Order of the Bow Initiate

[Cwymbran-San]

Hi all,

i was looking for a prestige class for my archery-ranger and believe this PrC to be my best option. I found no other option (class-wise at least) for increasing my ranged combat damage. So here is to my fellow playgrounders:

How would you beef up your ranged combat damage, or is the initiate indeed the best choice? :smallsmile:

[Ancient Mage]

If I were to play an archer, I'd definitely go with Order of the Bow Initiate. The Darkwood Stalker is for elves who hate orcs, a lot, only, so its out. The Arcane Archer isn't really that great compared to +5d8 arrow damage. There are not a lot of ranged PrC's, and I think the best is Order of the Bow.

-Ancient Mage

[motoko's ghost]

Try getting the energy bow(i think that's what its name is), it lets you do a sort of power attack with the bow.
Try checking out the archery handbook, either on BG(if its still around) or on minmaxboards(if it's been posted over), it should have everything you want to know

[sonofzeal]

OotBI, while appealing at first glance, is a bit of a trap. The Precise Shot thingywhoosit for all those tasty tasty d8's is a standard action, meaning you only get it once a round and you can't be rapidshotting or fullattacking for glorious pwnage... and with that limitation, the extra damage just isn't enough. And the rest of the class isn't that great without that. It's justifiable on a Scout chassis, since standard action attacks work great with Skirmish.

Unfortunately, it's still about the best you'll find for a Ranger. Warlocks effectively are archers and often do it better, and Soulbows are just awesome, but for bows and arrows there isn't much.

[Killer Angel]

Unfortunately, it's still about the best you'll find for a Ranger.

For an archer ranger, yes.
For a ranger in general, my favourite still remains the Horizon Walker.

[Greenish]

[QUOTE=Cwymbran-San;12551882How would you beef up your ranged combat damage, or is the initiate indeed the best choice? :smallsmile:[/QUOTE]Grabbing some fighter levels for the weapon mastery line (and other feats) is usually the best non-caster/non-manifester/non-martial adept option for archery. Deepwood Sniper from Masters of the Wild is just about the only decent archery PrC I can think of, and it's 3.0.

Just staying ranger is way better than going OotBI, since ranger spells are better than nothing. Quite a bit better than nothing, given right sources.

[TurtleKing]

Note that if you want to be a sniper as per the D&D rules that PrC helps if not Rogue. Also it could help if the target has some damage reduction if you aren't using the Energy Bow or the force enhancement on your bow. Shoot even for a Elf Rogue that could snipe with it turns about half of their precision damage to one dice higher.

[sonofzeal]

Actually, it's probably not too late to dip Scout, grab Swift Hunter, and then pick up Improved Skirmish. After THAT, just stick Ranger because you're getting dual-progression.

[Gnaeus]

Depending on sources in play, it might not even help archer rangers much. Rangers get a lot of good spells in SPC that duplicate stuff in OBI. A wand of arrowmind, for example, is cheap and better than an obi level. If: 1. Spell compendium is in play, 2. Swift action wands are allowed per rules compendium, and 3 wand chambers are available, I would stick with ranger instead.

[Darrin]

How would you beef up your ranged combat damage, or is the initiate indeed the best choice? :smallsmile:

Order of the Bow Initiate is a horrible, horrible, horrible way to increase your combat damage, because it locks you into one-attack-per-round. If you have no other option, ask your DM if you can use the 3.0 version, which gets Ranged Sneak Attack. This can be applied to multiple attacks, and is more appropriate for a sniper-type build.

Other Archery-based PrCs that aren't a huge pile of stinking fail:

Peerless Archer (Silver Marches, gets Power Shot at 3rd)
Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild)
Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone)

You said "Ranger", though, so... any particular reason you aren't considering a Swift Hunter build? If you don't want to take any Scout levels, you can actually qualify via Highland Stalker, although it takes a a lot longer to get it up and running.

The #1 way to increase your damage output for archery is the Splitting enhancement from Champions of Ruin. However, as a +3 enhancement, it's really expensive and outside the budget of most archers, particularly at lower levels.

Some magic items that can help:

Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser (3000 GP, MIC p. 64). Another great way to add +1d6 energy damage to your ranged attacks without spending a lot of gold. I recommend the Acid Assault, since fire, cold, and sonic damage can be added with spells, and electricity can be added with Bracers of Lightning.

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC p. 206). Adds the shock property to all your attacks, including ranged. Although somewhat expensive, in most cases it's probably cheaper to buy these bracers than trying to add another +1 property to an existing magic weapon. Biggest downside is it takes a swift action to activate, which could be a problem if you need those swift actions for something else, like Travel Devotion.

Quiver of Energy (15000 GP, MIC p. 172). Adds 1d6 acid/cold/electricity/fire damage to 20 arrows.

The cheapest way to increase your damage is probably adding a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) to your bow and add some spells via wands and/or UMD:

Instant of Power (Forge of War p. 114, Brd/Dru/Rgr 1). Immediate action, +4 enhancement bonus on an ally's next attack, save, or damage roll.

Hunter's Eye (PHBII p. 114, Rgr 2). Adds sneak attack damage, but you still have to catch the target flat-footed or deny their Dex bonus, and unfortunately your attrocious caster level means the most you can hope for is +1d6 or +2d6.

Darkflame Arrow (Champions of Ruin p. 30, Asn/Rgr 3). Adds 2d6 damage and burns for an additional 2 rounds. There are several other "arrow" spells in Champions of Ruin, but other than arrowsplit (the spell version of the Splitting enhancement) this has the best damage output.

Blade of Blood (PHBII p. 103, Asn/Blk/Clr/Dsk/Sor/Wiz 1). Swift action, adds +1d6 damage next time weapon strikes a target, or you can sacrifice 5 HP to do +3d6 damage. While the spell doesn't explicitly say "melee only", it does say the spell fizzles if you lose contact with the weapon, so you may need to check with the DM if this will work with bows/arrows.

Burning Sword (Spell Compendium p. 41, Sor/Wis 2). Flaming burst weapon 1 min/level.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn p. 95, Clr/Dru/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 frost damage 1 round/level.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium p. 195, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 sonic damage 1 min/level.

Energy Surge, Lesser (PHBII p. 112, Sor/Wiz 2). Swift action (Wand Chamber! +100 GP, Dungeonscape p. 34), add +1d6 energy damage (acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic) for 1 round.

[Incriptus]

While it's always sub optimal I'm still pretty sure you can have some fun. The main thing is to find a means of making your move action capable of improving your over-all effeciency.

My last idea on it was to place the prestige class on top of the standard swift hunter.

Scout 1: Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot(Human Bonus Feat); Skirmish(1d6)
Scout 1/Ranger 1: Favored Enemy Arcanist (source complete mage)
Scout 1/Ranger 2: Weapon Focus[Long Bow]/Rapid Shot(Ranger Bonus Feat)
Scout 2/Ranger 2:
Scout 3/Ranger 2:
Scout 4/Ranger 2: Swift Hunter/Improved Skirmish(Scout Bonus Feat); Skirmish(2d6 or 4d6 if you move 20 feet);
Scout 4/Ranger 2/Order 1: Ranged Precision(1d8)
Scout 4/Ranger 2/Order 2:
Scout 4/Ranger 2/Order 3: True Believer; Ranged Precision(2d8) --- True Believer is feat, it is used to power relics, in this case a Raptor Arrow from the MIC


The idea is to be able to move 20 feet, get the automatic bane from the Raptor Arrow, and then the Ranged Precision. 4d6 + 2d6 + xd8 from the single shot. Still inferior to an optimized full round attack, but if you're the type who wants to play that single shot archer with a respectable amount of damage it has some potential. Mine was an NPC who was designed to harry enemy spell casters [yes they can easily over come it, they can easilty over come anything, but only if they know it is coming]. Move, ready action to disrupt spell casting, & shoot.

In reality the only time to use a standard attack is when you're doing something that prevents a full round action. That thing used to be moving, however with a varity of means of now being able to move and still do a full attack you really have no excuse [other than non-op, fun times].

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As has been said multiple times, Order of the Bow Initiate only adds its damage when you spend a standard action to use that ability. It can't be used with a full attack, or with rapid shot, or with manyshot, you can't even use it with shot on the run. You can fire a single shot for that extra damage, and then spend a move-action. It's pretty worthless for anything but shoot-and-hide-check, and there are far better options even for that.

If you've got nothing but Ranger levels already, then you're actually doing great. Pick up a few levels of Scout from Complete Adventurer, and get the feats Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel and Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), and then just take more Ranger levels. You can move and then use Greater Manyshot and you'll apply all of your Skirmish damage to every arrow. No archery prestige class can make that a better character than it already is. Note that Order of the Bow Initiate's damage cannot be used with greater manyshot, each ability requires its own standard action to activate.

[Daftendirekt]

Actually, it's probably not too late to dip Scout, grab Swift Hunter, and then pick up Improved Skirmish. After THAT, just stick Ranger because you're getting dual-progression.

This. This a lot.

[nedz]

Having played a Ranger/OBI archer (not my idea - it was a cohort) I can say that the 5 levels of OBI I had were useless. 5 More levels of Ranger would have been far better. I almost never used used the Precision Damage, Rapid Shot for machine-gunning is far more effective.
My view at the time was that Scout/OBI would work far better.
Swift Hunter is better still though Scout does get Camoflage (8th) and Blindsense (10th) sooner.

[Manateee]

With PHB2 and SpC, the Ranger spell list already gives them better versions of everything the 3.5 OotBI gets. The 3.0 one is still kind of neat though.

I'm partial to a 4-level dip into Peerless Archer from Silver Marches. In those levels, it packs 2d6 sneak attack, ranged power attack (along with full BA), concealment/cover reduction (this gets a bit wonky in a 3.5 or PF conversion) and the ability to create its own magic arrows (circumstantial, but gravy). The class goes on to increase SA damage and concealment reduction, but at that point, you're probably better off getting extra abilities from Swift Hunter, 3.0 OotBI, or something like Barbarian or Warblade.

[Big Fau]

Having played a Ranger/OBI archer (not my idea - it was a cohort) I can say that the 5 levels of OBI I had were useless. 5 More levels of Ranger would have been far better. I almost never used used the Precision Damage, Rapid Shot for machine-gunning is far more effective.
My view at the time was that Scout/OBI would work far better.
Swift Hunter is better still though Scout does get Camoflage (8th) and Blindsense (10th) sooner.

I'll throw my lot in behind this. The Precision damage looks nice, but the fact is you only get 1 shot per use of the ability. Miss, and you just wasted your Standard action for the round.

[Circle of Life]

The best WotC options have already been provided, so I'll go ahead and plug my Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12556015), which is intended to be exactly what you seem to be looking for. It's homebrew, so it might be disallowed on principle, and it gives archery a significant boost in power, so it might also be disallowed. If, however, your DM feels like allowing it, you might be interested in retconning your levels into that class.

Worth a look, anyway. Otherwise, I'd third (fourth?) Swift Hunter.

[Incriptus]

P.S. I also like the Justice of Weald & Woe from Champion of Ruin.

[Cwymbran-San]

I'll throw my lot in behind this. The Precision damage looks nice, but the fact is you only get 1 shot per use of the ability. Miss, and you just wasted your Standard action for the round.
That was my thought as well. A pity the strikes from ToB are not available for ranged combat, otherwise i would have dipped into swordsage and made my attacks ranged touch via Emerald Razor.
I guess, as we are a group playing without homebrew, i will add a few levels of scout for shooting on the move and using multishot in combination with Hunter's Mercy for full-round attacks, that should do it. Comparable damage output, but more versatility. Thank you all!

[sonofzeal]

That was my thought as well. A pity the strikes from ToB are not available for ranged combat, otherwise i would have dipped into swordsage and made my attacks ranged touch via Emerald Razor.
I guess, as we are a group playing without homebrew, i will add a few levels of scout for shooting on the move and using multishot in combination with Hunter's Mercy for full-round attacks, that should do it. Comparable damage output, but more versatility. Thank you all!
You can still dip Psychic Warrior and get Fell Shot almost as easily...

[Greenish]

That was my thought as well. A pity the strikes from ToB are not available for ranged combat, otherwise i would have dipped into swordsage and made my attacks ranged touch via Emerald Razor.Emerald Razor is a standard action. The PrC's fancy shot is a standard action. You couldn't combine them even if Emerald Razor worked for ranged attacks.

[Cwymbran-San]

Emerald Razor is a standard action. The PrC's fancy shot is a standard action. You couldn't combine them even if Emerald Razor worked for ranged attacks.

Damn you! Damn you for being right by virtue of me being a complete noob :smallbiggrin: I demand a new feat, namely "Martial Swiftness" which lets me execute a maneuver as a swift action. And at range. Thank you.

[Tvtyrant]

Alright, so with the splitting property on a OotBI you get 48 damage a shot, which is similar to the damage output of a core TWF Ranger. Yeah, not great.