Generic, all-encompassing "masterwork tools"

[Inspector]

An offshoot from here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12549876&postcount=1447)


A 722 partial: Masterwork tools. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) +2 circumstance bonus to whatever skill that the tool is made for.

I am not a fan of the interpretation that the entry for masterwork tool implies there exists generic +2 masterwork tools for every skill.

For one thing, it seems to refer to the table, which specifies actual tools only for specific skills.

Second, the actual tools sometimes have limitations, such as the disguise kit. If there exist generic tools for every skill that work with no limitation, then the existence of ones with limitations is a problem. Is there, then, a masterwork disguise tool which does not have 10 uses? How does one know that the masterwork tool for a non-listed skill doesn't have some other limitation? For instance the Animal Training kit from Complete Adventurer p.122 is almost certainly the masterwork tool for Handle Animal, and it indeed has limitations.

And third, it requires either creative work to explain what the tool is - which smacks of houserules - or handwaving which breaks verisimilitude.

I absolutely, positively HATE ambiguous rules, and the "masterwork tool" one is a prime offender in my book.

This thread is if anyone wants to discuss.

[Tr011]

It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any).
You make a MW Forgery tool, not a MW anyskill tool.
So there is no such thing as a generic tool.

[Elemental]

Unless it's an army knife from Switzerland.

[Inspector]

You make a MW Forgery tool, not a MW anyskill tool.
So there is no such thing as a generic tool.

Er, that is not what I meant. I mean generic rules for description-less tools. Also, forgery isn't one of them, since that is a listed kit.

[Hirax]

Oh no! I need to use my imagination? That's not what I signed up for when I got into D&D! But seriously, what skills do you have a problem with there being tools for? I just did a scan of the SRD skills, and I don't see anything farfetched. Regarding exhaustible tools, I'd say the only ones worth considering for that category are the ones that are already spelled out.

[sonofzeal]

I find it amusing that none of the listed ones correspond that well with the "Tool, Masterwork" entry. They're either exhausted after 10 uses (heal, disguise), or more expensive (alchemy), or cheaper (appraise), or bundled with others (open lock, disable device).

I for one appreciate it. It gives a nice rule of thumb to use when creating my own. A farmer's almenac that gives +2 on Know:Nature? Sure, that's 50 gp. Padded boots that make movement a little quieter? Yep, 50 gp again. A DM can deviate from these guidelines of course, but it gives a place to start.

[fryplink]

I think that a certain bit of haggling (I almost wrote common sense, whew, close one) between DM's and PC's is important for this kind of thing. MWK Knowledge tools make sense (we call them *books*) and would have many uses. MWK UMD items make a good deal less sense, and if they existed would probably be a magic pixey dust or something that runs out.

The point is, and I *think*(this is 100% RAI) the idea the dev had was a conversation between PC and DM about "yea, ok that makes sense and No, you can't have a permanent mobile custom MWK profession: Chef item"

[Inspector]

Oh no! I need to use my imagination? That's not what I signed up for when I got into D&D!

Hey, you want to make house rules for tools, you go right ahead and do it. Just don't claim the rules say a tool exists for each skill.

My problem is the ambiguous language, and I've no shame for that.


But seriously, what skills do you have a problem with there being tools for? I just did a scan of the SRD skills, and I don't see anything farfetched. Regarding exhaustible tools, I'd say the only ones worth considering for that category are the ones that are already spelled out.

There's a lot missing to make it actually work.

Here is just ONE example, and the whole thing falls apart.

Masterwork tool for a knowledge skill. That could be a book. Maybe. A set of encyclopedias? Maybe. How big is it? Do you have to hold it in both hands? What kind of action is it to use it? All unanswered questions that would have to be answered to have a functioning item.

Remember this is a mundane book, and there are magic books in the various supplements that provide comparable bonuses with daily limitations and long time periods needed to peruse them.

That is a LONG way from the "generic" interpretation, which implies: tools exist for all skills, cheap +2 bonus basically for owning them, no limitations on use.


I think that a certain bit of haggling...

This is part of what bothers me. There are other rules where they explicitly say, "Your DM should make a determination, here are some guidelines." But it does NOT say that here. If that was what they wanted, they should have said it here like they do everywhere else.

The other part that bothers me is that some people seem to take the passage to mean, "masterwork tools exist for all skills, no limitations, 50g. How does it work? Who cares, it says I can has my bonus. It doesn't say with limitations so no limitations."

[Alienist]

I think I would question your fundamental assumptions.

For instance, you seem to think either that accuumulating bonuses to skill is hard, and/or that skills play an important part in the game.

Personally from the number of discussions on this board where people easily surpass DCs in the 40s or 50s without hardly breaking a sweat, indicates to me that the system doesn't actually place true importance in skills.

[Inspector]

I think I would question your fundamental assumptions.

For instance, you seem to think either that accuumulating bonuses to skill is hard, and/or that skills play an important part in the game.

Personally from the number of discussions on this board where people easily surpass DCs in the 40s or 50s without hardly breaking a sweat, indicates to me that the system doesn't actually place true importance in skills.

Heh, right back atcha. The ways they surpass those DC's are thrown about casually here, but would not fly with my DM or if I DM'd.

But, seriously, that's not the nature of my beef. I think the rules are for the most part very specific in their language. Thus, when they are vague, it stands out as shoddy workmanship.

[fryplink]

Personally from the number of discussions on this board where people easily surpass DCs in the 40s or 50s without hardly breaking a sweat, indicates to me that the system doesn't actually place true importance in skills.

At most tables I have seen numbers like that don't come up very often and skills define a good portion of your character, going a long way toward deciding your archetype. At level 20 a DC you can take 10 a DC 34 check from ranks, probably 7 more from abilities, 10 from items. Now if you OP or focus on it, the character can hit DC 100 or even higher, but in organic play at frequently used levels a DC 45 check is a pretty large obstacle, even at later levels.

Remember that this part of these boards are chock full of CharOP-er. (the grammar nazi in me winced at that sentence, but I don't know why)

[sonofzeal]

Heh, right back atcha. The ways they surpass those DC's are thrown about casually here, but would not fly with my DM or if I DM'd.
You're free to do whatever you want, but you'd have to ban a whole lot of content to make that possible. Take the Marshal class for example, and Motivate Charisma. Marshals get Skill Focus: Diplomacy for free, double their Cha to it, and it's a class skill. With some synergy bonuses from Bluff, Know:Nobility, and Sense Motive, it's easy to get ridiculous numbers.

Which part of that "would not fly" with you or your DM?


But, seriously, that's not the nature of my beef. I think the rules are for the most part very specific in their language. Thus, when they are vague, it stands out as shoddy workmanship.
It'd be "shoddy workmanship" if it was intended to be more specific, but it very obviously isn't. The entire purpose of the entry is to do exactly what you're complaining about. It's not poorly worded, it's deliberately set up as a catch-all.

[Inspector]

Take the Marshal class for example, and Motivate Charisma...

Which part of that "would not fly" with you or your DM?

Oh, nothing like that would be a problem. Actually, it's kind of hard to answer since my quip was a nonspecific response to a nonspecific claim about the actions of nonspecific people. If any of what I said applies to an example like yours, it would be something along the lines of, "but I'm not a Marshal and can't afford to take a level of a non-casting class and, besides, it doesn't fit the character concept."



It'd be "shoddy workmanship" if it was intended to be more specific, but it very obviously isn't. The entire purpose of the entry is to do exactly what you're complaining about. It's not poorly worded, it's deliberately set up as a catch-all.

As I said, if that were the intent, they should have used the wording they used everywhere else where that is the intent. Then I would have zero beef. Especially because people would not be able to claim that RAW guarantees them a +2 masterwork item for every skill with no limitations, including spellcraft and UMD.

[NNescio]

It'd be "shoddy workmanship" if it was intended to be more specific, but it very obviously isn't. The entire purpose of the entry is to do exactly what you're complaining about. It's not poorly worded, it's deliberately set up as a catch-all.

The full text from the PHB leaves it beyond any doubt:


This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Some examples of this sort of item from table 7-8 include masterwork artisan's tools, masterwork thieves' tools, disguise kit, climber's kit, healer's kit, and masterwork musical instrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and a masterwork climber's kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a Climb check.

[Flickerdart]

A UMD MW tool is obvious - you have a dummy wand. Then you show it to the wand you want to use, and snap the dummy in half, to dissuade the real one from trying anything funny.

[fryplink]

A UMD MW tool is obvious - you have a dummy wand. Then you show it to the wand you want to use, and snap the dummy in half, to dissuade the real one from trying anything funny.

Clearly this is a consumable item. Unless it's like the breakable board you use to practice strikes in Martial Arts.

[Inspector]

The full text from the PHB leaves it beyond any doubt:

That doesn't change any of my point, though. It does not say, "you'll need to negotiate the details with your DM, though, because we aren't giving you any of them."

Important details, such as:


Masterwork tool for a knowledge skill. That could be a book. Maybe. A set of encyclopedias? Maybe. How big is it? Do you have to hold it in both hands? What kind of action is it to use it? All unanswered questions that would have to be answered to have a functioning item.

Remember this is a mundane book, and there are magic books in the various supplements that provide comparable bonuses with daily limitations and long time periods needed to peruse them.

That is a LONG way from the "generic" interpretation, which implies: tools exist for all skills, cheap +2 bonus basically for owning them, no limitations on use.

[Flickerdart]

Precisely. It's the tricksy classes that get UMD anyway, so it would be entirely in character to swindle the thing.

[Namfuak]

I guess I would want to know what specific skills you had a problem with there being masterwork tools for. UMD would seem a bit weird, except that we must remember that we are talking about a fictional item. It's perfectly reasonable that you have a small trinket that communicates with magical items you are trying to use, saying "allow him to use you, he's a cool guy!" Or, the same trinket gives off a nearly imperceptible (read - invisible to even detect spells, but barely registered by magic devices) of whatever alignment you have to be to use the device, or if that's not an issue than it maybe reads the device and sends the same slight signal to you about how to properly use the magic device's spell. If it has to be completely mundane, maybe it's a small wand holder that makes the wand more comfortable to use, allowing you to concentrate on using it better.

The point is, you are complaining that there is no real world solution to a problem which only exists in a fantasy world, at least in that case.

[Medic!]

I could be going out on a limb here, but sometimes rules are best left a little vague. When a rule (in any situation) attempts to encompass every facet of the behavior or condition it's meant to modify, disgusting dirty creatures crop up. Rule Lawyers or even *shudder* real lawyers!

I love that this particular item is kept vague, it lets you come up with anything you can imagine.

"My rogue carries a special preserved lock of a wizard's hair, he uses it to make wands answer my commands!"

"This tiny magnetic crystal on a fine chain that you see on my forehead? It helps me concentrate."

"I have a small gnomish device that reacts to sound [or light] in my immediate area, helps me know I'm footpaddin properly."

"This is my magic 8 ball. Suck it."

[Inspector]

I guess I would want to know what specific skills you had a problem with there being masterwork tools for.

You misunderstand; I don't have a problem with the idea of there being masterwork tools for all the skills.

I have a problem with them stopping halfway through writing the rule, leaving out badly needed details*, and a bunch of people interpreting the half-written rule's not-specifically-telling-them-they-can't to mean that there exist generic "tools" which give a +2 bonus without limitations of how, when, and how often you can use them.

And when you deal with magic, such as UMD or Spellcraft, you can't just say "well, use common sense and work it out with your DM." It's magic; by definition you can't really common sense it, so it would be best just to write out the bloody rule.

*see above, where I detailed the example with the knowledge tool. Note this is just an example; a fraction of the unanswered questions.

[Hirax]

I think some of the reactions are based on you seeming to imply that filling in the details is much more terrifying than it really is. Sure, it would have been nice if this had been fleshed out more, but I'm glad it's there, even in its limited form.

[Namfuak]

You misunderstand; I don't have a problem with the idea of there being masterwork tools for all the skills.

I have a problem with them stopping halfway through writing the rule, leaving out badly needed details*, and a bunch of people interpreting the half-written rule's not-specifically-telling-them-they-can't to mean that there exist generic "tools" which give a +2 bonus without limitations of how, when, and how often you can use them.

And when you deal with magic, such as UMD or Spellcraft, you can't just say "well, use common sense and work it out with your DM." It's magic; by definition you can't really common sense it, so it would be best just to write out the bloody rule.

*see above, where I detailed the example with the knowledge tool. Note this is just an example; a fraction of the unanswered questions.

Ah, now I see what you mean. You are right, even whether weight is gained for regular and masterwork kits does not seem to be consistent. I suppose they expect it to be left up to the DM, but at least if they specifically mentioned that, then it would be a little clearer.

[Inspector]

I think some of the reactions are based on you seeming to imply that filling in the details is much more terrifying than it really is. Sure, it would have been nice if this had been fleshed out more, but I'm glad it's there, even in its limited form.

Yeah, I don't mean to say it is that. It's more everything else, combined.

For instance, if the sections quoted in this thread were simply deleted, I think it would be a lot less trouble. Everyone would know that adding new tools was house ruling, and fewer folks would think they were authorized to handwave the details because the rules say there are tools for all skills. I'm saying this rule was written so poorly, that it would have been better to say nothing at all.

[Alleine]

If you feel this strongly about some vague wording for measly +2 bonuses to skills, I'd hate for you to read Iron Heart Surge and the ensuing discussions on how dreadfully vague is.

Honestly I figure the devs just said "You know, we could write out a specific tool for each and every skill(and then forget to do it it future books, thus causing confusion because yaaay WoTC), or we could write out a few specific tools and then give a very vague and general rule for the rest of them. Then there won't be arguments about specific instances where the tools don't make perfect sense!"

Leaving something as small(to my mind) as a +2 masterwork tool up to houseruling isn't really important. It's when they fail to specify how a main class feature/spell would act in certain circumstances like a grapple, for instance. I distinctly recall having to look up the rules for what type of ability a class feature was(Ex, Su, Sp), and then looking up those in an attempt to determine how it worked in the situation we were in. It doesn't happen often but when it does out sessions usually grind to a halt while we try to figure things out.

Though I'm probably giving WoTC too much credit for foresight on this.

[Inspector]

Leaving something as small(to my mind) as a +2 masterwork tool up to houseruling isn't really important.

Of course, again for the record, it isn't that they left this to houseruling, it is how they did it.

But yes ToB has some real Whiskey Tango Foxtrot moments.

[Terazul]

I'd argue it doesn't really break verisimilitude more than anything else in the game. :smallconfused: I don't see how people coming up with their own variations of masterwork tools break the flow of the game more than a robot that summons souls as magic items or something. Even in the game I'm in right now across characters everyone has their own unique little things that aren't that out there:

Pack of Business Cards - Technically 4 MW Tools, but business cards for every social occasion, functioning as a MW device for Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information and Intimidate. With varying taglines after the initial introduction; "Won't Sell You Out!" "The Best At What He Does" "Two For One Knee Breaks On Thursdays", etc.

Mountain Treads - There's a guy who's been climbing mountains all the time, so he has grip treads on his boots. Another double, +2 to Balance and Climb.

Secret Blend of Herbs and Spices - +2 Craft (Poisonmaking). Always seems to perk up the dose.

Amulet of Dog Hypnosis - This is a dog biscuit on a piece of string. A really good dog biscuit. +2 Handle Animal.

Wicked Sweet Goggles - Self explanatory. +2 Spot.

Eldritch Sheathe of [Redacted] - Can't post the rest of that here. Long story short it's the guy's sheathe for his weapon and it gives +2 to Iaijutsu Focus. He must of been really angry when he got that made.

Workman's Hammer - Doubler! Can be used for +2 to Intimidate since it looks like it's for breaking faces, or a +2 to Disable Device, since it's actually for breaking everything else.

and lastly, the Arcanolight - A headband-mounted clip-on light combined with a special lens, that illuminates patterns of magic. +2 to Spellcraft and UMD. Perfect for the Artificer on the go.

And that's just a few of the personalized MW Skill items we've got flying around. None of them seem that far fetched to me (except maybe the dog biscuit, but that's hilarious so it's ok). I believe the rules are intentionally vague so you can do the same, and come up with something appropriate rather than being adamant about what kind of tool interacts with what skill. But uhh, yeah. Most people I know reflavor everything from races to class features, given how zany DnD at it's core is in the first place, so I don't really see the issue with the rules "smacking" of anything.

[Inspector]

I'd argue it doesn't really break verisimilitude more than anything else in the game. :smallconfused:

Yeah the diplomacy, bluff, gather information, and intimidate ones totally break it. Bear in mind that these are by definition mundane and not magical tools. Except maybe the ones for UMD? Yeah, see, there. That is one more unanswered question that cropped up.

(plus the climb and handle animal ones are actual listed items in the books, so those should be ruled against)

[Tyndmyr]

An offshoot from here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12549876&postcount=1447)



I am not a fan of the interpretation that the entry for masterwork tool implies there exists generic +2 masterwork tools for every skill.

For one thing, it seems to refer to the table, which specifies actual tools only for specific skills.

Second, the actual tools sometimes have limitations, such as the disguise kit. If there exist generic tools for every skill that work with no limitation, then the existence of ones with limitations is a problem. Is there, then, a masterwork disguise tool which does not have 10 uses? How does one know that the masterwork tool for a non-listed skill doesn't have some other limitation? For instance the Animal Training kit from Complete Adventurer p.122 is almost certainly the masterwork tool for Handle Animal, and it indeed has limitations.

And third, it requires either creative work to explain what the tool is - which smacks of houserules - or handwaving which breaks verisimilitude.

I absolutely, positively HATE ambiguous rules, and the "masterwork tool" one is a prime offender in my book.

This thread is if anyone wants to discuss.

So? You invent a tool that would reasonably work. For instance, in a campaign I'm currently playing in, I have a MW guidebook that cost twice as much as a standard masterwork tool, and works on both spellcraft and Know(arcana) checks(on account of them being related subjects). However, I have to have the book open in my hand to utilize it for obvious reasons.

It's a catch-all pricing for other masterwork tools. They can't list everything, but obviously a great many tools exist, and anything can be made masterwork. So...that's what they cost, and that's the benefit.

[Terazul]

Yeah the diplomacy, bluff, gather information, and intimidate ones totally break it. Bear in mind that these are by definition mundane and not magical tools. Except maybe the ones for UMD? Yeah, see, there. That is one more unanswered question that cropped up.

They really don't, especially when my character is a hired cognoscente, known for being a negotiator or hit-man and whatnot (haha! Bards). He presents his business card to those he wants to come to an agreement with to let them know he is a professional (Diplomacy), to trick them into thinking he's another profession entirely (Bluff), that he won't betray the location of where he got his knowledge (Gather Information, usually accompanied by a bribe), or that he will in fact break their legs if they do not compromise (Intimidate). There's even a picture on the last one.

No unanswered questions, all completely reasonable. I really think you're just making a problem for yourself, here.

[Inspector]

So? You invent a tool that would reasonably work. For instance, in a campaign I'm currently playing in, I have a MW guidebook that cost twice as much as a standard masterwork tool, and works on both spellcraft and Know(arcana) checks(on account of them being related subjects). However, I have to have the book open in my hand to utilize it for obvious reasons.

It's a catch-all pricing for other masterwork tools. They can't list everything, but obviously a great many tools exist, and anything can be made masterwork. So...that's what they cost, and that's the benefit.

You might want to read the rest of my posts in the thread, I address your arguments. If magical books take more than standard actions to provide skill bonuses, no way will a mundane book held in one hand. And so on.


They really don't, especially when my character is a hired cognoscente

I'm sure that flies just fine at your table. Which is just fine. It definitely does not fly at mine or with my GM as we are much stricter. What you're describing is not the item giving a bonus, but your character's already established reputation. Which would be covered as the GM giving you a circumstance bonus as described under the skills section.

[Haron]

If you look at the mechanics behind a spell component pouch, there's really no reason to get all up in details about these MW tools for skills. You can grab something out of a SCP as a free action, and as long as there's no cost associated to it, it doesn't even matter where you got it from, or how much you have of it. How is your issue with the MW tools any "worse" or different from the handling of the spell components?
One solution for the UMD-tool could even be a modified spell component pouch, as in you pull out a piece of cloth from a clerics robe, and rub the wand with it while trying to cast a cleric spell. And later, you use it to get an angel's hair to simulate your good alignment for the item you're trying to use, for a bonus of +2

[Terazul]

I'm sure that flies just fine at your table. Which is just fine. It definitely does not fly at mine or with my GM as we are much stricter. What you're describing is not the item giving a bonus, but your character's already established reputation. Which would be covered as the GM giving you a circumstance bonus as described under the skills section.

S'totally the item. I use it in conjunction with the appropriate skill check to aid me. S'circumstance bonus. Most people we meet will never have previously met or heard of my character. That's why he has the business cards in the first place, to establish that he is for realz, not for play play, as it were.

That's nice that your table house rules so that masterwork skill items don't work how they should. That doesn't mean they don't, y'know actually work how they do. And yeah, don't even get me started on spell component pouches. Anything without a listed cost? Yeah, let's get upset at business cards when anyone can pull the sword of a level 20 fighter out of those things. Honestly now.

[Tyndmyr]

You might want to read the rest of my posts in the thread, I address your arguments. If magical books take more than standard actions to provide skill bonuses, no way will a mundane book held in one hand. And so on.

I, in real life, can read an instruction in six seconds while doing something else. How magic works has little bearing on how mundane things work.

My wizard has a pretty good int score, and he's literate. He's quite capable of doing this same as I am.

Now sure, a barbarian likely can't use the book, but he also likely doesn't care.

[Inspector]

S'totally the item. I use it in conjunction with the appropriate skill check to aid me. S'circumstance bonus. Most people we meet will never have previously met or heard of my character. That's why he has the business cards in the first place, to establish that he is for realz, not for play play, as it were.

This is precisely my point, that you are proving here.

He totally thinks that the description means that he is allowed, RAW, to have a MW tool for any skill with no limitations, handwaving all the details which would make this impossible.

Whereas the RAW say (really poorly), at best, that you need to negotiate with your DM to make house rules for any such item. I just wish they said this clearer so that people like Terazul didn't think they could get away with shenanigans like that and accuse ME of being the one with the house rules.


How is your issue with the MW tools any "worse" or different from the handling of the spell components?

I can answer that: because with the spell component pouch, they deliberately and explicitly handwave the issue. There is no ambiguity about the fact that RAW is giving you permission to handwave. But with masterwork tools, they simply fail to describe what is allowed in a vague enough manner such that cheesy players THINK they are being given permission by RAW to handwave it.

[Terazul]

The RAW says it covers everything else. I came up with plausible explanations. There aren't even any impossible details. I have my disguise kit (well Vestment of Many Styles) ready to make me look like a clown. Now I present a business card to help reinforce the bluff check that they believe I'm actually a clown. There's no "shenanigans" about it. To borrow from Tyndmyr, I, in real life can do the exact same thing and have people believe me. It's in fact a common practice to present your business card when you're trying to get a job or provide a service for someone, as it serves as a means for establishing yourself as legitimate. Do you live on earth?

As countless people have pointed out, it is intentionally vague about what a MW tool for a skill is because A) It will vary from character to character and what situation it is appropriate in, and B) because it really is not that big of a deal that they need to be precise about it.

[Tyndmyr]

This is precisely my point, that you are proving here.

He totally thinks that the description means that he is allowed, RAW, to have a MW tool for any skill with no limitations, handwaving all the details which would make this impossible.

Whereas the RAW say (really poorly), at best, that you need to negotiate with your DM to make house rules for any such item. I just wish they said this clearer so that people like Terazul didn't think they could get away with shenanigans like that and accuse ME of being the one with the house rules.

By RAW, masterwork skill tools exist.


Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

There we go. They exist. Yes, not every tool in existence may have a related skill check for it, but it's a lovely catch all that codifies standard +2 favorable circumstance bonus into item form for skills. That's the point of the entry.

[Haron]

I can answer that: because with the spell component pouch, they deliberately and explicitly handwave the issue. There is no ambiguity about the fact that RAW is giving you permission to handwave. But with masterwork tools, they simply fail to describe what is allowed in a vague enough manner such that cheesy players THINK they are being given permission by RAW to handwave it.

And tose players are wrong. The rules state that there's a masterwork tool option for every skill (the general rule), and for some select skills there are special masterwork tools (specific rules), which differ from the general tools in their use limit, or the detail that using a skill without a non-masterwork item carries a penalty. So it's just the specific beats general, as always. The descriptions for the specific exceptions just carry some fluff, as opposed to the writes just writing them as a generic "Disguise Masterwork Tool with only 10 uses"
Why they've included the scale or the climber's kit is a mystery to me tho.
I didn't see any rule about what action is necessary to use these specific tools, or how many hands there are needed for it, so i assume just having them present while doing the task is enough, respectively using them in the action, like opening a lock with the thieving tools in your hands, or climbing while actively using the climber's kit, but that's most probably included in the action needed for the skill anyway.

Now that i'm writing all these assumptions out i kinda see your point, tho

[Diarmuid]

I'd argue it doesn't really break verisimilitude more than anything else in the game. :smallconfused: I don't see how people coming up with their own variations of masterwork tools break the flow of the game more than a robot that summons souls as magic items or something. Even in the game I'm in right now across characters everyone has their own unique little things that aren't that out there:

Pack of Business Cards - Technically 4 MW Tools, but business cards for every social occasion, functioning as a MW device for Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information and Intimidate. With varying taglines after the initial introduction; "Won't Sell You Out!" "The Best At What He Does" "Two For One Knee Breaks On Thursdays", etc.

Mountain Treads - There's a guy who's been climbing mountains all the time, so he has grip treads on his boots. Another double, +2 to Balance and Climb.

Secret Blend of Herbs and Spices - +2 Craft (Poisonmaking). Always seems to perk up the dose.

Amulet of Dog Hypnosis - This is a dog biscuit on a piece of string. A really good dog biscuit. +2 Handle Animal.

Wicked Sweet Goggles - Self explanatory. +2 Spot.

Eldritch Sheathe of [Redacted] - Can't post the rest of that here. Long story short it's the guy's sheathe for his weapon and it gives +2 to Iaijutsu Focus. He must of been really angry when he got that made.

Workman's Hammer - Doubler! Can be used for +2 to Intimidate since it looks like it's for breaking faces, or a +2 to Disable Device, since it's actually for breaking everything else.

and lastly, the Arcanolight - A headband-mounted clip-on light combined with a special lens, that illuminates patterns of magic. +2 to Spellcraft and UMD. Perfect for the Artificer on the go.

And that's just a few of the personalized MW Skill items we've got flying around. None of them seem that far fetched to me (except maybe the dog biscuit, but that's hilarious so it's ok). I believe the rules are intentionally vague so you can do the same, and come up with something appropriate rather than being adamant about what kind of tool interacts with what skill. But uhh, yeah. Most people I know reflavor everything from races to class features, given how zany DnD at it's core is in the first place, so I don't really see the issue with the rules "smacking" of anything.

Thank you for those interesting examples, and while cool you have actually done a fine job of bringing the OP's problems to light.

Business Cards - Are thes expendable? How long do they take to be remade? What skill crafter is required to get more when you're out?

Mountain Treads - Do these cost double because they impact 2 skills? Do they instead cost 2.5 because like a similar magic item would? Do they take up your boot slot?

Spices - Again, expendable? How many uses?

Amulet/Goggles - These sound magical, but the whole point of the tools is that they're mundane.

Arcanolight - Again, magical? If so what type does it radiate with Detect Magic? Does it take up your helm slot?

While these things certainly can be worked out with a DM, not having any precedents to go on opens up a lot of room for disagreeing on various points and bringing tension/arguments where they really dont need to be.

[Tyndmyr]

Thank you for those interesting examples, and while cool you have actually done a fine job of bringing the OP's problems to light.

Business Cards - Are thes expendable? How long do they take to be remade? What skill crafter is required to get more when you're out?

Mountain Treads - Do these cost double because they impact 2 skills? Do they instead cost 2.5 because like a similar magic item would? Do they take up your boot slot?

Spices - Again, expendable? How many uses?

Amulet/Goggles - These sound magical, but the whole point of the tools is that they're mundane.

Arcanolight - Again, magical? If so what type does it radiate with Detect Magic? Does it take up your helm slot?

While these things certainly can be worked out with a DM, not having any precedents to go on opens up a lot of room for disagreeing on various points and bringing tension/arguments where they really dont need to be.

Er, but you do have precedents. That's why you have the disguise kit and things.

Anything with charges, I'll do 10 charges on, for example. Nice, easy, follows precedent, is priced according to the rules, and is used as a normal human would use that item(usually as part of the check).

[Terazul]

Thank you for those interesting examples, and while cool you have actually done a fine job of bringing the OP's problems to light.

Business Cards - Are thes expendable? How long do they take to be remade? What skill crafter is required to get more when you're out?

Mountain Treads - Do these cost double because they impact 2 skills? Do they instead cost 2.5 because like a similar magic item would? Do they take up your boot slot?

Spices - Again, expendable? How many uses?

Amulet/Goggles - These sound magical, but the whole point of the tools is that they're mundane.

Arcanolight - Again, magical? If so what type does it radiate with Detect Magic? Does it take up your helm slot?

While these things certainly can be worked out with a DM, not having any precedents to go on opens up a lot of room for disagreeing on various points and bringing tension/arguments where they really dont need to be.

Business Cards I actually have a pack of 50. 10 general ones that I have written different sayings on for each skill, and another 10 that have yet to have additional information filled in. I usually end up getting them back. Probably forgery. Are there rules for making the tools to begin with, or are you just adding a layer of needless complexity?

Mountain Treads, MW tools don't take up any slots. Not an issue. Yes, it is just two different MW tools labeled as one item.

Spices, as many as necessary, just like a spell component pouch has infinite guano. Or you could make it 10, if you want.

Goggles, they're goggles. Are things like a telescope magical now? The Amulet is the same thing as holding a carrot on a stick in front of a horse. Seriously.

Arcanolight does exactly what it says it does. It has a special lens that lets you see magic stuff easier. Not anymore magical than say, a Crystal Longsword. Neat though. If you want it could be a pocket encyclopedia to all things magical. Bam, same results. No, it doesn't function as a miner's helmet. It does exactly what it says it does, nothing more.

Most of this stuff is both trivial, and easily answered, and again, not an issue unless you make it one by trying to add on rules that don't apply to the situation to begin with. Masterwork tools for each skill exists. They add a +2 favorable circumstance bonus. Some specific tools have a limited number of uses, most do not. That's it. The only ambiguity is when you start claiming it can do something else, and then start questioning why that is the case.

[Chronos]

The rules never actually say that there's a masterwork tool for every skill. The way I interpret that rule, is that if there exists a masterwork tool for a skill, and if you're not sure how much to charge for it, 50 GP is a reasonable price for it. But there's no guarantee that the tool exists at all.

[Tyndmyr]

The rules never actually say that there's a masterwork tool for every skill. The way I interpret that rule, is that if there exists a masterwork tool for a skill, and if you're not sure how much to charge for it, 50 GP is a reasonable price for it. But there's no guarantee that the tool exists at all.

That's not what the skill says.


Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

This means that, the "if any" is referring to skills. You can come up with a tool(such as a computer) that does not map well to any D&D skill. Such a thing is obviously not appropriate, and the caveat allows the DM to say no to the tool "stuffed rabbit" that has no related D&D skills it would logically improve.

This does not negate the existence of the tools that DO provide a bonus in any way.

Also on creating masterwork items:


Creating Masterwork Items

You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

Since specific trumps general, the specific price trumps the general price, but tool is even explicitly mentioned here. So, you make masterwork tools using a craft check at DC 20. This is RAW.

[Diarmuid]

@Terazul - There are indeed precedents. But those precedents are far from consistent...which in turn makes them not terribly "precedenty". Disguise Kit and and Healers Kit both have expendable uses, but MW Thieves' Tools and Instruments are unlimited and cost double the kits.

I'd say you could simply double the price for "unlimited" but that doesnt account for the Thieves' Tools being applicable to two skills and the Instrument only being applicable to a single skill.

And while you say that MW tools are slotless, I would again use the Thieves' tools and the Instrument which occupy your "weapon" and or "shield" space.

The other questions of what kinds of actions are required to use the various tools has still not been brought up.

[Tyndmyr]

Note that Arms and Equipment also provides a variety of other RAW examples such as a Healers Kit and swimmer's gear.

The action thing? You're using the tool to do the action. That's precedent for all of them. No MW tool increases the time of the action for the check.

[Terazul]

@Terazul - There are indeed precedents. But those precedents are far from consistent...which in turn makes them not terribly "precedenty". Disguise Kit and and Healers Kit both have expendable uses, but MW Thieves' Tools and Instruments are unlimited and cost double the kits.

I'd say you could simply double the price for "unlimited" but that doesnt account for the Thieves' Tools being applicable to two skills and the Instrument only being applicable to a single skill.

And while you say that MW tools are slotless, I would again use the Thieves' tools and the Instrument which occupy your "weapon" and or "shield" space.

The other questions of what kinds of actions are required to use the various tools has still not been brought up.

Fair enough, as far as crafting is concerned, though crafting for anything not involving the big 3 (armor, weapon, alchemy, and trapmaking I guess) are rather vague, but that's another issue altogether.

The thieves tools are priced in a manner similar to simply buying two seperate MW tools. Instrument is legitimately odd. I see nothing indicating they take up your weapon and shield slot other than that they would presumably be in your hands if you are using Disable Device or Open Lock. As for the action, they are used as part of the skill check itself. Obviously if you are using a Masterwork Instrument for the bonus, you are playing it. I will concede that some of the rules are a little fuzzy, but I firmly believe there is more than enough available precedent for such things to denounce any claims of "shenanigans".

[Inspector]

While these things certainly can be worked out with a DM, not having any precedents to go on opens up a lot of room for disagreeing on various points and bringing tension/arguments where they really dont need to be.

Yes. Exactly. Thank you.


Seriously.

Seriously? Haha; you tell me, "seriously?" You're the one not being serious. Business cards is... well, silly. The opposite of serious. That is not serious.

Does it have to be? No, your game could absolutely have that flavor. But it is not RAW, that is for sure. It is shenanigans with a poorly worded rule.

Nor does it match up at all with the setting. You asked if I lived earth. Yes, although business cards don't work remotely like that except in Japan.

But that is beside the point. Do I live on earth? It's not describing earth! Or any modern setting where business cards exist. Not Greyhawk, or Faerun. Eberron, maybe. If you represented one of the houses or something. But that is still not a masterwork tool; it is the reputation of the house at work, as per the various organization rules.

[zlefin]

i'm gonna go with the much ado about nothing viewpoint.
Also, the gp costs involved are trivial past lvl 2.
I don't see how this is worth a forum argument; rule 0 is very clear.
If you wanna limit unspecified masterworks do so; if others want them in their campaigns let them.
If you think the rules aren't written clearly, feel free to write your own rules for an entire game system without a bunch of us finding problems with them somewhere somehow.

[Diarmuid]

Fair enough, as far as crafting is concerned, though crafting for anything not involving the big 3 (armor, weapon, alchemy, and trapmaking I guess) are rather vague, but that's another issue altogether.

The thieves tools are priced in a manner similar to simply buying two seperate MW tools. Instrument is legitimately odd. I see nothing indicating they take up your weapon and shield slot other than that they would presumably be in your hands if you are using Disable Device or Open Lock. As for the action, they are used as part of the skill check itself. Obviously if you are using a Masterwork Instrument for the bonus, you are playing it. I will concede that some of the rules are a little fuzzy, but I firmly believe there is more than enough available precedent for such things to denounce any claims of "shenanigans".

Thanks for acceding at least a couple of points.

As for the action, I agree that for most things (perform, open lock, disable device) the action is the skill check, but I think I was more thinking along the lines of a special books that provide bonuses to skill checks. 6 seconds is forever in the world of a D&D character, but I'm just not seeing a mid battle check of a special book to determine what kind of magical beast that is and what it's special defenses are occurring in 6 seconds. The same applies when I see people talk about their special balancing poles for tumbling...yet they want to do it mid combat with weapons in both hands.

Perhaps I'm putting too much real world emphasis on it and if so, I'll take that criticism. My group tries our best to avoid real world physics or logic when it isnt necessary, but if everyone at the table scrunches up their faces in the "ehhh, that just doesnt sound right" we usually figure out how best to work it out and if it's taking too long the DM will make a ruling he/she feels most fair at the time and we can discuss it at length at some point after the combat/session.

[Inspector]

I don't see how this is worth a forum argument

In a game where custom +skill magic items aren't allowed? Yeah, it is a big deal. Especially to, say, a sorc Incantatrix trying to get spellcraft up.

And don't say the small gold value makes this trivial. It makes it MORE important, because it makes it a really cheap +2. If we were talking about an epic costing item, this would matter less, not more.


6 seconds is forever in the world of a D&D character, but I'm just not seeing a mid battle check of a special book to determine what kind of magical beast that is and what it's special defenses are occurring in 6 seconds. The same applies when I see people talk about their special balancing poles for tumbling...yet they want to do it mid combat with weapons in both hands.

YES. Yes to both these points.

[Terazul]

In a game where custom +skill magic items aren't allowed? Yeah, it is a big deal. Especially to, say, a sorc Incantatrix trying to get spellcraft up.

And don't say the small gold value makes this trivial. It makes it MORE important, because it makes it a really cheap +2. If we were talking about an epic costing item, this would matter less, not more.

YES. Yes to both these points.

Ok then, let's try this again.

One, what's your problem with masterwork tools, other than they are supposedly vague regarding their use and what skills are available.

Two, what's your supposed fix for this "problem".

Because all I've really seen is "There's no precedent and it's cheesy!" when there's plenty of precedent, and it's really not. Especially given your only rebuttal when given perfectly reasonable explanations is the equivalent of "nu-uh, because I wouldn't allow it".

Also, that seriously wasn't even at you; It was in reference to the idea that a telescope or carrot on a stick were somehow magical. I would suggest calming down.

*Edit*@Diarmuid

Yes and no, at the realistic point of view. For some things it's obviously silly to let someone pull out their vaulting pole for their leap attack. For other things, like a cloak or something that helps you tumble, aren't too far fetched. I think players (and DMs) have a tendency to get caught up on the word "mundane", forgetting that it means something different in the DnD world. But eh, it also really depends. By RAW, if you wanted to do something like, use a book as part of a skill check, you should have to spend the action to grab it out of your Bag/Haversack/etc, then the other action to actually perform the skill check, unless you have a catch-all encyclopedia or some other object always in your hands. Alternatively, sneak up on the monster and do it beforehand. But personally, it doesn't break verisimilitude for me (as a player, or a DM) for a stock-wizard to whip a small monster guide out of his cloak, making the check, and stowing it away; he does the same thing rifling through hundreds of components in a tiny pouch all the time.

[Inspector]

when given perfectly reasonable explanations

Replace "perfectly reasonable" with "outrageously unreasonable, ridiculous, and silly."

Business cards. Business cards.

My solution? My solution is that RAW, the only available masterwork tools are the ones listed and anything else is a house rule.

And if I am the DM, my method for approving houserules say no business cards. And no I-can-use-it-one-handed-in-combat knowledge books. Maybe - maybe - a very heavy book for each knowledge skill that requires 2d4 minutes to help with an out-of-combat knowledge check. (seriously, get out the monster manual, have your friend swing a nerf bat at you, and try to look up a monster in "combat." It isn't possible; certainly not in the non-action a standard knowledge check is. And not in a 6 second standard action. And a real book would be larger and more complex.) No "tumble poles" that can be used in combat to avoid opportunity attacks while wielding two weapons.

In short, no handwaving. No silliness. If you want to houserule in an item, you have to actually come up with a way to explain it such that it makes sense. You don't get a free pass because you choose to interpret a poorly written rule to mean you have RAW carte blanche to handwave away any semblance of logic.

NOTE: I am mad at the rule, and mad at people in general for not calling shenanigans on this. I'm not mad at anyone specific here. A little confused on people saying silly things and not admitting they're silly, but not mad.

[Terazul]

The problem is your entire argument hinges on the word "silly".

Your definition of "silly" seems to be very different from mine, and you have not indicated what exactly it entails. You continue to state that the business cards are this "silly", or "unreasonable", or "ridiculous", without stating why other than the fact that you don't like it. You claim nobody does that, and yet every job I've ever had, every office I've ever been into, people have business cards, and they are used exactly how I use them; To spread influence. Whether that be intrigue, misdirection, or intimidation. Heck, you even gave an example of a society in which they function above and beyond that. How can you still call them "silly"?

[jaybird]

Replace "perfectly reasonable" with "outrageously unreasonable, ridiculous, and silly."

Business cards. Business cards.

How in the world is presenting your credentials as X "silly"? If anything, it's realistic - it's certainly how many social interactions in real life, particularly involving Diplo, begin.

[Seharvepernfan]

I think the "Masterwork tools" were listed in the PHB in case any DMs decided they wanted a certain skill to have a tool that would grant a bonus, and the price given is a good base.

I certainly don't allow tools for every other skill, except in certain situations, like camouphlage clothes that grant a +2 bonus to hide in a specific terrain or forest or whatever.

[sonofzeal]

It may be a little late but... have you tried approaching the issue as a problem to be solved, rather than an aggrievance to be smote? What I mean is, the effort you've put into writing this thread is probably greater than the effort of coming up with a plausible tool for every skill. Some may be expendable, some may take time to use, but those are all problems that can be solved. So... why not work on solving them yourself, rather than complaining about the injustice of WotC not writing down every single little nonmagical object that could possibly exist in D&D?

[dgnslyr]

Maybe for those Masterwork Items of Knowledge(Stuff), you have a largish, comprehensive encyclopedia (or set of encylcopedias) that you can spend an evening thumbing through and gain a bit of extra knowledge on the subject. Then, when you're in combat, you can think to yourself, what did that Tome of Polycephalids say about fire-breathing cryohydras? And you get to make your knowledge check, and maybe you remember, and maybe you don't. Doesn't sound too far off, does it?

[Chronos]

I reiterate, there's nothing in the rules that says that every skill has a masterwork tool for it. If you want to come up with a tool for every skill at your table, and your DM agrees, fine, but that's your houserule. I'd go so far as to admit that it's an officially-condoned houserule, even, but it's still not actually in the rules that every skill must have a masterwork tool.

[Zale]

I am amazed that anyone would worry so much over something that merely confers a +2 circumstance bonus to a skill check..

There's so many more broken things in D&D to worry about. Ignore the leaking sink and look at the gaping hole in the roof.

[Inspector]

How can you still call them "silly"?

Because you're putting a bauble which has no effect whatsoever on the outcome of a conversation on the same level as using masterwork lockpicks versus regular lockpicks. That is silly. Unless you think that it really does have a comparable effect to hand someone a business card. In which case you're... well, you're not correct. I'll put it that way.

[sonofzeal]

Because you're putting a bauble which has no effect whatsoever on the outcome of a conversation on the same level as using masterwork lockpicks versus regular lockpicks. That is silly. Unless you think that it really does have a comparable effect to hand someone a business card. In which case you're... well, you're not correct. I'll put it that way.
You sound awfully confident in that. Tell me, how much experience do you have with lockpicks, "masterwork" or otherwise? If you've got a decent set that can potentially unlock any lock, how much improvement would you actually get out of a premium set, if it's still the same basic tools for the same basic situations?

Why do you think that's such a massive difference, but that a professional and well-presented business card wouldn't give people a favourable impression of you?

[ericgrau]

RAW is that a masterwork tool gives a bonus to a related skill if there is such a tool. It does not state whether or not there is such a tool for every single skill, or even that the number of related skills is exactly 1. It could be 0 (maybe it's good for something that isn't a skill) or multiple. In general this issue comes from the habit some players have of interpreting ambiguous rules in the way most favorable to them.

I see this rule as intentionally ambiguous so that gaming groups can fill in whatever is appropriate. So really it's more of a guideline; a quick generic answer to fit whenever reasonable so you don't have to think about it too much. A similar rule in the DMG and PHB is the DM fudge rule where it suggests a +2 or -2 circumstance bonus due to something that affects your odds of completing the task in a favorable or unfavorable way. In fact if you need something bigger than a small tool I wouldn't use the listed price and weight, I'd estimate something else. But it's fine for a typical random little tool.

As for the lockpicks, the masterwork version is whatever makes it easier to pick the lock. I'm being intentionally circular in my logic here, because you really don't need to know about lock picks to play the game. If you really want to know the last time I skimmed the topic (IIRC) it is actually helpful to pre-make multiple lock picks of various sizes and styles for different jobs. A set of masterwork thieves tools would then be a more complete set of picks and so on with a larger number of options rather than the minimal set. For anything else, it's up to your DM. That's the whole point of fudging it and moving on. Maybe one thinks business cards are ridiculous and another one will say "ok, the NPC likes them, +2 to your roll." I do think a lot of people's attempts are pretty silly and the DM shouldn't allow everything; I hope players don't get mad and insist and argue that their tool must be allowed by RAW at the gaming table.

[Inspector]

rather than complaining about the injustice of WotC not writing down every single little nonmagical object that could possibly exist in D&D?

Again, my problem isn't that they didn't write something. It's that what they did write was vague enough that people feel free to entertain nonsense like business cards and call it RAW.

I'm OK with there being nonsense house rules, or even sensible house rules. I'm not so keen on every how-to-boost-spellcraft thread says, "get a masterwork tool; it's totally in the rules and everything," when, if we're all honest, the rules don't really have such a thing. They just sort of vaguely imply something that sort of encourages house ruling. If those same threads said, "ask your DM to house rule a MW tool, like this vague rule sort of says you can."

[Medic!]

There are much worse things out there that are RAW. In the immortal words of Captain Barbossa: [RAW] are more like "guidelines" than actual rules...

As a person who absolutely thrives on clear-cut concise written rules myself, I can safely say that people who thrive on clear-cut concise written rules only do so because it makes them rediculously easy to circumnavigate. Hostilities often arise when someone else circumnavigates those rules without acknowledging them. It's like going through all the effort to find a "loophole" then having some jerk-wad 3 yr old go "It's this way because I say so."

[Inspector]

You sound awfully confident in that. Tell me, how much experience do you have with lockpicks, "masterwork" or otherwise?

None, but I do take apart computers for a living, and I can tell you with 100% confidence that masterwork tools help with that.

But business cards having a comparable effect - in a medieval fantasy setting at that?!? In a silly game, sure. In fact, it's hilarious. (actually, yeah, someone should write the Munchkin people. That one is a winner.) But as a serious answer, no. o, sir.

If a business card has any effect (and it wouldn't be a business card, it would be the official seal of house so-and-so), it is banking on the reputation of an organization. No benefit to having a card absent that context. I thought everyone knew that. (plus, business cards have to, you know, plausibly exist such that NPC's won't just be confused) And even then, it wouldn't be a universal +2, it would only work on people who both knew and respected the organization.

Ericgrau:

That is a thoughtful and appropriate response to the rule.




As a person who absolutely thrives on clear-cut concise written rules myself, I can safely say that people who thrive on clear-cut concise written rules only do so because it makes them rediculously easy to circumnavigate. Hostilities often arise when someone else circumnavigates those rules without acknowledging them. It's like going through all the effort to find a "loophole" then having some jerk-wad 3 yr old go "It's this way because I say so."

You're on to something, there. But it doesn't have to depend on nefarious purposes. Whether you're circumnavigating or just plain skillfully navigating, it does take skill. Which, yeah, exactly, it offends when that happens

[georgie_leech]

If a business card has any effect (and it wouldn't be a business card, it would be the official seal of house so-and-so), it is banking on the reputation of an organization. No benefit to having a card absent that context. I thought everyone knew that. (plus, business cards have to, you know, plausibly exist such that NPC's won't just be confused) And even then, it wouldn't be a universal +2, it would only work on people who both knew and respected the organization.



...You are aware that personal business cards exist, right? Nothing to do with an organization, solely for an individual? It plays on a natural behavior patern, that we tend to believe people who look like they're important or good at what they do, regardless of whether they are. In this case, a small piece of cardboard or paper or parchment or whatever that looks incredibly official, as if the person holding it is important enough to waste money on such a triviality. Is it a huge effect? No, but it's there. Thus why a well-made business card gives a +2 instead of automatic success.

[Inspector]

...You are aware that personal business cards exist, right? Nothing to do with an organization, solely for an individual?

I'm aware they exist. And I'm aware they depend on context and social expectations. I've met people who think they work like they've been described here, and those people were not bright. I feel like I am in the movie Step Brothers. You people are advocating the Prestige Worldwide method with a straight face.

Actually, I've just moved past mad. This is now officially hilarious.

[georgie_leech]

I'm aware they exist. And I'm aware they depend on context and social expectations. I've met people who think they work like they've been described here, and those people were not bright. I feel like I am in the movie Step Brothers. You people are advocating the Prestige Worldwide method with a straight face.

Actually, I've just moved past mad. This is now officially hilarious.

No Prestige needed. All that's required is the person be sucseptible to the idea that some form of identification means they are important/competent/valuable. Bonus points for acting supremely confident and insinuating the target is idiotic for not knowing who they are ("All the in-the-know guards know me! :smallwink:). All are tried and true methods of convincing people you are who you say you're not, or just more important/desirable than you really are. NONE of those techniques requires you to actually be all that great or influential.

[Shadowleaf]

I'm fairly certain I would be more enclined to enter a business relation with someone presenting me a business card that said "John Smith, Certified Trader" than I would with someone who didn't. The business card guy had a +2 modifier that the other guy did not.

That being said, if you don't like the business card idea, use another tool. Fancy clothes work for +2 to Diplomacy, a scary-looking helmet or helmet ornament works for +2 Intimidate, a holy symbol for the God of Truth Telling works for +2 Bluff, and so forth.

It seems to me that the vagueness of the masterwork tool description is to allow the DM to allow/disallow a "silly" masterwork items, i.e. a bunny rabbit giving +2 Spellcraft. I do, however, it is both RAW and RAI to have a masterwork tool for every skill.

[sonofzeal]

None, but I do take apart computers for a living, and I can tell you with 100% confidence that masterwork tools help with that.
I also take apart computers regularly. And as long as I have the tool that does the job and it's in working order, I don't care if it's held together with duct tape or gold-embossed with a certified seal of excellence on it. Heck, I've fixed my personal computer with bolt cutters and chopsticks, and in those instances they were each respectively the right tool for the job. I do agree that working without the proper tools, well, that can be frustrating as heck. But the difference between a full set of tools and a full set of more expensive tools? Slim to none.

A +2 circumstance bonus on a skillcheck is a small thing in D&D. It's a consolation prize. Something in the situation is now tilted slightly in your favour, but it's neither an auto-success nor even a game changer. It's just an edge.

Handing someone something that looks like official documentation, even when it's ultimately meaningless, can help impress them. It's not the automatic success things like the Milgram experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) might have you believe, and it isn't necessarily a game-changer either, but it's an edge over someone who shows up empty handed. I think a +2 is perfect for that. Heck, a well-made document with an impressive-enough title might warrant a far larger bonus in a society not inured to such things!

[JellyPooga]

The OP does have a point regarding the rule being vague. The ruling for MW Tools states only that there exists tools of high quality and that some of those tools are applicable to Skill checks (but implies that not all tools are applicable). It doesn't say whether or not those tools should apply to all skill checks with the skill in question (like a MW Instrument clearly applies to all uses of the Perform skill relevant to that instrument, whilst a Merchants Scale only applies to Appraise checks that specifically involve weight), it doesn't say anything about variable weight (which it clearly should...a shovel is obviously larger and heavier than a hacksaw), limited uses (like the Disguise kit) isn't mentioned and it doesn't specify anything about how such tools are to be used (e.g. a book of arcane knowledge may clearly give a bonus to Knowledge: Arcana, but unless you've memorised the entire book, using it as a reference book is going to take longer than a "normal" Know:Arcana check).

However, his complaint that the rule should have said something along the lines of "work out the details with your DM" is unjustified. The rule is vague because it must be, due to the nature of the entry in the equipment list. They could have put in different entries for "Limited Use MW Tool", "Heavy MW Tool" and so forth, but it would all have been describing items that have comparable effects. That they decided to lump all non-specified tools into one entry in the equipment list was, perhaps, a mistake but don't think it was an unreasonable decision. That the details would have to be adjudicated by the DM goes without question...the implication of this is in the wording of the text;


It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any)

That "(if any)" combined with the "related" means that the DM is well within his rights to tell a player that his tool is not applicable to the given circumstances. It is implied that a player cannot buy a MW Tool that always applies to a given skill check (e.g. to use the controversial "business cards" suggested earlier in this thread, those business cards may help you Bluff a noble into thinking you're a well respected merchant, but aren't going to help you seduce the tavern wench with lies about your career as a dragon slayer), but must rather buy their MW Tool (whatever it is) and the DM must decide whether it applies to a given check. For Example:

A Player buys some MW Padded Shoes.
That player, in the course of play, wants to sneak up on a guard. The DM asks for a Move Silently check.
Player: "I have MW Padded Shoes, can I have a circumstance bonus?)
DM: "Yeah, go for it"

Later on, that same player falls from a roof onto rough, rocky ground. The DM asks for a Tumble check to negate falling damage.
Player:"Would my Padded Shoes help me here?
DM: Thinks for a bit "Yeah, I guess it might, sure"

Later still, the Player is trying to cross a 'nightingale floor' silently. Again, DM wants a Move Silently check.
Player: "Padded Shoes?"
DM: "Not this time, this is more intuition and luck than damping your footfalls. No bonus"

The specific MW Tools listed in the Equipment list (Climbing Kit, etc.) will always apply to the skills listed in their descriptions. A MW Tool bought under the generic heading is always subject to DM approval as to whether it applies to a check or not.

[Tyndmyr]

Because you're putting a bauble which has no effect whatsoever on the outcome of a conversation on the same level as using masterwork lockpicks versus regular lockpicks. That is silly. Unless you think that it really does have a comparable effect to hand someone a business card. In which case you're... well, you're not correct. I'll put it that way.

Depends on the conversation. If it's a casual chat with friends, business cards would not be relevant. That said, there's not likely to be any roll required for such a situation.

If it's, say, gathering information about something that could be related to business(ie...basically anything), business cards are quite helpful. And that does map pretty obviously to a Gather Information check. Having them be consumable makes sense, as does charging more for each additional skill you have them used on(but adding proportionately more charges). Using more cards is going to cost you a lil bit.

It's exactly how business cards are used in real life, and yes, it can affect on the results of your conversation.

Diplomacy? Yes. Social status is HUGE in determining the outcome of deal making, and how you present yourself is a big part of that. Excellent business cards can be a minor, but favorable point for how you present yourself. For a slightly more dramatized example of this, watch American Psycho. If they don't fit your setting, that's another matter entirely, and you are criticizing them for entirely the wrong reasons.

Here's a tool that one of my players has used previously: Padded joints under your armor for +2 to tumble. Is that really all that silly? Under-armor padding isn't at all unusual, and having the best padding has got to make that armored tumble a little less awkward.


That "(if any)" combined with the "related" means that the DM is well within his rights to tell a player that his tool is not applicable to the given circumstances. It is implied that a player cannot buy a MW Tool that always applies to a given skill check (e.g. to use the controversial "business cards" suggested earlier in this thread, those business cards may help you Bluff a noble into thinking you're a well respected merchant, but aren't going to help you seduce the tavern wench with lies about your career as a dragon slayer), but must rather buy their MW Tool (whatever it is) and the DM must decide whether it applies to a given check. For Example:

A Player buys some MW Padded Shoes.
That player, in the course of play, wants to sneak up on a guard. The DM asks for a Move Silently check.
Player: "I have MW Padded Shoes, can I have a circumstance bonus?)
DM: "Yeah, go for it"

Later on, that same player falls from a roof onto rough, rocky ground. The DM asks for a Tumble check to negate falling damage.
Player:"Would my Padded Shoes help me here?
DM: Thinks for a bit "Yeah, I guess it might, sure"

Later still, the Player is trying to cross a 'nightingale floor' silently. Again, DM wants a Move Silently check.
Player: "Padded Shoes?"
DM: "Not this time, this is more intuition and luck than damping your footfalls. No bonus"

Padded Shoes are RAW, and are found in Arms and Equipment. They always apply to your Move Silently check, and carry no other bonuses. Anything else is house ruling.

[Eldest]

If it matters, I would agree with the masterwork lockpicks. I have some experience with them, and having a better set makes it a lot easier to open simple locks. If you make them yourself, so much the better.
I fail to see the difficulty with the buisness cards. If I walk up to somebody in my work ID, and say "hey, I'm a maintanance guy, I'm here to check the water pipes. We've had some complaints about leaks here." I would be much more likely to be believed than if I said the same thing without the ID. If I was a banker, I would need a buisness card for that sort of thing. And if you think having a buisness card is too silly, instead just change it in your mind to say "a small peice of identification that says I am who I say I am" because really that's all it is.

[JellyPooga]

Padded Shoes are RAW, and are found in Arms and Equipment. They always apply to your Move Silently check, and carry no other bonuses. Anything else is house ruling.

Ok, I didn't know that...it was just an example. Anything else is just nit-picking :smallannoyed:

[Inspector]

I also take apart computers regularly. And as long as I have the tool that does the job and it's in working order, I don't care if it's held together with duct tape or gold-embossed with a certified seal of excellence on it. Heck, I've fixed my personal computer with bolt cutters and chopsticks, and in those instances they were each respectively the right tool for the job. I do agree that working without the proper tools, well, that can be frustrating as heck. But the difference between a full set of tools and a full set of more expensive tools? Slim to none.

Speaking as someone who transitioned from taking apart computers regularly to someone who takes them apart for a living, I can tell you there is a substantial difference between the two. For the former, the $5.99 generic set from Fry's did the job just fine. For the latter, I learned to appreciate that having a full set of quality-headed, longneck and shortneck, magnetized drivers (especially that!), plastic spudger, JiS heads, and so on cut my time per job in half. What you are describing isn't the difference between a tool set and a MW tool set; it's the difference between a MW set and a... gold plated MW set.


A +2 circumstance bonus on a skillcheck is a small thing in D&D.

I disagree. That depends, to a large degree, on the level. And it also is not a small difference when you're trying to squeeze out every last point.


Handing someone something that looks like official documentation, even when it's ultimately meaningless, can help impress them.

Listen, I don't want to come across as saying that there is no such thing as documentation, or that there couldn't be such a thing (not business cards, but an equivalent object) in a medieval high fantasy setting. (although this is really more the domain of bluff than diplomacy!) My point is that there are certain - highly limited - contexts in which that sort of thing might work. Actually, the last few posts here do a good job of explaining this.

{Scrubbed}



*And, also crucial to my point: I specifically posted this thread because posters in many threads on this board and others seem to think that the rules told them that they get a +2 tool for every skill, and that it should work the way the business cards were said to work. I.e., in a handwave-type way that doesn't have to conform to logic or reality.

[Drathmar]

*And, also crucial to my point: I specifically posted this thread because posters in many threads on this board and others seem to think that the rules told them that they get a +2 tool for every skill, and that it should work the way the business cards were said to work. I.e., in a handwave-type way that doesn't have to conform to logic or reality.

If it is not effecting your own game why do you even care what other people do? You seem to be getting a little bent out of shape over other people interpreting this rule in a different way than you.

My personal opinion on this is that by RAW and RAI you can get a +2 to a skill check for any skill with a masterwork tool, however the exact SPECIFICS by both for unspecified ones is left up to the DM.

So saying you can get a +2 masterwork tool for any skill is RAW and RAI...

Whether they are consumable, and the time it takes to use them, would be up to each specific DM.

So a DM saying 'no you can't have a +2 to spellcraft masterwork tool' would go against the rules completely (he's the DM however so that would be a houserule)

While a DM saying 'ok you can have it, but it would only have 10 uses and would take 2 rounds to actually use' would be fine.

[Terazul]

Listen, I don't want to come across as saying that there is no such thing as documentation, or that there couldn't be such a thing (not business cards, but an equivalent object) in a medieval high fantasy setting. (although this is really more the domain of bluff than diplomacy!) My point is that there are certain - highly limited - contexts in which that sort of thing might work.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

See, you keep comparing the difference between using a business card, in an appropriate situation, using the one purchased separately for the appropriate skill (I did in fact buy a separate set for EACH ONE), to get a +2 bonus to the social skill check, as the difference between finger painting and crafting the Mona Lisa. Nobody is claiming it causes extreme changes in NPC reaction other than you. They are not mind control. I never insisted they were. Please stop insisting that I did. Like, those last few posts? That's what we've been saying this whole thread. Which is y'know, not "highly limited", but rather the exact context they're supposed to be used in.

Diplomacy is if I'm telling the truth. Bluff is if I'm in disguise and I'm not. Gather Information is also to let people get in contact with me (we do have a home base they can reach using the address). This is not that crazy, and the more you post the more I see you getting upset because they're in a "medieval" setting. It's a setting with robots, four armed insect men, and let us not forget, Wizards who bend reality to their whim. No, I don't think a credentials card is that absurd, given that context.

[DementedFellow]

{Scrubbed}

I think it would be good to take a step back and notice that the players are there to have fun. To break out of their normal routine and leave the rigors of life behind for an afternoon. Nitpicking about something because it doesn't make sense or is "silly" is counterproductive to enjoyment, especially when what is being argued over is a +2 modifier to a skill check. Heaven forbid a character want to get a +5 sword or even take advantage of Skill Focus for that oh so sexy +3 bonus.

Regardless if you think so or not, disallowing certain items carte blanche under the guise of "it's game-breaking (or verisimilitude-breaking)" when it is really more a case of "I don't like this," it hurts their experience and potentially can hamper their character.

How would you handle a Truenamer? Would they be able to get a masterwork tool to help them out?

[Medic!]

How would you handle a Truenamer? Would they be able to get a masterwork tool to help them out?

Binomial Nomenclature For Dummies flash cards! YES!

[Demons_eye]

Truenamers are for Dummies?

[BIGMamaSloth]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You had to link me to TVtropes didn't ya? That website has the wikipedia affect of jumping from article to article to so much worse of a degree. I was on ther an hour and a half and I have no knowledje of any of what I read. :smalltongue:

On topic:
OP, If you have a problem with these rules, don't use them. But don't stop anyone else from enjoying them because you feel there vague and poorly written. If it wouldn't fly at your table don't let it.

[Inspector]

the exact context they're supposed to be used in

Again, no. The diplomacy skill covers every interaction with every NPC. Business cards cover only one type of interaction, even if we stretch things to say they're setting-appropriate. That interaction is: Businessmen of a particular economic class and type interacting with clients or other businessmen. You're adventurers for Pete's sake, not the specific kind of tradesmen with cards. You pull out a business card in the wrong social context, and people are going to think you're either a moron, a d-bag, or both.

Now, as for the other posters. You're reading me wrong if you think I'm against running a silly game. What I'm against is that he is claiming that this isn't silly at all, and business cards really can give an advantage in real life to every social interaction, and that this advantage is qualitatively comparable to a set of masterwork tools. This claim is silly. If he'd just admit it is silly, we wouldn't have anything to argue about. You want to run a silly game, go ahead; it doesn't bother me.

Cheese isn't always about the power level involved. It's about how much you're cheating/stretching/being dishonest/etc to gain that power.

Oh, and the claim that a +2 bonus is small is a non-sequitur. It doesn't matter to the point being argued. What matters is whether the gain is comparable to that of masterwork tools. Which, it isn't; not even close.

[Merellis]

So you think he's doing it wrong and you want him to admit it?

I think you're hitting the point where all parties should just take a step back and realize that they're arguing over a Masterwork Tool being a Business card and taking said argument far too seriously considering this is a game.

Though I do have to say, I'd love to have a business card that says "Merellis, Class-Z Adventurer, Licensed to Slay" as a melee, and maybe use it as an intimidate against people who can read and wish to fight me.

Of course, that would require an adventurers guild, actual Class specifications and the DM to just take a breath and go for it.

But damn it would be worth it.

[georgie_leech]

Again, no. The diplomacy skill covers every interaction with every NPC. Business cards cover only one type of interaction, even if we stretch things to say they're setting-appropriate. That interaction is: Businessmen of a particular economic class and type interacting with clients or other businessmen. You're adventurers for Pete's sake, not the specific kind of tradesmen with cards. You pull out a business card in the wrong social context, and people are going to think you're either a moron, a d-bag, or both.

Now, as for the other posters. You're reading me wrong if you think I'm against running a silly game. What I'm against is that he is claiming that this isn't silly at all, and business cards really can give an advantage in real life to every social interaction, and that this advantage is qualitatively comparable to a set of masterwork tools. This claim is silly. If he'd just admit it is silly, we wouldn't have anything to argue about. You want to run a silly game, go ahead; it doesn't bother me.

Cheese isn't always about the power level involved. It's about how much you're cheating/stretching/being dishonest/etc to gain that power.

Oh, and the claim that a +2 bonus is small is a non-sequitur. It doesn't matter to the point being argued. What matters is whether the gain is comparable to that of masterwork tools. Which, it isn't; not even close.

Yes, but few people get as angry with parmesan as compared to Limburger.
And how are you measuring this "gain" or advantage? Is there some other metric beyond each person's own experiences and instincts as a player or DM? If so, I'd love to hear what this impartial benefit-measurement is, so we can finally prove once and for all whether apples or oranges are the tastier fruit!

[Inspector]

and taking said argument far too seriously considering this is a game.

Ah, yeah, argument about whether thing is silly has gotten silly. I see. Gentlemen, we're officially meta at this point.

But point taken, if he wants to believe that isn't silly, then go ahead. I'm on record as believing it is, and that can be enough. Terazul, shall we agree to disagree?

My only point was that the various handbooks and advice threads shouldn't just say "Get a masterwork tool of x" when it isn't as simple as that, given that the actual items don't exist in the books and require houseruling. And arguably, there isn't any way for certain MW tools to even exist, unless you're willing to get silly.

[Tyndmyr]

*And, also crucial to my point: I specifically posted this thread because posters in many threads on this board and others seem to think that the rules told them that they get a +2 tool for every skill, and that it should work the way the business cards were said to work. I.e., in a handwave-type way that doesn't have to conform to logic or reality.

The generic way the entry is written implies that there are all manner of tools available. There is no implication that skills may lack these tools, only that a given tool may not be appropriate for a given skill.

So, the handwave thing does not apply by RAW. You have to have a tool that's logically connected to the skill. That said, I don't think anyone at all has been advocating a handwaved approach.

However, the assumption that +2 tools exist for every skill is quite legitimate, as they are limited only by your ability to think up an applicable skill.


Again, no. The diplomacy skill covers every interaction with every NPC. Business cards cover only one type of interaction, even if we stretch things to say they're setting-appropriate. That interaction is: Businessmen of a particular economic class and type interacting with clients or other businessmen. You're adventurers for Pete's sake, not the specific kind of tradesmen with cards. You pull out a business card in the wrong social context, and people are going to think you're either a moron, a d-bag, or both.

Yeah, but in practice, diplomacy rolls are made for only specific types of interactions. For instance, deal-making is perhaps the biggest type. This is something business cards apply directly and obviously to. The other is adjusting people's opinions of you. Business cards can also, obviously, apply to that. So, yeah, by RAW, business cards make perfect sense.



My only point was that the various handbooks and advice threads shouldn't just say "Get a masterwork tool of x" when it isn't as simple as that, given that the actual items don't exist in the books and require houseruling. And arguably, there isn't any way for certain MW tools to even exist, unless you're willing to get silly.

Guides and advice threads inherently need some level of abstraction. If I say "You might want to take IoT7V", I don't bother to list the prereqs unless the discussion is relevant to it. I assume the player is capable of reading the rules and following them all by himself. It's advice, not a step by step how-to guide for roleplaying.

[Diarmuid]

The crux of the discussion is that sure, there can be an item for every skill, but why do some existing ones cost 100gp vs 50gp, how do you decide if an item should have expendable uses or be permanent? Every MW tool I've ever seen presented has been of the 50gp, permanent basis that requires no additional action/space/etc for use because that involves the least amount of effort/resource expenditure on the part of the player.

But the process should involve some amount of working with the DM to get your idea approved. That's where the idea that "get a +2 item" falls down as the player does not have unilateral control over what items apply to skills.

[Terazul]

Again, no. The diplomacy skill covers every interaction with every NPC.

What I'm against is that he is claiming that this isn't silly at all, and business cards really can give an advantage in real life to every social interaction,. You want to run a silly game, go ahead; it doesn't bother me.



NO I AM NOT.



Yeah, but in practice, diplomacy rolls are made for only specific types of interactions. For instance, deal-making is perhaps the biggest type. This is something business cards apply directly and obviously to. The other is adjusting people's opinions of you. Business cards can also, obviously, apply to that. So, yeah, by RAW, business cards make perfect sense.

Yes, that is correct. In a situation that would be favorable to them, just like every other masterwork tool, they apply.

So yes, Inspector. I'm going to "agree to disagree" because I'm really friggin sick of you putting words in my mouth.

*Edit*: Also, since I'm really tired of the "It's business cards in a medieval setting!" argument:

17th Century Visiting Cards
Certainly by the 17th century visiting cards or visite biletes were in use in Europe where the footmen of the aristocracy or royalty would present the cards to the servants at the home of a host to announce the impending arrival of a distinguished guest. These first cards were roughly the size of a playing card and in their earliest form were also used as all-purpose stationery on which to jot promissory notes or other messages. By the reign of the French King Louis XIV (r. 1643 to 1715), however, visiting cards had become a staple of upper echelon etiquette with a sophisticated system of rules attached to their use.

These cards, as a means of introducing their owners, had a glory all their own, decorated with engraved ornaments and elegant coats of arms. By the 19th century a visiting (or by this time "calling") card was essential to the life of any upper or middle class lady or gentlemen. Each home had a silver card tray, which resided on the hall table along with a pencil and a pad of paper. The cards collected in the tray served as a catalog of those who had visited the household and of the households to which a reciprocal call was due. The giving and receiving of cards, then, was tangible evidence of meeting one's social obligations.
Trade Cards

Trade cards, on the other hand, became popular in London at the beginning of the 17th century at a time when there was no formal numbering system for streets and no well-developed newspaper industry. The trade cards served as a form of advertisement for businesses and also included maps with directions on how to reach the establishment. The earliest monotone trade cards were printed with the woodcut or letterpress method but by 1830 lithography had developed to the point that cards with several shades were used and were, in their own right, small works of art.

Further investigation dates this sort of thing back to as early as the 1400s. It isn't a new concept.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: This seems to be just going around in circles, and has gotten rather hostile on all sides. Thread locked.