Help me pick a class, please

[tcrudisi]

Current party and my beliefs concerning their optimization level. All of us are level 10 and new characters, so we haven't played a session yet:
Animist Shaman. High-op. Solid player.
? Battlemind. He hasn't created his character yet, but I'll be helping him because he's a brand new player, so I'll ensure that his character is above par. Probably will be medium-op, cancelled out by newbie mistakes.
? Paladin. He's focusing on healing. Unknown quantity as a player, but based on the brief descriptions I heard from him, I expect a below-average character.
Rageblood Barbarian. I'm guessing low-op based on the fact that he made Constitution, and not Dexterity, his secondary score. Also an unknown quantity as a player.

That leaves me. A few things spring to mind with this party. 1) It's very melee-heavy. 2) I'm very worried about our damage output with that very frail Barbarian in the mix and two defenders. 3) We have no controller.

So - that leaves me with some tough shoes to fill. I can't quite figure out what I want to do. A ranged controller would be wonderful with this party. So would an AoE blaster. The only thing I know for sure? Absolutely, positively no wizards. I like Druids, but I need to be primarily ranged and that's not my playstyle with druids. Invoker? Maybe. I could focus on damage and debuffing with an Invoker -- but every time I try to build one, something just seems a little bit ... off.

Gahh... I just don't know. Perhaps some fresh eyes will yield a new perspective on this and help me with my dilemma. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Kurald Galain]

Why no wizards?

If you want a good non-wizard controller, both Psion and Invoker are solid choices.
If you want a good non-wizard area blaster, try the Sorcerer.

[tcrudisi]

I just played a Wizard from 1 to 18 not too long ago. Also, I've grown to hate them since then due to all the support they get while some other awesome classes get nothing. So, I'm sort of boycotting them for a while. Not that WotC will ever know or anything.

I've actually played a Sorc before. Several times, actually. It's my favorite striker and I haven't played it in a couple of years. Plus, the idea of a Sorcerer who turns into a carp and flaps around on dry land is just hilarious (hengeyokai). My main concern with the aoe striker is: 1) showing up the barbarian, and 2) no control in the party.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, then I would not recommend an invoker, because they play very similar to wizards.

A party without a controller is viable, though. If you're afraid of upstaging the barbarian, keep your sorcerer similarly low-op. For example, you could play a wild sorc, which are not particularly reliable but quite funny to play.

[Rotho]

I can't recommend playing without a controller. Minions and large groups of enemies will walk all over you. Some kind of controller is better than none.

Seeker on its own is a joke. Seeker|Ranger hybrid? Actually a competent controller. Unfortunately, they don't get a lot of "good" AoEs, nor do they get any at-will way to apply it.

The binder is still terrible, so I don't recommend it. But I suppose you could play a warlock who focuses on hard control over damage. They get some very strong powers in that regard, stuff that would make actual wizards jealous. And if you play a human, you can steal an at-will close blast power from the binder.

If that's still not your thing, play a psion. I don't like psionics very much, and they haven't seen support since Psionic Power, but they're still good at what they do. Plenty of ranged stuff on them.

If you want a blaster, go sorcerer.

[Emongnome777]

I second psion. Not a great deal of support out there, but plenty to build a fun character. I've recently started playing a mid-paragon telepath psion and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. Warlock may be another good choice, like mentioned.

What about a ranged leader? A laser cleric could be useful, or even the ranged warlord build. A controller isn't required and a second leader never hurts, though it may make for a slower, albeit less deadly combat.

Question: Why did you mention that the barbarian is very frail? It's one of the toughest strikers (especially with high Con) and it shouldn't be attacked very often with two defenders in the party. Just curious.

[Rotho]

I second psion. Not a great deal of support out there, but plenty to build a fun character. I've recently started playing a mid-paragon telepath psion and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. Warlock may be another good choice, like mentioned.

What about a ranged leader? A laser cleric could be useful, or even the ranged warlord build. A controller isn't required and a second leader never hurts, though it may make for a slower, albeit less deadly combat.

Question: Why did you mention that the barbarian is very frail? It's one of the toughest strikers (especially with high Con) and it shouldn't be attacked very often with two defenders in the party. Just curious.
I would have suggested a ranged cleric too, actually. They really do make great secondary controllers, even if some of it's just single target. I just figured that an at-will AoE was important so I didn't suggest it.

The issue with the barbarian is that if he focuses constitution, then he neglects dexterity and winds up with a low AC. Not something you want if you plan to be in the thick of things. And with the nerf to hide expertise, there's no reasonable fix to it unless he grabs an elven chain shirt (overpriced) or MCs cleric (which requires an uncomfortable investment in wisdom).

If I might make a suggestion to give the pally: take the new and improved Devout Protector expertise, if at all possible. Flat +1 shield bonus to AC for allies, no limitations. Would help out the barbarian quite a bit, for one. And since nobody else since seems to have a shield, it's a free +1 AC for everyone.

[Kurald Galain]

Seeker|Ranger hybrid? Actually a competent controller. Unfortunately, they don't get a lot of "good" AoEs, nor do they get any at-will way to apply it.
The fact that they don't get a lot of good AoEs or at-wills means they're actually not a competent controller.

On the other hand, warlocks make good controllers (even if they mostly do single-target control) and don't play like a wizard much.

And psions get cool "move enemies around because I say so" powers.

[Rotho]

The fact that they don't get a lot of good AoEs or at-wills means they're actually not a competent controller.
I meant at-will AoEs. The at-wills they get are actually pretty nice, since they can be used in place of an RBA and can apply a little "splash" control (-2 penalty to attack for target and all adjacent enemies). That said, yes, they're not very good at dealing with large mobs, so they fail as controllers in that regard. But this isn't really the place to discuss something like that.

[Tengu_temp]

Psions are good if you don't mind sacrificing fun for efficiency. Spamming augmented Dishearten the whole encounter is not exactly my definition of interesting gameplay.

[Kurald Galain]

Psions are good if you don't mind sacrificing fun for efficiency. Spamming augmented Dishearten the whole encounter is not exactly my definition of interesting gameplay.

Just because Dishearten is probably the best Psion power doesn't mean that all other Psion powers suck. The OP mentioned a reasonably low-op group, after all.

[Emongnome777]

Psions are good if you don't mind sacrificing fun for efficiency. Spamming augmented Dishearten the whole encounter is not exactly my definition of interesting gameplay.

What? That's silly. You can always spam augmented Mind Thrust! :smallwink:

But seriously, you make a point and many people wouldn't enjoy that. IMO, though, those powers can still be quite fun even if that's all you do (which shouldn't be, they have some fun dailies as well). At later levels, that means the target(s) either rarely hit anything (Dishearten) or will always be hit (Mind Thrust). Just watch for how often those penalties turn a hit into a miss (and vice versa), then be gracious is accepting the accolades that follow. :smallsmile:

[Surrealistik]

Another vote for Psion, especially shaper psion. All the fun things you can do with its shaped consciousness almost outweighs the monotony of attacking with the same damn 3 attacks (Dishearten, Mind Thrust and Psychic Anomaly or Dimensional Scramble) over and over again.

[Aron Times]

You can play a telepath psion, focused on mind control powers. As early as level 3, with Betrayal, you can get enemies to gank each other for your benefit. It is especially fun against brutes, who tend to have low Will defenses, turning your psion into a secondary striker.

[Surrealistik]

I find Psychic Anomaly substantially better and less situational than Betrayal for a Will targeting power; party friendly AoE + Orb Expertise enhanced forced movement slide 3, augmentable to AoE daze > slide 1 + two rolls to hit + two enemies required to be close together. The augment substantially improves the power, but PA's augment is stronger, and it still comes out on top. Besides, Mind Thrust is king for single target.

Granted, Betrayal is more entertaining/thematic and all that, and has built in scaling, but in terms of raw, consistent performance, gotta go with PA.

[Aron Times]

Betrayal (level 3) is the earliest I will be able to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv2cBsA1f_0 :smallcool:

Fun > CharOp.

[Tengu_temp]

Just because Dishearten is probably the best Psion power doesn't mean that all other Psion powers suck. The OP mentioned a reasonably low-op group, after all.

Even if you don't do just that, you still have much fewer powers as a character using the augment mechanics than a normal character does at the same level. And that's just boring.

[tcrudisi]

Wow, I go to bed and wake up with a lot of suggestions. Thanks guys.

Warlock: This is certainly one that I didn't consider. Just thinking about it for a moment: I like it. It'll allow me to up our damage output, get some strong minion-sweeping, and do some good single-target control. Also, I would have a strong MBA which is useful for an enabling shaman and otherwise have ranged powers. Wow, the more I think about this, the more I like it.

Psion: Tengu has stated the crux of the problem of Psions for me. They just don't get as many options, they tend to spam the same default at-will over and over (which at least with other classes you go through encounter powers first), and it is annoying to keep up with your available power points. I say all this and yet the Battlemind is my favorite defender. Go figure. But, I will check out the Psion again because it has been a long time since I've played one.

Thanks for the input! In the few minutes it has taken me to type this up, the idea of the Warlock just keeps growing on me and growing on me. I'm going to go create one now and see if I can tinker it to just how I like it.

[MeeposFire]

Remember that if you want some at will choices you can be human (this even opens up the binder at wills if you like them).

[Drglenn]

You could play a cunning bard, most of your powers will only be single target but enemies will hate you and you can move around your allies too. If you go for an Eladrin and take the option that lets you use wizard implements (why wouldn't you seeing as your alternative is longsword or bow proficiency which you get as a bard anyway) or multiclass to a class that can use orbs you can pick up orb expertise which improves your forced movement (which AFAIK includes majestic word and virtue of cunning).

Another option is Druid in which case I would recommend the Protector subclass from Heroes of the Feywild. You give up wild shape and your daily power is locked into summon natural ally (both of which you can get back with the same feat, except your level 1 daily, but SNA is a good power anyway) and the extra at-will power to gain cantrip-equivalents and an encounter power based on your druid type.

[MeeposFire]

You could play a cunning bard, most of your powers will only be single target but enemies will hate you and you can move around your allies too. If you go for an Eladrin and take the option that lets you use wizard implements (why wouldn't you seeing as your alternative is longsword or bow proficiency which you get as a bard anyway) or multiclass to a class that can use orbs you can pick up orb expertise which improves your forced movement (which AFAIK includes majestic word and virtue of cunning).

Another option is Druid in which case I would recommend the Protector subclass from Heroes of the Feywild. You give up wild shape (which you can get back with a feat) and your daily power is locked into summon natural ally (again, after level 1 you can take a feat to get the choice back) to gain cantrip-equivalents and an encounter power based on your druid type.

There is also the new white lotus duelist expertise feat that can give you orb proficiency.

[tcrudisi]

You could play a cunning bard

This was actually what I was wanting to do back when I thought I was going to be the Leader. I had a wonderful idea for a character that only took powers that did one of two things: forced movement on my allies (useful at level 11 when I get 2 of them to take Agile Opportunist, so I end up being a great enabler as I move them around every round), and granting 18-20 crit range. Not the most overpowered character, but it looked like a lot of fun.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work so well with the current party as-is. The party just has too many weaknesses that it really needs to overcome and our strengths aren't strong enough to just ignore those weaknesses.

[surfarcher]

So - that leaves me with some tough shoes to fill. I can't quite figure out what I want to do. A ranged controller would be wonderful with this party. So would an AoE blaster. The only thing I know for sure? Absolutely, positively no wizards. I like Druids, but I need to be primarily ranged and that's not my playstyle with druids. Invoker? Maybe. I could focus on damage and debuffing with an Invoker -- but every time I try to build one, something just seems a little bit ... off.

Gahh... I just don't know. Perhaps some fresh eyes will yield a new perspective on this and help me with my dilemma. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

AoE blasters are a ball :D If you 1-18'd a Wiz and are used to strikers this may be right up your alley. My wife doesn't like complex playing characters and we did her a sorc which she absolutely loves. Obviously not hi-op but there you have it.

[LaZodiac]

As someone who's never done any OP building, at all, I do have a bit of a suggestion.

If you wanted to be a ranged striker, maybe be an Executioner. Additionaly, they come with some control aspects when it comes to their Bola, which knocks enemies prone, and various poisons to play with. It helps that it is also a fun class to play as.

[Burley]

Well, whatever you pick, I suggest you train in Thievery. Your party seems to lack that ability. I'd suggest a Thunder Sorc. While I've played characters that are more effective, I had the most fun with them. You can drop some mad damage, with secondary controller role powers.
Also, for the Battlemind character, point out the Iron Guardian paragon path. Iron Defense is the ultimate new player power: easy to understand, gratifying, and useful.

[WitchSlayer]

Aww, no psion? But they can turn people into MISSILES.

[Surrealistik]

Aww, no psion? But they can turn people into MISSILES.

Which is lots of fun, but only once per day sadly. :\

[Vknight]

They can also anchor people in place so if they move there skin, flesh, and bones rip and tear.
Also Geass

But Tcrudisi my friend you style I'd suggest a Invoker with lots of mulit targeting powers so you spend the fight hitting everything well the rest of the party focuses fire your attacks help soften and also take out minions

[Surrealistik]

TBH, the less my character has in common with Lelouch Sue the better.