Halfling Rock-Throwing Champion in Pathfinder?

[DarthBlob]

Hey guys. I'm about to start a campaign, and am hoping to build from a halfling rogue into a Rock-Throwing Champion as detailed here on the Giant.

I know where to go to look for how to get a fairly optimized archer/slinger, but a lot of that advice wouldn't play well with the PrC I'm looking into, so I was wondering what y'all might recommend.

We're starting at level one, so no need to worry about anything too, too terribly in depth, but a rough guideline of what to look for and when might be handy.

I've got access to most all of the basic Pathfinder books, and am looking at getting the Halfling sling trait from the Advanced Player's guide (or whatever the name is.) Any suggestions, folks?

[PinkysBrain]

Normally the Rock-Skipping Champion is one of those classes where you are generally better off not using your class abilities at all ...

If you ever make it to very high level (13+) the skip throw could be useful sometimes with the Slow Time ability of the Monk of the Four Winds (three standard actions in a round for 6 ki spend).

[DarthBlob]

Normally the Rock-Skipping Champion is one of those classes where you are generally better off not using your class abilities at all ...

Why do you say that? It seems to fit in well with sneak attack, especially when you don't bank on multiple attacks in one round beyond the skipping.

[Manateee]

*googles*

Ew. Yeah. What pinky said.

Skipping is a standard action, which means you can't get a full round attack, so you'll do even fewer attacks than normal. And you can't concentrate fire, which means two things: 1. the enemies you scratch aren't impeded in any way and 2. you have to get multiple targets to qualify for your bonus damage at the same time.
EDIT: Apparently precision damage only applies to the first throw. Even worse.

I guess it beats taking levels in Warrior. There's not much else that goes in this thing's favor.

[PinkysBrain]

By level 8 with haste and rapid shot you would have 4 attacks on a full attack ... how is it worth it to exchange that for rock skipping?

[DarthBlob]

If I were to talk my DM into allowing me to skip on every attack in a full attack, would that make the class more reasonable, you think? Or would it just make it kind of ridiculous?

I'm in love with the flavor, and I'd like to try to make it work.

[PinkysBrain]

It would make it ridiculous, even more so than the 3.5 master thrower ...

I'd be more inclined to just rewrite the standard action skipping attack until it made mathematical sense to use it.

[PinkysBrain]

How about this (haven't done the math, but meh ... even if it's overpowered it's still better than the original ... that one was just wayyyy too underpowered) :

Skipping: The champion learns to make a thrown or slung stone bounce from one target to strike another. As a standard action, he throws or slings a stone (but not a bullet) at a target (which can include objects, when the target is a square in the environment treat the AC as 5). After arriving at a target the rock bounces and changes direction at the thrower's control and then continues on towards a secondary target giving an additional attack, this is a skip. The rock gains one skip for every 5 BAB the champion has and one extra skip, as the champion gains levels he gets further extra skips. If a stone misses it's target further attacks get a cumulative -5 attack penalty. You must declare all targets and skip tricks for a single throw before rolling the dice.

In addition to gaining more skips per throw, the champion learns how to make his stone travel further between skips. The skipping distance listed for each level indicates the maximum distance a rock may travel after a skip. A skipping stone is still limited by its total range, and all attacks with a skipping stone suffer appropriate range penalties based on how far the rock has flown up to that point.

- Skipping strike is removed, it just repeats what was written down in the description of the skipping ability -

Skip Tricks: At 2nd level and every level thereafter, the champion may select one of the following tricks. Some are used after a stone has struck a target, while others affect the whole throw.

Returning: After a skip, instead of striking another target, the rock returns to the champion's hand. The champion must be within his maximum skip distance from the target struck. This trick is always the last performed in a skip sequence; even if the champion is entitled to additional skips, using a returning skip ends that stone's flight.
Ba-Bump: Upon striking a target, instead of ricocheting to another, the rock flies straight up for 5 feet, then falls back down, striking the same target again. This uses up a skip. After the second strike, the rock can continue on to another target if it has more skips available. No stone may attack the same target more than twice in a row using this trick. A ba-bump trick uses up 10 feet of the rock's flight path.
- Bank Shot is removed, it never made sense that you couldn't do this by default, why would it be harder to skip off objects than live targets? -
Ping Pong: This trick is only available if the Champion can make 2 or more skips in a single throw. Whenever a foe is successfully attacked twice with the same use of skipping and one other target was successfully hit between the first and the second attack, the Champion gains a bonus attack with his skipping stone on each target. This can only be used once per use of skipping.
Between the Eyes: With this trick, the Critical Threat range of of any rock thrown is treated as one greater (19-20, instead of just 20). This increase stacks with similar effects.
Soft Skip: The champion may make any or all attacks with a skipping rock inflict nonlethal damage. He does not suffer a -4 penalty to attack rolls for doing so, and may freely mix nonlethal and regular attacks within the same throw. You must declare which attacks are to be nonlethal before throwing.
Lucky Bounce: Once per round, when a rock misses its target the champion can choose to declare it a "lucky bounce." and reroll the attack.

[ericgrau]

Given the lax pre-reqs the PrC doesn't seem so bad. I'd get lucky bounce right away as its the best ability by far given the chain-attack dependancy. I'd probably start with barbarian rather than rogue for full BAB and extra damage on all your hits instead of precision damage on only 1 hit.

I figured out your hits per round with the class, including lucky bounce. Archery includes rapid shot (2 less hits out of 20, but 1 more attack). Skipper includes the halfing's +1 racial bonus to slings or thrown weapons. The number after "skipper" or "archery" is your total character level.

Hits Per Round
{table] hits/20 | skipper 6 | skipper 8 | skipper 10 | archery 6-10 | archery 6-10 haste | archery 11-15 | archery 11-15 haste | archery 16-20 | archery 16-20 haste
1 | 0.14 | 0.16 | 0.15 | 0.15 | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.30
2 | 0.20 | 0.21 | 0.21 | 0.15 | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.30
3 | 0.25 | 0.26 | 0.25 | 0.15 | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.30
4 | 0.34 | 0.38 | 0.38 | 0.25 | 0.35 | 0.30 | 0.40 | 0.35 | 0.45
5 | 0.46 | 0.47 | 0.47 | 0.35 | 0.50 | 0.40 | 0.55 | 0.45 | 0.60
6 | 0.55 | 0.58 | 0.58 | 0.45 | 0.65 | 0.50 | 0.70 | 0.55 | 0.75
7 | 0.65 | 0.69 | 0.72 | 0.55 | 0.80 | 0.60 | 0.85 | 0.65 | 0.90
8 | 0.75 | 0.82 | 0.85 | 0.65 | 0.95 | 0.70 | 1.00 | 0.75 | 1.05
9 | 0.86 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.80 | 1.15 | 0.85 | 1.20 | 0.90 | 1.25
10 | 0.96 | 1.14 | 1.16 | 0.95 | 1.35 | 1.00 | 1.40 | 1.05 | 1.45
11 | 1.06 | 1.27 | 1.35 | 1.10 | 1.55 | 1.15 | 1.60 | 1.20 | 1.65
12 | 1.14 | 1.44 | 1.52 | 1.25 | 1.75 | 1.30 | 1.80 | 1.35 | 1.85
13 | 1.25 | 1.59 | 1.72 | 1.40 | 1.95 | 1.45 | 2.00 | 1.50 | 2.05
14 | 1.35 | 1.75 | 1.95 | 1.55 | 2.15 | 1.65 | 2.25 | 1.70 | 2.30
15 | 1.44 | 1.92 | 2.17 | 1.70 | 2.35 | 1.85 | 2.50 | 1.90 | 2.55
16 | 1.55 | 2.06 | 2.40 | 1.85 | 2.55 | 2.05 | 2.75 | 2.10 | 2.80
17 | 1.65 | 2.23 | 2.62 | 2.00 | 2.75 | 2.25 | 3.00 | 2.30 | 3.05
18 | 1.75 | 2.39 | 2.85 | 2.15 | 2.95 | 2.45 | 3.25 | 2.50 | 3.30
19 | 1.79 | 2.49 | 3.01 | 2.30 | 3.15 | 2.65 | 3.50 | 2.75 | 3.60
[/table]
Full BAB typically hit 15 or more times out of 20. Less for medium BAB of course.

It looks like at levels 8-20 you actually get more hits than archery as-is, unless the archer is hasted. Something to work around the haste issue might be nice. But besides that I'd say the class needs a lot less help than people say it does. A couple other issues are that archers get bracers of archery and it's harder for a skipper to focus fire. Being able to move and attack is kind of nice though.

A stone does about 1.5 points less damage than an arrow but you don't have to worry about the cost of a composite bow nor getting the right strength rating. At higher levels this becomes much less important. Another issue in Pathfinder is that Pathfinder classes tend to be stronger than 3.5 classes. Maybe a +1 to hit and damage with rocks at PrC levels 1 and 5 would fix that, or some such.

[PinkysBrain]

This is Pathfinder ... so now add manyshot and deadly aim, add bracers of archery appropriate for the level as well.