Optimized Lvl 20 Swordsage

[Drathmar]

So I am starting a new campaign with some friends, and I wanted to play a full on Swordsage. So no PrC's or Multiclass. Don't know stats yet.

I would prefer to focus in Shadow Hand or Diamond Mind, and I am open to both dual-wielding and TWF.

All books are allowed except book of vile/exalted deeds, unearthed arcana, and specific campaign setting books (so no forgetton realms or eberron, or oriental adventures, etc).

I want a character that is as powerful as can be with being straight sword-sage.

Any suggestions would be awesome :)

I did do some searches and google searches for past ones but nothing that fit my style as all of them included either PrC's or multiclassing.

EDIT:

OH, and I forgot the one house rule:

Exhaustion system: Anytime a character fights (not including spell-casting) for a number of rounds equal to their constitution - 3, they become fatigued, and if they fight for double that become exhausted.

If a spell-caster runs out of spells for a single level of spell-casting, they become fatigued, and if they run out of all their spells they become exhausted.

Maneuvers count as fighting. And yes it is possible to hit exhaustion even for fighters with some of our encounters... and yes it is a lot more taxing on spell-casters, he did that on purpose as he wanted to eliminate or lessen the fact that the most optimized characters are generally spell-casters of some sort.

[TroubleBrewing]

Can you elaborate on your hatred for multiclassing? Rarely is a single class the best option for a given build.

[danzibr]

Well, I don't know how much help this is, but with DM you can go uber charger. There's plenty on that floating around. Unfortunately, I don't know much about Swordsages.

[Big Fau]

Swordsage 20 is decent, but the capstone isn't that good. The levels are also fairly empty, so you won't have that many interesting class features. This is why people who take Swordsage multiclass out of it fairly early (4th level is the last level that offers something of serious value; everything else is bland).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Um... take Adaptive Style... and Mountain Tombstone Strike... and Stance of Alacrity... that's all I got.

[Tvtyrant]

Couple questions:

What melee archetype do you want to be (or ranged for that matter?)
The relevant ones I know of for a Swordsage are:
THF (they don't do this as well as a Warblade, but they can do it)
TWF (Go Crit-fishing route and put Prismatic Burst on them for instance)
Ranged (some of the best manuevers work with range, and you can use Wisdom to hit with a ranged weapon with a feat. Then just pump wisdom and become a SAD ranged character/mini-caster)

[Drathmar]

Couple questions:

What melee archetype do you want to be (or ranged for that matter?)
The relevant ones I know of for a Swordsage are:
THF (they don't do this as well as a Warblade, but they can do it)
TWF (Go Crit-fishing route and put Prismatic Burst on them for instance)
Ranged (some of the best manuevers work with range, and you can use Wisdom to hit with a ranged weapon with a feat. Then just pump wisdom and become a SAD ranged character/mini-caster)

Either thf or twf.

I would possibly consider master of nine as Prc or rogue for multiclassing.

I'd want predominantly swordsage though. Mobile damage dealing style character.

Also forgot to mention no unearthed arcana.

[Person_Man]

Swordsage 20 works great strait out of the box. You can take a look at the Tricks/Combo (http://community.wizards.com/forumhandler?t=680285) thread for ideas. But in general, you want a good mix of strikes, boosts, and counters. If you do that, you'll be fine.

If you do want higher level optimization advice, you'll need to decide whether your to focus on Full Round Actions or Standard Action Strikes. The two strategies are somewhat incompatible.

Full Round Action Strikes are more powerful, and tend to focus on getting a ton of attacks (Multiweapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Attacks of Opportunity, etc) every turn. They have a very high damage output. But using them necessitates investment in a free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). You also have a tendency to be on the front line of battle the entire time, which is dangerous for a semi-squishy Swordsage. The best example is probably Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip.

The Standard Action strategy generally has much lower damage per turn, because they only tend to make 1 attack + damage bonus + status effect. But the status effects tend to be very fun/useful, and you always have your Move action available to Move or do other stuff. (Intimidate, activate certain feats, etc). It works particularly well with the Flyby Attack, which lets you move, make a Standard Action, and then continue movement. A good example is the Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.


Once you pick a main strategy, it'll be easier to give more specific advice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I want a character that is as powerful as can be with being straight sword-sage.

I doubt you want to play Pun-Pun, so I'll just go with playable options...
I'll mention first the Arcane Swordsage adaptation mentioned on page 20 of ToB, which if allowed should be severely restricted in what it can do, otherwise a liberal use of it ends up being more powerful than a Wizard of equal level.

Use a level adjusted race/template and buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). For a Swordsage I'd recommend a Whisper Gnome (RoS) Shadow Creature (LoM). That gets a +2 LA, which can be bought off by level 9 for a total cost of 16,000 XP. You can get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for a 10% bonus to your total XP, which for a 20th level character would be an extra 19,000, so after all that you'll actually be ahead by 3,000 XP.

I'd also include the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick), which combined with a Whisper Gnome Shadow Creature would give you a natural base land speed of 60 ft. (30+10 first, then x1.5). If you don't like the HP loss, pick up Improved Toughness (CW) and consider it to be +15 ft. land speed for a feat. You should also take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to get two extra feats, several of them have a moderately negligible drawback.

I'll mention next a particular item you should definitely get, it's the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic. The more expensive version (still easily affordable) gives you the Dark Creature template from that same book, which grants Hide in Plain Sight, huge bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, and an extra +10 ft. movement. Many of its other abilities are redundant with Shadow Creature, but it's still definitely worth getting.

So, for a Whisper Gnome Shadow Creature Dark Creature Swordsage 20, I'd be sure to include TWF, ITWF, and GTWF, along with Weapon Finesse and of course Shadow Blade from ToB, along with Item Familiar. Every Swordsage should get Adaptive Style in ToB, it should have just been built in as a class feature. With two flaws, you can get TWF, Adaptive Style, and Shadow Blade at 1st, Item Familiar at 3rd because you want it as soon as possible, Weapon Finesse at 6th, ITWF at 9th, and GTWF at 15th. That leaves an open feat at your 12th and 18th levels. Definitely take Darkstalker (LoM), and I'd probably pick up either Improved Toughness or Combat Reflexes. Definitely get max ranks in Concentration, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently, and plenty in Balance, Tumble, Jump, and Sense Motive. Note that a Swordsage gets x6 skill points at 1st level, instead of the standard x4, so you can drop some points into every Knowledge skill and anything else that may come in handy like Climb, Heal, and Ride. Check out the Skill Tricks in Complete Scoundrel, there are a few useful ones like Back on Your Feet, Twisted Charge, and Up the Hill.

Your Item Familiar is very important, if you ever lose it or if it gets destroyed you'll lose anything you've invested in it, such as skill points and that 10% XP. However, it can be extremely difficult to damage or steal, and the investment is well worth it. An item familiar gets counted as an intelligent item, which gets counted as a construct, which means it remains functional in an antimagic field and dead magic area and it cannot be dispelled or disjoined. If it's a worn item and you wear armor/clothing that covers it, opponents will not have line of sight or line of effect to it so they cannot even attempt to slight of hand, disarm, or sunder it. In the rare circumstance that the PCs are captured and stripped of their gear, your character will probably be the most likely to escape or to not have been captured in the first place. Also note that you can upgrade your item familiar yourself at normal item creation costs (1/2 gp price in gold, 1/25 the gp price in XP), so you can do 75,000 gp worth of upgrades on it at a cost of 37,500 gp and 3,000 XP and have exactly as much XP as the rest of the party starting out.

I'd make your item familiar the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, because it's already extremely important that it never gets lost or destroyed. As per MIC p213 multiple effects can be added to a neck spot item at no higher cost than a standalone item with that property on it. Your collar could start out as an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and you could have added Umbral Metamorphosis to that yourself since the natural armor bonus is one of the effects that can be combined onto another item for no additional cost. Other benefits such as a Constitution bonus and a higher natural armor bonus can also be added. As per the sidebar on DMG p282, you could add another item's properties to it for +50% cost, so you should definitely include the properties of a Necklace of Adaptation as well. I'd make it have Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp), Umbral Metamorphosis (11,000 gp, 880 XP), Adaptation (6,750 gp, 540 XP), and Constitution +6 (18,000 gp, 1440 XP), for a total cost of 37,750 gp and 2,860 XP. You could even make the natural armor bonus higher and just pay the full difference as though you'd hired an NPC to do the crafting of that portion for you.

You gain feats after gaining skill points for a given level, so gaining Item Familiar at 3rd level, you would be able to invest every skill point you'd gained from 4th-20th level into it. At just 6 skill points/level without any Int bonus, that's 102 skill ranks invested, for +34 worth of unnamed bonuses to be distributed to your skills. At level 20 you should have 23 ranks in each of Hide and Move Silently, so that +34 can be a +23 to one of those and +11 to the other. With Int 12 you'll have enough ranks to invest for +39 instead, or with Int 14 you'll have enough ranks for +45, which would be +23 and +22. To put it plainly, nothing will ever be able to detect this character. Between Shadow Blend from Shadow Creature, Darkstalker, and Hide in Plain Sight, opponents will have to make a Spot or Listen check of at least seventy to even notice his presence.

Your weapons should probably be shortswords, and I'd make them both +1, Speed, Wounding, and Magebane from Complete Arcane, making each cost 98,310 gp. Get a spellcaster in the party to cast Greater Magic Weapon on each of them every day so they have a +5 Enhancement bonus, and they'll count as +7 and get +2d6 damage against anything capable of casting arcane spells or using a spell-like ability of an arcane spell, which is just about anything you'll be fighting. Not to mention four attacks/round with each one, and a point of Con damage per hit.

For your other magic items, refer to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) and also check out the magic items sets in MIC and CC.

Get enough Tiger Claw to have Sudden Leap and Dancing/Raging Mongoose. Note that stances count toward how many maneuvers you have in a given discipline for meeting the prerequisites of higher level maneuvers and stances. Sudden Leap is to get you into melee range so you can full attack, and don't forget about the bonus to Jump checks for a high base land speed. After typing all of that, I'm going to leave specific maneuvers and stances to someone else.

[Drathmar]

I doubt you want to play Pun-Pun, so I'll just go with playable options...
I'll mention first the Arcane Swordsage adaptation mentioned on page 20 of ToB, which if allowed should be severely restricted in what it can do, otherwise a liberal use of it ends up being more powerful than a Wizard of equal level.

Use a level adjusted race/template and buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). For a Swordsage I'd recommend a Whisper Gnome (RoS) Shadow Creature (LoM). That gets a +2 LA, which can be bought off by level 9 for a total cost of 16,000 XP. You can get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for a 10% bonus to your total XP, which for a 20th level character would be an extra 19,000, so after all that you'll actually be ahead by 3,000 XP.

I'd also include the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick), which combined with a Whisper Gnome Shadow Creature would give you a natural base land speed of 60 ft. (30+10 first, then x1.5). If you don't like the HP loss, pick up Improved Toughness (CW) and consider it to be +15 ft. land speed for a feat. You should also take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to get two extra feats, several of them have a moderately negligible drawback.

I'll mention next a particular item you should definitely get, it's the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic. The more expensive version (still easily affordable) gives you the Dark Creature template from that same book, which grants Hide in Plain Sight, huge bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, and an extra +10 ft. movement. Many of its other abilities are redundant with Shadow Creature, but it's still definitely worth getting.

So, for a Whisper Gnome Shadow Creature Dark Creature Swordsage 20, I'd be sure to include TWF, ITWF, and GTWF, along with Weapon Finesse and of course Shadow Blade from ToB, along with Item Familiar. Every Swordsage should get Adaptive Style in ToB, it should have just been built in as a class feature. With two flaws, you can get TWF, Adaptive Style, and Shadow Blade at 1st, Item Familiar at 3rd because you want it as soon as possible, Weapon Finesse at 6th, ITWF at 9th, and GTWF at 15th. That leaves an open feat at your 12th and 18th levels. Definitely take Darkstalker (LoM), and I'd probably pick up either Improved Toughness or Combat Reflexes. Definitely get max ranks in Concentration, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently, and plenty in Balance, Tumble, Jump, and Sense Motive. Note that a Swordsage gets x6 skill points at 1st level, instead of the standard x4, so you can drop some points into every Knowledge skill and anything else that may come in handy like Climb, Heal, and Ride. Check out the Skill Tricks in Complete Scoundrel, there are a few useful ones like Back on Your Feet, Twisted Charge, and Up the Hill.

Your Item Familiar is very important, if you ever lose it or if it gets destroyed you'll lose anything you've invested in it, such as skill points and that 10% XP. However, it can be extremely difficult to damage or steal, and the investment is well worth it. An item familiar gets counted as an intelligent item, which gets counted as a construct, which means it remains functional in an antimagic field and dead magic area and it cannot be dispelled or disjoined. If it's a worn item and you wear armor/clothing that covers it, opponents will not have line of sight or line of effect to it so they cannot even attempt to slight of hand, disarm, or sunder it. In the rare circumstance that the PCs are captured and stripped of their gear, your character will probably be the most likely to escape or to not have been captured in the first place. Also note that you can upgrade your item familiar yourself at normal item creation costs (1/2 gp price in gold, 1/25 the gp price in XP), so you can do 75,000 gp worth of upgrades on it at a cost of 37,500 gp and 3,000 XP and have exactly as much XP as the rest of the party starting out.

I'd make your item familiar the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, because it's already extremely important that it never gets lost or destroyed. As per MIC p213 multiple effects can be added to a neck spot item at no higher cost than a standalone item with that property on it. Your collar could start out as an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and you could have added Umbral Metamorphosis to that yourself since the natural armor bonus is one of the effects that can be combined onto another item for no additional cost. Other benefits such as a Constitution bonus and a higher natural armor bonus can also be added. As per the sidebar on DMG p282, you could add another item's properties to it for +50% cost, so you should definitely include the properties of a Necklace of Adaptation as well. I'd make it have Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp), Umbral Metamorphosis (11,000 gp, 880 XP), Adaptation (6,750 gp, 540 XP), and Constitution +6 (18,000 gp, 1440 XP), for a total cost of 37,750 gp and 2,860 XP. You could even make the natural armor bonus higher and just pay the full difference as though you'd hired an NPC to do the crafting of that portion for you.

You gain feats after gaining skill points for a given level, so gaining Item Familiar at 3rd level, you would be able to invest every skill point you'd gained from 4th-20th level into it. At just 6 skill points/level without any Int bonus, that's 102 skill ranks invested, for +34 worth of unnamed bonuses to be distributed to your skills. At level 20 you should have 23 ranks in each of Hide and Move Silently, so that +34 can be a +23 to one of those and +11 to the other. With Int 12 you'll have enough ranks to invest for +39 instead, or with Int 14 you'll have enough ranks for +45, which would be +23 and +22. To put it plainly, nothing will ever be able to detect this character. Between Shadow Blend from Shadow Creature, Darkstalker, and Hide in Plain Sight, opponents will have to make a Spot or Listen check of at least seventy to even notice his presence.

Your weapons should probably be shortswords, and I'd make them both +1, Speed, Wounding, and Magebane from Complete Arcane, making each cost 98,310 gp. Get a spellcaster in the party to cast Greater Magic Weapon on each of them every day so they have a +5 Enhancement bonus, and they'll count as +7 and get +2d6 damage against anything capable of casting arcane spells or using a spell-like ability of an arcane spell, which is just about anything you'll be fighting. Not to mention four attacks/round with each one, and a point of Con damage per hit.

For your other magic items, refer to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) and also check out the magic items sets in MIC and CC.

Get enough Tiger Claw to have Sudden Leap and Dancing/Raging Mongoose. Note that stances count toward how many maneuvers you have in a given discipline for meeting the prerequisites of higher level maneuvers and stances. Sudden Leap is to get you into melee range so you can full attack, and don't forget about the bonus to Jump checks for a high base land speed. After typing all of that, I'm going to leave specific maneuvers and stances to someone else.

I do like a lot of the idea, and will definitely consider them, I do want it to be a feel between an assassin type character (not the PrC) and a mobile fighting type character which is why I chose swordsage for this as it seems the closest to it, and I want to try a ToB class as it's one of the few books I haven't tried anything from, and the whole hide/move silently item familiar feat seams good for that.

The one problem is that cannot take flaws as they count as UA material which isn't allowed.

ALso, I need to talk to my DM and ask if the 'Races of' books count as specific campaign material or not, as they are tailored toward campaigns around those creatures for the most part.

Item creation should be fine depending on what book it is from.

I also should have mentioned we are starting at 3 and playing till at least 20 and most likely beyond (last campaign we started at 1 and got to 25, lasted a couple years), I said SS 20 mostly because I do like to plan my characters ahead of time, and because I wanted a full 20 SS, as I have never played a non-multiclass non-PrC character before.

So, Item Familiar feat is in, as is possibly whisper gnome and possibly shadow creature.

I like the collar, and the +1 short swords as well with the stat bonuses and the greater magic weapon trick.



Swordsage 20 works great strait out of the box. You can take a look at the Tricks/Combo thread for ideas. But in general, you want a good mix of strikes, boosts, and counters. If you do that, you'll be fine.

If you do want higher level optimization advice, you'll need to decide whether your to focus on Full Round Actions or Standard Action Strikes. The two strategies are somewhat incompatible.

Full Round Action Strikes are more powerful, and tend to focus on getting a ton of attacks (Multiweapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Attacks of Opportunity, etc) every turn. They have a very high damage output. But using them necessitates investment in a free movement. You also have a tendency to be on the front line of battle the entire time, which is dangerous for a semi-squishy Swordsage. The best example is probably Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip.

The Standard Action strategy generally has much lower damage per turn, because they only tend to make 1 attack + damage bonus + status effect. But the status effects tend to be very fun/useful, and you always have your Move action available to Move or do other stuff. (Intimidate, activate certain feats, etc). It works particularly well with the Flyby Attack, which lets you move, make a Standard Action, and then continue movement. A good example is the Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.


Once you pick a main strategy, it'll be easier to give more specific advice.


I did take a look at the tricks thing, and was thinking of something like working towards assassin stance + raging mongoose + time stands still + (cloak of deception) or using gloom razor in previous round to make them flat footed and using one of the DW boosts as an endgame thing.

Or something similar to that if I went the TWF route. However I am kind of tired of TWF as I tend to do it a lot, as I like flashy characters.

A status effect build sounds like it could be fun, only problem I am worried about is at higher levels if any of them will actually stick.

I am open to both types though, single actions as well as full-round attacks.

I know our party is going to need damage though as our DM doesn't tend to tailor campaigns to character power-level so if we were all straight fighers he would still throw things at us upper tier characters would be challenged by. And right now I know we have someone looking at a Monk into some prestige classes, and another person looking at a battlefield control wizard and the last doesn't know yet (we are making characters next week), so something that would support those 2 would be good.

Any other questions I am free to answer most of the night and will be checking, and any further help is much appreciated :).

Most of my trouble comes from choosing maneuvers and seeing more combos, especially at the lower end of the spectrum. Not to mention more than a single high level combo like that as most of our encounters (combat and non-combat) tend to be long, some taking half a session by themselves or more.


OH, and I forgot the one house rule:

Exhaustion system: Anytime a character fights (not including spell-casting) for a number of rounds equal to their constitution - 3, they become fatigued, and if they fight for double that become exhausted.

If a spell-caster runs out of spells for a single level of spell-casting, they become fatigued, and if they run out of all their spells they become exhausted.

Maneuvers count as fighting. And yes it is possible to hit exhaustion even for fighters with some of our encounters... and yes it is a lot more taxing on spell-casters, he did that on purpose as he wanted to eliminate or lessen the fact that the most optimized characters are generally spell-casters of some sort.

Anyway, mentioning that as people asked why I wanted to be SS and that is part of it, and because someone mentioned the arcane SS variant, which would put me under the spell-caster rule and could hurt quite a bit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Item Familiar is also from UA, so it's probably not going to work after all. The same goes for traits, and LA buyoff. If you can't buy off a level adjustment, and can't use an Item Familiar to get the XP bonus and catch up, then you should probably just not have any level adjustment. The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis alone should be plenty, so drop Shadow Creature as you're probably going to be better off with more class levels.

The Races of- books are not the slightest bit setting specific, as they could be used for any setting where any of those races are present. Even books like Frostburn, Standstorm, and Stormwrack aren't setting specific, since they're only specific to a given environment and can be used for any setting in which that environment is present. Setting specific materials are books with a specific setting's name on the cover or in the title, such as Underdark (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003a) or Races of Eberron. If a book has the D&D logo on the cover but no setting name/logo, then it is not setting specific.

Starting at 3rd level, with no flaws, you really want to have Adaptive Style for sure. If you go for TWF you'll also want Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, plus ITWF and GTWF. That's six feats, out of seven total you'll have by 20th level, so I'd arrange those as Shadow Blade (1), Weapon Finesse (3), TWF (6), ITWF (9), Adaptive Style (12), GTWF (15), and Darkstalker (18).

[Drathmar]

Item Familiar is also from UA, so it's probably not going to work after all. The same goes for traits, and LA buyoff. If you can't buy off a level adjustment, and can't use an Item Familiar to get the XP bonus and catch up, then you should probably just not have any level adjustment. The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis alone should be plenty, so drop Shadow Creature as you're probably going to be better off with more class levels.

The Races of- books are not the slightest bit setting specific, as they could be used for any setting where any of those races are present. Even books like Frostburn, Standstorm, and Stormwrack aren't setting specific, since they're only specific to a given environment and can be used for any setting in which that environment is present. Setting specific materials are books with a specific setting's name on the cover or in the title, such as Underdark (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003a) or Races of Eberron. If a book has the D&D logo on the cover but no setting name/logo, then it is not setting specific.

Starting at 3rd level, with no flaws, you really want to have Adaptive Style for sure. If you go for TWF you'll also want Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, plus ITWF and GTWF. That's six feats, out of seven total you'll have by 20th level, so I'd arrange those as Shadow Blade (1), Weapon Finesse (3), TWF (6), ITWF (9), Adaptive Style (12), GTWF (15), and Darkstalker (18).

Looks good for that, I am assuming you would suggest human and use the bonus feat to get shadow-blade and adaptive style at level one then?

You are right about the races/environment books.

For manuevers for a TWF style I would assume most should be boosts/counters instead of strikes (except for things like wolf fang strike if you ever need your move action for something). Obviously you can't choose only counters/boosts so whats good for strikes... looking at them... Shadow Blade Technique, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade all look good. Assuming Island of Blades for a stance?

What would you suggest if I did want to go for a single standard action build with status effects and as much damage as you can pack into a single strike, with the option of full-round attacks here and there? (Or would you just say screw it cause of ST on most status effects?)

2h weapon + power attack + heavy damage maneuvers with status effects?

Not sure what other feats, never actually made a 2h damage dealer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

2H Swordsage is actually not a bad idea, you'd just have to focus on Str instead of Dex. You'll want to use a medium or bigger race, which means your Hide and Move Silently checks will be considerably worse, but the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis should help out considerably.

I'd get a lot of Stone Dragon for a 2H build, and Power Attack + Emerald Razor is pretty good. Starting at 3rd level you'll have two stances, Hunter's Sense is extremely good outside of combat, and you can switch to a different one on the first round anyway. Wolf Fang Strike is the only Tiger Claw maneuver that doesn't require another maneuver, but if you gain everything at 1st level simultaneously then you could skip that and have both Hunter's Sense and Sudden Leap qualify for each other, but that's a bit questionable. You'll probably have difficulty finding room to include Shadow Hand, but definitely pick up the teleports and trade out a lower level one once you get a new one.

Human is probably going to be your best choice, but if you still want a stealthy character then Underfolk in Races of Destiny are a pretty decent choice. The Dark Chaos Shuffle makes Elf races the best later on, but that's a cheesy trick and it's almost never guaranteed to be available. A Killoren in Races of the Wild with the Aspect of the Hunter is another great choice for a stealthy character, and the Killoren Hunter feat in that same book is extremely useful for locating hidden foes.

[Drathmar]

So the more I think about it the more I am thinking straight 20 swordsage probably isn't that great.

So I would be willing to PrC to Master of Nine, and possibly other suggestions, and take levels in other ToB base classes and fighter (for feats). I would want to TWF, and I definitely want shadowblade. It doesn't need to be completely optimized but a pretty good TWF build that would work through all the levels (thinking about going mixed TWF, 2h, if that's even viable, I know I would have to dip at least 2 fighter levels for feats in that case though.)

Is assassins stance worth it for this build? 2d6 per attack when you are TWF and will have time stands still and raging mongoose later seems like it would be amazing. Same with the DW boosts.

It does have to get 9th level maneuvers as well, and starts at 3rd level. Doesn't have to be predominately sword sage either as long as it gets the shadow hand blinks (and most likely assassins stance and some other good shadow hand stuff), and for shadowblade as you have to be in a shadow hand stance for it.

So what would suggestions for this be then with the less restrictive stuff on it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For Swordsages I like starting with a base of Ranger two, getting the Trap expert ACF from Dungeonscape to get Trapfinding and Disable device as class skill in addition to TWF as a bonus feat.

If you want to dip other classes it might be worthwhile to delay your second level of swordsage to get a third level stance.

Something like SS 1/Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Fighter 2/Swordsage +1 gets you;

Bab +6
Two bonus feats (or three, can't remember if Warbalde gets it's bonus feat at level 2)
Decent saves
Decent skill points
Trapfinding
3 stances, two from swordsage and one from warblade
Two weapon fighting
A lot of maneuvers
Swordsage IL 5
Warblade IL 5

[Drathmar]

For Swordsages I like starting with a base of Ranger two, getting the Trap expert ACF from Dungeonscape to get Trapfinding and Disable device as class skill in addition to TWF as a bonus feat.

If you want to dip other classes it might be worthwhile to delay your second level of swordsage to get a third level stance.

Something like SS 1/Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Fighter 2/Swordsage +1 gets you;

Bab +6
Two bonus feats (or three, can't remember if Warbalde gets it's bonus feat at level 2)
Decent saves
Decent skill points
Trapfinding
3 stances, two from swordsage and one from warblade
Two weapon fighting
A lot of maneuvers
Swordsage IL 5
Warblade IL 5


Hmm this made me think... is there a good WB/SS/MoN build that would end up with: Raging Mongoose, Assassins Stance, Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades, and Stormguard Warrior?

One that would also be playable from 3-20

Wouldn't have to waste a boost on flatfooted-ness either, I will have a flanking buddy, and you can do 10ft move with jump/sudden leap and avalanche and if you were able to pull both gloom razor and stormguard warrior (not sure if this is even possible with TWF line of feats as well).

EDIT: Actually I forgot the insane feat requirements for MoN, so probably hard to get into as TWF unless full warblade with fighter dip, though maybe if you don't take gloom razor it could work... maybe... need to figure it up... hmm

EDIT: Just as a side note, I love my DM... he said if we wrote a detailed description/back story (2 paragraph / 4 paragraph respectively) we would get +2 to a stat of our choice :).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think the build I proposed could be a good start to get all those, you might need to go human and Unarmed Sworsage to get the pre-requisites in time though.

Having said that Stormguard Warrior works best with AoO so you either need Combat reflexes which is another feat down the drain or the Snake Armour (MiC and Savage Species) which let's you act as if you have Combat Reflexes.

[Drathmar]

Well.. just figured out that...

WB 9/Fight 4/SS 2/MoN 5 would actually work...

would start out

1: Ftr 1
2: SS 1 (IL: 2)
3: SS 2 (IL: 3)



Would get Assassins stance at level 3, as well as the following 4 feats (starting human): TWF, Shadowblade, Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse.

Not sure what the optimized progress for the rest of the levels would be but thinking:

4: Ftr 2 (improved init)
5: WB 1 (IL: 3)
6: WB 2 (improved unarmed strike) (IL: 4)
7: Ftr 3
8: Ftr 4 (ITWF)
9: WB 3 (Iron Heart Aura) (IL: 6)
10: WB 4 (IL: 7)
11: WB 5 (Combat Reflexes) (IL: 8)
12: WB 6 (Stormguard Warrior) (IL: 9)
13: WB 7 (IL: 10)
14: WB 8 (IL: 11)
15: WB 9 (Blind-Fight, Dodge) (IL: 12)
16: MoN 1 (IL: 13)
17: MoN 2 (IL: 14)
18: MoN 3 (GTWF) (IL: 15)
19: MoN 4 (IL: 16)
20: MoN 5 (IL: 17)

So, it would be awesome if we started at 20th level, but being 3 IL's behind... not sure how well it would work starting low and leveling up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You can't get Assassin Stance at IL 3, the maneuver level access is identical to the spell level access, 2nd level maneuvers at IL 3, 3rd level maneuvers at IL 5 and so on, the actual formula is Maneuver level=(IL*2)-1.

[Draz74]

Just FYI: bits of the info you're getting here are considered cheese by most DMs. Taking advantage of the typo that says Swordsages get x6 skills at Level 1 instead of x4? Stinky cheese. Dark Chaos Shuffle? I don't recommend it.

Shadow Blade/TWF is the most common Swordsage style, and it certainly works. But if you go for this, I wouldn't bother taking ITWF or GTWF. I'd just take normal TWF, then buy Gloves of the Balanced Hand to pick up ITWF cheap. Feats are precious, and spending them on making situational extra iterative attacks that will likely miss anyway (with -5 or -10 attack penalties on a Medium-BAB class) is a poor direction to take.

Blood in the Water + kukri crit-fishing probably does even more damage than an Assassin's Stance/Shadow Blade Swordsage in the long run, but it's relatively vulnerable to crit-immune targets and enjoys less variety in its tactics.

I'd avoid going Master of Nine unless you're switching to mostly Warblade instead of mostly Swordsage.


Swordsage 20 is decent, but the capstone isn't that good. The levels are also fairly empty, so you won't have that many interesting class features. This is why people who take Swordsage multiclass out of it fairly early (4th level is the last level that offers something of serious value; everything else is bland).

Defensive Stance at 8 and Evasion at 9 aren't exactly bad features.

[Drathmar]

You can't get Assassin Stance at IL 3, the maneuver level access is identical to the spell level access, 2nd level maneuvers at IL 3, 3rd level maneuvers at IL 5 and so on, the actual formula is Maneuver level=(IL*2)-1.

Your right, I was thinking Assassin stance was 2nd level not 3rd.

Would have to be something like

Ft1
SS 1
WB 1
WB 2
WB 3
WB 4
SS 2
Ft 2
Ft 3
Ft 4
then warblade up to 9 then MoN


Just FYI: bits of the info you're getting here are considered cheese by most DMs. Taking advantage of the typo that says Swordsages get x6 skills at Level 1 instead of x4? Stinky cheese. Dark Chaos Shuffle? I don't recommend it.

Shadow Blade/TWF is the most common Swordsage style, and it certainly works. But if you go for this, I wouldn't bother taking ITWF or GTWF. I'd just take normal TWF, then buy Gloves of the Balanced Hand to pick up ITWF cheap. Feats are precious, and spending them on making situational extra iterative attacks that will likely miss anyway (with -5 or -10 attack penalties on a Medium-BAB class) is a poor direction to take.

Blood in the Water + kukri crit-fishing probably does even more damage than an Assassin's Stance/Shadow Blade Swordsage in the long run, but it's relatively vulnerable to crit-immune targets and enjoys less variety in its tactics.

I'd avoid going Master of Nine unless you're switching to mostly Warblade instead of mostly Swordsage.



Defensive Stance at 8 and Evasion at 9 aren't exactly bad features.

Wasn't going to do Dark Chaos Shuffle, I like optimized characters but not cheese.

The only way I would go master of nine is the build above but that would probably be start at 15-20 character.

Would you think it worth it to do ss18/f2 for 2 extra feats (double boost doesn't seem all that great), or maybe SS17/f3 to get +16 BAB for the extra attack.

something like

F1
SS 1
SS 2

then fit the second fighter level in anywhere, as a human (stuck with human now my DM decided PHB only races cept in special cases), getting

TWF, Shadowblade, Adaptive Syle, Weapon Finesse at level 3, then working towards gloom razor and two weapon rend?

What other feats are generally good in this build, most TWF builds I run ITWF and GTWF, what feats would you suggest in their place?

[Draz74]

Wasn't going to do Dark Chaos Shuffle, I like optimized characters but not cheese.
Yeah, I figured, but I just wanted to make sure you knew what was up. I don't recognize your screen name, and sometimes newbies come around here and can't tell the difference between good optimization advice and stinky cheese.


The only way I would go master of nine is the build above but that would probably be start at 15-20 character.
Sounds good. Personally I wouldn't bother with Assassin's Stance on a Mo9 character, as it tends to be a stance that kind of takes over a character, and to me, the point of Mo9 is to be really flexible.


Would you think it worth it to do ss18/f2 for 2 extra feats (double boost doesn't seem all that great), or maybe SS17/f3 to get +16 BAB for the extra attack.
SS 17 / F 3 wouldn't be enough; you'd still have +15 BAB. To get +16, you'd have to go SS 16 / F 4.

In general, though, if you're considering dipping into something else and you want more feats, I'd go with Psychic Warrior over Fighter, especially if you're playing with Fractional BAB rules. Your Wisdom should be pretty good, so in addition to feats, you'll pick up some lovely Powers that you can use a few times per day. (Expansion, for example.)

I kind of like the elegant simplicity of straight Swordsage 20, though. Dual Boost isn't the same level of awesome as Stance Mastery, but it can arrange some pretty boss novas.


something like

F1
SS 1
SS 2
Goodness, no -- whatever you do, take SS or something else with good skill points as your first level! :smallwink:


What other feats are generally good in this build, most TWF builds I run ITWF and GTWF, what feats would you suggest in their place?

No end of options here.

Craven is the first thing that really springs to mind, assuming your DM will concede to let you qualify for it using Assassin's Stance. I would never pass up Darkstalker on a sneaky character. If you already have Shadow Blade, then as you said, Gloom Razor is a pretty good option. Extra Readied Maneuver is tempting. Martial Stance or Martial Study to pick up something nice from another class is too. I can hardly stand to build melee characters without giving them Combat Reflexes. You could always dip into another subsystem of the game; if you're going for PsyWar dips, then Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop) is pretty awesome, or you could take Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt) to get +4 to Concentration checks (yay Diamond Mind!) and +1/2 level to Hit Points.

P.S. I should mention that I'm really not a big fan of Shadow Blade, either, since I don't like to tie myself down to Shadow Hand stances when there are so many great alternatives. The two biggest examples are Stance of Alacrity (Diamond Mind) and Shifting Defense (Setting Sun), but also:

Crushing Weight of the Mountain (Stone Dragon)
Step of the Wind (Setting Sun)
Hearing the Air (Diamond Mind)
Hunter's Sense (Tiger Claw)
Wolf Pack Tactics (Tiger Claw)

So if you drop Shadow Blade (and unfortunately Gloom Razor as well), you can free up a couple more feat slots. It's not like you're really going to have a hard time dealing significant damage to your enemies ...

[Drathmar]

Yeah, I figured, but I just wanted to make sure you knew what was up. I don't recognize your screen name, and sometimes newbies come around here and can't tell the difference between good optimization advice and stinky cheese.

Sounds good. Personally I wouldn't bother with Assassin's Stance on a Mo9 character, as it tends to be a stance that kind of takes over a character, and to me, the point of Mo9 is to be really flexible.


That's true.



SS 17 / F 3 wouldn't be enough; you'd still have +15 BAB. To get +16, you'd have to go SS 16 / F 4.

SS 17 gets +13 BAB, and Fighter gets + 3 BAB (unless there's an update to 3.5 PHB I am missing where you don't just add the BAB together) that would be +16 BAB.




In general, though, if you're considering dipping into something else and you want more feats, I'd go with Psychic Warrior over Fighter, especially if you're playing with Fractional BAB rules. Your Wisdom should be pretty good, so in addition to feats, you'll pick up some lovely Powers that you can use a few times per day. (Expansion, for example.)


This could be a good idea as well



I kind of like the elegant simplicity of straight Swordsage 20, though. Dual Boost isn't the same level of awesome as Stance Mastery, but it can arrange some pretty boss novas.


That's true, it is a decent capstone ability



Goodness, no -- whatever you do, take SS or something else with good skill points as your first level! :smallwink:


Completely forgot about that... SS 1 F1 SS 2 to get the 4 main feats by 3 if I went that route (weapon finesse, adaptive style, TWF, shadowblade) though which one would you put off till 6 if you went straight SS.



No end of options here.

Craven is the first thing that really springs to mind, assuming your DM will concede to let you qualify for it using Assassin's Stance. I would never pass up Darkstalker on a sneaky character. If you already have Shadow Blade, then as you said, Gloom Razor is a pretty good option. Extra Readied Maneuver is tempting. Martial Stance or Martial Study to pick up something nice from another class is too. I can hardly stand to build melee characters without giving them Combat Reflexes. You could always dip into another subsystem of the game; if you're going for PsyWar dips, then Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop) is pretty awesome, or you could take Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt) to get +4 to Concentration checks (yay Diamond Mind!) and +1/2 level to Hit Points.


My dm can be pretty strict rule wise so I doubt craven. Dark stalker would be good, martial study could be good as well, as is combat reflexes and the psychic ones.



P.S. I should mention that I'm really not a big fan of Shadow Blade, either, since I don't like to tie myself down to Shadow Hand stances when there are so many great alternatives. The two biggest examples are Stance of Alacrity (Diamond Mind) and Shifting Defense (Setting Sun), but also:

Crushing Weight of the Mountain (Stone Dragon)
Step of the Wind (Setting Sun)
Hearing the Air (Diamond Mind)
Hunter's Sense (Tiger Claw)
Wolf Pack Tactics (Tiger Claw)

So if you drop Shadow Blade (and unfortunately Gloom Razor as well), you can free up a couple more feat slots. It's not like you're really going to have a hard time dealing significant damage to your enemies ...

[/quote]

Something to consider at least. Shadowblade is more for help at low level.

[Greenish]

and yes it is a lot more taxing on spell-castersNo, it isn't. Beyond lowest levels, a caster can go for a looong time without exhausting all of spells of certain level (just use different level spells!), and Fatigued/Exhausted is, at most, a minor inconvenience for a caster.

[Drathmar]

No, it isn't. Beyond lowest levels, a caster can go for a looong time without exhausting all of spells of certain level (just use different level spells!), and Fatigued/Exhausted is, at most, a minor inconvenience for a caster.

Well I went back and read the fatigue and exhaustion rules for this and he changed them a bit.

When you are fatigued you have to make a con check to keep fighting as a fighter, and for casters, all standard action spells increase to full-round actions and you have to pass concentration checks to cast anything.

Exhaustion you you have to make a higher con check/concentration check, and can only cast at 1/2 your caster level for casting. '

Anyway, sadly I will have to save this character for another campaign, as the rest of my party has decided to go squishy (one is a monk, one is ranger/rogue, one is a sorcerer) so.. I decided to go ahead and go with a warblade build (strongly considering Crusader as well for the self-healing and tankiness, but I'm not sure about the class as a whole), for Warblade I have a modified build based on on the Rhythm and Blues build in the build compendium (but only 2 levels of bloodclaw master since the rest of it seems... meh... when you already have so many other ways for sudden movement and such).

[Greenish]

Crusader is an excellent tanky facesmasher with staying power and enough offensive capabilities (among other stuff) to encourage mooks to ignore other targets. Access to two great schools (and one decent one) combined with the best maneuver recovery mechanic in game is pretty sweet.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

(Not sure if this works)
If you can take the "battle jump" feat, just do it.
With shadow hand teleports you can appear over your opponents' heads, and then make a double damage charge.
Buy a valorous weapon for triple damage.
Use this charge in conjunction with "dancing mongoose" as a mini-pounce.
If you have any means to actually pounce (like a permanent item of lion's charge, that many -but not all- dms would ban), use it as well.

[Medic!]

Just aimin my squirtgun at the lake here, but why choose between 2hf and 2wf? No reason not to do both with a 2h weapon and armor spikes!

[Drathmar]

(Not sure if this works)
If you can take the "battle jump" feat, just do it.
With shadow hand teleports you can appear over your opponents' heads, and then make a double damage charge.
Buy a valorous weapon for triple damage.
Use this charge in conjunction with "dancing mongoose" as a mini-pounce.
If you have any means to actually pounce (like a permanent item of lion's charge, that many -but not all- dms would ban), use it as well.

I did go back to SS (I think... maybe... read below), found out that we are going to have 2 others who are playing a cleric and crusader.

So we have 5/6 as melee, with a rogue character as well who will benefit from flanking.

EDIT: Mentioned my Ability scores (one) later, putting them here in full:

18, 16, 14, 14, 10, 8

I can't find the book battle jump is in unfortunately :( Lists it as UE on the feat index but has no source listing for what UE is. I am assuming some type of errata?

Here is what I have so far:

1-20 Swordsage

Feats:
1st: Shadowblade, TWF
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Adaptive Style
9th: ITWF
12th: Gloom Razor
15th:
18th:

After that not really sure were to go for feats, battle jump would be nice of course, craven is out (DM said no Assassins stance qualifying for sneak attack). I took ITWF mostly because it's a low-magic world so not sure how easy the ITWF gloves would be to get (and also, wouldn't they take the slot used for dex items?).

Manuevers so far:

1st: Shadow Blade Technique, Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stone Bone

2nd: Claw at the Moon

3rd: Flashing Sun (3 attacks instead of 3 and + dex to attack roll, and rolled and ended up with 20 in dex (18 + 2 free ability points for good backstory writeup)

4th: Cloak of Deception (for getting assassin stance at 5th)
Stone Bone -> Shadow Jaunt

5th: Shadow Garrote


From there heading up, taking the jumping attacks (DM is enforcing much reach vital points rule, and has monsters planned to make use of that), as well as the DW damage boosts and DW Tempest, the mongoose attacks, the fort save counter from DM, and time stands still at the end, as well as the shadow teleports and flat footed stuff.

Stances:

1st: Island of Blades
3rd: Hunters Sense
5th: Assassins Stance

Not really sure what would go good with this build later stance wise, and still make use of shadowblade (im open to stances outside of it if the benefit is worth giving up +dex to damage per hit)

DM asked me not to dip since most of the party isn't big on optimization (monk, ranger/rogue, crusader, cleric, sorcerer, me... which only the monk that I know of planning on PrC's) which is why I went back to SS 20.

Would dual wield 2 short swords.

Other idea I have is in the spoiler tag (its a full build). I am torn between them as both have things I like about them.



1st: Warblade-1
2nd: Warblade-2
3rd: Warblade-3
4th: Warblade-4
5th: Warblade-5 (Bonus Feat)
6th: Warblade-6
7th: Bloodclaw Master-1
8th: Bloodclaw Master-2
9th: Warblade-7
10th: Warblade-8
11th: Warblade-9 (Bonus Feat)
12th: Warblade-10
13th: Warblade-11
14th: Warblade-12
15th: Warblade-13 (Bonus Feat)
16th: Warblade-14
17th: Warblade-15
18th: Warblade-16
19th: Warblade-17 (Bonus Feat)
20th: Warblade-18


Feats:
1st: Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack (PA to use 2h at low levels and when not being able to full round attack, especially for low level, can probably retrain it later since retraining is PHB II I am pretty sure it is allowed).
3rd: Weapon Finesse
5th: Combat Reflexes
6th: Improved TWF
9th: Karmic Strike
11th: Ironheart Aura
12th: Stormguard Warrior
15th: Greater TWF, Improved Crit
18th:
29th:



Skills:
Jump
Concentration


Manuevers Gained:

1st:
Steel Wind
Wolf-Fang Strike
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
2nd:
Claw at the Moon
3rd:
Wall of Blades
4th:
Steel Wind -> Emerald Razor
5th:
Iron Hurt Surge
6th:
Sapphire Nightmare Blade -> Insightful Strike
7th:
Death From Above
9th:
Claw at the Moon-> Dancing Mongoose
10th:
Mithril Tornado
11th:
Emerald Razor -> Moment of Alacrity
12th:
Greater Insightful Strike
13th:
Death From Above -> Avalanche of Blades
14th:
Quicksilver Motion
15th:
Mithril Tornado -> Adamantine Hurricane
16th:
Girallon Flesh Rip
17th:
Wolf-Fang Strike -> Time Stands Still
18th:
Raging Mongoose
19th:
Dancing Mongoose -> Strike of Perfect Clarity
20th:
Lightning Throw

Stances Gained:

1st:
Punishing Stance
4th:
Blood in the Water
13th:
Dancing Blade Form
19th:
Prey on the Weak



I really like the mobilty/ranged abilities/damage boosters in Sword Sage but I hate the BAB progression, and miss some of the Iron Heart stuff (and stormguard which is awesome).

The Warblade (2x kukri + greatsword (or other 2h weapons) wielder) I really like the BAB progression, stormguard, karmic strike, more feats, and the more... up in your face twf style it has the feel of, but I miss the mobility of the teleports, the massively higher maneuvers known and readied, and the pure damage boosts.)

Note: Dipping PrC's is ok by DM... he just asked me not to multiclass dip things like fighter or psywarrior for feats, etc.

I have never played a ToB build which I why I want to know so not sure how these will play which is why I am asking on opinions for which I should go for...

In the past for fighters I have generally enjoyed TWF ones, specifically with Swashbuckler, tempest, dervish type builds sometimes with rogue or scout mixed in, and similar things.

Seems to more fit the sword sage, yet at the same time the warblade build just seems so much better. Any suggestions on which I should go for (or improvements to either, suggestions for general build for both for filling in feats).

[Draz74]

18, 16, 14, 14, 10, 8
I assume you'll put the two lowest in INT and CHA. That means you'll have a 14 STR, which will mean you're still OK at hitting at Levels 1-2 and means that Shadow Blade is only giving you +2 damage (or slightly more at higher levels once your DEX increases thru various means).


I can't find the book battle jump is in unfortunately :( Lists it as UE on the feat index but has no source listing for what UE is. I am assuming some type of errata?
Unapproachable East. And it's ... not so much an overpowered feat as a "very poorly written, good luck figuring out what it's really supposed to do" type of feat.


Here is what I have so far:

1-20 Swordsage

Feats:
1st: Shadowblade, TWF
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Adaptive Style
9th: ITWF
12th: Gloom Razor
15th:
18th:

After that not really sure were to go for feats, battle jump would be nice of course, craven is out (DM said no Assassins stance qualifying for sneak attack). I took ITWF mostly because it's a low-magic world so not sure how easy the ITWF gloves would be to get (and also, wouldn't they take the slot used for dex items?).
Fair enough. Other feat choices could be Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, Extra Readied Maneuver, Snap Kick, Darkstalker ...

Oh wait, I guess Snap Kick would require also taking IUS. Probably not worth it, then.


Manuevers so far:

1st: Shadow Blade Technique, Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stone Bone

2nd: Claw at the Moon

3rd: Flashing Sun (3 attacks instead of 3 and + dex to attack roll, and rolled and ended up with 20 in dex (18 + 2 free ability points for good backstory writeup)

4th: Cloak of Deception (for getting assassin stance at 5th)
Stone Bone -> Shadow Jaunt

5th: Shadow Garrote
In general, if you haven't looked at the Swordsage Handbook, you should do that for ratings of all the maneuvers (mostly written by yours truly). Also, are you remembering how you can swap maneuvers out as you level up? Because Stone Bones, for example, is great at Level 1 but pretty much worthless by Level 4 or so.


Not really sure what would go good with this build later stance wise, and still make use of shadowblade (im open to stances outside of it if the benefit is worth giving up +dex to damage per hit)
The two that are probably worth giving up +dex to damage are Shifting Defense (Setting Sun 5) and Stance of Alacrity (Diamond Mind 8).


Other idea I have is in the spoiler tag (its a full build). I am torn between them as both have things I like about them.
Eh, Swordsage is what you've been leaning towards all along. I say stick with it.

Either one will do fine -- I love Warblades -- but I'm kind of excited for you to try out a good Swordsage and realize that it has ways to make up for the lack of Good BAB and Stormguard Warrior.

[Drathmar]

I assume you'll put the two lowest in INT and CHA. That means you'll have a 14 STR, which will mean you're still OK at hitting at Levels 1-2 and means that Shadow Blade is only giving you +2 damage (or slightly more at higher levels once your DEX increases thru various means).


I get a free +2 bonus to any one stat for actually writing a really good backstory, so I would have a 20 dex

Also, doesn't the +dex to damage applies to both weapons separately, so it would give +3 damage per hit to the main hand, and +4 damage to hit to the off-hand for a total of +7 damage on a full attack action at lvl 3, since strength is only .5x Str to damage for twf. Plus as I would be increasing dex the most as I level, and getting more attacks (especially with the mongoose abilities)




Unapproachable East. And it's ... not so much an overpowered feat as a "very poorly written, good luck figuring out what it's really supposed to do" type of feat.


Hmmm I don't actually have that book and ya I don't like those kind of feats personally.



Fair enough. Other feat choices could be Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, Extra Readied Maneuver, Snap Kick, Darkstalker ...


Completely forgot about improved critical and combat reflexes for that build, ya those would help and get extra readied with the rest...

Darkstalker... hmm, I don't seem to have Lords of Madness, I have most but not all, wasn't actually even aware of that one till this thread.



Oh wait, I guess Snap Kick would require also taking IUS. Probably not worth it, then.


Ya, I was thinking about going unarmed swordsage but we have someone playing a monk and it would be too mean to outmonk the actual monk.



In general, if you haven't looked at the Swordsage Handbook, you should do that for ratings of all the maneuvers (mostly written by yours truly). Also, are you remembering how you can swap maneuvers out as you level up? Because Stone Bones, for example, is great at Level 1 but pretty much worthless by Level 4 or so.


Ya the Stone Bone -> Shadow Jaunt was the maneuver swap

I will give it a look for the maneuvers, I have glanced at it before but I forgot about that part of it.



The two that are probably worth giving up +dex to damage are Shifting Defense (Setting Sun 5) and Stance of Alacrity (Diamond Mind 8).


Ya, shifting defense looks amazing, though I am not sure if it's movement would work with gloom razor (since it's technically not your turn if they are attacking you... but since you are moving would that move count as your turn?)

Stance of Alacrity... I am assuming it's good since you can then use your counter without using an immediate action (which means you can't use a swift action in the same round iirc... you get 1 immediate OR swift action per round don't you?)




Eh, Swordsage is what you've been leaning towards all along. I say stick with it.

Either one will do fine -- I love Warblades -- but I'm kind of excited for you to try out a good Swordsage and realize that it has ways to make up for the lack of Good BAB and Stormguard Warrior.

That last sentence seals it for me, now I want to see it as well. I do remember looking at the Swordsage handbook, though I forgot about that part, takign a look now.

[Draz74]

I get a free +2 bonus to any one stat for actually writing a really good backstory, so I would have a 20 dex

Also, doesn't the +dex to damage applies to both weapons separately, so it would give +3 damage per hit to the main hand, and +4 damage to hit to the off-hand for a total of +7 damage on a full attack action at lvl 3, since strength is only .5x Str to damage for twf. Plus as I would be increasing dex the most as I level, and getting more attacks (especially with the mongoose abilities)
Good point, it would be a bigger bonus for the off-hand.

Actually, come to think of it, you should also check on your DM's interpretation. What I was saying was based on the "Table" version of Shadow Blade (which was probably the intended version), but the official "Text" version of the feat says that you get +DEX damage in addition to +STR damage. So that would make the feat more valuable, if you go by that version.


Hmmm I don't actually have that book and ya I don't like those kind of feats personally.
Yeah. I have one cheesy melee build that greatly enjoys abusing Battle Jump with its more liberal interpretations, but in general, it's not something I take very often.


Completely forgot about improved critical and combat reflexes for that build, ya those would help and get extra readied with the rest...
I think you can only take Extra Readied once. Not that it's a big deal -- there are plenty of tempting feats to choose from.


Darkstalker... hmm, I don't seem to have Lords of Madness, I have most but not all, wasn't actually even aware of that one till this thread.
Unlike Battle Jump, this one is worth fighting for. At least if stealth is something that comes up in your campaign.

Basically, the main benefit is that it allows you to use Hide and Move Silently normally against Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsense, and Blindsight. It has no prereqs.


I will give it a look for the maneuvers, I have glanced at it before but I forgot about that part of it.
If I get some extra time, I might just fill out a suggested maneuver progression ... but I think you'll be on the right track anyway.


Ya, shifting defense looks amazing, though I am not sure if it's movement would work with gloom razor (since it's technically not your turn if they are attacking you... but since you are moving would that move count as your turn?)
No, it wouldn't count as your turn.


Stance of Alacrity... I am assuming it's good since you can then use your counter without using an immediate action (which means you can't use a swift action in the same round iirc... you get 1 immediate OR swift action per round don't you?)
Right. So this lets you use two Counters or a Counter and a Boost in the same round.

[Drathmar]

Good point, it would be a bigger bonus for the off-hand.

Actually, come to think of it, you should also check on your DM's interpretation. What I was saying was based on the "Table" version of Shadow Blade (which was probably the intended version), but the official "Text" version of the feat says that you get +DEX damage in addition to +STR damage. So that would make the feat more valuable, if you go by that version.


I will, I am pretty sure he generally goes by as written, but either way it's pretty decent just for the fact you can pretty much not worry about strength.




I think you can only take Extra Readied once. Not that it's a big deal -- there are plenty of tempting feats to choose from.


True, I also just noticed Evasive Reflexes, with that and stance of alacrity, you could get a lot of pretty much free movement.



Unlike Battle Jump, this one is worth fighting for. At least if stealth is something that comes up in your campaign.

Basically, the main benefit is that it allows you to use Hide and Move Silently normally against Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsense, and Blindsight. It has no prereqs.



That is nice, I will have to acquire a copy of the book in the near future.



If I get some extra time, I might just fill out a suggested maneuver progression ... but I think you'll be on the right track anyway.


Ya I updated my maneuver plan to:

1st: Shadow Blade Technique, Clinging Shadow Strike, Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Distracting Ember, Sapphire Nightmare Blade

2nd: Moment of Clarity

3rd: Flashing Sun

4th: Cloak of Deception
Clinging Shadow Strike -> Shadow Jaunt

5th: Mind over Body

for this... Flashing Sun, Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike being the main things for TWF in it and the others for times I can't make a full attack to get some decent damage, or for defenses.

Distracting Ember + Island of Blades should greatly help our party since we have a TWF rogue as well (ranger/rogue).




No, it wouldn't count as your turn.


Didn't think so, would have been really really good then, still pretty good, I'm guessing would be situation which to use (lots of enemies this one, few or one enemy a shadow hand stance).



Right. So this lets you use two Counters or a Counter and a Boost in the same round.

Ya, that is pretty nice.