[3.5, Almost Core Only] Blowing Up Small Castles

[Golden Ladybug]

Hello Playground, how are you? I come to you with a plea for help, since I don't know whether or not what I'm planning is actually possible with the resources available to me.

Okay, this is a bit of an ask, but I'm wondering if there is a way for me to get enough non-magical explosives, for a cost not exceeding 10,000gp and using nothing but materials in the core rulebooks (DMG I, PHB I and MMI) or the Stronghold Builder's Guide, to be able to blow up a Small Castle (Two Stories high, about 110ftx110ft).

Yeah, I know this a weirdly specific ask, but just bare with me for now :smallbiggrin:

[motoko's ghost]

non-magical explosives? I dont know.
At first glance I'd say earthquake or a hurricane force control winds spell, though.

races of the dragon has some kobold explosives that might help, but cant recall specifics.

[Killer Angel]

Any chance are you joining the "Keep the Keep"? :smalltongue:

(edit: quick check. It appears so, but on the wiz. side?)

[Golden Ladybug]

I am indeed joining Keep the Keep, and I'm having a bastard of a time setting up Horde withstanding defenses with only 10 hours to do it in.

And doesn't it worry you that I'm asking about Keep destroying explosives :smallbiggrin:

If there isn't a core option for doing this though, I'll have to think of something else. Or beg for Kobold bombs, I suppose...

[Telonius]

If you're looking for magic, Sympathetic Vibration. Scrolls cost 2400 gp, 2d10 damage per round to the structure.

[Golden Ladybug]

If only I could; that would be perfect for what I had in mind, but I am restricted to the core rulebooks and the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter too much; with only 10 hours, and 8 of those I need to spend asleep to refresh my spells, I don't think I'd be able to set it up.

[kardar233]

If you can convince your DM that Immovable rods are immobile relative to the center of the Earth, just find the castle and stand East of it, then press the button.

[Telonius]

I suppose you could cap a Siege Ram (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#siegeEngines) with adamantine for 4000gp. (1000gp for the ram plus 3000 for the adamantine). That would let the weapon ignore hardness up to 20. 3d8 plus strength of 10 people carrying it; should bring down an iron gate in a round or two at most.

EDIT: Any chance for undermining the walls?

[Killer Angel]

Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter too much; with only 10 hours, and 8 of those I need to spend asleep to refresh my spells, I don't think I'd be able to set it up.

Why?
The set up for the battle, is "At the beginning of the game the Wizard is in the Keep, with all spells refreshed, aware of the impending attack. The horde is one marching day away from the Keep"
Did something change and escapes me?

anyway,

I am restricted to the core rulebooks and the Stronghold Builder's Guide.


Going on core magic items, usable by non magic users and for the price you listed, you should be prepared to face something like a ring of the ram.
On a related note: do you think that a Feather Token - Tree, throwed at the base of the walls, can work as a "exploding ram"? if the answer is yes, equip. the army with a dozen of those.

[Gandariel]

[QUOTE=Killer Angel;12552832]Why?
The set up for the battle, is "At the beginning of the game the Wizard is in the Keep, with all spells refreshed, aware of the impending attack. The horde is one marching day away from the Keep"
Did something change and escapes me?
QUOTE]

Actually yes.. cause with the previous setting, (i.e. 24 hours before arrival)
Wizard could have cast all of his spells three times AND have recharged before the army arrived.. and i thought that would be too much help for the Wizard.

This would be the first game, though, so i guess if one party is overpowered stuff will be changed ^^

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you can convince your DM that Immovable rods are immobile relative to the center of the Earth, just find the castle and stand East of it, then press the button.

That would make them absolutely useless, and extremely dangerous. Plus, the OP said non-magical, otherwise I would just suggest Blast Disks.

[hydraa]

DMG 145
there is gunpowder (15 lbs for 250 gp)
and gunpowder bombs (1 lbs for 150 gp 2d6 fire damage)
RotD 122
Ditherbombs (wrym -> 1000 gp 1d6X1d8 acid ignoring stone hardness) they are alchemical

[Golden Ladybug]

-Battering Rams-

Well, I guess...but I'm on the defending side, so I don't really want to knock down my own walls. I just want enough Explosives to wipe the place off the map. I'm not going to say why :smallamused:


DMG 145
there is gunpowder (15 lbs for 250 gp)
and gunpowder bombs (1 lbs for 150 gp 2d6 fire damage)
RotD 122
Ditherbombs (wrym -> 1000 gp 1d6X1d8 acid ignoring stone hardness) they are alchemical

Now that is interesting. I'm going to buy a LOT of Gunpowder. I can't quite remember, but are there special rules for damaging Objects by fire? I'm sure there are, but I can quite think of them at the moment...

EDIT: Yep, I knew it, Fire only does half damage to Objects, as well as the whole Hardness thing. I would have to spend all of my Money on Gunpowder to be sure of destroying the Keep. I guess blowing up the Keep if the Enemy looks like they're going to win just isn't practical :smallfrown:

[Seharvepernfan]

EDIT: Yep, I knew it, Fire only does half damage to Objects, as well as the whole Hardness thing. I would have to spend all of my Money on Gunpowder to be sure of destroying the Keep. I guess blowing up the Keep if the Enemy looks like they're going to win just isn't practical :smallfrown:

That's kinda retarded. Bombs don't do just "fire" damage, they do force/physical/something-like-that damage too, hell, I'd say mostly. I have smokepowder in my games (faerun gunpowder) so that castles and the like can be blown up without magic.

Dropping a grenade next to a wall won't do much, but if you can contain the force of the explosion, like, in the nook of a wall, or under teh castle in a narrow tunnel, which is covered before ignition, then it should do a lot more damage than listed.

[Coidzor]

Why?
The set up for the battle, is "At the beginning of the game the Wizard is in the Keep, with all spells refreshed, aware of the impending attack. The horde is one marching day away from the Keep"
Did something change and escapes me?


Actually yes.. cause with the previous setting, (i.e. 24 hours before arrival)
Wizard could have cast all of his spells three times AND have recharged before the army arrived.. and i thought that would be too much help for the Wizard.

...Um... Why would you include that houserule and then change things so that you couldn't take advantage of it?

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just not houserule it so that wizards could refresh spells more than once in a 24 hour period?

[ericgrau]

That's kinda retarded. Bombs don't do just "fire" damage, they do force/physical/something-like-that damage too, hell, I'd say mostly. I have smokepowder in my games (faerun gunpowder) so that castles and the like can be blown up without magic.

Dropping a grenade next to a wall won't do much, but if you can contain the force of the explosion, like, in the nook of a wall, or under teh castle in a narrow tunnel, which is covered before ignition, then it should do a lot more damage than listed.
I think you answered your own complaint there in that gunpowder needs an enclosed space to exert a force, otherwise it will simply expand into open space with little pressure. Actually all fire works this way, so it's not any different than any other fire except that gunpowder can potentially pack more into a smaller space since it doesn't need air.

[Chronos]

If only I could; that would be perfect for what I had in mind, but I am restricted to the core rulebooks and the Stronghold Builder's Guide.Assuming that was responding to the previous post, Sympathetic Vibration is from the Player's Handbook. It's a bard-only spell, though, so you'd need either a bard or UMD.

[Golden Ladybug]

Assuming that was responding to the previous post, Sympathetic Vibration is from the Player's Handbook. It's a bard-only spell, though, so you'd need either a bard or UMD.

well, there is that, and I just proved that I don't know my Bard spells well enough :smallamused:

I'll see if I can pull off a DC20 UMD check...

[Red_Dog]

*skimmed thru thread, didn't find this option, only posting this since people brought up Sympathetic Vibration*

How about Disintegrate? 6th level spell of Wizard, and its greater at turning large objects into piles of Dust ^^. If the party is unable to cast one, maybe bribing a wizard/cleric with 10k you have for this endeavor?

You might not be able to blow it up... but it will sure as hell be damaged.

Just a though ^^

[Golden Ladybug]

I did consider Disintergrate, but I don't have enough level 6 spells at my disposal to take down a whole Castle. My cunning, cunning plot requires me to be able to completely destroy a castle in a short amount of time.

I feel the urge to cackle diabolically...

[Rubik]

There are plenty of MAGICAL ways of doing this, such as doing the books-full-of-explosive-runes-followed-by-a-low-CL-dispel thing, or someone with a bag of holding full of shrink item'd boulders (or acid, or whatever) that can fly above the keep and dump them all out before calling out the command word for all of them.

Or you could just hire the services of a very large dragon with a ML 7 tattoo of Expansion (some people consider the XPH core, though it isn't really) that you could have on retainer to crush the place when you're done with it.

Or just use Summon Monster to get a burrowing critter to sap the walls. Or Polymorph into something that'll eat/burrow through/dissolve the walls.

Or you could Planar Bind any number of things (such as efreet) with the ability to hew through the walls like a frenzied berzerker through butter.

There's also Stone to Flesh or Stone to Mud.

Or a mounted ubercharger barbarian that can RAAAAAAAAGE!!! and smash through the walls himself. This one...isn't quite so magical.

[Coidzor]

Now there's a thought. How much lava does it take to convince the adjacent stone to melt too?

If one doesn't want to go the shrink item route, planar binding can get you a number of magma mephits which can turn into a 3' wide by 6" deep mobile circular puddle of lava.

Edit: Of course, a bit of lava only does 2d6 a round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects), and stone walls generally have a hardness of 8 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls) and objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#energyAttacks) divide fire energy damage in half before applying the damage to the hardness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness) in most cases (lava requiring DM adjudication, I imagine).

So that's why no one ever brings up that they can have their own lava whenever. :smallsigh:

Then again, the segment under the lava could be argued to get the damage from being totally immersed as opposed to the entire 10'x10'x10' section, which would bump it up to a more respectable (20d6)/2 a round for a smaller area at a time, or one could get a fair number of them concentrated in an area...

[Red_Dog]

Or a mounted ubercharger barbarian that can RAAAAAAAAGE!!! and smash through the walls himself. This one...isn't quite so magical.

Following Rubik's logic on this one => Hire a squad of lvl6 dungeon crusher fighters.... For 10k, you can probably get a damn battalion = P

Give them adamantium Mauls (if you can afford it) for Style points ^^.

According to SRD (this isn't core unfortunately, still just MMV), it costs 30gp per day to Hire a freaking WAR TROLL(!) merc. 75gp if he has 4 levels of Fighter (all you need really). If we are "reasonable" and say that the price is 200gp for 4lvl dungeon crusher War Troll => 50 Dungeon Crashers... that are equipped, and regenerate so are VERY unlikely to drop dead too much(so you won't have too much issues after the battle ^^).

Of course I am jesting on this one ^^ however, even if you can find 10 of them, I doubt any castle stands a chance ^^ (unless its flying or something lol)

[Killer Angel]

I did consider Disintergrate, but I don't have enough level 6 spells at my disposal to take down a whole Castle. My cunning, cunning plot requires me to be able to completely destroy a castle in a short amount of time.

I feel the urge to cackle diabolically...

mmm... this is directly related to the Keep the Keep: are you planning a destruction ala "erfworld - book one", in case the horde enter in with 50 units and is going to stay for a sufficient amount of time to win the scenario?
'coz would I be the DM, I would call this a tie (if not a victory for the horde): in a way or another, the wizard didn't succeed in defending the castle.

[imneuromancer]

Too bad you don't have time. Shrink Item + Fly + Metamagic Rod of Extend would probably do the trick as a 5th level wizard. You would need a few days to shrink enough huge blocks of stone to make it worth your while, though....

[Chess435]

What about wands of Explosive Runes given to a particularly sneaky character? :smallbiggrin:

[hydraa]

Another potential method is from ELH using Augmented Acid.

Crafting acid would get you 3333 vials of acid (1000 purchase) for 3333 d6
Crafting augmented acid would get you 600 vials of acid (purchase 200) for 2d6 damage each.
Crafting 2x augemented acid would be 300 vials (purchase 100) at 3d6 each

Acid would do normal damage to objects so hardness is ignored, so this should net you on average 11665.5 acid damage (4200 for augmented, 3150 for 2x augmented)

[Eurus]

Get an adamantine dagger and spend 9.5 of your 10 hours chipping away at the walls to leave them with one HP each? :smalltongue:

[The_Jackal]

Do you need to completely blow it up? Digging a tunnel under the walls, then firing the tunnel supports with pitch is the historically accurate way of destroying castle fortifications.

[hydraa]

Another out of core item:
Stonebreak acid from Arms and Equimpent twice the cost of acid but does 3d10+2d10 to stone (2 rounds)



Or perhaps hire a army of kobold miners. 4 of them can work on a 5 foot block and get a dc20 (25 -5 for granite check with a take 10, this would have them remove 2 cubes in 8 hrs (or perhaps 1 cube in 4 hours)

84 squares (1st story), would need 336 hired npcs , a laborer is 1sp (x3 for short term hire) {though it is a profession check so might be a bit more base rate but at 5 sp would cost you 168 gold.

(a extra 1008 gold is needed if they insist you by them picks to use)

Kobolds are core, the profession (miner) excavation rate is in Race of the Dragon

[hydraa]

Also a rough attempt at the amount of damage to destroy the castle.

The castle is about 30 Stronghold spaces per level. With wood and stone at 50% that is about 9000 hps for the 1st level to destroy it (after hardness for items that need to bypass hardness)

The second level if all wood is 1800 hps

[Fyermind]

Just a note, blowing up a few choice parts of the ground floor will cause the whole thing to collapse. This means you really need to deal roughly 2000 damage quickly ignoring hardness. I'm with the guy who suggested acid flasks for this one. Find a way to rig them beforehand so they will all go off at once.

[absolmorph]

Explosive runes on sections of the wall. With a few castings (each section of wall has 15 HP and 8 hardness; I'm not sure if the "object takes full damage" clause of explosive runes gets around hardness), you can destroy decent-sized sections of the wall with a well-placed area dispel (which you choose to fail).

[Rubik]

What about the Shatter spell? There's also Transmute Rock to Mud, or Stone to Flesh + Flesh to Salt.

[motoko's ghost]

Try using shrink item on a lot of boulders(all set to the same command word) fly up high above the castle and drop like 20-or so at the same time, If I'm remembering the falling damage rules correctly they'll do about 20d6 each or if you actually do all 20 about 400d6 dmg, which should cave in the roof, damaging all the walls before breaking through the floor, setting off a cascading failure.

If not just do it again.:smalltongue:

EDIT: whoops saw someone already mentioned this, dang:smallfrown:

[Rubik]

Try using shrink item on a lot of boulders(all set to the same command word) fly up high above the castle and drop like 20-or so at the same time, If I'm remembering the falling damage rules correctly they'll do about 20d6 each or if you actually do all 20 about 400d6 dmg, which should cave in the roof, damaging all the walls before breaking through the floor, setting off a cascading failure.

If not just do it again.:smalltongue:Hmm. This seems familiar.

Oh, right.


There are plenty of MAGICAL ways of doing this, such as doing the books-full-of-explosive-runes-followed-by-a-low-CL-dispel thing, or someone with a bag of holding full of shrink item'd boulders (or acid, or whatever) that can fly above the keep and dump them all out before calling out the command word for all of them.:smallamused:

[motoko's ghost]

EDIT NINJA'd:smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just a note, blowing up a few choice parts of the ground floor will cause the whole thing to collapse. This means you really need to deal roughly 2000 damage quickly ignoring hardness. I'm with the guy who suggested acid flasks for this one. Find a way to rig them beforehand so they will all go off at once.

Acid doesn't ignore hardness.

[Rubik]

Acid doesn't ignore hardness.Psi-sonic does, though.

Psions make great sappers.

[hydraa]

Acid doesn't ignore hardness.


Hardness
Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s hit points

Energy Attacks
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Am i reading this wrong that acid and sonic ignore hardness since most creatures do not have hardness (cold, fire and elec specifically mention hardness)?

[absolmorph]

Am i reading this wrong that acid and sonic ignore hardness since most creatures do not have hardness (cold, fire and elec specifically mention hardness)?
Does it say Sonic and Acid damage ignore hardness? No.
So, they don't ignore hardness, since there is not specific rule stating that they do.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Am i reading this wrong that acid and sonic ignore hardness since most creatures do not have hardness (cold, fire and elec specifically mention hardness)?

That just means they deal full damage before applying hardness. Otherwise it wouldn't need to be spelled out for psionic powers dealing sonic damage.

[Seharvepernfan]

So flasks of acid do nothing to locks. Good to know.