Cheesiest use of DMM you can think of?

[Rossebay]

Title says it all. What's the cheesiest use of Divine Metamagic that you guys can name off?

[SirFredgar]

I think that would be Persist Spell. It's the more popular choice of CharOp, for DMM, and I think that might be because of it's so-good-it's cheesy quality.

[Hirax]

Persisted consumptive field and blasphemy or holy word will allow an archivist to kill pretty much anything. Clerics can too, though they'd need to finagle a way to be able to cast both holy word and blasphemy. Extraordinary spell aim or similar could be used to avoid killing yourself. The consumptive field can be cheaply fed with bags of tricks.

[Venger]

read this very short thread for an absolutely hilarious use of DMM and a great comic showing the same.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219349

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That comic is brilliant. The trick with the chickens though is to hold their head in a bucket of water to drop them to 0 hp, so the Consumptive Field kills them. Be sure to start out Commoner 1 for the Chicken Infested flaw, for unlimited free chickens. Consumptive Field won't raise your caster level any higher than 50% above what it was when the spell was cast, but there's no limit to the Str bonus you can get out of it.

As for Holy Word and the like, the greatest abuse of DMM would be with Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, and Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell), preferably via Dragonwrought Kobold to get it before 21st level. An Archivist can use Bone Talismans (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) with Unguent of Timelessness on them to get a pile of turn attempts without even buying any Night Sticks. By spending enough turn undead bone talismans while wearing sandals made from stone slabs, you can boost your caster level high enough to kill anything.

[tyckspoon]

As for Holy Word and the like, the greatest abuse of DMM would be with Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, and Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell), preferably via Dragonwrought Kobold to get it before 21st level.



Spellcraft 20 ranks.

Good luck with that one.

Persistent Spell is the go-to answer. Quicken is pretty good, but hard to call broken compared to Persist. If you can swing permission to use strangely-licensed 3rd parties/Really Bad Ideas, the Kingdoms of Kalamar (IIRC) Irresistable Spell that removes saving throws would be a winner.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Good luck with that one.

Hey, he can get it at level 18.

[HunterOfJello]

read this very short thread for an absolutely hilarious use of DMM and a great comic showing the same.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219349

that's both hilarious and awesome


sometimes i'm afraid that some of the people I play with will find these boards and begin creating characters using mechanics like those.

[dextercorvia]

Persistent Spell. Essentially it is the ability to persist normally unattainable spells. There is also the cost factor. That extra turn attempt is wasted if you use a lower cost metamagic. Also, divine feats have the 1 per turn clause, which means that if you DMM Quicken, then you can't Divine Spell Power on that or your standard action spell. Persistent spells are cast at the beginning of the day, and care less about action economy.

Also, an Aeshkrau Illumian Archivist can persist Bite of the Werebear, and get killer bonus spells.

[Rossebay]

I mean specific examples. Like, DMM: Persist and Consumptive Field.

In-depth stories often make for great examples.

[Hirax]

If you can swing permission to use strangely-licensed 3rd parties/Really Bad Ideas, the Kingdoms of Kalamar (IIRC) Irresistable Spell that removes saving throws would be a winner.

Errata changed it to being a mere +10 to the DC. I agree 100% about KoK though, which is why there should probably be a distinction between 2nd party and 2nd party+KoK. :smallbiggrin: The Villain Design Handbook also contains the stupidly broken swell swap feat, which allows you to spontaneously make a spellcraft check (DC 10+spell level) to swap a prepared spell for any other spell that you know.

[Eldest]

Errata changed it to being a mere +10 to the DC. I agree 100% about KoK though, which is why there should probably be a distinction between 2nd party and 2nd party+KoK. :smallbiggrin: The Villain Design Handbook also contains the stupidly broken swell swap feat, which allows you to spontaneously make a spellcraft check (DC 10+spell level) to swap a prepared spell for any other spell that you know.

And now the Sorcerer goes off to cry tears of bitter shame, because he no longer has a point of existing. Execpt looking better than the Wizard, which is pretty darn easy.

[Randomguy]

that's both hilarious and awesome


sometimes i'm afraid that some of the people I play with will find these boards and begin creating characters using mechanics like those.

You think this is scary? Wait until someone makes a build that revolves around throwing chickens at the enemy.

[Venger]

bucket of water to drop them to 0 hp, so the Consumptive Field kills them

or you could just go with greater consumptive field, that kills anything with ≤9hp so the chickens are autoconsumed



I mean specific examples. Like, DMM: Persist and Consumptive Field.

In-depth stories often make for great examples.
I'd really suggest you read the "HP Drain" thread I linked to, it's sort of one long, involved story about using persistent GCF, the chicken infested flaw, and the gnomish quickrazor to drain NI chickens of their health and give you NI strength and HP to go and kill gods.

I'd quote all the salient posts, but my quotamid would be rather unsightly and would comprise nearly all the posts there anyway. I still think that probably reigns as the cheesiest DMM

DMM "veil of undeath" could be sort of interesting if you really wanted undead immunities but for whatever reason didn't want to be/couldn't be undead

[erikun]

You think this is scary? Wait until someone makes a build that revolves around throwing chickens at the enemy.
Sounds like you're asking for a Drunken Master (proficiency in improvised weapons) Bloodstorm Blade (throw melee weapons and have them return to you). You could even do stuff like use the Mountain Hammer maneuvers; throw chickens at walls and completely ignore hardness.

[Douglas]

DMM "veil of undeath" could be sort of interesting if you really wanted undead immunities but for whatever reason didn't want to be/couldn't be undead
DMM Persist on Veil of Undeath definitely takes the prize for cheesiest use of DMM if you throw common sense out the window and take a strict RAW interpretation of it - a careless writer left out a word when writing that the spell grants immunity to death effects, with the result that it technically by RAW makes you immune to death. Enjoy your 24 hours of being impossible to kill.

[Venger]

DMM Persist on Veil of Undeath definitely takes the prize for cheesiest use of DMM if you throw common sense out the window and take a strict RAW interpretation of it - a careless writer left out a word when writing that the spell grants immunity to death effects, with the result that it technically by RAW makes you immune to death. Enjoy your 24 hours of being impossible to kill.

yep, which was why I suggested it. while the 10 min/lvl duration is usually enough for any one battle, why waste more than 1 8th lvl slot on buffs? just make it an all-day buff burning all your turns, what's better than being invincible?

[Little Brother]

Twice-Betrayer and/or Cheater.

You're welcome.

[SirFredgar]

Ilhenoon (or however you spell that) Cleric 6. Use Heighten Spell and Earth Spell with DMM to boost a single spell to 10th level, then take the Extra Slot feat to gain 9th level spell slots to cast genesis with.

I was just made aware of this trick. It seems pretty cheesy to me.

[Little Brother]

I was just made aware of this trick. It seems pretty cheesy to me.You mean Naenhoon cleric 3. And you use that trick to get a wish super early, to get a ring of three wishes that early, to get infinite wishes, and go from there.

[Aotrs Commander]

I once figured out - with some help - how to make a Lich at ECL 7 for my Pale Master's Undead Leadership using DMM: Persist and the aforemention Consumptibe Field and chickens. (Though the cleric would have bout his chickens, I mean, if he's got enough to make a phylactery, a few week's worth of chickens is nothing...)

Also, that comic was hilarious.

[Rossebay]

or you could just go with greater consumptive field, that kills anything with ≤9hp so the chickens are autoconsumed



I'd really suggest you read the "HP Drain" thread I linked to, it's sort of one long, involved story about using persistent GCF, the chicken infested flaw, and the gnomish quickrazor to drain NI chickens of their health and give you NI strength and HP to go and kill gods.

I'd quote all the salient posts, but my quotamid would be rather unsightly and would comprise nearly all the posts there anyway. I still think that probably reigns as the cheesiest DMM

DMM "veil of undeath" could be sort of interesting if you really wanted undead immunities but for whatever reason didn't want to be/couldn't be undead


I definitely like the thread, and it IS a pretty cheesy use of it...

But I saw no comic. Link me to it?

Either way, good thread. This and Veil are the two winners so far.

[Haron]

I've been snickering all day thanks to this threads chicken slaughtering powerups. Someday I want to try it in a game.
So here I drew a comic for you guys:
I don't know about you, but chickens give me strength! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Vegitto-Kun/Forum/Chickensgivemestrength1.jpg)

Your friendly neighborhood webcomic artist (http://www.smackjeeves.com/profile.php?id=60730) delivers.


The link to the comic is in that quote. You did read that thread, right? ;)

[The Glyphstone]

You think this is scary? Wait until someone makes a build that revolves around throwing chickens at the enemy.


Sounds like you're asking for a Drunken Master (proficiency in improvised weapons) Bloodstorm Blade (throw melee weapons and have them return to you). You could even do stuff like use the Mountain Hammer maneuvers; throw chickens at walls and completely ignore hardness.

I believe you are referring to the
Exalted Flaming Chicken Thrower (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7652.5;wap2)?


Also, I like Persistent Ocular Thunderhead. Sure, it's 1 damage/round, but it lasts for 24 hours. If they don't have Fast Healing or Electricity resistance, that's a maximum of 14,400 electrical damage, and a guaranteed average minimum of 720 damage assuming they only fail on a 1. Plus, it's darn annoying to have your own personal thundercloud zapping your head every six seconds.

[Civil War Man]

It's not as exploitable as other options in this thread, but DMM Persist Invisibility has excellent potential for shenanigans.

[The Glyphstone]

It's not as exploitable as other options in this thread, but DMM Persist Invisibility has excellent potential for shenanigans.

Greater Invisibility would. Persistent Invisibility still expires the first time you take a hostile action.

[Douglas]

Also, I like Persistent Ocular Thunderhead. Sure, it's 1 damage/round, but it lasts for 24 hours. If they don't have Fast Healing or Electricity resistance, that's a maximum of 14,400 electrical damage, and a guaranteed average minimum of 720 damage assuming they only fail on a 1. Plus, it's darn annoying to have your own personal thundercloud zapping your head every six seconds.
Persistent Ocular Fell Drain Thunderhead. Have fun with up to 14,400 negative levels, accumulating at an accelerating rate (up to the cap of 95% chance per round) due to an increasing penalty on the saves.

[Dark Kerman]

DMM Persisted Time Stop. That is all.

[The Glyphstone]

Persistent Ocular Fell Drain Thunderhead. Have fun with up to 14,400 negative levels, accumulating at an accelerating rate (up to the cap of 95% chance per round) due to an increasing penalty on the saves.

That kills faster, but it's not quite as entertaining.

[Chained Birds]

Also, I like Persistent Ocular Thunderhead. Sure, it's 1 damage/round, but it lasts for 24 hours. If they don't have Fast Healing or Electricity resistance, that's a maximum of 14,400 electrical damage, and a guaranteed average minimum of 720 damage assuming they only fail on a 1. Plus, it's darn annoying to have your own personal thundercloud zapping your head every six seconds.

I can just see a guy with a little cloud over his head going to a wizard sipping tea at a table and slamming a bunch of gold down in front of him shouting,

"Dispel this **** Thing!"
*Zap*
"Hmm, cleric troubles again? Arn't you immuned to electric based damage?" Says the wizard with a slightly raised eyebrow.
*Zap*
"Yes, but this thing has been zapping me all day long and it is driving me CRAZY!"

[Civil War Man]

Greater Invisibility would. Persistent Invisibility still expires the first time you take a hostile action.

True, though is there a domain with Greater Invisibility? Trickery gets normal invisibility, but not Greater.

Now if there were a Cleric domain that granted Greater Invisibility and Zone of Silence, that would make for some excellent shenanigans.


DMM Persisted Time Stop. That is all.

As someone pointed out in one of the "Things I'm no Longer Allowed to Do" threads, this doesn't necessarily work because the duration of Time Stop is relative. It is Instantaneous for everyone except the caster.

[Killer Angel]

DMM Persisted Time Stop. That is all.

Time Stop has a duration of instantaneous, it's only an apparent duration of 1d4 rounds.

edit: apparently, Civil War Man casted it and beated me... :smalltongue:

[Civil War Man]

edit: apparently, Civil War Man casted it and beated me... :smalltongue:

I had one casting of Quickened Post memorized today.

[Gullintanni]

Persistent Ocular Fell Drain Thunderhead. Have fun with up to 14,400 negative levels, accumulating at an accelerating rate (up to the cap of 95% chance per round) due to an increasing penalty on the saves.

Eh this wouldn't work...unless something about Thunderhead makes it work? But typically Fell Drain spells can only ever deal 1 negative level per casting per target.

That's why a Fell Drained magic missile only deals one negative level if 5 missiles are directed at the same target, but 5 negative levels if each missile targets a different target.

[dextercorvia]

Eh this wouldn't work...unless something about Thunderhead makes it work? But typically Fell Drain spells can only ever deal 1 negative level per casting per target.

That's why a Fell Drained magic missile only deals one negative level if 5 missiles are directed at the same target, but 5 negative levels if each missile targets a different target.

My memory is that it is per casting per target per round.

Edit: I think that is because of the wording "any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level." Meaning that if a spell deals damage more than once, a new negative level is assigned.

[The Glyphstone]

Eh this wouldn't work...unless something about Thunderhead makes it work? But typically Fell Drain spells can only ever deal 1 negative level per casting per target.

That's why a Fell Drained magic missile only deals one negative level if 5 missiles are directed at the same target, but 5 negative levels if each missile targets a different target.

Because Magic Missile deals all of its damage simultaneously. A spell that deals damage over multiple rounds will inflict a negative level to each of its targets each round.

[Douglas]

Eh this wouldn't work...unless something about Thunderhead makes it work? But typically Fell Drain spells can only ever deal 1 negative level per casting per target.

That's why a Fell Drained magic missile only deals one negative level if 5 missiles are directed at the same target, but 5 negative levels if each missile targets a different target.
The wording as I recall it is something like "when the spell deals damage". Five missiles all hitting at once is still just one occurrence of the spell dealing damage. Sure, it's using five separate projectiles to do it, but it's still just one event. Five zaps spread out over five rounds is five occurrences of the spell dealing damage.

[Gullintanni]

There are two lines in Fell Drain that deal with when a target gains negative levels.

The first:

Living foes damaged by your spell also gain a negative level.

The second:

Benefit: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that
any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative
level.

This is a state based check. Either:

A) The spell has dealt you damage, in which case you gain a negative level; or,
B) The spell hasn't dealt you damage, in which case, you take no negative levels.

For a spell that deals damage over the course of more than one round, if on round 1 you take damage that spell has dealt you damage. On round 2, no matter what happens, that spell has still already dealt you damage. The trigger for negative level gain has already been met, and you can not gain another negative level until a new Fell Drained spell is cast.

EDIT: I've reviewed some of the discussion about Fell Drain around the Playground. Most seems to come to the opposite conclusion I've come to, but based on the interaction of the language of the two statements above, I really can't see any way to interpret Fell Drain that it allows a single spell to deal a negative level more than once to the same target. Maybe I'm broken? :smallamused:

[Metahuman1]

Not sure if this one would work, but


take levels of Prestige Paladin and Persist the Paladin spell Find the Gap. Ignore Nat and worn Armor. While your persisting Divine power and Righteous Might of course.

[The Glyphstone]

Not sure if this one would work, but


take levels of Prestige Paladin and Persist the Paladin spell Find the Gap. Ignore Nat and worn Armor. While your persisting Divine power and Righteous Might of course.

That works, though it's simpler to persist Wraithstrike via Anyspell.

[Devmaar]

1. Take Animal Domain
2. Persist Shapechange
3. ???
4. Profit

[The Glyphstone]

1. Take Animal Domain
2. Persist Shapechange
3. ???
4. Profit

I think it's more like

1. Be high enough level to cast Shapechange
2. ???
3. Profit.

[Rossebay]

The link to the comic is in that quote. You did read that thread, right? ;)

Aha! I couldn't find it! I have no idea why.

Bahahaha. That's hilariously awesome.

[Venger]

Twice-Betrayer and/or Cheater.

You're welcome.

is that the "twice betrayer of shar" that has ocular spell? ocular spell is one of my favourite guilty pleasures.

what is the cheater though?

[gorfnab]

what is the cheater though?
Cheater of Mystra (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872770/new_build:_The_Cheater_of_Mystra)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

DMM: Persistent AMF with Initiate of Mystra is pretty good, especially with (Contingent) Starmantle in BoED. Opponent strikes you from inside your AMF, any weapon they use is considered nonmagical. Any weapon that hits you, including natural weapons, are turned into harmless starlight and destroyed with zero chance of resisting the effect.

[Venger]

DMM: Persistent AMF with Initiate of Mystra is pretty good, especially with (Contingent) Starmantle in BoED. Opponent strikes you from inside your AMF, any weapon they use is considered nonmagical. Any weapon that hits you, including natural weapons, are turned into harmless starlight and destroyed with zero chance of resisting the effect.

or you could just wear the starmantle cloak. same effect with much less effort once you can spare the 132k

[Hiro Protagonest]

or you could just wear the starmantle cloak. same effect with much less effort once you can spare the 132k

I'm not entirely sure about this, but as far as I can tell, it only works against non-magical weapons, and magic items (including the star mantle cloak) become non-magical in an AMF.

[Venger]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but as far as I can tell, it only works against non-magical weapons, and magic items (including the star mantle cloak) become non-magical in an AMF.

oh, you're right. I misspoke. I meant, this is the same (and better) as contingent starmantle. not that it's the same as AMF. sorry for the confusion. this protects you from weapons without burning spells/turns, but it's terribly expensive and not worth crafting (costs more xp than a wish? nope!)

[Devmaar]

Iirc, Cheater of Mystra doesn't work with DMM. Using Divine feats is a Su ability, so you can't DMM a spell after casting the AMF, and Initiate of Mystra only allows you to cast spells within one. Previously cast spells (persisted buffs) are still suppressed.


So though you could DMM persist an AMF as a defensive buff, you couldn't DMM persist anything else with it (unless you use Extraordinary Spell Aim)

[Venger]

Iirc, Cheater of Mystra doesn't work with DMM. Using Divine feats is a Su ability, so you can't DMM a spell after casting the AMF, and Initiate of Mystra only allows you to cast spells within one. Previously cast spells (persisted buffs) are still suppressed.


So though you could DMM persist an AMF as a defensive buff, you couldn't DMM persist anything else with it (unless you use Extraordinary Spell Aim)

or dip death's chosen 1 for a level after a temporary period of being undead (undo it with a resurrection) or just change into a living creature via PAO and abuse the shield of the master ability on yourself, no exorbitant spellcraft check like extraordinary spell aim and you can use it all the time, plus you don't burn a feat. cast all the magic you want inside your antimagic field!

[Kaeso]

read this very short thread for an absolutely hilarious use of DMM and a great comic showing the same.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219349

Great gods of war, that (greater) consumptive field spell is just so great.
I....I.....I'm speechless :smalleek: I've always doubted the strength of clerics, this just proves how wrong I was.

[ahenobarbi]

Iirc, Cheater of Mystra doesn't work with DMM. Using Divine feats is a Su ability, so you can't DMM a spell after casting the AMF, and Initiate of Mystra only allows you to cast spells within one. Previously cast spells (persisted buffs) are still suppressed.

Initiate of Mystra can cast within Dead Magic Zones and Antimagic Fields. [S]he just needs to make a caster level check. Feat description (http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/Initiate_of_Mystra_(Feat)) doesn't say if your magic works inside AMF/DMZ. Anyway here is mine:

- Be initiate of mystra
- Take feat that allows you to take 10 on CL checks
- Cast persisted antimagic field (lower your caster level by 2)
- Now for 24h you have AMF on you but you can cast (you make caster level check with difficulty 11 + your caster level - 2 so take 10)
- Go fight someone who relies on magic, magic items, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities (start with dimensional anchor so they won't run away once they realize what's going on).

[Chronos]

It's not as exploitable as other options in this thread, but DMM Persist Invisibility has excellent potential for shenanigans.Y'know, in 2nd edition, Invisibility had a normal duration, without any shenanigans, of 24 hours (it still ended when you attacked). About the only exploit it enabled was letting your wizard conserve precious spell slots (and they were a lot more precious back then) by turning the party thief invisible the night before it was needed.

[dextercorvia]

Y'know, in 2nd edition, Invisibility had a normal duration, without any shenanigans, of 24 hours (it still ended when you attacked). About the only exploit it enabled was letting your wizard conserve precious spell slots (and they were a lot more precious back then) by turning the party thief invisible the night before it was needed.

It made it genuinely useful for a scouting mission. Fly lasting for longer helped with that as well. Now we have to use Alter Self, and get labeled a metagaming munchkin because we know which humanoids can fly, etc. Of course, haste is more balanced now.

[Devmaar]

Initiate of Mystra can cast within Dead Magic Zones and Antimagic Fields. [S]he just needs to make a caster level check. Feat description (http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/Initiate_of_Mystra_(Feat)) doesn't say if your magic works inside AMF/DMZ. Anyway here is mine:

- Be initiate of mystra
- Take feat that allows you to take 10 on CL checks
- Cast persisted antimagic field (lower your caster level by 2)
- Now for 24h you have AMF on you but you can cast (you make caster level check with difficulty 11 + your caster level - 2 so take 10)
- Go fight someone who relies on magic, magic items, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities (start with dimensional anchor so they won't run away once they realize what's going on).

Yes, my point was just that if you have DMM Persisted AMF, you can't have any other DMM persisted buffs

[ahenobarbi]

Yes, my point was just that if you have DMM Persisted AMF, you can't have any other DMM persisted buffs

I failed spot check to notice that someone already posted what i did :smallannoyed: only with buffs on yourself...

By the way would it be possible to for example Dimension Door in AMF as initiate of Mystra?

[Venger]

Initiate of Mystra can cast within Dead Magic Zones and Antimagic Fields. [S]he just needs to make a caster level check. Feat description (http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/Initiate_of_Mystra_(Feat)) doesn't say if your magic works inside AMF/DMZ. Anyway here is mine:

- Be initiate of mystra
- Take feat that allows you to take 10 on CL checks
- Cast persisted antimagic field (lower your caster level by 2)
- Now for 24h you have AMF on you but you can cast (you make caster level check with difficulty 11 + your caster level - 2 so take 10)
- Go fight someone who relies on magic, magic items, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities (start with dimensional anchor so they won't run away once they realize what's going on).

the feat that lets you take 10 on caster level checks is called Arcane Mastery. the only prereq is casting arcane spells, making it a must for anyone who cares a lot about punching out spell resistance and the like.



It made it genuinely useful for a scouting mission. Fly lasting for longer helped with that as well. Now we have to use Alter Self, and get labeled a metagaming munchkin because we know which humanoids can fly, etc. Of course, haste is more balanced now.
2nd ed haste had the interesting if seldom mechanically relevant side effect of aging your character 1 year every time you used it. hardly a balancing factor for an extra standard action for the duration especially since most games don't keep track of all those minutae, but still, pretty cool flavourwise

[Douglas]

2nd ed haste had the interesting if seldom mechanically relevant side effect of aging your character 1 year every time you used it. hardly a balancing factor for an extra standard action for the duration especially since most games don't keep track of all those minutae, but still, pretty cool flavourwise
Seldom relevant? Not if all the references I've seen to having to make a system shock roll or die due to the sudden aging are true.

[Venger]

Seldom relevant? Not if all the references I've seen to having to make a system shock roll or die due to the sudden aging are true.

huh? haste's 1 year aging triggered system shock? I thought system shock was just for when you were getting res'd and you rolled to see the % of it sticking. it was keyed off your con somehow, if I recall correctly

[dextercorvia]

2nd ed haste had the interesting if seldom mechanically relevant side effect of aging your character 1 year every time you used it. hardly a balancing factor for an extra standard action for the duration especially since most games don't keep track of all those minutae, but still, pretty cool flavourwise

It wasn't an extra standard action, it was just an extra attack and increased move speed. (The extra standard action was in 3e.)

Age was important to casters in 2e, since that was how you paid for wishes, etc. Those were 5 years. It was all too easy to wish yourself to death.


Seldom relevant? Not if all the references I've seen to having to make a system shock roll or die due to the sudden aging are true.

I hated system shock, and IIRC, the groups I played with mainly ignored it, but I think that was the RAW of it.

[Venger]

It wasn't an extra standard action, it was just an extra attack and increased move speed. (The extra standard action was in 3e.)

Age was important to casters in 2e, since that was how you paid for wishes, etc. Those were 5 years. It was all too easy to wish yourself to death.



I hated system shock, and IIRC, the groups I played with mainly ignored it, but I think that was the RAW of it.

my mistake. wishes too? huh. that's sort of interesting. I guess it was to prevent wish abuse from people who were still mortal.

yeah, system shock sounds pretty lame.

[kardar233]

yeah, system shock sounds pretty lame.


"Look at you, playgrounder. A pathetic creature of meat and bone. Panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect immortal machine?"

Sorry, I had to.

OT, DMM Persist (Su) Delay Death is a favourite. Make sure to have anti-Disjunction preparations (Ring of Spell-Battle, prepared Disjunctions for counterspelling, contingent AMFs) up just in case.