah, but it's so feat intensive. And I have a few ideas for feats already. Plus Leaving mutilated corpses isn't my thing. I'm looking for ways to increase this guys CMB, because I roleplay well tripping them prone, then grappling them, well that's when the scalpel comes out and I freak out the rest of the people at the table. I playtested this character with the Club here and I got into a position like that (Once) and after I was done what was an immpromptu moments notice maniacal monologue about how the character I had pinned reminded the surgeon of a spider he caught once when he was little and how he ripped it's legs of, and then blinded it, and how the person was going to wish they were the spider. Well, I got some looks, I'm not sure I'm going to be allowed back, but the friends I play with know that I took drama have an interest in psychology and can adopt another persona with very little effort, well they might only cry a little. instead of "For god's sake let him up" (about a fictional mook mind you)

Thumbs-Up to staying in character to the disgust of everyone around you IC and OOC. :smallbiggrin:

[ExemplarofAvg]

Thumbs-Up to staying in character to the disgust of everyone around you IC and OOC. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks, to be honest I even freaked myself out a little. It made the flavour piece I posted here look like a happy story.

[Cieyrin]

Thanks, to be honest I even freaked myself out a little. It made the flavour piece I posted here look like a happy story.

The only flaw with this strategy I see is that neither being Prone or Grappled would enable Sneak Attack via Vivisectionist, as the target isn't denied their Dex or flanked. Not unless there's some feat out there that allows Sneak Attack on such, like the old Savage Grapple feat.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The only flaw with this strategy I see is that neither being Prone or Grappled would enable Sneak Attack via Vivisectionist, as the target isn't denied their Dex or flanked. Not unless there's some feat out there that allows Sneak Attack on such, like the old Savage Grapple feat.

Oh, I know, but of you have a character pinned well enough and can maintain the pin you can attack, and talk, and if there's anything worse than the pain of slowly having parts of you removed, then it's having it explained to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_keWS1i3RA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6l5-Rup-D4

It's well recorded. Knowing how you will end and not being able to change it. It's not a mechanical advantage. I've managed to cause the DM to just stop making checks, the other players will stop rolling, my character will take rounds upon rounds talking to the victim. Never forget how powerful fear is, even if their immune to mind-affecting abilities. Having someone remove your eyelids will scare you. My character left a combination of both scenes. Something which DnD can't describe, The victim was conscious and alert he had no eyelids, no lips, no tongue, his tendons were sliced, images traced into his body of various things unknown that existed only inside his attackers head, images in his mind that no one could imagine. His Vocal chords cut, but his throat patched up, holding back a scream that would never come out, his tear glands were damaged never to spill a drop for joy, sorrow or fear. He was broken.

Don't let your characters talk on autopilot, roleplay, sometimes it's not just enough to send the Big Bad to Jail, you need to leave an impression, so that he won't ever do anything again. Unfortunately for this guy he wasn't strong, he was a leader of many, but physically weak and went for the physically weakest character too, pity the magus would've made it quick and painless, the Paladin would've taken him to jail. The Scientist removed his will to live.

[legomaster00156]

Oh, I know, but of you have a character pinned well enough and can maintain the pin you can attack, and talk, and if there's anything worse than the pain of slowly having parts of you removed, then it's having it explained to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_keWS1i3RA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6l5-Rup-D4

It's well recorded. Knowing how you will end and not being able to change it. It's not a mechanical advantage. I've managed to cause the DM to just stop making checks, the other players will stop rolling, my character will take rounds upon rounds talking to the victim. Never forget how powerful fear is, even if their immune to mind-affecting abilities. Having someone remove your eyelids will scare you. My character left a combination of both scenes. Something which DnD can't describe, The victim was conscious and alert he had no eyelids, no lips, no tongue, his tendons were sliced, images traced into his body of various things unknown that existed only inside his attackers head, images in his mind that no one could imagine. His Vocal chords cut, but his throat patched up, holding back a scream that would never come out, his tear glands were damaged never to spill a drop for joy, sorrow or fear. He was broken.

Don't let your characters talk on autopilot, roleplay, sometimes it's not just enough to send the Big Bad to Jail, you need to leave an impression, so that he won't ever do anything again. Unfortunately for this guy he wasn't strong, he was a leader of many, but physically weak and went for the physically weakest character too, pity the magus would've made it quick and painless, the Paladin would've taken him to jail. The Scientist removed his will to live.
Being Chaotic Evil, you will attract attention from Paladins. One of their primary abilities is immunity to fear. That, and d10 Hit Dice. It will take more than a scary speech and a scalpel to bring one of them down.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Being Chaotic Evil, you will attract attention from Paladins. One of their primary abilities is immunity to fear. That, and d10 Hit Dice. It will take more than a scary speech and a scalpel to bring one of them down.

Yeah, our Paladin is Lawful Stupid. Plus he's a teammate (and a robot) his primary objective is the eradication of evil, so long as he directs what is okay to attack (and doesn't know about the others) then it's fine.

[legomaster00156]

Yeah, our Paladin is Lawful Stupid. Plus he's a teammate (and a robot) his primary objective is the eradication of evil, so long as he directs what is okay to attack (and doesn't know about the others) then it's fine.
I was referring to NPC Paladins.

[Cieyrin]

Oh, I know, but of you have a character pinned well enough and can maintain the pin you can attack, and talk, and if there's anything worse than the pain of slowly having parts of you removed, then it's having it explained to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_keWS1i3RA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6l5-Rup-D4

It's well recorded. Knowing how you will end and not being able to change it. It's not a mechanical advantage. I've managed to cause the DM to just stop making checks, the other players will stop rolling, my character will take rounds upon rounds talking to the victim. Never forget how powerful fear is, even if their immune to mind-affecting abilities. Having someone remove your eyelids will scare you. My character left a combination of both scenes. Something which DnD can't describe, The victim was conscious and alert he had no eyelids, no lips, no tongue, his tendons were sliced, images traced into his body of various things unknown that existed only inside his attackers head, images in his mind that no one could imagine. His Vocal chords cut, but his throat patched up, holding back a scream that would never come out, his tear glands were damaged never to spill a drop for joy, sorrow or fear. He was broken.

Don't let your characters talk on autopilot, roleplay, sometimes it's not just enough to send the Big Bad to Jail, you need to leave an impression, so that he won't ever do anything again. Unfortunately for this guy he wasn't strong, he was a leader of many, but physically weak and went for the physically weakest character too, pity the magus would've made it quick and painless, the Paladin would've taken him to jail. The Scientist removed his will to live.

Oh, undoubtedly. Though, now that I think about it more, it sounds like an Intimidate with heavy circumstance bonuses to me to demoralize. I'm sure there's a method to take that Demoralize into a Frightened or Panicked nonmagically. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, duh, Shatter Defenses takes that Shaken into Flat-Footed for pinned sneaks all day long. I feel dumb sometimes, especially when it's mentioned on the last page...

[ExemplarofAvg]

I was referring to NPC Paladins.

We don't have to deal with those. Ever.


Oh, undoubtedly. Though, now that I think about it more, it sounds like an Intimidate with heavy circumstance bonuses to me to demoralize. I'm sure there's a method to take that Demoralize into a Frightened or Panicked nonmagically. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, duh, Shatter Defenses takes that Shaken into Flat-Footed for pinned sneaks all day long. I feel dumb sometimes, especially when it's mentioned on the last page...

So, if I maximize Intimidate and take Shatter Defenses, I can both terrify him and stab him lots. Hmm, might be nice. But if I can achieve something wonderful without feats, that's always good to.

[Curious]

Oh, undoubtedly. Though, now that I think about it more, it sounds like an Intimidate with heavy circumstance bonuses to me to demoralize. I'm sure there's a method to take that Demoralize into a Frightened or Panicked nonmagically. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oh, duh, Shatter Defenses takes that Shaken into Flat-Footed for pinned sneaks all day long. I feel dumb sometimes, especially when it's mentioned on the last page...

I don't think it works that way. Pathfinder intimidate doesn't stack to create greater fear effects; it can only make you shaken. You can still be getting sneak attack off though, as long as you are power attacking and using Cornugon Smash to activate Shatter Defences.

[Cieyrin]

I don't think it works that way. Pathfinder intimidate doesn't stack to create greater fear effects; it can only make you shaken. You can still be getting sneak attack off though, as long as you are power attacking and using Cornugon Smash to activate Shatter Defences.

I wasn't suggesting stacking fear effects through Intimidate, as I know it doesn't work that way, since it explicitly says further demoralization just extends the duration. In any case, Shatter Defenses works off of Shaken just fine, so you don't need to stack. Cornugon Smash is fine but it sounds like the Surgeon in question is just going to scare the bat**** out of the target, anyways, so it's only a matter of expediency, which if they're pinned is probably not high on the list, y'know? Especially since there are no bonus feats flying around, so that's 5 feats in, which a Surgeon couldn't start till after 1st, since Weapon Focus has a pesky BAB +1 prereq in PF. Just not something I'd like to mess with, especially since a 3/4 BAB character probably doesn't want to deal with Power Attack penalties, anyways.

[ExemplarofAvg]

:(
Final Comments.
Both the Chiurgeon and the Vivisectionist seemed to excel at each purpose. That being said the two compliment each other nicely. Any Alchemist Build would be lucky to have either of those, let alone both.

However no matter how awesome the build is, my group came to me today asked me not to play it again. Something about creeping the life out of them. So next time we play there'll be three new characters. The poor, poor deceased Barbarians player, the Bard's character (who claimed his character commited suicide because after seeing such an act as the mutilation of the barbarian lost all belief that joy could be found through music in a world where creatures like that existed) And me, going with a Half-Elf Fey Bloodline Sorcerer, Mavis Vermilion, roll-out.